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All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture Overseas => Topic started by: stuving on July 01, 2018, 20:05:45



Title: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: stuving on July 01, 2018, 20:05:45
There's a report in the Journal de Dimanche today saying the channel tunnel company (currently called Getlink, for some reason) is looking into low-cost train services. I can't see it yet on the English-language continental sites, but presumably they will cover it soon.

The idea is to avoid some of the costs - high access charges on high-speed lines, fancy trains, staffing above the minimum, and using main terminals (if that costs more as well as being hard to get). So a slower service between, it suggests, Roissy CDG and Stratford could cost 25-30% less.

On a related (if only a bit) topic, I'd missed that DB have renounced any plans to operate direct trains through the tunnels any time soon. This was in the Independent on June 16th (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/london-frankfurt-cologne-train-deutsche-bahn-db-eurostar-cancelled-shelved-a8394806.html):
Quote
Germany’s state rail operator has shelved plans for international high-speed services between London, Cologne and Frankfurt due to “changes” in the “economic environment”, The Independent has learned.

Deutsche Bahn (DB) said the services to London would now “not be on the agenda in the foreseeable future”, despite just last year saying they were “still interested”.

The company would neither confirm nor deny whether uncertainty caused by floundering Brexit talks had played a part in their decision to mothball the project, saying they did not want to wade into politics.

DB had already begun early preparations to run the trains, successfully obtaining an operating certificate to run services through the Channel Tunnel in 2013 and even going as far as to display one of its sleek InterCity Express (ICE) units at London St Pancras to drum up publicity.

DB were also quoted as saying:
Quote
“The decisive factors are technical and economic reasons: the ICE BR 407 is not yet registered in Belgium and the economic environment has changed significantly as a result of the price competition with low-cost airlines.

Not very convincing, is it? I could believe our old friend "uncertainty over the various effects of Brexit", though.


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: grahame on July 01, 2018, 20:35:58
The idea is to avoid some of the costs - high access charges on high-speed lines, fancy trains, staffing above the minimum, and using main terminals (if that costs more as well as being hard to get). So a slower service between, it suggests, Roissy CDG and Stratford could cost 25-30% less.

Hmmm ... the RyanAir of the railways? How about going beyond the conventional?    Motherwell - Carlisle - Skipton - Shipley - Outwood - Grantham - Peterborough - Cambridge North - Ebbsfleet - Westernhanger ...


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on July 01, 2018, 20:58:24
There's a report in the Journal de Dimanche today saying the channel tunnel company (currently called Getlink, for some reason)

GET for Groupe EuroTunnel, apparently...


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: eightf48544 on July 02, 2018, 10:38:51
Perhaps cynic that I am, should we be wondering if the Channel Tunnel will survive Brsxit?



Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: grahame on November 12, 2022, 14:33:30
Perhaps cynic that I am, should we be wondering if the Channel Tunnel will survive Brsxit?



It looks like it is doing, in a stilted form

I met a lady on a train today who was/is actively involved in London to Zurich opportunities and we were having a really good chat about the market / marketing, loadings potentials (versus airline costs) etc, what the times /schedules would look like, etc.   The real killer if the extended need these days for security and passport control post-Brexit.   There's an irony in that Switzerland is not in the European Union. 


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Electric train on November 12, 2022, 18:06:22
Perhaps cynic that I am, should we be wondering if the Channel Tunnel will survive Brsxit?



It looks like it is doing, in a stilted form

I met a lady on a train today who was/is actively involved in London to Zurich opportunities and we were having a really good chat about the market / marketing, loadings potentials (versus airline costs) etc, what the times /schedules would look like, etc.   The real killer if the extended need these days for security and passport control post-Brexit.   There's an irony in that Switzerland is not in the European Union. 

Eurostar Yellow announce a few months ago they were looking at Lonon into Germany services with onward connections via their Eurostar Red services; so Switzerland is perhaps something they are also looking at.

Switzerland is in the Schengen Area, something the UK was never part of, so we did always had control of our boarders

Eurostar and Thalys have merged, in 2023 will be under a single brand Eurostar


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 28, 2022, 17:53:01
Perhaps cynic that I am, should we be wondering if the Channel Tunnel will survive Brsxit?



It looks like it is doing, in a stilted form

I met a lady on a train today who was/is actively involved in London to Zurich opportunities and we were having a really good chat about the market / marketing, loadings potentials (versus airline costs) etc, what the times /schedules would look like, etc.   The real killer if the extended need these days for security and passport control post-Brexit.   There's an irony in that Switzerland is not in the European Union. 

Eurostar Yellow announce a few months ago they were looking at Lonon into Germany services with onward connections via their Eurostar Red services; so Switzerland is perhaps something they are also looking at.

Switzerland is in the Schengen Area, something the UK was never part of, so we did always had control of our boarders

Eurostar and Thalys have merged, in 2023 will be under a single brand Eurostar
Is that referring to the Brussels – Berlin sleeper that's just been announced?


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Electric train on December 29, 2022, 08:27:39
Perhaps cynic that I am, should we be wondering if the Channel Tunnel will survive Brsxit?



It looks like it is doing, in a stilted form

I met a lady on a train today who was/is actively involved in London to Zurich opportunities and we were having a really good chat about the market / marketing, loadings potentials (versus airline costs) etc, what the times /schedules would look like, etc.   The real killer if the extended need these days for security and passport control post-Brexit.   There's an irony in that Switzerland is not in the European Union. 

Eurostar Yellow announce a few months ago they were looking at Lonon into Germany services with onward connections via their Eurostar Red services; so Switzerland is perhaps something they are also looking at.

Switzerland is in the Schengen Area, something the UK was never part of, so we did always had control of our boarders

Eurostar and Thalys have merged, in 2023 will be under a single brand Eurostar
Is that referring to the Brussels – Berlin sleeper that's just been announced?

It does not look like its part of the Eurostar group.

It is interesting to see; European Sleeper Coöperatie U.A which seems to be a Cooperative of a number of players.   Could it lead to London into Europe sleeper service?  within 10 years maybe 


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: grahame on December 29, 2022, 11:13:33
From The Londonist (https://londonist.com/london/transport/sleeper-train-london-to-berlin)

Quote
A new overnight train route has just been announced, making it easier to get to Berlin and other European cities from London.

Launching in May 2023, the European Sleeper service runs Brussels-Antwerp-Rotterdam-Amsterdam-Hanover-Berlin. With Eurostar offering direct trains between London and Brussels-Midi, this means you can get from St Pancras to Berlin with just one change.

The overnight service leaves Brussels-Midi at 7.22pm on Monday, Wednesday and Friday evenings, arriving at Berlin at 6.48am the next morning — so the Friday evening service sounds ideal for kickstarting a weekend away. Eurostar currently runs around nine direct services between London and Brussels-Midi a day, with that journey taking just over two hours. So... we're thinking leave London mid-morning, spend an afternoon in Brussels, then sleep off all those Delirium Tremens you've drunk, on the onward sleeper to Berlin.

Return journeys from Berlin to Brussels depart on Sunday, Tuesday and Thursday evenings, arriving in Brussels at 9.27am the next morning.

Even better, there are plans to extend the service to Dresden and Prague in 2024.


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: stuving on December 29, 2022, 11:52:45
While they say "European Sleeper is organised as a cooperative", that's not in the sense of a load of artisans who do all the real work and also get together to do marketing etc. It's more like a company in the normal sense, owned and funded by shareholders. Except maybe thy have found a way of not vesting ownership with the funders - which somehow doesn't sound so noble looked at that way. They go on (https://www.europeansleeper.eu/en/about-european-sleeper):

Quote
In May 2021 and within 15 minutes, European Sleeper raised €500,000 in seed capital, by selling shares to more than 350 small investors from various countries in Europe and beyond. An enthusiastic night train community, that is actively involved in the company. In 2022, we again got fully funded in our sharefunding for sleeping cars and raised €2 million.
I wonder how much train you get for €2 million?

Apart from the ownership (unknown), the main difference I can see is not the common interest they refer to. Interest in that sense is common enough among shareholders. A community interest has to be based on a group who have something else in common before getting involved in this business - trade, where they live, something they all do. Is there really a community in that sensewho use sleepers?

In this case the main difference from a normal small company is more likely to be that they don't really expect to make money, or get any back. But that's been common enough too, e.g. in local projects like flood defence and drainage, or building ports - or railways! Also, unless you have a political ideal that demands equality, you always end up with most of the money coming from a few individuals; that may be true here too. So all this is mainly a matter of using now-fashionable words for an old idea.

Their partner Sunweb, on the other hand, will be looking to make something I'm sure. They seem to be a package holiday group, but again using new words to avoid saying that (and a dose of ethics, part real and part maketing). Their forté seems to be niche marketing and running one-off of limited runs of holidays to match the market size, be that Dutch oldies going south for the sunshine (Primavera) or London twentysomethings wanting a kind of gap year with boutique hotels (Eliza was here).


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: stuving on January 01, 2023, 14:40:15
Today's Sunday Times says the boss of HS1, Dyan Crowther, has been talking about trying to "get more destinations on the departure board", using Eurostar or other operators. This would be two or three a day, presumably shared among destinations, and to popular places for self-planned travel rather than just via package operators. Bordeaux for its wine region is the one chosen for the headline, but I suspect that's just the journalists' idea of their readers.

If HS1 do see it as in their interest to make their offer to operators more attractive, and put their weight behind developing new routes and pushing for border formalities that use less time and space in (their) St Pancras International, that can only help.


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Electric train on January 01, 2023, 16:27:13
Today's Sunday Times says the boss of HS1, Dyan Crowther, has been talking about trying to "get more destinations on the departure board", using Eurostar or other operators. This would be two or three a day, presumably shared among destinations, and to popular places for self-planned travel rather than just via package operators. Bordeaux for its wine region is the one chosen for the headline, but I suspect that's just the journalists' idea of their readers.

If HS1 do see it as in their interest to make their offer to operators more attractive, and put their weight behind developing new routes and pushing for border formalities that use less time and space in (their) St Pancras International, that can only help.

HS1 certainly has the capacity, not certain if Eurotunnel has much in the way of extra capacity to drastically increase what is already timetabled for Eurostar (including Disney and Ski specials) especially during the daytime at certain times of the year, Easter, and summer months.  That's not to say there are not the options to increase capacity the departure / arrival times may not be a popular times and Eurostar may have to give up some of their paths.

The through put of the HS1 departure lounge make for additional limitations with Eurostar providing all of the train operator customer facing staff, any additional operators may have to pay Eurostar or HS1 take the station operation over.


However I am in favour of more operators and destinations to make a true TransManche Link, it would fantastic to have a sleeper service for example depart London at 10pm to arrive say Berlin the next morning



Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: 1st fan on January 01, 2023, 17:18:32
Today's Sunday Times says the boss of HS1, Dyan Crowther, has been talking about trying to "get more destinations on the departure board", using Eurostar or other operators. This would be two or three a day, presumably shared among destinations, and to popular places for self-planned travel rather than just via package operators. Bordeaux for its wine region is the one chosen for the headline, but I suspect that's just the journalists' idea of their readers.

If HS1 do see it as in their interest to make their offer to operators more attractive, and put their weight behind developing new routes and pushing for border formalities that use less time and space in (their) St Pancras International, that can only help.

HS1 certainly has the capacity, not certain if Eurotunnel has much in the way of extra capacity to drastically increase what is already timetabled for Eurostar (including Disney and Ski specials) especially during the daytime at certain times of the year, Easter, and summer months.  That's not to say there are not the options to increase capacity the departure / arrival times may not be a popular times and Eurostar may have to give up some of their paths.

The through put of the HS1 departure lounge make for additional limitations with Eurostar providing all of the train operator customer facing staff, any additional operators may have to pay Eurostar or HS1 take the station operation over.


However I am in favour of more operators and destinations to make a true TransManche Link, it would fantastic to have a sleeper service for example depart London at 10pm to arrive say Berlin the next morning



Yeah except that the Nightstar project was a non starter (saying that, they did make a decent start on the rolling stock) The specifications for tunnel sleeper trains were complicated from memory as they had to comply with standards of each country they were expecting to be travelling through. On top of that the hotel power requirements were huge, still I agree it would be very nice to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Electric train on January 01, 2023, 20:33:47
Today's Sunday Times says the boss of HS1, Dyan Crowther, has been talking about trying to "get more destinations on the departure board", using Eurostar or other operators. This would be two or three a day, presumably shared among destinations, and to popular places for self-planned travel rather than just via package operators. Bordeaux for its wine region is the one chosen for the headline, but I suspect that's just the journalists' idea of their readers.

If HS1 do see it as in their interest to make their offer to operators more attractive, and put their weight behind developing new routes and pushing for border formalities that use less time and space in (their) St Pancras International, that can only help.

HS1 certainly has the capacity, not certain if Eurotunnel has much in the way of extra capacity to drastically increase what is already timetabled for Eurostar (including Disney and Ski specials) especially during the daytime at certain times of the year, Easter, and summer months.  That's not to say there are not the options to increase capacity the departure / arrival times may not be a popular times and Eurostar may have to give up some of their paths.

The through put of the HS1 departure lounge make for additional limitations with Eurostar providing all of the train operator customer facing staff, any additional operators may have to pay Eurostar or HS1 take the station operation over.


However I am in favour of more operators and destinations to make a true TransManche Link, it would fantastic to have a sleeper service for example depart London at 10pm to arrive say Berlin the next morning



Yeah except that the Nightstar project was a non starter (saying that, they did make a decent start on the rolling stock) The specifications for tunnel sleeper trains were complicated from memory as they had to comply with standards of each country they were expecting to be travelling through. On top of that the hotel power requirements were huge, still I agree it would be very nice to do.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nightstar_(train)

The world has changed a bit in the 30 years since the tunnel opened and near on 40 years since the rail link between the UK and Europe was commenced.

First now we have HS1 and not the original slow route.
Europe has a much bigger network of highspeed lines
There is a bigger green agenda now.
The regulations on the rolling stock has changed the Siemens Class 374 do not have all of the inter coach fire doors that the Class 373 have

I was not advocating the same "Regional" type of service of the 1990's I was suggesting a London St Pancras to places like Berlin.  Who knows, although there is no direct connection between HS1 and HS2 being planned in years to come a link could be established which would allow a Scotland / North of England to Paris sleeper

 


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: 1st fan on January 03, 2023, 01:37:29
Yep the question I keep coming back to is would there be enough of a market for this overnight service to make it viable?


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Electric train on January 03, 2023, 07:37:42
Yep the question I keep coming back to is would there be enough of a market for this overnight service to make it viable?

I would think that a London - Amsterdam sleeper could be although at just over 4 hours there would need to be layover time at each end.   Other longer destinations Berlin even on into Warsaw, Prague could be.

Perhaps not a service every night, if it was priced right for the city break market could be a good choice and the right nights for business travellers


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on January 03, 2023, 10:27:22
The Austrian NightJets typically do some shunting halfway along their route, so you get things like Innsbruck/Vienna - Cologne/Hamburg combinations. Each of the four combinations is a mixture of stock, typically two day coaches, two couchettes and just one 'proper' sleeper.  As someone who is too old to endure day coaches or couchettes, that tells me that the clientele is a lot younger than I am.


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Jamsdad on January 03, 2023, 14:28:56
Well there certainly seems to be good demand for the new Continental sleeper services, and our two services in UK ( Penzance and Scotland) are generally well filled. I would gladly use a sleeper through the tunnel, much more civilized than having to get  to St Pancras  for the first morning  service at some godawful time !


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: 1st fan on January 04, 2023, 18:34:32
As I said in a previous post, I like the idea and would consider using it.

Somebody who seriously looked at this was London Direct Sleeper Group (London Sleeper Trading Limited) and Michael Guerra who was a driving force behind this has made comments about why it never happened on the Business Traveller comments section.

https://www.businesstraveller.com/forums/topic/sleeper-trains-from-st-pancras/ (https://www.businesstraveller.com/forums/topic/sleeper-trains-from-st-pancras/)

Quote from: Business Traveller
With apologies to John, to whom this was an emailed reply:
I spent 4 years (and a good deal of my own money) running a research project on exactly the same thing (the London Direct Sleeper Group). The project was wound up last year after we completed a business plan. I spent a good deal of time talking to everyone: UK and French government officials, EU bureaucrats, train manufacturers, security consultants, government security customs and immigration agencies etc. It was a tortuous process with no one wanting to give anything away. However we were able to come up with a business model that suited almost everyone.

First, the trains will need to be capable of 300km/h; this is because they need to run fast enough to only need one Eurostar path. As sleepers can only accommodate 20-30% of the numbers of passengers per unit length of train, compared with a day train, the units would have to be double-deck to be more cost-effective. The Nightstar service model was doomed before it turned a wheel because of the weight of the rolling stock, slowness and the requirement for external traction (sometimes double-headed). As they were also built to a minimum UK loading gauge they were very confined inside, in addition to all the extra equipment they needed inside. For that reason any night trains running from St Pancras will need to be high-speed multiple units, not loco-hauled stock. As multiple units running to a variety of destinations in Europe the trains would have to be fitted for at least 12 signalling systems and for running under 4 overhead voltages. This is a lot easier than it used to be. The also need to be certificated for long high-speed tunnels, which requires the fitment of all kinds of specialised safety equipment. Needless to say they would be very expensive trains. In short, you cannot use loco-hauled ex-Wagons Lits stock through the Channel Tunnel. But even with all that there is the fundamental issue of security.

Every man, woman and child travelling on a passenger train through the Channel Tunnel must past through airport style security (luggage irradiation & metal detector arch). So that if your sleeper was able to leave St Pancras it wouldn’t be able to return with any passengers unless the station they leave from has an equivalent security check to that at St Pancras, Paris Nord or Bruxelles Midi. This is a not inconsiderable infrastructure expense. We suggested running security checks from the train, but unless you were at a terminus station the platform dwells would have been far too long, we also looked into near-future scanning technology but that was not backed as ‘not being the same as’ the current Eurostar agreement. It became an impasse. Technologically nearly everything was possible today, but for the security arrangement. It is interesting that it is possible to ride trains from Stockholm to Sevilla without having to show your passport or having your baggage irradiated due to the Schengen Zone agreement, but as the UK is outside that anyone wanting to run a train through to the continent has to deal with Fortress Britain, which is very difficult to unpick. Paris and Bruxelles are too close to run night trains to, so our business plan is with DB, who might have the resources to build security infrastructure at Koln of Frankfurt, or Berlin. They are really the only active players looking at new services; however with the current economic crisis it is unlikely to happen very soon. But I live in hope.

As to your own research, I’m afraid that although there is ready market for such a service (however, you would have to run 70-80% full every night on 3% interest on around a 1bn Euro investment on 8 routes) you will probably come to the same conclusions. The security issue is the real difficulty, and I certainly spent too much time on that with absolutely no movement.

There are further comments on pages 2 & 3. See this brief mention about passenger data sharing and safety (page 10)*:

 https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmhaff/826/826.pdf
 (https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmselect/cmhaff/826/826.pdf)

Seems security was the impassable stumbling block.


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: Mark A on January 04, 2023, 19:05:26
Sounds as though it'll have to be the 'Citalian Express' mode of operation then, though sans Folkestone Harbour branch.

http://www.eastbank.org.uk/citalia.htm

Mark


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: eightonedee on January 05, 2023, 10:22:01
Quote
Technologically nearly everything was possible today, but for the security arrangement. It is interesting that it is possible to ride trains from Stockholm to Sevilla without having to show your passport or having your baggage irradiated due to the Schengen Zone agreement, but as the UK is outside that anyone wanting to run a train through to the continent has to deal with Fortress Britain, which is very difficult to unpick.

Am I the only person who has wondered for years about the foolishness (?) of "Fortress Britain"?

The hysteria generated by the arrival of 45,000 "illegals" in a nation of 67,500,000 is extraordinary when you look at those two figures side-by-side.

Notwithstanding this "fortress" policy, I have (if I recall correctly) undertaken about 20 return cross-channel (or North Sea) ferry trips in private cars from Britain since the mid-1970s and never once been searched or scanned, even though this has been in a variety of combinations of occupants of the car I was travelling in. This included a few birdwatching trips when we would have been a car-full of scruffy males who surely must have been worth a look! I have been searched thoroughly three times elsewhere. Once was travelling by ferry to Northern Ireland for a friend's wedding in the troubles (mid-1980s) when all vehicles were "searched" by a sniffer dog, and twice on birding trips (see above) in the same decade when travelling between Scandinavian countries. The first was coming off the Helsingor-Helsingborg ferry, the second crossing from Norway into Finland in the far north, at a crossing point well-known in the birding fraternity (or at least those who liked trips to the far north of Europe) for the officiousness of the Finnish border staff. In both cases the opposite journeys were entirely unchecked, indeed on the Finnish trip we went form Sweden, into Finland, onto Norway, then back to Finland when our thorough check was undertaken. The first entry into Finland at a different point was only marked by a sign and change in the colour of the road-marking

If all our continental neighbours now think open borders are safe, perhaps it is time we did a "robust risk assessment". Think of all the expense (both in delay and border infrastructure) we might save.

Smelling salts for Mr Farage please.......


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: grahame on January 05, 2023, 10:42:18
Am I the only person who has wondered for years about the foolishness (?) of "Fortress Britain"?

No, absolutely not. But train services through the Channel Tunnel and its effect on them are a tiny element of the issue, and one which has its agenda limited by "Fortress Britain" constraints; the services cannot in themselves change that policy and to that extent are unable to change things or take the lead in such changes being such a small element even if they wished to.

I may be following up with a much longer and more general post somewhere ... if not on this thread, I will add a link.


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: grahame on January 06, 2023, 09:58:17
I may be following up with a much longer and more general post somewhere ... if not on this thread, I will add a link.

OK - deep breath

It is horrendous to hear of people drowning in the sea between France and England, though for some reading this (which I am likely to share outside the Coffee Shop) they will not feel that connected with the people who die as those people are unknown to them, with a different home language, a different religion, a different skin colour, and are "illegal" which (of course) you, dear reader are not. So "they must be stopped" together with putting those nasty people-traffickers who put them at risk and bring them to England out of business.  What a major task, and just look how tough our government can be ... rattling their patrol boats, putting people into camps for long periods, and shipping them off to Africa.  And real actions to address the issue is needed, furthermore action that is popular with many of their core voters and a sizeable chunk of swingable voters too, especially if sold as a battle being fought on their behalf.

But hang on a moment.  Let's take a step back and take a wider view and see if there is an alternative

Some facts

1. This country is short of care and medical workers, agricultural staff, bus and lorry drivers. In many other areas such as the hospitality business and retail you'll find desperate adverts looking for staff.  You'll find things not happening because of staff shortages.

2. France, where the boats are coming from, is a member of the Schengen zone which offers a freedom of movement around Europe. Last Autumn, I travelled across that zone and once out of England and into France (or Italy or Germany by air) movement over borders was straightforward - almost un-noticed.  Portugal, Spain, France, Italy, Switzerland, Austria, Slovenia, Germany and Belgium. For sure, you could tell which country you were in with things like mandatory mask wearing (and enforced) in Spain but no such rule in France or Portugal.

3.  We are talking about 1 person in a boat versus 1,500 residents each year.

Across Schengen, there are pockets of employment and unemployment, and there are some brief border monitoring as well as such things as security checks even with certain countries in the zone.  And I note that Switzerland and Norway and Iceland, though within the zone, are not within the EU.

Taking that wider view, what would the outcome be if the UK was to join Schengen? Would it lead to mass unemployment amongst Border Force staff? The UK being overrun by people who long term have to be supported by the state?  Jobs being filled which are currently avaialble? The Conservative party loosing votes and supporters?  Danger in The Channel being slashed?  People trafficers being put out of business between Calais and Dover overnight?  Eurostar train services being able to increase, with a network of daily and nightly services service much more than a single station in England?   Easier flow of goods across The Channel with a saving of costs? 

Or is there even a solution in helping people feel that they don't need to leave their distant home and take desperate risks?

Edit - spelling correction


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: onthecushions on January 06, 2023, 11:47:48

Just wondering why if Schengen is so good are 45 000 people a year so desperate to leave it that they will hazard their lives and pay a fortune to escape it?

The answer may rest in the European rules about social insurance, which effectively limit free movement.

Our population problem is that we have 67.5M people but only housing for perhaps 55M. Tough if you are low paid.

The EU is a protectionist Cartel, sometimes even against its members. Why were DB ICE's stopped from working through the Channel Tunnel?


OTC


Title: Re: Competing Channel tunnel trains?
Post by: grahame on January 24, 2023, 21:20:53
Merged Thalys and Eurostar rebrand as Eurostar.  From CityAM (https://www.cityam.com/eurostar-announces-new-name-and-brand-identity-as-eurostar/)

Quote
Eurostar has unveiled its new brand identity complete with a logo, symbol and name: Eurostar.

The high-speed rail line’s regeneration includes bringing in  French-Belgian high-speed train operator  Thalys and Eurostar under one company name, the Eurostar Group.

Announcing the move on Tuesday, all of its 51 trains will carry a new star symbol by the end of the year, inspired by l’Etoile du Nord which inked Paris, Brussels and Amsterdam.



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