Great Western Coffee Shop

All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: SandTEngineer on May 31, 2018, 08:57:40



Title: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 31, 2018, 08:57:40
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44311928   ::) ;D

Quote
Thameslink compares poor service to Poundland chocolate

On Wednesday, more than 400 Thameslink trains were cancelled.

A rail firm that compared its poor service to chocolate from Poundland has been threatened with legal action by the discount chain.

Thameslink has apologised after making the comment in reply to a passenger who was angry over train cancellations.

In response, Poundland retail director Austin Cooke said it had "no right to use our name to describe poor service".

It comes after more than 450 Govia Thameslink Railway trains were either cancelled or ran late on Wednesday.

Thameslink had responded to a tweet from a passenger, called Kevin, who posted a picture of a departure board showing train cancellations.

In response, Thameslink replied: "Very sorry Kevin. Appreciate at the moment the service is less Ferrero Rocher and more Poundland cooking chocolate."

It prompted Mr Cooke to tweet Charles Horton, chief executive of Thameslink's parent firm Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR), stating that Poundland served eight million shoppers last week and has a "pretty good idea about what great customer service is".

Mr Cooke added: "But if we ever fall short, perhaps we'll describe ourselves as a bit ThamesLink.

"If you don't want to hear from our extremely twitchy legal team, we suggest you remove your tweet."

GTR later apologised to Mr Cooke and deleted their earlier tweet.

GTR has been dogged by disrupted services since the publication of new timetables on 20 May.

Its poor performance, along with that of Northern rail, prompted Transport Secretary Chris Grayling on Wednesday to say the "rail industry has collectively failed" passengers.

GTR said it expected disruption to ease "over the coming month", while Northern said it had commissioned a report to "ensure lessons are learned".

Mr Grayling said: "The way timetabling is done has to change."

GTR runs Thameslink, Southern, Great Northern and the Gatwick Express, while Northern runs services across North of England from Newcastle to Nottingham and in Greater Manchester, Yorkshire, Cumbria and Merseyside.

Many services across the country suffered "Meltdown Monday" on 21 May when the new timetables came into force.

As an aside that quote from our beloved Secretary of State for Transport was a bit underhanded.  Now let me think,  who is responsible for our railways...... :P

Quote
Its poor performance, along with that of Northern rail, prompted Transport Secretary Chris Grayling on Wednesday to say the "rail industry has collectively failed" passengers.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Lee on May 31, 2018, 09:58:24
Personally, I think that Grayling points the gun in the right direction in one of the related articles - http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-44299902

Quote
The transport secretary also criticised Network Rail, saying it "cannot cope" with the workload, and its performance was "simply unacceptable".

Well Mr Grayling, perhaps it's about time you earned the respect of those that have suffered for years as a result of that, and did something about it.

Alternatively, go and visit Olga Taylor, and she'll set you straight.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: ChrisB on May 31, 2018, 10:22:31
He has threatened to do something about this by restricting the number of changes any TOC can make in any timetable change! So rather than give NR the funds to cope, he is basically doing the travelling public a disservice by not allowing a TOC to run all the services it wants to! (and instead would have to introduce all their changes over several timetables.

This is the first complete screw up that the NR staff have produced....coped pretty well up to now generally, so they can do it....


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: simonw on May 31, 2018, 11:14:53
I think many people are happy to blame NR for all rail issues, but if we are going to be fair, we must blame

  • DfT
  • NR
  • Train Franchise Companies

equally.

The debacle of GW electrification has nothing to do with GWR, but DfT and NR.

The debacle of schedule planning has nothing to do with DfT, but NR and the Train companies

Perhaps NR should be split up and franchised with the primary train company at the same time? This would lead all new franchises being combined to service and infrastructure improvements over 5/7/10 years.

Could make some of the franchise bids very interesting.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: ChrisB on May 31, 2018, 11:29:24
The subject of this thread is GTR, not GWR.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 31, 2018, 12:53:01
To be fair, there is one obvious similarity.

Both chocolate & the railways go into meltdown when the sun comes out.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 31, 2018, 13:26:49
Quite. If I had to rely on the chocolate teapot that is GTR I'm not sure I'd particularly care whether the teapot in question was made from Ferrero Rocher or Poundland chocolate...


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Electric train on May 31, 2018, 17:16:56
The dynamics of the railways must be remembered

NR - a Government owned company ……………………. which reports to its share holder …………………….. the DfT

GTR - a management company who's fee is paid by ………………………. the DfT Note GTR does not make a profit from collecting fares, from section 8 payments etc this all goes direct to DfT

The puppet master is to blame


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 31, 2018, 17:38:49
The dynamics of the railways must be remembered

NR - a Government owned company ……………………. which reports to its share holder …………………….. the DfT

GTR - a management company who's fee is paid by ………………………. the DfT Note GTR does not make a profit from collecting fares, from section 8 payments etc this all goes direct to DfT

The puppet master is to blame

Who is responsible for recruiting drivers for GTR, and for how long have they had to prepare for the new timetable?


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: PhilWakely on June 01, 2018, 08:35:42
An excellent response on the Poundland Twitter account.......... (https://twitter.com/Poundland/status/1001855234635915265?s=04)


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2018, 09:28:17
An excellent response on the Poundland Twitter account.......... (https://twitter.com/Poundland/status/1001855234635915265?s=04)

Indeed, an excellent response, I particularly liked the bit about "If we ever fall short, perhaps we will describe ourselves as a bit Thameslink"

More seriously, when I lived in London, Thameslink were truly awful and by far the worst of any TOC that I experienced regularly. They made FGW look good by comparison.
At the time they were operated by first group, but don't seem to have got any better under new management.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Tim on June 01, 2018, 09:32:41


Who is responsible for recruiting drivers for GTR, and for how long have they had to prepare for the new timetable?

IMHO, the blame here lies not with companies but individual managers who are simply not up to the job.  In BR days there were successes and failures and that wasn't due to the ownership structure but whether the people in charge of the project were good at their job or not.  The problem with the railway seems to be that it has too many places for incompetents to hide.  Both the private and public sectors have ways of winkling those incompetents out.  Trouble is the private sector performance management techniques are not used because the companies concerned are in theory private and the private sector mechanism for weeding out bad managers (their company going bust) doesn't happen either.  


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2018, 09:33:24
Quite. If I had to rely on the chocolate teapot that is GTR I'm not sure I'd particularly care whether the teapot in question was made from Ferrero Rocher or Poundland chocolate...

Of course the quality of the chocolate from which a chocolate teapot is made matters. A chocolate teapot may be almost useless as a container for hot tea, but it is still good to eat if made from decent chocolate.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: grahame on June 01, 2018, 09:35:25
Of course the quality of the chocolate from which a chocolate teapot is made matters. A chocolate teapot may be almost useless as a container for hot tea, but it is still good to eat if made from decent chocolate.

Hmmm ... depends who you are.   A recent survey in our household revealed that only one of the four of us eats the stuff ... it makes the rest of us ill.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: broadgage on June 01, 2018, 14:38:53
Of course the quality of the chocolate from which a chocolate teapot is made matters. A chocolate teapot may be almost useless as a container for hot tea, but it is still good to eat if made from decent chocolate.

Hmmm ... depends who you are.   A recent survey in our household revealed that only one of the four of us eats the stuff ... it makes the rest of us ill.

To avoid putting the health of your family at risk, please pack all chocolate securely and send it carriage paid to me.
For a small charge I will safely dispose of it for you.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Electric train on June 01, 2018, 22:24:17
The dynamics of the railways must be remembered

NR - a Government owned company ……………………. which reports to its share holder …………………….. the DfT

GTR - a management company who's fee is paid by ………………………. the DfT Note GTR does not make a profit from collecting fares, from section 8 payments etc this all goes direct to DfT

The puppet master is to blame

Who is responsible for recruiting drivers for GTR, and for how long have they had to prepare for the new timetable?


The broad concept of how Thameslink would operate was laid down way back in 2006, it was amended by DfT / NR in around 2011 this was descoping some destinations mainly in the South.


Since GTR inception they would have known what the service pattern was going to be.  I do know that GTR initially thought they could continue to change train crew at Blackfriars as First Capital Connect had done until it was pointed out that Blackfriars was in the 24 tph and automatic train operation area and there would not be enough time to change crew.


I do feel GTR senior managers have not had it easy, they were given the unenviable task of combining 4 train operating franchise into one, I am almost certain they were not given the choice about the "Guards" on trains that dispute has possibly drained the senior managers and diverted a lot of their time


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: bobm on June 03, 2018, 07:39:58
Of course the quality of the chocolate from which a chocolate teapot is made matters. A chocolate teapot may be almost useless as a container for hot tea, but it is still good to eat if made from decent chocolate.

Hmmm ... depends who you are.   A recent survey in our household revealed that only one of the four of us eats the stuff ... it makes the rest of us ill.

To avoid putting the health of your family at risk, please pack all chocolate securely and send it carriage paid to me.
For a small charge I will safely dispose of it for you.

Here is one to get you started broadgage

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/pull6.jpg)


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Lee on June 04, 2018, 18:24:48
Grayling statement just in - https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-timetabling


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Lee on June 04, 2018, 18:38:37
Rail timetables: Chris Grayling announces compensation and inquiry - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-44360017


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: grahame on June 04, 2018, 20:31:03
Grayling statement just in - https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-timetabling

I need help understanding some of that

Quote
It is for reasons like this that I am committed to unifying the operations of track and trains where appropriate to ensure we do not encounter problems like this in the future.

Can someone provide the proof that the linkage actually will ensure no such probles in the future

Quote
Officials in my department are working around the clock to oversee this process.

Anyone care to join me at 3 a.m. in Horseferry Road to check the lights are on?

Quote
So today (4 June 2018) I am also announcing that work has started to set up an inquiry by the independent Office of Rail and Road (ORR), chaired by Stephen Glaister, into the May timetable implementation.

It is necessary to have a full enquiry.

Quote
In parallel to the inquiry my department will assess whether GTR and Northern met their contractual obligations in the planning and delivery of this timetable change.

My department will be assessing whether these issues could have been reasonably foreseen and different action taken to prevent the high levels of disruption passengers are experiencing.

Have I missed something here, or do we have an ORR enquiry set up and a few sentences later have much of its enquiry work being duplicated with the angry spotlight on two of the players?

Quote
There clearly have been major failures that have led to the situation we are in today. I am clear that the industry must and will be held to account for this.

So it's already been concluded it's the industry that has had major failures rather that any problems with the framework in which is has to operate.  Is't that prejudging the outcme of the enquiry?


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: rogerw on June 04, 2018, 21:01:59
One of the major failures being on the part of NR of which Grayling is the ultimate boss.  Are the DfT officials working around the clock to identify and destroy any evidence against them? :-\ ::)


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Electric train on June 04, 2018, 21:23:55
Grayling statement just in - https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/rail-timetabling

I need help understanding some of that

Quote
It is for reasons like this that I am committed to unifying the operations of track and trains where appropriate to ensure we do not encounter problems like this in the future.

Can someone provide the proof that the linkage actually will ensure no such probles in the future

It used to work 25 years ago .............. it was called British Rail a vertically integrated organisation which according to the Government in 1993 was a bad thing what was needed was competition to drive down costs especally public funding and improve reliability and passenger satisfaction ........................... let me think ................. this was a Conservative Government and now this Government believes a vertically integrated organisation is the answer  ???


This Railwayman is so happy his carree is close to an end and will retire before too much carninage is done .



Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Cava on June 06, 2018, 13:23:19
Why can't they go back to the old timetable?


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Witham Bobby on June 06, 2018, 16:32:00
Why can't they go back to the old timetable?

I'd like an answer to that, too.  Might it not be an option, whilst they sort-out whatever resource problems there are which prevent the new timetable working properly.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: broadgage on June 06, 2018, 16:59:29
Why can't they go back to the old timetable?

Because it has melted in the sun, as does chocolate. (poundland or other)


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: stuving on June 06, 2018, 17:14:13
Why can't they go back to the old timetable?

I'd like an answer to that, too.  Might it not be an option, whilst they sort-out whatever resource problems there are which prevent the new timetable working properly.


I'm sure that's been asked, by everyone from above Grayling down to the latest office intern. It seems that so far they have all been convinced by the answer, which I guess is some combination of:
  • That would take a significant time, due to the amount of replanning of staff rosters etc. involved.
  • As a result, there would still be cancellations in the short term.
  • In almost all cases, there would be fewer trains and peak seats than the emergency timetable (or at least that's what we have been told).
  • It would take a lot of effort in parts of the network not suffering new timetable problems just to find out how to do this and what the reduction in services would be.
  • It would delay getting the new timetable to work.

Another way of answering is to say that, whatever people think, the affected TOCs are more than halfway to solving the problems, apart from the ones that can't be solved at all in the short term (e.g. finishing new infrastructure).


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Cava on June 06, 2018, 21:58:08
Cheers stuving, I found that very informative.


Title: Re: Train Service Compared With Chocolate
Post by: Adelante_CCT on June 07, 2018, 20:18:53
One other reason of course is that other TOCs such as SWR, SouthEastern and East Midland Trains have had to alter timetables to fit around the new TSGN timetable. Cant really go back to the old timetable without severly disrupting those TOCs as well.



This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net