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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture in the United Kingdom => Topic started by: SandTEngineer on June 01, 2018, 10:14:08



Title: Thameslink
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 01, 2018, 10:14:08
Thought I would start a new topic (bit like the new May 2018 timetable) here.

How about this for starters? https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-politics-of-thameslinks-troubles/

...and the blame game has started.... http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-44299902

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Chris Grayling says rail industry 'has failed passengers' 30 May 2018

The transport secretary says the "rail industry has collectively failed" passengers after timetable changes caused chaos across the network.

Chris Grayling wrote to MPs over the "wholly unsatisfactory" service on Govia Thameslink Railway and Northern.

GTR said it expected disruption to ease "over the coming month" and Northern said it has commissioned a report to "ensure lessons are learned".

Mr Grayling said: "The way timetabling is done has to change."

The transport secretary also criticised Network Rail, saying it "cannot cope" with the workload, and its performance was "simply unacceptable".

He added: "We were aware there might be some disruption in the early stages of any new timetable change but the scale of the problem has far outstripped any expectation."

He said he was now in "regular contact" with Network Rail and rail companies to deal with the issues quickly.

But a Surrey rail user group earlier blamed the Department for Transport (DfT) for rail problems.

GTR runs Thameslink, Southern, Great Northern and the Gatwick Express, while Northern runs services across North of England from Newcastle to Nottingham and in Greater Manchester, Yorkshire, Cumbria and Merseyside.

Trains are frequently crowded at stations such as Harpenden, while other services are cancelled.
Stephen Trigg, of the Reigate, Redhill and District Rail Users Association, said: "Thameslink is just failing all over the place.

"This morning six out of 12 trains have disappeared from the timetable. That's before any cancellations. How do people get to work?"

Ros Southward, who set up the Hitchin Rail Commuters Group, said there was constant "stress and disruption" on the Great Northern line.

"[I'm] beyond words, I don't get it because this is supposed to have been planned for a couple of years," she said.

.....and the SoSfT is getting a little bit nervous.

Quote
Seems the Network Rail’s System Operator division at Milton Keynes are being made the scapegoat for this disaster as Grayling has written to MP's saying so!

I am writing to you concerning the wholly unsatisfactory levels of disruption on rail services following the huge timetable change last week.

I am frustrated that what should have been a good news story for passengers, with the introduction of new services, new routes and expanded capacity has had such a poor start.

The industry collectively has failed the passengers it serves.

A combination of delayed Network Rail infrastructure works and reduced time to plan a modified timetable meant that the new timetable was finalised much too late to permit adequate logistical planning for the timetable changes.

Network Rail’s System Operator division is responsible for taking all planned timetables and making sure that the plans for the whole network are workable and do not create conflicts between different types of service.

If they are unable to do so to the expected timescales, it causes chaos for the train companies.

A change on this scale requires reworking of train crew schedules, train deployment and a whole range of other complex issues that affect the running of what is a very congested service.

We were aware that there might be some disruption in the early days of any new timetable change of this size, but the scale of the problem has far outstripped any expectation.

I am determined both that the problems are dealt with as quickly as possible, and that this is not repeated in the future.

We have been in regular contact with the leadership of Network Rail and GTR in the last few days, and Jo Johnson and I are continuing to monitor the situation closely.

We are speaking to those involved on a daily basis and we have insisted that both organisations put whatever resource they need to into resolving the situation, and in making sure that there is proper leadership of the recovery effort.

We will be holding a meeting for affected colleagues as soon as the recess is over, when I hope we will be able to give you more encouraging news about the recovery effort.

I have also asked both organisations to organise a briefing meeting for MPs next week so they can explain the detail of what has gone wrong and how it is being solved.

I am also clear that the way timetabling is done has to change.

It is obvious that Network Rail’s current timetabling system simply cannot cope with the volume of work that it has to complete, and I have asked both the current leadership and the incoming Chief Executive, Andrew Haines, to ensure that this issue is addressed as a priority.

Network Rail’s current performance on this is simply unacceptable.

Until this has been done, I will insist on a gradual approach to timetable change wherever possible and not the significant changes that we have seen this month.

Once these problems are resolved, we will have a much better service for passengers.

That is small comfort to them when things are not working as they should, but once we are through this difficult period we will have a better railway.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/712161/sos-letter-to-mps-gtr.pdf


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: ChrisB on June 01, 2018, 10:26:35
Any election straight after Brexit would seriously concentrate on that outcome, and commuters hell on the railways would become insignificant to voters taking their ire out on the Government for not getting it right....far more important to the vast majority of voters that the relatively few ,000s in Thameslink commuterland, and thus will only have a very small impact in a very few UK-as-a-whole constituencies....

If the election isn't until 2022, ways will have been found by then to sort out the problem & it will already be fading in people's memories....and Brexit outcome may be disasterous for the UK economy by then, such that it will still be in most peoples minds as the number 1 voting intention


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: JayMac on June 01, 2018, 17:18:05
Failing Grayling is throwing Network Rail, which to all intents and purposes is state controlled, under a bus. He's blaming them for the Northern debacle too. Nice boss to have.  ::)

What's his agenda with Network Rail? His department have to share  blame. Its the DfT who specified these basket case franchises.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Timmer on June 01, 2018, 19:27:05
It’s only because Northern haven’t defaulted on their payments that they are still running this doomed franchise. Only a matter of time now...probably stalling for time to give DOR time to get ready to take over another failure of a franchise. Gosh I bet First wish someone would take loss making TPE off them right now.

Back to Grayling. Nothing impresses me with his running of a department which in my view isn’t fit for purpose. They can blame who they like but all roads or should that be rails lead to the Dft’s door.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: ellendune on June 01, 2018, 19:27:13
Failing Grayling is throwing Network Rail, which to all intents and purposes is state controlled, under a bus. He's blaming them for the Northern debacle too. Nice boss to have.  ::)

What's his agenda with Network Rail? His department have to share  blame. Its the DfT who specified these basket case franchises.

As the American Philosopher Noam Chomsky (https://genius.com/Noam-chomsky-the-state-corporate-complex-a-threat-to-freedom-and-survival-annotated#) Said

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Like when Thatcher wanted to defund the railroads, first thing to do is defund them, then they don't work and people get angry and they want a change. You say okay, privatize them and then they get worse. In that case the government had to step in and rescue it.

And

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That’s the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Electric train on June 01, 2018, 22:12:45
The Thameslink timetable from an NR point is working reasonably well, there are a few NR teething problem; however the biggest issue is the lack of preparedness of GTR.

GTR has not managed to get all of its Drive route knowledge done, eg the drivers from the East Coast / Anglia have not completed the Southern routes and vis versa.  Other things like the Kings Lyn Drivers don't sign class 700 or the Thameslink routes.


I noted that in the media there are a number of organisations / politicians (many Labour Party based) who a calling for Grayling's head, he has been called before the Select Committee I doubt they will accept him blaming NR and the TOCs without him conceding is Department had made mistakes


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on June 02, 2018, 11:19:29
Without making any comment or judgement on Grayling's strengths and weaknesses as a politician it is clear that all the problems of the last few days, weeks and months are the direct consequences of decisions made, or even decisions which were not made, months or years earlier - long before Grayling was appointed SoS.

The solutions which need to be found are managerial, not political. If fault is to be found it is because since taking over the Strategic Rail Authority the DfT has knowingly or unknowingly supported the creation of a cadre of administrators for the railway industry rather than a cadre of managers.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 02, 2018, 16:24:58
Failing Grayling is throwing Network Rail, which to all intents and purposes is state controlled, under a bus. He's blaming them for the Northern debacle too. Nice boss to have.  ::)

What's his agenda with Network Rail? His department have to share  blame. Its the DfT who specified these basket case franchises.

As the American Philosopher Noam Chomsky (https://genius.com/Noam-chomsky-the-state-corporate-complex-a-threat-to-freedom-and-survival-annotated#) Said

Quote
Like when Thatcher wanted to defund the railroads, first thing to do is defund them, then they don't work and people get angry and they want a change. You say okay, privatize them and then they get worse. In that case the government had to step in and rescue it.

And

Quote
That’s the standard technique of privatization: defund, make sure things don’t work, people get angry, you hand it over to private capital.

As far as Economics goes, Chomsky is a great Professor of anti capitalist Philosophy  ::)


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: bradshaw on June 02, 2018, 17:37:24

This is an excellent explanation of the Thameslink situation

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicadas-take-flight-explaining-the-may-timetable-changes/


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Surrey 455 on June 03, 2018, 00:33:49
One oddity I have noticed is that some Southern services are being described in the journey planners and on the station departure boards as being Thameslink services. I have noticed this for Southern trains running through Epsom. It may possibly be occurring elsewhere.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 03, 2018, 10:14:29

This is an excellent explanation of the Thameslink situation

https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/the-cicadas-take-flight-explaining-the-may-timetable-changes/
Perhaps the moderators could move that post to the THAMESLINK thread I started, as its nothing to do with chocolate.... ::)


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Timmer on June 15, 2018, 12:37:13
BBC South Today's Transport correspondent Paul Clifton reporting that the chief executive of Govia Thameslink Railway, Charles Horton, has resigned.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 15, 2018, 12:48:19
They should renationalise the railways straight away. That's the only way to stop this game of political football. Now then which is the emoji for 'yes I am being ironic?'


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Timmer on June 15, 2018, 12:52:10
He's not the only one who should be considering their position.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on June 15, 2018, 13:58:54
As a mere passenger, but one familiar with some of the Thameslink core route, I've thought (ever since I found out about it) that squeezing 24tph through the likes of Farringdon was going to be a challenge. And even more so, as those trains are converging through that potential bottleneck from several different routes (if I have understood correctly)?


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: stuving on June 15, 2018, 15:42:06
As a mere passenger, but one familiar with some of the Thameslink core route, I've thought (ever since I found out about it) that squeezing 24tph through the likes of Farringdon was going to be a challenge. And even more so, as those trains are converging through that potential bottleneck from several different routes (if I have understood correctly)?

This is not a new nor a very demanding capacity level for two tracks. Even in 1965, in "A railway Plan for London", BR and LT gave their assumed capacities for a two-track railway as 24 tph for uniform outer suburban stock. Modern trains ought to have better performance, though less than the underground - given as 40 tph in 1965; I wonder where they achieve that now.

Merging several lines into a single track pair happens on the approach to most London Terminals, and at both sides of the central tunnel in an S-Bahn or RER system. At Waterloo, the slow lines have paths for 20 tph (vs. the fast Lines for 30), but they have to demultiplex into terminal platforms via flat junctions, rather than the simpler run through to (initially) grade-separated diverging junctions.

If you can't run the rest of your railway accurately to timetable, you will need a way of coping with that: e.g. somewhere for briefly holding trains and an acceptance that trains will run through the centre is whatever order they turn up. I reckon this is all doable, but how well it works will depend on getting a lot of details right consistently, and especially the people issues of loading and unloading enough people quickly enough. You may be sceptical about the ability of NR and one or more TOCs to do that in practice, of course.

How well any of these other networks do I 'm not sure, apart from the Paris RER tunnel between Gare du Nord and Chatelet. This has to cope with 32 tph, though that's misleading for two reasons. The first is that it's just the tunnel between two four-platform stations, with no two-platform stations in it, and the second it that it never manages that many tph. There have been plans for a while to relieve it, the latest of which was to add one more track!


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: stuving on June 15, 2018, 16:59:27
How well any of these other networks do I 'm not sure, apart from the Paris RER tunnel between Gare du Nord and Chatelet. This has to cope with 32 tph, though that's misleading for two reasons. The first is that it's just the tunnel between two four-platform stations, with no two-platform stations in it, and the second it that it never manages that many tph. There have been plans for a while to relieve it, the latest of which was to add one more track!

I've found numbers for the RER A, which doesn't share a central tunnel. It has three west ends and two east ones, which is less that Thameslink (which also runs further out than a classic RER). It's all controlled by old-style signalling, not ATO or CBTC.

Last December, the peak "cadence" was reduced from 30 tph to 26 tph, because the load/unload times have been going up and the previous timings were no longer possible. Actually, they have spread the peak too, replacing 1 hour of 30 tph within 1h30 of 24 tph with 2h30 of 26 tph. I don't have reports of how that's been going, even on non-strike days*.

* Line A is all RATP (track and train crew) except the part branching off north at Nanterre, which is all SNCF and shares its track with St Lazare services. Line B, on the other hand, is run jointly, with RATP and SNCF drivers doing the whole route. I'm sure that makes sense to someone...


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on June 15, 2018, 17:16:41
Appreciate your analysis Stuving, you've also called out a couple of the practicalities I was thinking of here....

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an acceptance that trains will run through the centre in whatever order they turn up

and

Quote
how well it works will depend on getting a lot of details right consistently

Indeed!


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: martyjon on June 15, 2018, 17:18:22
He's not the only one who should be considering their position.

BBC Radio 4 just had an item on this and the reporter concluded the report by saying "and many customers are saying to me that Chris Grayling ought to be the next one to follow him along the plank".


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: a-driver on June 15, 2018, 21:20:58
I think Charles Horton has either quit before he was pushed or been made a scapegoat with a lovely golden handshake.

NR and the DfT are not totally blameless with the situation on GTR, yet it’s the M.D. of the private TOC that pays the price. This is just an attempt to appease the passenger.  Give it some time and the M.D. merry go round will be in full swing!


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: JayMac on June 15, 2018, 22:00:50
(http://i67.tinypic.com/35bv4lc.jpg)


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: grahame on June 16, 2018, 02:02:46
I think Charles Horton has either quit before he was pushed or been made a scapegoat with a lovely golden handshake.

From a personal viewpoint, he could also be so darned fed up that he's happy to take the opportunity to move on / turn over to something different/


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: martyjon on June 16, 2018, 05:11:14
I think Charles Horton has either quit before he was pushed or been made a scapegoat with a lovely golden handshake.

NR and the DfT are not totally blameless with the situation on GTR, yet it’s the M.D. of the private TOC that pays the price. This is just an attempt to appease the passenger.  Give it some time and the M.D. merry go round will be in full swing!


Things will "improve" when that Mark Hopwood fellow hears there's a vacancy for a "top dog" over at Thameslink and applies successfully, then we might see an improvement on GWR, who knows, the 17:whatsit to Hereford might even get past Oxford occasionally.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Timmer on June 16, 2018, 07:08:10
I think Charles Horton has either quit before he was pushed or been made a scapegoat with a lovely golden handshake.

NR and the DfT are not totally blameless with the situation on GTR, yet it’s the M.D. of the private TOC that pays the price. This is just an attempt to appease the passenger.  Give it some time and the M.D. merry go round will be in full swing!
I’m sure he didn’t leave empty handed and there are others who should be considering their positions too.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Electric train on June 16, 2018, 09:12:30
They should renationalise the railways straight away. That's the only way to stop this game of political football. Now then which is the emoji for 'yes I am being ironic?'

In effect GTR is a "Nationalised" company, GTR is not a franchise but a management company ie GTR are paid a fee by the DfT to run the service; all revenue, schedule 8 payments etc go direct to DfT.

BBC South Today's Transport correspondent Paul Clifton reporting that the chief executive of Govia Thameslink Railway, Charles Horton, has resigned.

I do get the feeling at times DfT aka the Government forced the hand of GTR to "break" the Guards on trains issue once and for all on Southern however this possibly lead to GTR senior managers and executive spend time resolving the strikes on this issue than on managing the integration of GN into Thameslink and ensuring they had greater preparedness for the new time table.

As far as I am aware NR delivered access to London Bridge for route training on time in Jan 18, also the route via London Bridge is only a small portion of the overall route knowledge and even the diversion via Loughborough Jcn / Elephant & Castle is a valid route to learn as it remains as a diversion route 


As a mere passenger, but one familiar with some of the Thameslink core route, I've thought (ever since I found out about it) that squeezing 24tph through the likes of Farringdon was going to be a challenge. And even more so, as those trains are converging through that potential bottleneck from several different routes (if I have understood correctly)?



The Thameslink Core was designed for a higher through put 28 tph.  Above 18 to 20 tph can only be by the use of Automatic Train Operation between Dock Jcn (MML), Belle Isle (ECML) and Blackfriars (Southeastern)

The station dwell times are those of the Tube.






Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on June 16, 2018, 11:26:35
General feedback seems to be that it should all work fine through the central core then.

Quote
The station dwell times are those of the Tube.

I pass through Farringdon (on the Tube) on a fairly regular basis, and the neighbouring Thameslink trains are pretty much always stationary when I arrive and depart.

Isn't this where they switch from 3rd rail to OHLE (and vice versa)?


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: paul7575 on June 16, 2018, 13:05:20
Isn't this where they switch from 3rd rail to OHLE (and vice versa)?
Normally Farringdon is the southbound change to DC, but City Thameslink is the location for northbound change to AC.  However both tracks of the section between the stations are dual electrified, this allows for various solutions in the event of a problem, eg 8 car northbound failures can still be binned into Smithfield sidings.

Effectively it is arranged so that failure to changeover can still be dealt with before a train reaches a point of no return.

Paul


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Electric train on June 16, 2018, 15:44:00
Isn't this where they switch from 3rd rail to OHLE (and vice versa)?
Normally Farringdon is the southbound change to DC, but City Thameslink is the location for northbound change to AC.  However both tracks of the section between the stations are dual electrified, this allows for various solutions in the event of a problem, eg 8 car northbound failures can still be binned into Smithfield sidings.

Effectively it is arranged so that failure to changeover can still be dealt with before a train reaches a point of no return.

Paul


That is correct, I sat on a number of the HazId and HazOp meetings for the operating and safety processes for Thameslink.


General feedback seems to be that it should all work fine through the central core then.

Quote
The station dwell times are those of the Tube.

I pass through Farringdon (on the Tube) on a fairly regular basis, and the neighbouring Thameslink trains are pretty much always stationary when I arrive and depart.

Isn't this where they switch from 3rd rail to OHLE (and vice versa)?

The transition is part of the ATO through these stations the Driver has to confirm the pan is down / up before approving the proceed for the train to close the doors and applying power


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: stuving on June 16, 2018, 20:05:15
I had a look at the record of operations via the Thameslink core to get some real numbers; what follows is taken from RTT for last Thursday. There are times given for arrival and departure, so a dwell time can be calculated by subtraction. I don't think that will be the same as you'd get with a stopwatch if you were on the platform, but it's the best we have. If anyone knows what the differences are we could try to correct for them.

The tph each way in the six peak hours at Farringdon (City Thameslink is, obviously, almost identical) were:
North - 10/13/11 and 7/7/8, south - 12/13/13 and 8/9/9.
So nowhere near 24 tph, even in the morning when there were almost no cancellations. In the evening, it was cancellations that took the numbers down so much.

For dwell times at Farringdon, over the whole day and both ways (336 trains called), only two exceeded 2 minutes and 5 equalled that time. The rest spread over 0.5 to 1.75 minutes, with 50% being either 0.5 or 0.75. In the morning peak (7-10) only 5 of 73 dwells exceeded 1 minute, and none 2 minutes. In the evening (5-8), of only 48 dwells, just 3 were of 1.25 minutes and the rest 1 minute or less. City Thameslink has generally lower dwell times, as you'd expect.

So the dwell times are not far from what is needed for 24 tph, but even the working timetable now has far fewer than that so it's not possible to say if they could actually achieve that.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: SandTEngineer on June 20, 2018, 18:49:08
An interesting read: https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/holy-grails-and-thameslink-fails-part-2-the-plan-that-went-wrong/

In particular this bit made me giggle a bit: https://cdn.londonreconnections.com/2013/Job-Application-for-CEO.png


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: broadgage on June 21, 2018, 14:21:05
Another report here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44560769 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44560769)

Enraged commuters kick at ticket gates, extra police patrols to provide "reassurance"

This in fact was another network rail signalling failure and not the fault of Thameslink. I can however understand the enormous frustration felt by regular victims of Thameslink.
Many feel that no peaceful or lawful redress is available, and that violence does work.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 21, 2018, 18:22:14
Another report here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44560769 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44560769)

Enraged commuters kick at ticket gates, extra police patrols to provide "reassurance"

This in fact was another network rail signalling failure and not the fault of Thameslink. I can however understand the enormous frustration felt by regular victims of Thameslink.
Many feel that no peaceful or lawful redress is available, and that violence does work.

Agreed. These are regular hardworking people who under normal circumstances wouldn't dream of such actions, but are driven to it by enduring, and paying high prices for the daily misery of a railway not fit for purpose.


Title: Re: Thameslink
Post by: Electric train on June 23, 2018, 08:56:01
Another report here
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44560769 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-44560769)

Enraged commuters kick at ticket gates, extra police patrols to provide "reassurance"

This in fact was another network rail signalling failure and not the fault of Thameslink. I can however understand the enormous frustration felt by regular victims of Thameslink.
Many feel that no peaceful or lawful redress is available, and that violence does work.

Agreed. These are regular hardworking people who under normal circumstances wouldn't dream of such actions, but are driven to it by enduring, and paying high prices for the daily misery of a railway not fit for purpose.

Testament to the fact that 20 years on and after a number of political changes (and yet more to come) to the John Major model ……………………………… privatisation isn't working



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