Great Western Coffee Shop

Not sure how widespread this is as an issue - some 10 carriage IETs are operating lately with four first class carriages out of the ten - this seems rather excessive given that relatively few people travel first class, and most first class carriages seem to run empty a lot of the time. Given that standard class carriages are very packed, this is perverse and quite annoying. Any reason why GWR should run 10 carriage fleets with four first class, other than they've run out of standard class?

Service this morning was five carriage unit London to Bristol with two first class out of five - just bizarre. Is their nothing in the railway regulations to allow people to use first class if the train companies cant supply the appropriate ratio of standard class to first?

The standard formation for the five carriage is:

A,B,C - Standard
D - Composite
E - First

The composite coach is somewhat under half first class, and E doesn't have that much seating space in it anyway, as it contains the kitchen.

The nine carriage version is A-J standard, K-L first.

"four first class carriages" is rather misleading.
Two of those are the end or driving vehicles and contain only limited seating.
The other two are composite vehicles and are only partly first class with the remainder being standard class.

The first class seating capacity of a 5+5 IET is I think 72 seats, not at all excessive for an allegedly intercity train.
On the 9 car trains the first class capacity is very similar.

First class provision has been significantly reduced on the new trains. On the HSTs it was over 100 before they were downgraded to commuter style.

First class on GWR has been reduced enough IMHO and shouldn't be reduced further.

Agree

Yes, as others state it's only really just over a carriage worth of actual seating.  It was more on initial interior designs (45 seats on each 5-car, so 90 on a 10-car, and 101 on a 9-car), but was reduced so the production units have 36 on a 5-car (72 on a 10-car) and IIRC 71 on a 9-car.  The reduction is probably just about right given the differing services the trains will be covering, although demand for First Class does swing quite considerably depending on how the economy is doing at any given time.

Note that the current HST formations have IIRC between 64 and 71 per train, depending on whether they have a composite coach or what type of buffet coach is in the formation.

The main issue with First class on the IET's is that when there is a 2x5 formation, they don't have a consistent "direction" of the units. So sometimes you get the first class sections of both units together in the middle, sometimes you get some first class at the very front and some at the very rear, sometimes you get first class at the very front and in the middle, and sometimes you get first class at the very rear and the middle. Talk about confusing, and it impacts dwell times too as nobody knows where on earth to stand on the platforms.

Reading to Paddington in the morning and Paddington to Reading in the evening you'll find all the first class full and on occassions I've seen customers turned away.
Those carriages thus subsidise the balance of the train.

Customer information displays and announcements are normally set to display/announce the position but it seems that isn't quite enough for the crowd that like to ignore both

I wonder how many have 1st class tickets?

My experience suggests that between London and Reading, that a significant percentage do not have first class tickets.
Further west, the great majority almost certainly hold the correct tickets.

It seems to be common practice to only check tickets west of Reading.

When, contrary to the norm, tickets ARE checked between London and Reading, I have observed significant numbers get caught. The new shorter trains are often too crowded for a ticket check.

Since IET introduction its been almost guaranteed that sitting in first class results in a ticket check between Reading and Paddington or v.v.

HSTs from Paddington almost always get a ticket check but not v.v.
Turbo's I can't remember the last time I used one and there was a ticket check.

I'm currently in an IET in 1st and it's my first journey in 1st on these trains. My first impressions were quite good and then I sat down and it went downhill after that. The seats are very uncomfortable especially compared to the HST. They have no give at all and are as hard as they are in standard. The recline is also not good although you can choose how much recline you want. It isn't an upright only or reclined only situation like the HST. The major plus point is that you can raise the armrest by the window which you can't do on any other GWR train (adelante excluded). If the seat was more comfortable that lack of armrest might permit you to sleep which is one of the reasons I travel 1st.

The blind is odd as it doesn't go to the bottom of the window which leaves a gap. The countryside going past I find distracting and would normally close the curtains. Also it's such a translucent material that with the sun behind it you see everything that we pass. Trees, large bushes etc. all cause a shadow. Making the material darker would help prevent this. The power sockets are in the wrong place being between the seats on a table of four. The person in the aisle seat will have to unplug their electronics to allow the window seat passenger to exit.

The carriage is well air-conditioned and despite it being a hot day outside you'd never notice it. The ride is relatively smooth and beats the HST (just) on that score. They're quieter which is good the journey noise is reduced. What isn't great is the noise from other people in the carriage carries for quite a distance. I'm sitting in the middle of the carriage and I can hear quite clearly (it's annoying) the conversation the people at the other end are having. I don't experience that on an HST which may just be down to the quieter carriages or the materials used on the new trains.

On the plus side the nibbles elf (aka the 1st class host) has just carried (without any request from me) a can of Coke, two bits of chocolate cake, a bottle of water and some crisps to my table. Sadly someone has brought a takeaway on at the last station and the whole carriage smells of it. Not blaming the train for that but it's not pleasant.


I probably won't be a paying customer for 1st on these trains until they get better seats. If there's an HST on the platform I will but otherwise I won't.

The curtains and the glass partitions on the HST probably cut down a fair bit of noise. I often now use 1st at weekends and sometimes on longer journeys on busy weekday services, and I will miss the quality and comfort of the HST.

Slightly off topic.. but what are the chances of being a weekend at seat service on a Saturday between Glos and Swindon and then Swindon and Bath between 11 and 1?

My train today had Driver Operation Only (according to RTT) from Oxford and people who didn't have a 1st ticket were sitting there. Part of the conversation being held on the way to Reading was as to whether they could sit there or not. They decided they'd move if any one official came in saying they didn't know it was 1st. There was no ticket check after Oxford

Unlike me, extremely slim.

Currently on the IET from Moreton in Marsh to London. The seats are still incredibly hard as expected and all the bumps can be felt. However there is only one toilet working on the entire train. It is the one in 1st and there is a never ending queue for the toilet. There is also a lack of toilet paper and people are having to use a large roll of blue catering paper towels. The train is only 5 carriages which is a short formation and it should be 10. I notice that the journey check is not showing this fact. It's fairly packed as a result even in 1st where people are standing in the carriage and the vestibule.

Seat reservations are not working due to their only being 5 carriages The blind is not blocking the sun as it's now too low in the sky and I've reclined so is flooding in through the large gap at the bottom. This is bloody ridiculous and even my attempts with hanging my suit up to block it aren't really working. Oh and as I've discovered you can't (or at least I and several others can't) get out of the reclined seat easily because of the table leg position. Plus someone in four seat nearly had his laptop pulled off the table a couple of times. He's got up to let someone out twice now and they've got caught in the power cable which is plugged in between the seats. I always thought that was a daft place to put the socket.

I went into travelling on these trains with an open mind and but I'm going off them the more I travel on them.

Not sure if it's a short form but I was at Reading earlier and noticed that the 1505 to Penzance (goes via Bristol I think?) was being advertised as "full and standing" from Paddington - could be a very long, uncomfortable journey for a lot of people.

Oh and I got off at Reading because my backside had gone to sleep and I needed to stretch my legs. Just before I did so a staff member (who I think was positioning) mentioned to the Train Manager that they'd been on this set a few times during the week and the toilets were out of action then too. My electronics still refuse to work whilst plugged in to the power/USB sockets on an IET. This is with or without the case being used. The touch screen doesn't work if being charged or if it does it produces gobbledegook on screen when typing.

That was a HST today instead of the booked 10-car IET.  Not enough capacity on the old trains obviously. ;)

Two trains into one because of engineering work. The 14.27 Pad-Bri and the 14.57 Pad-Pnz diverted via Bristol as the 14.30.

I too have this problem when charging and using an iphone 7. The touchscreen doesn't respond as you expect, instead it randomly reacts with actions not requested/touched! unplug it & it returns to normal. Plug it back in & away it goes again.

I have mentioned this to GWR who said they'd go away & try & replicate the problem....

Edited -

Is it just iPhones where this issue occurs?

not so, sorry - often on leaving Paddington all the way through Reading and on.

Both of my android devices did it and both chargers but I couldn't check my iPhone because I didn't have the cable with me.

This sounds like the behaviour I've seen when the voltage from the USB supply isn't regulated properly, or has lots of noise (fluctuating AC voltage in addition to the DC). This causes the voltage to the touchscreen circuity to fluctuate causing random events. I don't know how you could get around this (of course, it'd be nice if GWR could investigate whether the USB sockets have a good clean DC voltage available...)

It's annoying to say the least and doesn't happen on the HST.

I find this very odd and do wonder if something in the IET environment OTHER THAN supply voltage is upsetting some devices.
USB power outlets incorporate a regulated power supply, and they work just fine overseas in places with very poorly controlled grid voltage.
Most types of USB outlet also accept a wide range of input voltage, often a range from 200 volts up to 270 volts, I doubt the "mains" voltage on an IET varies that much.
I presume that USB outlets in the IETs are standard "off the shelf" units purchased by Hitachi, and not some weird special railway version.

Could it be some non supply voltage cause ? such as electrical interference from other on board systems, or unusually high or low humidity.
Many touch screen devices perform slightly differently when plugged in or not, because plugging them in tends to slightly "earth" them via the 5 volt supply cable.

The IEP specification didn't call up any standards, in fact it didn't say whether the train should provide mains or USB outlets. I assume we are only talking about mains and you own charger here; some posts certainly are, but are USB sockets even provided? 

USB itself was designed for data and control, and repurposed for recharging phones etc., both as an interface on the phone and a charger itself and its outlet. That has now been standardised, though using the principle that if one standard is good then a lot of them must be better. But I'm sure in reality they are pretty similar - EN IEC 62684:2018 seems to be current. But (without its full text) I  think it only covers volts and amps, not interference which is probably regarded as unimportant for charging. Working while plugged in is another issue altogether.

I suspect, like broadgage, it's about earthing. If the mains supply (live and neutral together) has a significant voltage at the train's inverter frequencies, which I understand are around 1 kHz, or their harmonics, that could well interfere with a touch screen. I don't know which principles they use these days; some types do use such voltages in the touch sensing itself, but even those that don't may have them just inside and not provide much screening.

In addressing the issue, the first problem is that you are GWR's customer, but GWR and DfT together are Hitachi's customer, so you have no direct contract with the design authority. Then, do they offer the service you are using, or only a charging facility? If there is no standard, or it's not a formal requirement, then what does someone (we don't know who) test the sockets against?

There ought to be solutions that can filter out the suggested kind of common-mode interference, but they all require filters that are properly earthed. A charger could use the mains earth for this, but I don't think they ever do. You can get filters to put in the USB lead, but they aren't yet (AFAICS) standard consumer items, and in any case are unlikely to address common mode interference or such low frequencies. But has anyone else come across workable solutions, using filters or otherwise?

USB’s are provided in first class along with plugs.

I've certainly tried the USB socket on the IET but whether that was with a touchscreen enabled device I couldn't tell you. Depending on the type of train tomorrow night I'll be able to test it on both the inbuilt USB and the power socket. I'll also take along a few more different USB chargers as well as a USB power display device (https://www.amazon.com/AboveTEK%C2%AE-USB-Power-Meter-Current/dp/B00JIFMXSK/) to give it a full test. The sockets are in a daft place because you have to unplug everything if the person in the window seat has to get out of their seat.

I, and my wife, have both experienced difficulties using our smart 'phones on HSTs (in First Class) in the past. They seemed to respond very poorly/randomly to touch screen inputs. It made no difference whether the 'phone was plugged in or just running on its own battery. It may, possibly, have been related to our location within the coach.
I put it down to some interference produced by train fitted equipment - usually "cheapo" inverter type electronics is a common cause of unwanted interference.

That's very odd (the unplugged bit) and it would be interesting to see if you get the same interference on the IET with the same items.

I have my first IET First Class "experience" booked later in the month. Will set a reminder in my 'phone to tell me to check - if my 'phone will work to remind me, that is !

Sadly for the purposes of the test* I'm on an HST tonight and everything is working perfectly whilst connected to the onboard power supply. Will have to try with my plethora of gadgets and different chargers on the return journey. *Although I'm personally much happier on the HST.

So I'm sitting in a 9 car IEP and I have tested the power using a variety of different chargers and cables. I'll upload a picture of the chargers and indicate which ones worked and which didn't. The Amazon tablet is the main sufferer of gobbledygook. The Samsung phone was unaffected as far as I can tell. The iPhone would occasionally type a letter from the other side of the keyboard but it was really random and not conclusive evidence. The cable for the iPhone is also shielded which might make a difference.

Regret to say that my first IET First Class "experience" was such that minor points such as my 'phone working were not top of my list of priorities !

My wife and I were booked out of Paddington to Bath on a later evening service. We elected to pay a LOT more to travel First Class in case the train was busy.
The train arrived 53 minutes before its scheduled departure time. It was 10 coaches (first fear crossed off list). We walked from the First Class Lounge to the train via the footbridge - ticket barriers were locked open, but in use at the Lawn end. We boarded the train some 25 mins before departure - not much sign of the train being "prepared". The platform number seemed to appear at the very last minute (as usual) judging by the mass stampede down the platform.

We were sitting in the lead coach of the rear 5. There was a continuous stream of people trying to get through to the next coach - many seemed to take it as a personal insult when I told them they would have to get onto the platform and walk round to the next coach. Many seemed to think this was a Standard Class coach due the decor (don't blame them !!) (Perhaps Mr Hopwood could negotiate a price for some First Class stickers for the windows ?)  At this point the train manager came on the PA and apologised for the fact that this 10 car train was in fact two 5 car trains joined together and it was not possible to walk from one to the other. He then announced that due to "staff shortages" there would be no catering in the rear half of the train - luckily we had stocked up in Simply Food.
The train departed - with people still on the platform and others trying to get though our coach.
The train manager then announced that the rear five coaches were packed but that there were seats available in the front five and that those standing in the rear could occupy First Class seats. He then suggested that, at Reading, these people could walk down the platform to find any empty Standard Class seats in the front 5 cars - did he really expect these people to move from their First Class seats ??  - of course not - they stayed put ! At Reading, Didcot and Swindon we had yet more people joining the rear of the train and trying to walk through to the front 5 cars. Not only could they not do this of course - but First Class was still packed .....

The whole of this shambolic episode was caused by the idiocy of using two 5 car trains as a 10 car unit. Long before I retired I sampled the delights of 5 car travel when the Class 180s were introduced on this same route. Exactly the same problems with exactly the same results - does no one learn anything ??
There will be regulars who will learn from this but there will be many travelers who won't know that a "10 car train" just 'aint that !! of course there is the added complication of 4 different positionings of First and Standard Classes - at least the 180s had it in the middle ! I felt so sorry for the train manager who was struggling with an awful situation which was totally beyond his control and imposed on him by little more than a bunch of idiots!! He seemed almost relieved when a Swindon boarding passenger (off a train from Stroud) informed him that (a) he had got on the wrong train. (b) he had left his bag on the other train - something that he could actually do something about................

I'll finish my moan off now - I thought IET First Class was abysmal (I'm not talking about the shambles above either), it should be renamed Third Class. We left the IET at Bath and traveled in a well worn SWR 159 to Westbury - First Class in that (as usual) was heavenly with proper, big, padded comfy armchairs - just like a 125 !!!

One final, VERY serious, thought - 5 car IETs on Cardiff to Portsmouth ?????? A sensible use for these things !

Don't forget to claim your refund due under NRCOT conditions 15.7 and 31 for First Class being declassified.

Yeah staff on my HST trips haven't wanted to comment on what they thought of 1st on the IET. I pointed out that I thought it was a real downgrade and the DfT had ballsed it up. Catering also seriously seems to be a bit hit and miss with a lack of a customer host being a depressingly often occurrence. At least with a buffet you could collect complimentary nibbles from there if no customer host was present. I'm informed by staff that trolley(s) in standard do not have 1st items on there and you can't have any of the regular items. That's something GWR need to look at if they want to keep people paying for 1st.

Many thanks for that - I did think about claiming, then thought it probably wouldn't be worth the effort. Just had a look on the GWR website - due to the terms in 31.1 and the high cost of walk up tickets we might get a refund of £2.95 each. I fear the new Aston Martin will have to wait a bit longer.. :'(

Perhaps if I press the "no catering" bit I might get another 50p.......

Whilst I am of course sorry to hear of your negative experience, I cant say that I am surprised.

I specifically  stated that downgrading formerly inter-city services to DMU operation would lead to exactly the problems experienced.
A pair of short DMUs without through gangways are not a proper intercity train. For the reasons that you experienced of crowding in one unit, and consequent declassification of first class.

I also specifically forecast that the first customer host and/or the trolley would be in the other unit.

The voyager project is now admitted to have been a failure, too short from day one, still too short years later. The wretched Adelantes were also a failure, less conspicuous only because there where not that many of them.
So have lessons been learned ? Not likely, lets order a load more short DMUs for so-called inter city services.

Perhaps you should consider changing your coffeeshop nom de plume to "Nostradamus"  ;) ;)        2:30 at Sandown tomorrow please.... :D

No Sandown, but in the 2.30 Punchestown, I reckon Poli Roi. Just like an IET, he has enough speed for the trip, and a ride that will be hard to beat.

Best internal layout of any train in recent times, with acres of legroom, comfy seats, loads of tables, ample first class and even a buffet and they still get described as wretched and a failure?

Ok, well they certainly failed a lot! ;)

The Adelantes were a failure from the capacity point of view, too short.
Also unreliable, especially in warm weather.

The internal layout was better than an IET, but that is not saying much.

They were just about perfect capacity wise for the Cotswold Line duties they spent most of their lives doing.

In my opinion the internal layout was better than anything ever seen in a HST carriage.

My criticism of the 180s was solely aimed at the fact that they were totally the wrong train being used in the wrong place.  My recollection of them was that I had no major complaint about them. Seats/legroom/fixtures and fittings all seemed to be quite acceptable. I remember the ride being very good. The only slightly negative point was the engine noise, but even that was not too bad - just noticeable. I can't comment on their reliability - I don't recollect one breaking down on me.

Just to add to my tale of woe, earlier in this thread. The trip to PAD was in a 125 - it ran like a sewing machine, we were sitting in the middle of the train (D) and the ride was smooth and almost totally silent. The return in the IET was my first experience of one of these at full speed  - the ride was not very good and there did seem to be a lot of "tyre noise" - the 125 was much better in all respects on that front. On electric power the acceleration of the IET was very good. It did run to time as well !

I have just re-booked tickets for a similar event in London next year - I have specifically booked for a Saturday this time, so we can travel in comfort on SWR from/to Warminster. I really liked traveling in a 125 - I will do my utmost, in future, to avoid any distance travel in an IET.

Interesting to hear your comments regarding ride quality.  I can honestly say that I find the IETs to be absolutely fine in that regard, having made 100 or so trips on them now.  Certainly no worse than a HST, and sometimes better if you’re on a HST where the power cars are not in perfect sync and you get the resulting jerking and snatching.  Ride quality is as much about the state of the track than the train of course, and it’s usually better in the centre of the carriage than above the bogies for obvious reasons.

Before I give anyone the impression of being an apologist though, I totally agree that the quality of the first class offering has reduced significantly on the new trains.

That is because the Intercity 125 was I think, built in Britain, In Derby. Those IETS Are built abroad, ar,nt they?

The one design shortcoming (as opposed to reliability etc) I remember was that only quite small items fitted into the overhead storage; significantly poorer in that respect compared with both the HST and now IET.

The IETs are built in England (Newton Aycliffe), Italy and Japan, and I think most passengers would have great difficulty telling you where the train they happened to be on was built.  Not sure how comfort or quality of ride relates to the build country -  perhaps you could enlighten us?   Much more to do with specification, design, and a whole host of safety and other issues with regards what materials and design parameters must be applied these days.

Are those the right countries, I was told by A Member of Staff that they were all made in Spain. Anyway the HST,S Were the Trains that some say, saved British Rail, There was a programme some months ago about them on tv. Firstly there was the APT, But you should ride a HST From Cheltenham, The ride is like being on a roller coaster, they bounce up and down, been like it for several years now.

My only criticism of the Adelante was that 1st was in the middle of the train. Apart from that I quite liked them.

I think that was a good point compared to the 5 car IETs. On a 10 car 180 you always knew where 1st would be; on a 10 car IET you have a 1 in 4 chance of knowing where 1st is !

Not quite true, as 1st Class was in either the second or fourth vehicle on a 180, so on a 10-car formation (which didn't operate often anyway) you still had a 1 in 4 chance as they could be in 2 and 7, 4 and 7, 4 and 9, or 2 and 9.  I take your point that it's not as bad as when the IETs get swapped round though!  Hopefully formations will settle down (amongst many other things) when all units are delivered and diagrams settle into their eventual semi-permanent state.

Having first other than at one end is never a good idea, since it tends to reinforce the view - mentioned upthread - that first is a corridor to be walked through to get to standard.

While the Adelantes were operationally suited to the Cotswold line, they always gave the impression of being unloved, in the sense that nobody ever quite got round to sorting out the ridiculously noisy "fingers down the blackboard" brakes or the lumpy idle. They share the latter with the Voyagers but are even worse - no problem at full chat, but horrible in stations.

In those respects the 5-car IET sets are better.

180s and Voyagers have very similar engines I believe.  IETs are very quiet on diesel in comparison as you might expect with over 15 years of development.

Paddington is becoming eerily quiet these days.  :)

Except that there are those who wouldn't board and walk through a 1st carriage. Friends of mine (for the same reason as me) find it quicker to go along the platform if looking for a seat in standard*. Those people may well (and in my experience will) board a standard class carriage and walk through 1st looking for a standard class seat. *In my experience people walk through 1st only when the train is due to leave in under ~3 minutes and think they might miss the train. One Friday night with an HST in reverse formation leaving Paddington someone sitting in the near me was turfed out of 1st by the train manager. He'd walked the length of the train on the platform to 1st and sat down. Then when challenged claimed to have a bad leg and needed a 1st seat as a result. Train manager was having none of it having watched him walking down there without a problem.