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I've had several messages from colleagues in the industry mentioning an email bulletin called 'Rail Business Intelligence'. Does anyone have access to this, as its reported in the most recent edition that FGW are to lose a further 12 Class 158 units "in March"?

Nothing would surprise me!

I understand that due to the very poor availability of trains on the West fleet out of Bristol (largely caused by a lack of facilities at the unfinished depot, and a lack of enough staff with approrpiate experience), there have been a lot more trains based there than should be necessary.   Not only will this be costing FGW money that they had not bargained for, but it will also be tying up the trains which the leasing companies may have anticpiated renting out elsewhere, so First may well be coming under pressure to return the extras.

If FGW have had 12 x 2 coach trains that weren't in there budget for 3 months, that's probably cost them more than hiring a single 153 for 5 years ... and we know what a battle it has been to get movement (DfT / First / WCC) on that quarter to provide an appropriate TransWilts service.  So it figures that they'll be quite glad to see them go, especially if they can blame the ROSCOs for reclaiming them when they were still needed.  And did you know that Northern Rail have just signed up to lease a further 30 158s - see the full press release you can download from here (http://www.northernrail.org/news/news_details.asp?id=160).  Those won't come out of thin air.

Going slighly away from the original topic, it's rather looking as if the only unassigned diesel units that are available are a very few 153s (3? 4?), with some 142 Pacers also becoming available ex Northern Rail.  But I saw elsewhere that Pacers break down every 2000 miles.  In other words, if they were used to provide an appropriate service on the TransWilts we could expect a train failure roughly once a week.  I can't see any TOC going for that option under normal circumstances.

I can't see any TOCs going for 142s either, particularly in the current climate where there appears to be a fair amount of 158s and similar sets changes hands almost weekly. My concern is that FGWs current tactic of leasing just enough stock to cover the minimum service specification will leave them out in the cold later. Even if they were convinced that we needed a sensible TransWilts serivce, or strengthened Bristol area commuter services, there just won't be anything left.

I have been told by a reliable person who works for fleet than First have PURCHASED a number of DMUs to go with the 5 (i think) HST sets they own for use on FGW. However they need a fair bit of work doing to them so it is likely that they won't be in use for a while!

Hi ... and welcome to the forum; I note from another post that you're one of the FGW team, and it's a huge help to people like myself who are just passengers/customers to have other around who can explain that reasons behind some of the thing that we see happening, and wonder about.

Did you get any indication as to what class of DMU were being talked about?  Something that's likely to be used on "The West" fleet such as 150 / 153 / 158, or something for the Paddington suburban services of more 125s perhaps?  I guess it's not the Adalantes as they wouldn't need "a fair bit of work doing on  them".

It's 143's I believe but don't hold me to that and they are for use at the West Country end of the line so to speak. The 180's were due to go back in December but are now staying to at least next June.

Great. Useless trains for the West Country. I look forward to the increased station dwell times and I hope Netowrk Rail downgrade the track quality hence banning the use of them. In this case, I would even saw 150s are good. There would be no way it would be 180s as I believe FGW lease all of them!

So we are getting ATW 143's!

I guessed that was going to be the answer as 142s/143s are about the only spare DMU stock thats going spare at the moment and that nobody wants.

150s/153s/158s are a precious commodity with many of the regional train companies desperate to get hold of whatever they can to aleviate chronic overcrowding that doesnt just affect our part of the world. Though I sigh at the thought of FGW purchasing 142/3s rather than other DMUS we would like to see, if it helps improve services on busy commuter routes by releasing 150s/153s from West branchlines then it is a good move. If it's so FGW can release the 12 158s that it currently has then not good, just a downgrade in the quality of stock running on the Western Region.

I would be delighted to see a 142/143 unit running from Frome to Swindon each morning at 07:35, 09:35 and 11:35, and each afternoon at 14:35, 16:35, 18:35 and 20:35, returning 1 hour later in each case from Swindon.  This was one of the "base cases" that was being looked at by FGW and Network Rail ... which I understand may have been blown out of the water by the NON-AVAILABILITY and LEASING COST of an extra train.

Perhaps there's a sensible solution here?

Trowbridge to Swindon by bus - 95 minutes
Trowbridge to Bath by train, change, by train to Swindon - 60 to 90 minutes
Trowbridge to Swindon by direct train - 35 minutes

Traffic growth (2001 - 2006) on this corridor - between 9% and 35% compound per annum
Future growth - 50% population increase along the corridor in the next 30 years.

P.S.  I understand there are pathing issues involved on the single track section; with a dedicated train running in this way, there would be more flexibility for the timetablers than if they were trying to provide an appropriate service on the line using "stolen hours" from trains primarily intended for other services.

I would be very happy to travel from my home town of Melksham in a 142/143 up to Swindon, and I would be happy to pay a fare that was 30% higher than the current fare on this route. What about it, FGW?

^ That sounds like a great idea, but sadly if this happened we couldn't run the Swindon-Salisbury services as I've heard before that 143s can't go further south than Warminster. You could use them for short journey trains terminating at Westbury (or even Frome/Yeovil), though- presumably even originating from the Stroud Valley!

If FGW get rid of 12 x 158s and in place get 5 x 14xs then I wouldn't be surprised if the Melksham line gets axed as these trains are needed on far busier parts of the network! Sorry to disapprove but I can see where FGW are coming from when they have little resources (although it is their fault in fairness) although I have seen a number of these trains and they are virtually empty and from what I hear many others are wedged. If the 1/2 carriages used on the Melksham line could go elsewhere it wouild solve many problems. The ideal solution to melksham is to have a private or Open Acces operator to run it as FGW obviously are not interested.

Hi, Liam.

Many thanks for posting this, as it gives me an excellent opportunity to correct one or two misconceptions, and to answer questions that others who are not familiar with the "TransWilts" line may be asking themselves too.  I fear this may be a long one!

As things stand at the moment, withdrawing the current trains that run between Swindon, Chippenham, Melksham, Trowbridge and Westbury would NOT release any resources for use elsewhere at a time they would be needed.  The line is at present, technically, run without a train; I have seen the wording "marginal time" used, and what that means is that the trains are run off-peak in the extreme. The availabilty of trains that aren't doing anything else is the governing factor, and NOT the times that passengers want to travel - in effect, the customer being served is the DfT who require two round trips a day (but Northbound ONLY on Sunday) and whist they gave some timing guidance to FGW on timing, they were willing to relax even that when asked. FGW do not see the passenger as their primary customer.

There is bound to be a very low ridership on a train service that runs at a time that is extreme off-peak and does not offer round trip (commute) options. Here is a graph that shows the times that trains start out on journeys and the relative loading - I have superimposed the start times of the TransWilts trains on the DfT's graph to put this line and the service it gets in context.
(http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/bystarttimex.jpg)
Let's put that into context.   How busy is the 06:35 Exeter to Exmouth?  (I choose that line because, I think, you're from Devon, Liam, and because it's a line that Andrew Griffiths of FGW often uses for comparison purposes when talking to us about the TransWilts).  And how busy would it be if the only two return trips back up from Exmouth were the 07:15 and the 19:20? And how busy would it be if, missing the 06:35 you had to wait for the 18:47?  My informed guess is that this skeleton service would be pretty empty. 

When you look into it, the timing BEFORE the morning and AFTER the evening peak is even more stupid than a service that runs before or after each peak would be. At least a service before or after each peak would allow for a normal working day for people who could be flexible.   But with an arrival in Swindon BEFORE the government-required time of 08:00, and a departure back that doesn't leave until after half past six, the working day cannot easily be slid to fit.

The timing and frequency of trains is key to their use and it is not a fair comparison to look at the utilisation of a twice-a-day service and extrapollate the figures to give you the alternative results for a train every 2 hours. Journey figures for the TransWilts well exceeded 100,000 journeys per annum in the last couple of years on just 5 round trips a day, compared to an estimated 8,000 journeys for this year based on the current two trips. That is real evidence of the sensitivity of the loading of a train service to the timing and frequency with which it runs.

But we need to look at future travel requirements and not back to the past in order to formulate an appropriate service. West Wiltshire - Warminster, Westbury, Trowbridge and Melksham - are growing rapidly and set to continue to grow for the next 20 years. Add in Frome - part of the same rail-connected group but just over the border in Somerset - and you have five towns with a strong commute requirement to Swindon, to Chippenham. From Swindon and Chippenham, there are travel requirements to Salisbury and to West Wiltshire. By bus, journey times are dreadful - 95 minutes Swindon to Trowbridge (v 35 minutes by train), and over 2 hours from Swindon to Salisbury (a train can do that in 70 minutes).  And try working out Salisbury to Chippenham, or Melksham to Westbury by bus if you have a few minutes to spare - I bet you'll be shocked. By train with a "dogleg", change in Bath - you'll be equally shocked to find that Swindon to Salisbury takes the same 2 hours that the bus takes.   The road network on the corridor is already saturated (and when the Westbury bypass is built, the consultants tell us there will be an extra 42% HGVs above natural growth added to the A350 through villages and towns to the North). In recent history, with a stable service of just 5 trains each way daily, ridership on the TransWilts line grew at between 10% and 35% per annum (compound, depending on which measures you look at) and all the data that I have points to this being a long term pattern that would have been sustained if the train service had been left unaltered - the market was far from saturated, and demographic and other changes would have boosted rather than depressed its use.

Having had the very worst - the shit end - of the timetable changes in 2006, I fail to see why we should take the butt yet again of the failure of [whoever] to specify the resources necessary to run a proper service.  Pulling the TransWilts services would not (as Liam has suggested) release a train for use elsewhere - it would simply add to the misery and depression caused by the lack of a decent service here.  And restoring an appropriate service on the TransWilts would be the very best use of the additional "143" resources.  Elsewhere, you'll see people writing that they don't want these trains on their lines. Hereabouts, you'll find a welcoming home for one of them and - mark my words - in 2 years time it would be packed to overcrowding.

Footnotes

On Open Access:  Nice idea .. has been looked at in some detail.  Issues involve the heavy admin / cost of doing this on a single-train service, depots, etc.  Also note discouraging "trade off" type fines if the open access operator delayed one of FGW's precious 125s, and the lack of co-operation that First would provide at their stations.  We saw this up to April 2006 at Swindon, with FGW staff actively obstructing the use of the Wessex Train service.

On resources: FGW are trying to have their cake and eat it; they got caught in a Dutch auction of "how few trains can we run a service on", and bid so low that they can't cope. I'm glad to see them putting their hands in their pockets and buying five EXTRA trains (where did that figure come from?) as that will mean that they will be able to provide a more robust service - assuming they continue to lease up to the limits set for that.  Driver resources are also raised as a question sometimes, with it taking a year to train new drivers. Since the frachise has been running for 15 months, they should easily have any new drivers they had to take on up and running by December '07.

On "FGW obviously not interested":  Actually, I think they ARE interested in running the service - although they would probably be first to admit that they're more concerned as getting as best possible a financial bung out of the DfT and WCC (Wiltshire County Council) as they can in order to do so.   [Other example - Severn Beach line]

I have been advised today that FGW are to lose more 158's than expected to be re-deployed in the North as has been mentioned on this board preciously. As has also been stated, FGW are to get 143's to help overcome the overcrowding which according to my infomant is not so acute as in the area where the 158's are going according to the DFT. But my informant understands FGW are to retain the Adelantes as no other TOC wants them and DfT have lent heavily on the ROSCO to secure a deal so that they can pinch more 158s from FGW to head North and provide the stored 143's to the West Country.

So if we are to loose even more 158s than previously thought, are 180s going to replace their present duties? One answer could be for 180s to continue operating Thames Valley Oxford/Cotswold services and some 165/166s head to the West. From what you are saying here though, as far as 'West' services are concerned it is looking more and more like a straight swap - modern 158s for clapped out 143s. Got any trashy clapped out trains you want shot of? Then send them down to FGW cos they will run them as they is cheap to run and any old rubbish will do for round here. What has the west country done to deserve such poor rail services???? 

It's really frustrating when for the same fare our trains are being downgraded. The DafT are a meddling bunch of [insert swear word here]

There are no 143's in storage, all 23 are operating for either FGW or Arriva. Northern have been storing a number of 142's which are of similar design and vintage. Is it these units that FGW will be taking on?

i work for fgw and there is some truth in the rumours about getting more pacer units.

they are going to be the 142's that northern are getting shot of and also the 142's that are currently stored in blackpool

it is not the choice of fgw they are being forced on them by the dft,fgw are trying to retain the 180's to use on pompey/cardiff services.

reference previous post about 165/166 units it would not be pheasable to run them on the west services as they cannot go to portsmouth/southampton due to the width ot the body

the plan is as it has always been 12 angel trains 158's are going to northern by december this was always the plan fgw retained them for 12 extra months to get the fleet more reliable following withdrawl from canton this is also the decision of the dft

I think the trade off of FGW keeping the 180s for Cardiff-Pompey services, releasing more 158s than originally planned in exchange for 142s is a price worth paying as these trains would only be operated at peak periods on Bristol commuter services and at last Cardiff-Southampton-Pompey finally gets decent length stock that it so desperately needs.

that is assuming nothing changes between now and december

you know what it is like things seem to change on a daily basis so watch this space ;)

In a way, that just might be good news for those of us who continue to campaign for an appropriate service within the FGW area - though I have to say that whilst we see some positive changes from time to time, we get a number of less positive changes too, such as what I consider to be retrograde steps in terms of stock age and comfort.  It's quite frustrating to hear visitors talk of the marvellous new trains in their areas and how much better they are than the previous ones when in our area the reverse has happened.

Link - Class 14x trains - what's the difference?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(train) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pacer_(train))

180s aren't cleared to Portsmouth though!

There is also the matter of short platforms and the fact that it is a total waste of a 125mph capable train!

A 5 car class 185 variant would be ideal as they have quick acceleration and are likely to be cleared into Portsmouth.

they are not cleared in to pompey yet but that is easy for them to sort out.

short platforms is not a problem either as 180,s have selective door opening

all this is still being discussed so we could still end up with bendy bus 142's

first dont like letting on what there intentions are especially to staff so we could still end up with more bendy bus pacer units

From what I have heard from the suit who is in charge of the Maintainance of the 180's is that these will sent back to the leasing company gradually during 2008. I wouldn't expect they'll be seen in Portsmouth after all!

Thats pretty much what Tony Miles reports in this month's Modern Railways and I see no reason not to believe him. He also reports that it is understood that FGW have fought hard to retain the 158s but that Dft have agreed with Northern that they are to have them.

Can't wait to see how FGW are going to run services come the December timetable change with around half their 158s gone coupled with the loss of 150s to Arriva last December. Keeping the 180s would have more or less solved this and considerably improved the Cardiff-Pompey service to a level it more than deserves.

Seems now all they are keeping the 180s for is to cover the late running HST refurbishment program.

Cardiff to Portsmouths should be 158s, and no less!  The 180s would have been an excellent resource on this mainline!  Arent the 158s nearly 15 years old now?!

At least, more like 17 years in some cases. They are good trains and are good enough for Cardiff-Portsmouth, but not as two cars however.

Whatever 158s they decide to keep they need to do something about the state of them in the short term before refurbishment... A lot of them currently scuttling around FGW resemble travelling toilets and thats before you get anywhere near the toilets which are 100 times worse! I know Wessex weren't perfect but FGW really do take the biscuit sometimes, it never surprises me the amount of people who moan on FGW about the state of service in some respect. It's not going to get people out of their cars is it!

This in my view is a breach of franchise. A year and a half on and not a single ex-Wessex piece of rolling stock has been refurbished. It surprises me that there are not more complaints about the state of local rolling stock. But then again its not surprising because at the moment passengers are just grateful any stock turns up at all no matter what states its in. It shouldnt be this way and its sad that FGW are allowed by the government to get away with providing the service they are. And judging by the amount of cancellation posts on this site these past few days its getting worse again.

Compared to SWT who, I think, have now completed their refurbishment on identical trains, mere months after receiving them. Meeting one at Salisbury after braving a FGW unit is liking see the oasis in the desert...

it is a joke all the ex tpe 2 & 3 car 158's swt got are now all refurbished to a very high standard
fgw however have had the tpe units longer and as yet not 1 has even got fgw wrote on it
i know they are going to get refurbed but the start of the programme seems to be getting further away.
i suppose with all the planned cancellations lately due to staff shortage they will not miss a few units while the work is being done.
latest rumour running around fgw depots is they will lose the franchise soon and virgin are sniffing around to see if they can snatch it

Oh if only that were true! Virgin have money to burn after losing XC and not getting East Coast.

apparently it is all the talk up at new street,so you never know what will happen.
i cannot see fgw keeping hold of this franchise,planned cancellations,paying crew stupid hours to cover turns i.e 24 hours to cover a 6 hour turn this situation cant go on for much longer before the dft pull the plug surely?

Well we live in hope. We have no idea what is really going behind the scenes at FGW at the moment but it has to be said that even with the best will in the world things are not going well. Cancellations due to lack of train crew & unserviceable stock are increasing again, unrealible stock breaking down (143s mainly), filthy tatty rolling stock (153s, 158s), overcrowding due to shortened trains since December, HST refurb well behind schedule and not a single 'West' fleet unit has been refurbished yet despite us being continually told its going to happen since they won the franchise back in January of last year!

This franchise desperately needs investment from a company prepared to invest its money to get people to travel by rail rather than trying to run the railway on a shoestring to make a profit and pay the government a premium. Virgin is the ideal company who have the money to do this and the enthusiasm. They have pretty much achieved 'Mission Impossible' with the West Coast line and have seen huge increases in the number of passengers, particularly between London-Manchester. Maybe its time to give them a turn with GW. All the government needs now is an excuse to revoke the franchise from First. I've listed a few above to help them out!

What a lot of people fail to grasp is that the all blame for this shambles lies with the government. They are the ones to stipulate the contract and they are the ones who after consideration awarded the franchise to First. If say Virgin or someone like Arriva had committed to pay back 1 or 2 billion more than First will they would have won it. But we would I bet be in the same situation as we are now. Trains with no driver or train manager (or both) Trains late due the infrastructure falling to pieces etc.



Hmm That old chestnut Railway rumour, I'd wouldn't mind a fiver for the amount of times I've got off the train on my way to work to be told by a member of platform staff " have you heard Alison Forester's gone" "First have been kicked out" "Virgin take over next week" the list goes on. As long as First do what they are contracted to do then they are going nowhere! (er! no pun intended)

Hmm That old chestnut Railway rumour, I'd wouldn't mind a fiver for the amount of times I've got off the train on my way to work to be told by a member of platform staff " have you heard Alison Forester's gone" "First have been kicked out" "Virgin take over next week" the list goes on. As long as First do what they are contracted to do then they are going nowhere! (er! no pun intended)


you have hit the nail on the head doing what they are contracted to do!

this they are clearly not doing so we live in hope the plug is pulled on them

Alison Forster told me in an e-mail that the refurbishment program would start in May. Then I later heard June, July and August. Have any units been despatched to Doncaster or Cardiff yet? Did I really see a 143 in First livery a few weeks ago? No doubt an external re-paint or re-vinyl only if I did.

Meanwhile some of the TPE 158s seem to be in a worse condition than the ex-Wessex fleet that they are to eventually replace. My train this morning was late due to problems with one of the engines. On arrival at Temple Meads it was met by two fitters in orange overalls. This is now a regular occurence. And FGW had the cheek to blame Arriva for poor maintenance when it was brought in-house.  >:(

You did see a blue 143 it was badly damaged with graffiti and it was easier to re-paint in the first blue rather than to try to clean it off

End of August was mentioned somewhere on this site as being the date for the first unit to head to Doncaster. If First and Dft had got themselves sorted out quicker last year with what 158 stock is staying and which is leaving (none should be leaving in my opinion. If they have too much stock then join them up as three car trains like Wessex did to ease overcrowding not just in morning and evening peaks but also at weekends) then they may have got their units into Doncaster before SWT got their fleet in.

158761 went to Doncaster on Wednesday for refurb.

Good news...look forward to finally seeing the results.

This is indeed the case.  

Hi, Spike - and welcome to the forum here. FGW have a refurbishment program that's just in its early stages; I'll let others tell you why it's starting now rather than earlier or later.  Should be through in about a year - all done by September '08 - with the extra class 142 units that have bene widely discussed filling in for the year for the higher proportion of long term units in the shops.

Concerning the refurbishment - FGW tell me that they are going to be doing a whole raft of mechanical updates too (in order to improve availability and operational matters as much as they can) and not just interior refits.  "We have taken a look at the other refits that have been done on other fleets for similar trains, and we have selected the package that has proven best in each case rather than delaying the work by designing a new package" - I may have paraphrased slighly there, but that is the substance of a verbal quote which I heard spoken by an FGW director.

http://news.independent.co.uk/business/news/article2944296.ece

Just another story in today's Independent on Sunday confirming that the 180's will be leaving us soon. From what Ive read here and elsewhere this will be as soon as the HST refurb is complete which is running late, just like everything else on the regions rails, to be around Feb/Mar time.

Still at least we have 142s to look forward to!  :D

The local Bath Chronicle is getting in on this story as well:

http://www.thisisbath.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=180730&command=displayContent&sourceNode=227209&contentPK=18351318&folderPk=106757&pNodeId=227220#views

From the December timetable 11 Class 180 "adelantes" diagrams will be replaced by 10 HST diagrams facilitating 17.7% more capacity in the morning peak and 11.4% in the evening peak. This will lead to the phasing out of the unreliable and low capacity Class 180 fleet and replacing them with high performing MTU powered HSTs one of which may be coming from the GNER fleet but not until December 2008. Another HST may result from investigations going on into the feasability to convert the displaced buffet cars into full passenger carrying vehicles and use of "spare" power cars.

They really dont need to do that. They are now able to convert the electrics on M3b ex-West Coast stock which runs on a different electrical system to HSTs so all you need is to find some power cars. Where from I dont know when you take into consideration that XC are searching for five sets and East Midlands is to have an additional set.

It is possible that if East Coast were to have additional sets of Class 90s and Mk3b bought in earlier they could free up a couple of HSTs where those diagrams only ever have them operating under the wires. But they have to have a minimum stock for Aberdeen/Inverness and Skipton/Hull/Harrogate services that are not under wires.

I find it absolutely amazing that a few years ago it was all get rid of these old 70s pieces of rolling stock and replace them with Voyagers/Adelantes. Now the government and rail companies cant get enough of them. Proof if it were needed what great trains the HST is which is being shown by how well the refurbishments of both the FGW and GNER fleet look with people thinking they are brand new trains, pretty much are with the new MTU engines. Bet the government wish more were built in the late 70s early 80s rather than BRs fleet wish list for HSTs was dramatically cut due to cost.