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Journey by Journey => South Western services => Topic started by: grahame on June 19, 2018, 04:57:06 pm



Title: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on June 19, 2018, 04:57:06 pm
It just struck me that with all the talk of more hand-me-downs for the Isle of Wight, why not bite the bullet and add a run-on of a few more trains to the next newbuild tubes?    Statement suggests that costs are reduced by doing a big standard run

http://www.mayorwatch.co.uk/tfl-hires-siemens-to-build-94-next-generation-tube-trains-for-the-piccadilly-line/

This is totally unscientific to provoke discussion.   I have not added an O2 option though.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: bignosemac on June 19, 2018, 05:48:36 pm
Can the new trains be adapted to shorter lengths though.

Modern tube stock design is geared to fixed formation fully open walk through. The traction package is designed for the required length too.

I don't think it would be as simple as just paring down a full length train to 2/3 carriages length required by Island Line.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: eightf48544 on June 20, 2018, 09:01:07 am
Class 230s?  Possibly battery.

I believe one of the problems with using full sized trains is the restricted tunnel in Ryde. Would require gauge enhancement.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: ray951 on June 20, 2018, 09:54:31 am
This London Reconnections article is worth reading about the future of the Wight line.
https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/third-ryde-tube-transfer-troublesome/ (https://www.londonreconnections.com/2018/third-ryde-tube-transfer-troublesome/)


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 20, 2018, 10:30:51 am
The trouble is there are numerous problems to overcome (both financial and technical) with all the potential solutions.  The quality of ride is shocking, especially at the southern end, so I feel the best way forward would be to do a proper job rather than a sticking plaster one with old D Stock or Piccadilly Line trains.  That would suggest re-laying most of the track, removing most if not all of the signalling, minor changes to the track layout so that a 20-minute interval service can operate, overhead electrification from Ryde St. Johns southwards and custom built trams that would operate on battery power between Ryde Pier Head and Ryde St. John's. 

Several new tram stops could be added at convenient locations in Ryde, and between Sandown and Shankling.  Indeed at Ryde you could consider an entirely new street section from Esplanade that removes the problem of Ryde Tunnel whilst taking trams through the centre of Ryde rather than the largely industrial area it currently passes through.

Who would pay for major works like that though?  It's unlikely that it would ever pay for itself, though there's no doubt in my mind that there is potential for significant growth to potentially reduce the losses.  Also, keeping the old trains going long enough to get those major works financed and built would be asking a lot.

I also like the idea of the steam railway somehow being able to share tracks through to Ryde.  Perhaps it could be the first tram/steam railway in the world?  ;)


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: Phantom on June 20, 2018, 10:55:09 am
...The quality of ride is shocking

I stayed in Sandown last weekend and had the misfortune of catching the "train" to Ryde.
I forgot how bumpy and rocky the service was, at one point a young lad was even thrown from his (sideways) seat with the motion of one bump

Even a horse drawn carraige would be an improvement to what they currently have !


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: Fourbee on June 20, 2018, 11:10:15 am
The fares on the buses seemed expensive to me (Shanklin - Ventnor was £6 return when I was on the island in 2016, which was 2 x £3 singles as they don't do returns). Currently you can travel Ryde Pier Head - Shanklin day return for £6.10.

Maybe if all those ENCTS holders had to pay Island Line would have a few more quid in it's pocket...


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: eightf48544 on June 20, 2018, 11:55:25 am
I also like the idea of the steam railway somehow being able to share tracks through to Ryde.  Perhaps it could be the first tram/steam railway in the world?  ;)

I'm afraid the Germans have got there first. Nordhausen to to Ifeld 1897 Mallet tanks and 2005? ED trams which run onto the streets of Nordhausen.

Also Karlesruhr extensive tram train system I've run behind steam up one of the tram lines.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on June 21, 2018, 06:23:53 am
Can the new trains be adapted to shorter lengths though.

Modern tube stock design is geared to fixed formation fully open walk through. The traction package is designed for the required length too.

I don't think it would be as simple as just paring down a full length train to 2/3 carriages length required by Island Line.

I'll give you a definite "don't know" on that.   The latest trains for the underground (S7 and S8) are subsurface rather than tube and probably would not fit (nor would D trains). But i do note 6 slightly different formations, powered axles in all carriages, and pickup shoes on end and 2 centre cars with power being passed to neighbouring cars via cable in all cases except one on the 7 car varient.  Unless the train software is written around 4 pickup cars per set, a 4 car formation - surely - shouldn't be too much of a problem.   3 and 2 cars slightly more questionable as none of the longer formations have a drive motor car without an attached car with motors but no pickup shoes.

Examples ...
8 car  DM M1 M2 MS MS M2 M1 DM
7 car  DM M1 MS MS M2 M1 DM
4 car  DM M1 M1 DM
3 car?  DM M1 DM
2 car?  DM DM


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: ellendune on June 21, 2018, 08:03:33 am
I thought I had read somewhere here that VivaRail was being considered for IoW services and that it had been confirmed that they would fit the tunnel.



Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 21, 2018, 09:54:45 am
I thought I had read somewhere here that VivaRail was being considered for IoW services and that it had been confirmed that they would fit the tunnel.



You may well have done, but the article ray951 linked to (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19961.msg240124#msg240124) suggests otherwise. Worth a read!


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: didcotdean on June 21, 2018, 10:21:49 am
It also seems from that article and comments that the actual present-day situation regarding clearances throughout the route might be at variance with the 'received wisdom' and public domain information.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: eightf48544 on June 21, 2018, 11:26:53 am
I thought I had read somewhere here that VivaRail was being considered for IoW services and that it had been confirmed that they would fit the tunnel.



You may well have done, but the article ray951 linked to (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19961.msg240124#msg240124) suggests otherwise. Worth a read!

Interesting article perhaps we should look to Stadler who produce many types of units for in particular Swiss narrow gauge. Many seem to be one off variants of standard types produced in small batches.

Like the idea of NSE total route modernisation.

The main problem will still be cost and who pays.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: Chris125 on April 30, 2019, 09:01:27 pm
Gauging professional Gareth Dennis has had a look at the data and is confident 230s should fit Island Line - https://twitter.com/GarethDennis/status/1121055592171356161

Quote
"...the dynamically modelled Class 230 vehicles "fit" (i.e. can be gauge-cleared) without a problem.... A little cosy here and there, but the only thing stopping them running is the Solent!"


"The tunnel is flatly not an issue. Platform gauging always requires a bit of work, and there are two minor overbridges that get tight enough to warrant a closer look, but not a thing that would worry me, and I have to live and breathe this stuff."


"(and I ran this using data that precedes the recent physical work that "may or may not" have been done to make sure they definitely fit anyway)"


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: johnneyw on September 08, 2019, 11:24:58 am
There's been an announcement about an announcement! The Keep Island Line in Franchise Facebook page is saying that after months of delay upon delay, an announcement is due this month on the Island Line. Without giving anything away, the poster sounded quite upbeat. One of the replies on the same thread said that even with the current political turmoil, a decision had to be made because the 80 year old rolling stock would not last that much longer (quelle suprise).
Anyone offering odds on Class 230s?


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: johnneyw on September 13, 2019, 09:32:14 pm
Interesting comment today on the Keep Island Line in Franchise Facebook page regarding reports of recent visits by Vivarail staff to the line. It's not from an official source but seeing there was already this thread, I thought I'd add it here rather than start a new one in the Rumour Mill.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: bradshaw on September 16, 2019, 11:30:14 am
Vivarail to supply five 2-car EMU’s to replace current trains. Testing starts next year and there will also be track improvements, including a passing loop at Brading to allow a 30 minute service

https://onthewight.com/new-trains-coming-to-the-isle-of-wight/

See also

https://twitter.com/paulcliftonbbc/status/1173537398799683584?s=21


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on September 16, 2019, 12:02:05 pm
From that link

Quote
Today (Monday) there’s good news for the users of Island Line. New trains are coming to the Island.

As anyone who has ridden the Isle of Wight’s train service knows, the trains that run between Shanklin and Ryde pier head are old. Really old.

The trains and carriages first came into service in 1938 on London Underground’s Tube. They’re so old in fact that they’re older than some of the wagons that run on the heritage Isle of Wight Steam Railway.

Five new trains

Today it’s been announced that the company Vivarail has been selected to build five new trains to run on the Isle of Wight.

The first two-car train is expected to arrive on test in early summer 2020, with track improvement works due to take place over the winter of that year.

The proposals were developed in partnership with key stakeholders on the Island, including Isle of Wight Council and Solent Local Enterprise Partnership. They have agreed to jointly contribute £1 million to fund a new passing loop at Brading, helping to deliver an even interval half-hourly service to the pier.

As a clarification, I suspect the "new" trains are refitted / refurbished D76 underground stock ... but never the less, this seems to be good news. 


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: bradshaw on September 16, 2019, 01:07:29 pm
Yes, they are the refurbished LT D78 stock and will be 3rd rail powered.


Apologies, my mistake; now corrected


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: SandTEngineer on September 16, 2019, 01:15:10 pm
Yes, they are the refurbished LT D76 stock and will be 3rd rail powered.

Strange, as the Press Release says D78 stock (which is what I thought they are)......

Quote
In trainspotting circles, they’re called D78 Stock. Originally manufactured during 1980 by Metro Cammell, Vivarail take the trains, install electric motors and fit it out the D78’s aluminium bodyshells with new interiors – with can feature modern-needs such as phone charging.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: bignosemac on September 16, 2019, 01:59:03 pm
Former D78 London Underground stock, to be known as Class 484 on the Isle of Wight.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: eightonedee on September 16, 2019, 07:27:28 pm
My goodness it's taken them a long time to make the blindingly obvious decision!


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: Timmer on September 16, 2019, 09:18:25 pm
My goodness it's taken them a long time to make the blindingly obvious decision!
I suspect ooooooooozz gonna pay for it was behind the delay in getting towards today’s announcement. Pleased for Vivarail.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 16, 2019, 10:07:44 pm
My goodness it's taken them a long time to make the blindingly obvious decision!

That's presumably because they've followed the GTFBORID* process, recently tested to near-destruction in Portishead...

*Governance for Taking Forever to make Blindingly Obvious Railway Investment Decisions


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: johnneyw on September 16, 2019, 10:57:44 pm
I've read that battery options were not taken up for two reasons:

1. Service every 30 minutes apparently doesn't give sufficient battery top up time.
2. Recent replacement of some of the 3rd rail means it was seen as worth keeping.

Source from the Keep Island Line in Franchise, Facebook page. Announcement 16 Sept (and subsequent comments and replies).


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: bobm on September 17, 2019, 04:51:19 pm
From tomorrow the usual service of two Island trains an hour will be replaced by an hourly service "until further notice" according to SWR Twitter.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: bradshaw on September 17, 2019, 07:08:52 pm
From SWR Journey Check
Quote
  Alterations to services between Ryde Pier Head and Shanklin
Due to a shortage of trains because of extra safety inspections between Ryde Pier Head and Shanklin fewer trains are able to run on the line.
What's Going On:
Train services running to and from these stations have been reduced to an hourly service. Disruption is expected until the end of the day on 20/09/19.
What We're Doing About It:
The hourly service will begin from tomorrow, Wednesday the 18th of September. We will return to our normal two trains an hour timetable as soon as possible, but the age of these trains and the difficulty in securing replacement parts means this may take longer than normal.
The hourly service will connect with the ferries at Ryde Pier Head (xx:18 departures from Shanklin and xx:49 departures from Ryde Pier Head).


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: onthecushions on September 20, 2019, 11:56:15 am

Announcement:

https://www.islandecho.co.uk/new-trains-and-passing-loop-confirmed-as-future-of-island-line-revealed/

OTC


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on October 21, 2019, 02:21:24 pm
From tomorrow the usual service of two Island trains an hour will be replaced by an hourly service "until further notice" according to SWR Twitter.

Back to 2 trains per hour

From onTheWight (https://onthewight.com/island-line-trains-returns-to-two-per-hour/)

Quote
Island Line Trains returns to two per hour

South Western Railway say keeping the 1938 ex-London Underground trains going is a difficult task, but following hard work by the team at the train care depot at Ryde St John’s, the second train is now back in action

For just over a month, Island Line Trains has been operating only one train per hour after a safety issue was discovered on one of the trains.

South Western Railway have confirmed to OnTheWight that from this morning (Monday) two trains per hour are now back in operation.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: CyclingSid on October 22, 2019, 07:17:43 am
Quote
but following hard work by the team at the train care depot
would be good members of a heritage railway?


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: onthecushions on October 22, 2019, 08:29:08 pm

Much of the Steam Railway's motive power is younger than the SWR Tube stock.

Which one is the heritage railway?

OTC


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: Robin Summerhill on October 23, 2019, 02:30:41 pm
Quote
but following hard work by the team at the train care depot
would be good members of a heritage railway?

Given that the stock they are operating with is over 10 years older than the class 2 2-6-2Ts the IOWSR are using, you could say that they are already a heritage railway


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on November 01, 2019, 08:19:39 am
From Island Echo (https://www.islandecho.co.uk/island-line-trains-terminating-at-ryde-esplanade-due-to-third-rail-fault/?)

Quote
Island Line trains are unable to serve Ryde Pier Head this morning (Friday) due to a fault with the electric third rail power system.

Services between Ryde Esplanade and Ryde Pier Head have been suspended until further notice whilst engineers investigate the issue.

Trains are running as normal between Ryde and Shanklin.

Disruption is expected until 10:00.

The news comes just days after waves started crashing over the top of the Pier, resulting in sparks flying and the fire service being called out.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on November 09, 2019, 08:11:25 pm
From Island Echo (https://www.islandecho.co.uk/island-line-disruption-expected-to-continue-into-next-week/)

Quote
Island Line is expected to run a reduced hourly timetable until at least 17th November, it has been announced.

A fault with 1 of just 2 trains operating on the Island Line network means that there is now just 1 train running between Ryde Pier Head and Shanklin.

This reliance on a single train – which is over 80 years old – has seen the service suspended in its entirety at least twice this week. The whole operation hangs in the balance.

Got themselves in a right mess, haven't they?  Cancellation rates seem to have reached the sort of levels of motive power substitution we see with steam excursions ... surely you need a spare train - 3 for a 2 diagram service?  Can they borrow "Calbourne"?


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on November 11, 2019, 07:36:49 pm
It gets worser ...

https://www.islandecho.co.uk/island-line-suspended-again-as-ageing-train-fails/

Quote
Island Line services have been suspended this afternoon (Monday) as a result of a fault with the only train running on the network.

South Western Railway has confirmed that no trains are currently operating between Ryde Pier Head and Shanklin. Disruption is expected to last for the rest of the day.

The news comes just before children leave school for Monday, many of which use the East Wight train service to get home.

Today’s suspension of service is the latest issue to hit Island Line. There are just 2 trains normally available for service on the network, but 1 has been out of action since September. The entire service is now reliant on the last remaining train – which is over 80 years old – but that keeps breaking down.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on November 13, 2019, 07:56:30 am
From On the Wight (https://onthewight.com/island-line-staff-will-not-be-striking-despite-whats-reported-elsewhere-says-rmt-spokesperson/)

Quote
A spokesperson for the RMT Union on the Isle of Wight has today confirmed to OnTheWight that Island Line staff will not be taking industrial action during December, despite other media sources saying they would be.

Island Line RMT members will be available and are expected to work during the strike period of 2nd December 2019 to 1st January 20120.

Online abuse directed at staff
The RMT Union spokesperson says they are disappointed that certain publications have chosen to publish incorrect information, which in turn has led to their members being abused online.

Let's hope they have a working train or two to drive.  Seriously, a strike on the island that shut the line down for the best part of a month would not be a good advert for its future.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on January 03, 2020, 12:08:33 am
From The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/02/isle-of-wights-rattling-rolling-charming-ex-tube-trains-face-end-of-the-line)

Quote
Isle of Wight’s rattling, rolling, charming ex-tube trains face end of the line

Passengers say change is sad but inevitable as time catches up with UK’s oldest train fleet

[snip]

Almost all the passengers the Guardian spoke to during a trip on the train expressed sadness at the prospect. Isle of Wight residents Ash and Sammy Butler were travelling with their son Codie, two, all of them Isle of Wight residents. “I love the quirkiness of it,” said Ash. “You can tell the locals from the visitors straight away. The locals know how to sway with the train. Visitors get bounced all over the place. It’s a bit like being on a boat.”

The trains may rattle but they are also lovely. The carriages feature wooden and brass trim. The livery is a deep red.

Kathleen Neil and her friend Barbara Snelling manoeuvred on to the train on their mobility scooters, helped by an attentive guard. “It is rickety but that’s the charm of it,” said Neil, who has being riding on the trains for almost 40 years. “We roll on and off all the time to go shopping and meet friends. We love it.”


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: grahame on March 02, 2020, 08:39:57 pm
From on the Wight (https://onthewight.com/extension-of-the-current-isle-of-wight-railway-moves-to-the-next-stage/)

Quote
Isle of Wight Conservative MP, Bob Seely, is reported as having submitted expressions of interest to the Department for Transport last week to reopen two rail branch lines on the Island.

Isle of Wight Radio reported the MP was seeking a feasibility study to look in detail at:
* Extending Island Line from Shanklin to Ventnor
* Providing regular passenger services through Smallbrook from Ryde to Newport
The second option would be dependent on collaboration with the Isle of Wight Steam Railway (IWSR), who own the track.

Mr Seely said that most of the money needed for the feasibility study would come from the DfT, but that some extra would be needed to be put in.

The article goes on to introduce the complexity of sharing heritage and commercial operations.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: johnneyw on March 02, 2020, 10:04:21 pm
and a little more about it from local IOW radio.

https://iwradio.co.uk/2020/03/01/54-years-on-we-could-see-the-restoration-of-the-isle-of-wights-railways/?fbclid=IwAR3w2jSoZQoMAnDkPO6kV-BRMZ-jhscFynGZJEJlQZHj0OGOHyZWzfRvTs8



Exclusive:
An expression of interest into re-opening two branch lines was submitted to the Department for Transport (Dft) on Friday (February 28), by the Isle of Wight’s MP Bob Seely – with the Isle of Wight Council’s support and involvement.
As previously reported by Isle of Wight Radio, last summer, the DfT promised to invest £26m to upgrade and improve Island Line.

Bob told Isle of Wight Radio the Expression of Interest letter was to look at routes that could be re-opened, including:
Extend the existing Island Line (Ryde to Shanklin) south of Shanklin to reach Ventnor.
Providing regular passenger services through Smallbrook from Ryde to Newport – although this would be dependent on collaboration with the IW Steam Railway that owned the track.
Bob said that this was the start of a process – the next stage was a competition for a feasibility study which would look in detail at these routes.
The report states “The council is “welcoming” the move and “will support proposals that increase travel choice and provide alternative means of travel to the car.”
Advertisment

A source close to Isle of Wight Radio says the expression of interest has been welcomed by the Solent Local Enterprise Partnership (Solent LEP).
MP for the Isle of Wight Bob Seely told Isle of Wight Radio:
“This is the start of a process to see if it is realistic to re-open any of the old lines on the Isle of Wight. We need more sustainable transport on the Island. Our roads are getting fuller.  Connecting Newport and Ventnor to Ryde would be a big boost for the Island. It’s early days yet, but I want to make sure that the Isle of Wight is at the head of any plans to reopen old lines. This is a huge boost for the Island in many ways. I will continue to see that the Isle of Wight is at the front of the queue.”
Until the 1950s the Island had a railway network of around 60 route miles, by 1966 only the Ryde to Shanklin route remained working -thanks to London underground tube rolling stock – which was electrified.
Isle of Wight Radio has asked the Isle of Wight Steam Railway and the Isle of Wight Council for a comment.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: Ralph Ayres on March 03, 2020, 10:06:45 am
I'm not convinced this has been thought through, and it smacks of an MP looking to raise his profile without really having to do anything. The line to Ventnor for instance emerged from a difficult to maintain tunnel to an inconvenient station sited at the very top of the town. The steep hill means that it would never be practical to relocate it somewhere more useful, whereas buses can serve the whole place. Running services via the steam railway's track to Newport would be rather more complex than just "collaboration"; making it frequent enough and fast enough to be preferable to a bus would inevitably interfere with one of the island's main tourist attractions.


Title: Re: Isle of Wight futures.
Post by: johnneyw on March 04, 2020, 02:17:06 pm
IOW Steam Railway has responded to the recent proposals:

'Isle of Wight Steam Railway says it is 'open to discussions' with the MP for the Isle of Wight.
However it 'has no plans' to extend the railway line due to 'financial and technical challenges.'


I recall an earlier proposal from another interested group which included looking at a (tram?) service from Ventnor to Newport.  If the IOW Steam Railway route is a non starter then Newport to Ryde is still ….. perhaps..... on the cards by that route? IIRC the proposal was based on the fact that the old route was sufficiently preserved to make this a possibility.



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