Great Western Coffee Shop

Breaking this off from the topic on the problems of IET introduction.

Suggestion is travel in good time and find something to do at destination if it works for you.


As a piece of defensive travel ... I'm working in Motherwell tomorrow, and started from Wick this morning.

08:02 train cancelled, lack of conductor.  We were all on board and the driver turfed us off - "sorry - just heard we have been cancelled". Train left empty a few minutes behind schedule with just the driver and the young lady on the buffet trolley who was going to have extremely lean takings.

Station unstaffed until 10:10 ( 8 passengers who had all managed to find their way in via the unsignposted back gate!). Phone for "Train information".     "We are trying to source a bus ... don't know how long it will be.  We will let you know in the next half hour".  On being asked how he would let us know, he suggested I call back.  On being asked if we could use the 08:53 bus, "I have not been told of any arrangements in place", and on asking if my Spirit of Scotland was valid on the route "I don't know anything about tickets".

I am writing this from the 08:53 bus ... not risking a wait for rail replacement, which might (or might not) be visiting all the intermediate places to Inverness.  Not waiting for the next train at 12:34 - that's assuming that would be running ...

So - greetings from Lybster, last served by trains in 1944, as I recall!

Probably find the bus is quicker back to Inverness though maybe not quite as enjoyable as travelling by train.

You might bump into four & twenty virgins on the way back! 🙂

Did you pay for your bus ticket or did the driver/conductor accept your Spirit of Scotland ticket/explanation for using the bus?

I was very lucky last week. Enroute for Inverurie from Wick, I could catch either the 08:02 or 12:34 (both did run). If I caught the 08:02, I would have had to miss breakfast (served from 8am), but could have a couple of hours in Inverness. If I opted for the later 12:34, I could have a leisurely breakfast, but only 9 minutes in Inverness. In the end, my very kind landlady provided breakfast at 7am and gave me a lift to the station so that I could get the 08:02.

Interesting topic. Many years ago I would never think of defensively scheduling. Now a days with the total unreliability of the railways it's almost automatic.

As most of my journeys start at Taplow that usually means leaving on the train 30minutes in advance of one that I need. Assuming that it is  running. Real Time Trains is good for checking.

I'm 'defensively' re-scheduling my plans for next week's All Line Rover trip (intended to encompass Wick).  Dare I risk missing the Highland Chieftain for Inverness by making an early start from Yatton to Paddington on a (hot) Monday morning in a possibly short formed/non-available IET?  I have already booked seats but the more I am reading the less I like look of the chances of making it. I have to be in Inverness by 21:00 to make the last train North for my paid for accommodation.

I have to consider a number of other options now with companies with more reliable trains and more chance of making connections or even a coach to London the day before (Sunday - so not risking a GWR train) and adding a hotel bill.

I am finding what promised to be a relaxing break turning into a worry and possible disappointment.  How sad that it has come to this.

If you don't fancy GWR and you can get yourself to Bristol, then SWR Train via Salisbury to Waterloo the day before and Travelodge (other overnight acccommodation is available) would be my preferred option.

Indeed.  Rather than the 08:02 train, I caught the 08:53 bus.  Which got me to Rose Street Inverness (A pretty sounding name for a spot that isn't) a few minutes before 12:00, rather that at 12:36 which is when the train was due.


I explained what had happened / showed my ticket and did not have to pay.   I don't think any alternative arrangements were in place, rather an act of kindness (or a thought that I could have caused a scene and delayed the bus) allowed me on.  Big thank you to the driver from me and the others who had also been caught up in the cancellation.

The saga will continue - I am in a further stage of my journey to Glasgow, again making use of my defensive scheduling because I am not on the planned service, but rather on my first reserve!

I think it'll be XC to Brum, Virgin to Edinburgh and pick up the Chieftain there. And I can leave 2 hours later with a fall back train if I miss the Chieftain (but without a meal).  I'll decide when I know if seats are available.

At least my income is not dependent on trains being reliable. I am glad you got to Inverness in time Graham.  :)

I'm in Glasgow ... and not sure whether to report that I've been on 4 trains today, or travelled on two.   Turfed off one because of a lack of conductor, turfed off a second because of a train fault ... hot, sticky, tired - but in good time to recover from my journey for work tomorrow.   I blame the tiredness on 3 hours sitting crammed on a bus, but then I would, wouldn't I?    12 miles on a bus is fine, 20 miles is stretching it, 100 is taking the proverbial!

Arrived in Glasgow on "First Reserve" which was due 16:52 rather than 16:18.   Actual arrival dead on 17:00.  Intermediate connection failed due to the 170 we were on not climbing on full power from Inverness - overheating engines due to the hot weather.  Perhaps things will improve when these units have got through their teething troubles phase  ;D

My 'defensive scheduling' in that neck of the woods was back in 2002.

I didn't book my bike on the Up Highland Chieftain (Inverness to York) for the Wednesday until my Sunday night stay in Inverness on the way north.  I had spent the previous 9 days cycling from Land's End, and by now I'd got the hang of how far I could cover in a day.  Monday was Inverness to Wick; Tuesday Wick to John O'Groats and then on to Thurso - then train (with bike in ScotRail Transit Van) to Inverness, for a plush night's stay in the station hotel.  Then trains back to Derby in time for tea and medals.

Happy days.

By way of balance: The Squirrel family had a few days in Edinburgh last half-term. We got the train from Droitwich, changing to the Euston-Edinburgh service at Birmingham; this was cheaper than flying (with F&F railcard). All trains were on time, and everyone was very pleasant and helpful; even the woman who'd caught the wrong train and tried to turf us out of our reserved seats was alright once we'd explained whose problem it was. We met up with some friends from Bristol whilst up there; they had flown, which meant getting up at sparrow's fart, and spending most of their first day feeling very tired whilst we were fresh as daisies and up and at 'em.

On the Saturday, we got our train back to Brum and they headed off to the airport to be told that (a) their flight was cancelled, (b) There was no flight on Sunday, and (c) Monday's was/were full. The good news was that there were seats on Tuesday! They clubbed together with a couple of others and hired a minibus, which they drove back to Bristol through the night.

Overall, I think we got the better deal!

I think the whole reason for defensive scheduling is the unreliability  of the current of the services.  It is difficult to anticipate what problems you will face be it infrastructure failures train failures, staff shortages etc. etc.

When a rail journey works there's nothing better when it fails there's nothing worse.

That's my point - there IS something worse! Delays, cancellations and inconvenience are obviously a feature of today's railway, but can you think of a time when for purely operational reasons your rail journey was delayed for three days? It's not like our friends were trying to fly home from Predporozhnyy during an unexpected monsoon...

Yes, as far as I'm concerned that's true.  But even if the trains ran 99.5% of the time, and 98% arrived at final destination within 5 minutes, I would probably still travel one early for important and time critical appointments - if nothing else to give me a chance to relax and prepare for what I was headed into. 

Alas - a further example this morning ... or rather an example of what can go wrong if you rely on a train running and more or less to schedule.  06:49 Carlisle to Euston cancelled due to lack of train crew ... I had planned 10:15 London arrival, 11:30 from Paddington for the Melksham connection at Chippenham to a 2 p.m. Trowbridge meeting.  Oops.  Ticketed on return halves of ticket ... Carlisle to London, then from Paddington out.

Shortage of train crew seems to be increasingly systemic, not limited to GWR land, or even to the headline TOCS of Northern, Southern and (our own next of the woods) Western.  Perhaps it is time to ask if the system needs amendment - perhaps to avoid the temptation to TOCs to be quite as leanly staffed as they are?   I am fully aware of the headline that says that GWR have more drivers than even before.  But that's not to say they have enough available, nor does the headline cover maintenance staff or train managers.

P.S. I do have a fallback  ;D and should be on time for the meeting.

i don't know what you're planning as a fall back ,but trains between BRI &BTH are running late this morning caused by a signalling problem this disrupted service is expected to continue until at least 1300 today.

Does defensive scheduling include instances where a station is unstaffed, in this instance, Chippenham, which is currently the advice on JourneyCheck so no-one to advise pax what to do in the event of a Swindon - Westbury or v.v. service is cancelled.

Ah ...


Defensive scheduling certainly includes changing at staffed rather than unstaffed.   On TransWilts in the afternoon, that's usually a change at Chippenham (typically 10 minutes to arrange rail replacement) rather than Trowbridge (up to 90 minutes to arrange rail replacement).

Very interesting journey underway.

06:49 Carlisle to Euston cancelled.  Next express at 07:49 would be too late to connect to 2 p.m. meeting

Took the 07:02 to Wolverhampton, changed there to the 09:41 Bournemouth train, headed for Reading where I can pick up the express from Paddington.  Carlisle to London Terminals is valid via Reading.

Looking at the Bath to Bristol issues, 2 cancellations on the TransWilts and a lack of station staff at Chippenham, I will probably catch the Newquay train from Reading to Westbury, from where it is only a short train or bus ride up to Trowbridge. Defensive scheduling has also encouraged me to miss changing at Oxford and Didcot instead of at Reading.

Good call Grahame  - that's why I am an XC fan!

It's a sign of the times that we're off to Oxford from Goring for a social do, and have decided to take an earlier train.....

Chippenham unstaffed again today according to JourneyCheck.

Quite a busy station to leave unstaffed.

And again 03 Jul 2018.

And again 04 Jul 2018.

But Chippenham is station with a "footfall" of nearly 2 million a year!

Must of found someone to man the station during today as its now not listed on JourneyCheck as a problem.

Graham wrote on 27/06/18

Somewhat belatedly, I am able to add a partial explanation to this apparently odd movement that seems daft in isolation. I used the Far North Line last week and the entire crew of the 07:00 from Inverness - Wick swap with the crew from the 08:02 Southbound train at Lairg, so the driver and the catering person would be providing a unit and a trolley for the pax joining from Lairg southward and the driver would bring the northbound unit back for the next service south.  I cannot find any information about whether the pax who had got up even earlier to travel north were turfed off at Lairg as Real Time Trains records accurately that the train runs but not that anyone was on it.  As it happens it is recorded as arriving on time in Inverness.

I think it may have arrived empty even into Inverness though - certainly cancelled from Tain to Inverness (that's south of Lairg) as there were some very unhappy people who had had to get a taxi from there to connect onwards to their Edinburgh train.  And I noted that the 13:35 Inverness to Kyle of Lochalsh was also cancelled due to lack of crew.   Scotrail staff are of the feeling that the thing is being run on a shoestring without a downturn in investment in staff - not a happy bunch when you get chatting.

I was very fortunate then.  I had a good experience with Scotrail: they even held back the last train north when my train from Edinburgh arrived late at Inverness.

It is amazing how just one or journey's, good or bad can colour one's opinion.  Certainly cancelling trains in such remote areas will have major impacts on those that rely on them.

Indeed.

While still in my memory, I have analysed the 15 trains I travelled on - ScotRail in Scotland.
1 was cancelled
1 arrived at my destination 25 minutes late
1 arrived at my destination 20 minutes late (*)
3 arrived at my destination about 10 minutes late
2 arrived at my destination just over 5 minutes late
7 arrived at my destination on time
Journey noted (*) arrived late too late for me to make my onward connection.

Well, I've just spent three days travelling up and down the Northern end of the West Coast Mainline and out of 10 journeys the total number on-time has been....well.....zero.... :P

On a couple of occaisions I caught an earlier service than the one I needed to, to make sure I made a branch/secondary line connection.

When defensive schduleing fails

Important meeting at 16:00 ... Reading

Plan - Take the 12:36 ex Melksham, change Swindon, arrive around 13:45 but
* Cancelled

Next train 14:40 (fallback option - 15:45 Reading) but
* 8 late, connection failed at Swindon

Every 15 minutes Swindon to Reading
* "Not today sir - (at 15:16) next train is 15:42. Normally there's one between"

Now 16:00 ... location, somewhere before Didcot.

Fortunately it's a rail meeting so I'm sure my hosts will be understanding

From Huffington Post (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chris-grayling-late-conference-speech_uk_5bb200c7e4b0343b3dc21d08) - a failure of defensive scheduling?

Classic example of when you should "defensive schedule"

From the Kidderminster Shuttle (https://www.kidderminstershuttle.co.uk/news/regional/17587122.worcester-woman-who-missed-her-plane-twice-due-to-train-problems-says-she-is-mentally-exhausted/)




Edit to add ...

My bolding.

Actually NOT all that early.  07:35 gets to Reading at 09:20.   Dubious connection to 09:32 to Gatwick - really should connect to 10:32 which gets to Gatwick at 11:51, which is really not brilliant for a 14:00 takeoff.

Omitted re: her experience on Tuesday - "Eventually they said there was no driver, and it was cancelled. I realised I wouldn’t make it in time. I was so frustrated I just went home and unpacked. The station guard didn’t explain to me that they would have got me a taxi at their expense, which would have got me there.”

Gatwick advises arriving at least 2 hours before take-off, so even if she hadn't made the 09:32 and had to catch the 10:32, arriving at 11:51 for a 14:00 take-off seems pretty reasonable?

 

Having looked up the flight to Sardinia it leaves at 1155 on Tuesdays (her first attempt) and the 0511 she tried to catch gives an arrival time at Gatwick at around 0850.  That seems reasonable, as with an hour's delay there would still be plenty of time. What I don't understand is that the next train would have got her to Gatwick before 10am.

So did she give up too early?

As she suggested,she should have been proactively offered a taxi when the GWR failed to provide the 0511 which she was (defensively) scheduled to catch. Customer service failure compounded the operational failure.

Bear in mind as well that she is a 69 year old lady so one would hope additional consideration would have been shown to her.

I suspect that there will be torrent of comments questioning her integrity, motivation, intelligence etc etc in usual manner...….

69 is only three years above the retirement age, so I'm not sure why people think that everyone of that age is unable to fend for themselves, physically or mentally.  And I'm not sure why being a woman is relevant either to the discussion.  All she had to do was ask whether the next train would get her there in time.

I'm not making any assumptions about her physical or mental capabilities, I just think it's  courtesy to help your elders, especially when they're female, alone and at an ungodly time of the morning ? (Although I get that's a concept that's fast diminishing, and we all set our own standards).

As a balancing reminder - reading comment on the Worcester story press saying "she should have driven"


We may grumble about railway delays and schedule our important trips defensively.  We should do exactly the same thing if we're travelling by road too!

Yes we should, and most people do add on extra journey time to their planned itinerary from Google or GPS but that is because they are running to a personal timetable, not someone elses.
The main difference is that when getting delayed on the road, most people accept it (though some pay grumble on social media or to local newspapers) and of course cannot claim compensation.