Great Western Coffee Shop

This board is for "London to the West - Services to and from Westbury, Taunton, Exeter, Newton Abbot, Totnes, Plymouth and Cornwall (Other operators services to Exeter and Plymouth - posts welcome)", but what would you call that line?

It was suggested in another thread (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=20133.0) that I was confusing people by calling it the "West of England Main Line" because that name rightly applies to the line used by the regional trains from Exeter via Cranbrook, Crewkerne and Clapham Junction to Waterloo.   So I thought I would have a look at an old reference book.  But, alas, that turned out to have no name for it. I have heard the name "Great Way Round" applied to the GWR line from London via Bristol to the West Country - clearly it's not that line. It's not the Great Western Main Line either, as that runs via Swindon.   Problem - so let's have a poll.

Well, the NR Sectional Appendix quotes it as being MLN (short for MAINLINE) and its in 4 parts: MLN1; MLN2; MLN3 and MLN4.  I admit it does go via Bristol (or the Great Way Round).

But if it goes via Bristol it does not go via Pewsey. Unless it takes a very obscure route!

No. But it starts as MLN1 (Paddington to Reading) and ends at Plymouth as MLN2 (Cogload Junction to Plymouth).  So in fairness, a lot of the route is MLN.

Regional trains my ar*e

The 159s be the proud successors to the West Country and Merchant Navy Pacifics of the bleddy glorious West of England Main Line from Waterloo to Exeter - and one day soon to Plymouth via Okehampton

A pox on yer Kings and Castles and yer Berks and Hants - the Southern will return (and we be starting from Woody Bay, so watch yer backsides).

Umberleigh will be two track once more!!!

Errr, nurse, where’s my medicine....?

The Peninsular Direct Mainline?

Although it is the route most trains take, I wouldn't regard it as a single line.  The "Main Line" from Paddington to Penzance has always been via Bristol and even after the Berks and Hants route was completed in 2006, via Bristol was still "Main Line" and this is where the ELR "MLN" came from.  The names of the route from Reading to Cogload Junctions reflect the way it was cobbled together: 

Basisngstoke Branch - Reading to Southcote Junction.

Berks and Hants Line - Southcote Junction to Stert Junction.

Stert and Westbury Line - Stert Junction to Westbury.

Weymouth Line - Westbury to Castle Cary.

Castle Cary and Langport Line - Castle Cary to Cogload Junction.


The use of such names these days would be confusing to the public but I think does help explain why the route to Penzance via Westbury has never been given an official name.  I'd tend to just say Great Western Main Line to Reading, Berks & Hants* to Cogload Junction and Great Western Main Line again to Penzance.


*Although the GWR line only covered the section of the route from Southcote Junction to Stert Junction, it has for as long as I can remember been used to describe the route from Reading to Cogload Junction.

As for "West of England Main Line" I do seem to remember it used in conversation for Paddington to Penzance (although this may have included both via Bristol and Westbury) many years ago before South West Trains (or maybe Network SouthEast) decided to use it as a brand for the route from Waterloo.

Grockle Western Railway

The Cream on first before Jam line  ;)

I'm assuming Colin is short for Cornwall Mainline? In which case it gets my vote!

And we're 15 hours into the poll and nobody has yet suggested Trainy McTrainline. Impressive.

 ;D

Actually, no. It was just a silly choice of what I once heard described as the most un-sexy name to give to a boy child. I did wonder about suggesting a girl's name too ...

That would have to be Daphne. Or Demelza...

Oh, and the Colin comment was firmly tongue in cheek. Reminds me of the Tommy Cooper story:

"They say every fifth person in the world is Chinese, But that can't be right because there's five in our family - Mum, Dad, me, Hung Lee and Colin. I suspect it's Colin..."

I voted for Plymouth main line, reluctantly since West of England main line would IMO be more suitable, but has already been used for the Waterloo to Exeter route.
It is debatable if the Waterloo to Exeter service is worthy of such a grand name, it kooks to me like a single track branch, worked by regional DMUs.

With the Cornish connection how about The Colin and TrevOR?  Cornwall Mainline Trevithick Originated Railway!

I am very much aware of the Southern v Western rivalry between the two lines from London to Exeter.

Sadly (for I was brought up Southern) the old LSWR route via Salisbury and (de facto) has been degraded from a true main line to a secondary main line, or a regional railway.  I would not go so far as to categorise it as a "branch", though on days that the only services operating terminate at Yeovil Junction with nothing on to Exeter, then it is a branch.  I also question "full main line" status for a line capable of handling less that 2 trains each way per hour.

Undoubtedly, the Southern route to Exeter and Plymouth once was a true main line. And undoubtedly the closure of a significant section in the middle, eliminating its ability to provide an alternative route to the major city of Plymouth, was a poor decision in hindsight - a closure too far, and a closure that was decided on based on cold logic, but rather on dogma and / or the heart of the Western victor in the battle for rails to the west.

None of which provides an answer to "what do we call the line via Pewsey?".   Many thanks for your suggestions and comments so far.

It would be the Great Western Main Line via the B&H [Berks & Hants] but in order to brand the line unfortunately, South Western have the South West Mainline and have branded it as the 'West of England line' meaning the 2 obvious choices are in use, so we're stuck with something like the "West Country Main Line".

So, the overwhelming majority in the poll are in favour of a name that is already taken.

Perhaps "What could it be called", rather than "should".

The name "West of England Line" referring to the line from Basingstoke to Exeter has a history dating back to 1923 Grouping, It may have been in common use in LSWR days too when, prior to the GWR cutoffs being built, the LSWR was the shortest and and often quickest route to Exeter.

Somewhat silly to have two different lines with the same name. More confusion.

Spoiler alert.   If you have not yet voted, please do not read on.


Thank you for telling everyone how it's going, even if they have not voted yet. The poll is open until 3rd August, and was set up such that results could not be seen until after people have voted, as is the convention in elections and referendums.  Mind, I would agree that this is purely an unscienific poll, and on a scale of 0 to 100 in importance it scores a 1 or perhaps a 2, so it really dosn't matter.


Interestingly, the vote is for "West of England Main Line" not "West of England Line".  The two names are indeed similar - probably too similar for comfort - but there is a subtle difference. They are not the same.

The railways are steeped in tradition, and history is not to be cast aside lightly.  However, leaving things in place long after ceased to reflect the current situation, and indeed may imply something that is no longer really the case, is also not to be done lightly. I have no answer for you; the intent of this poll was to give people the opportunity to suggest how we should move forward.

Is there a precedent close to hand?  The name "Great Western Railway" was used for a company that owned trackwork and trains that  operated over a wide area from Weymouth to Birkenhead, and from London to Fishguard, up to the end of 1947. Today, that same name is used by a train operator which does not own the trackwork, nor more than a very few of its trains, and operates over  much narrower area.

Class 159005 was named at Yeovil Railway Centre's Platform 3 on 23 June 2012 as  'West of England Line' so it must be true, and continuing the usage of the name by the 'Southern'.

Although it cannot claim (unfortunately) to be the primary route to the West Country at present, it is still regarded very much by its users as a main line with improving fortunes. Any other classification will be soundly ignored!

The main line that is at the heart of the network SWR run over, from Waterloo to Weymouth, is officially the Bournemouth Main Line, BML.  Locally that’s the one usually referred to as the SWML, common with the West of England line between Waterloo and Basingstoke.
However the letters BML are often used by rail fans to denote the Brighton Main Line.  This is known by the railway as the Victoria to Brighton line, VTB.

Paul

If you ever get the chance to watch Exeter to Basingstoke Driver’s Eye View by Video 125*, you will see just how straight the line is, built for expresses unlike the curvy speed restricted cobbled together Berks and Hants.

In my view the West of England line is somewhat wasted being ideal to speed up the journey time from London down to Devon and Cornwall. This isn’t without its problems though with capacity at Waterloo and having to reverse at Exeter St David’s but two I can think of not to mention the vandalism of singling the line west of Salisbury carried out by BR so far only partially redoubled.

*Other Driver’s Eye Views available.

How about 'Great South West Line'.

Actually defines the line more precisely as West Country can also include Bristol and Gloucestershire (but not always!). Might still be confusion with the terms South Western Railway and South Western Main Line, hence inclusion of Great.

If anyone wishes to lose SWR's 'West of England Line' as a designation should propose an acceptable alternative otherwise that would be a backwards step I consider!

I'll go for a pub name theme................

"The Pad, Pew and Pen"

And before anybody mentions the fact that Penarth is not on this route, it is not intended as a play on the NLCs  ;)

Ignoring any precedent, you'd expect the line with "south" in its name to be to the south. So if logic is allowed to overrule a little-known customary name, the South West (of England) (Main) Line is the LSWR one. Since the South-west of England is basically the same place as the West of England, the same names without South are available for one a bit to the north. But that's probably an if not, so ...

Following another precedent, the Portsmouth Direct Line, what about the Plymouth Direct Line? If you think it's not exactly direct for the last bit that would be the Exeter Direct Line, which doesn't have the same ring to it. So maybe (for a bit of alliteration) the Devon Direct Line? You may say that it's not actually shorter than the one to the south, but at least it avoids such a blatant detour as the one through Axminster. In which case the Straight Line would fit.

Thank you for the passive aggressive response. Back to you in kind.

If it was of such concern that an unscientific poll should conform to the rigorous demands that are required of political voting, then the poll could have been set up to keep the result hidden until the end date. Just as in elections. Results are not known after you've voted. They are known after polls close.

Okay. Let's call the route under discussion the West of England Main Line. The difference between that and West of England Line is subtle but different you say. Sod the confusion it would cause.  ::)

It’s the B&H

As seen from the western end of Reading's platforms in the 1950s, it was the West of England Main Line - and sometimes as the Berks and Hants.

We didn't know about the Southern in those days...  ;)

If its just the line to Plymouth then the 'Janner line'

If it crosses the border from England into Cornwall then the 'Anglo Cornish'  ::)

Or if respecting the origins of the English The 'Deutsche Cornish'  :D

Neither option is there, but the Peninsular Direct, the Devon & Cornwall Direct or the Anglo-Cornish Mainline seem the best options to me. Any mention of 'Fast' is asking for trouble - I can't think of any route where fast is used for the whole route rather than a specific track e.g. down fast. Riviera line is already taken for the Paignton branch.

Whilst I won't deny being biased, the 'Plymouth Direct' hardly seems appropriate given that whilst it's certainly the largest place on the route, Exeter St Davids is used by more people than Plymouth, and Exeter Central isn't far behind. (To be fair, this is probably in no small part due to the fact it's far easier to commute into Exeter from multiple directions than Plymouth by rail, due to the lack of commuter options from the north and east such as Tavistock, Launceston, Plympton etc as much as London traffic might play a part.) I suspect the Cornish might have something to say about a line called the Plymouth Direct as well.

The Berks & Hants is the traditional name, despite the fact it never enters Hampshire. I believe bashers nicknamed it 'the Desert' due to the lack of points of interest between Taunton and Reading. It seems a little harsh - I once passed Athelney when it bore a strong resemblance to Poole Harbour. Although this was after the storms of early 2014.

The Waterloo-Exeter line is shown here as a principal route: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/OfficialNationalRailmapsmall.jpg

A BR map included with the timetable book from 1991-92 shows Intercity routes (i.e. everything which was classified as Intercity) and Principal Express routes, the latter including the Waterloo-Exeter route together with Cardiff-Portsmouth, Cardiff-Nottingham, Transpennine routes etc. That's probably a fair description if you accept that routes generally average 45-60mph are express routes.

There was a train in the summer 1995 timetable leaving Waterloo at 1015 which arrived at Exeter Central at 1301, averaging over 60mph and calling only at Yeovil Junction, Axminster and Honiton west of Salisbury. However, any attempt to speed up most services over that line would inevitably involve worsening the service at some of the intermediate stations. Other than the suggestion which occasionally arises that GWR serve Axminster and pick up the stops at Feniton, Whimple and Pinhoe, allowing SWR to only call at Cranbrook between Honiton and Exeter, I doubt that will happen. There is a plan after the line reopens following works in September to strengthen the line's resilience to flooding that Templecombe and Whimple will only be served by buses for a few days due to speed restrictions, and I suspect that will prove controversial enough.

Call it the Cornish Mainline and be done with it,

I've always known the line through Newbury as the Berks and Hants, wasn't this because the line ran through part of Hampshire but lost its Hampshire neighbourliness under the 1974 Local Government Act which saw Didcot transfer to Oxfordshire from Berkshire and the birth of Avon, now deceased of course.

No the Berks Hants boundary did not change - so far as I am aware - and certainly not that much.  The Hants bit was the Basingstoke branch, which was part of the line from the start.

Call it the Pod Line because it has four peas: Paddington, Pewsey, Plymouth, Penzance.

For a more serious answer, it already has a 'technical' name used by the railway engineers, operators, etc, so any name choosing now is for marketing purposes. So the name has to be something catchy and appealing, summing up the character of the line and the places it serves (perhaps difficult for a long line) and without reference to anything too technical, obscure or historical.

In late Victorian times the East Coast Main Line was publicised as the Cathedrals line as it went through many places with a significant Cathedral or other church. In a way makes more sense than 'East Coast' as it is some way away from that most of the time.

There's no easy answer here, is there?

Naming the line after a something positive that's generally found in abundance along the route, but isn't so common elsewhere, has some merit.  But what?    We have a land of quiet beauty, of rolling hills and and a landscape that's typically lush and green.  We have a relatively affluent territory (though there are pockets that are not, and indeed further west there are some significantly poorer places).  We're going to have a line that's going to be populated with Japanese bullet trains, including perhaps the only UK station(s) served exclusively by these trains - so is there scope for a new name that celebrates the very trains rather than the geography?   Is there a culinary speciality to celebrate - think I saw a suggestion based on the "Cream Tea line", but then the TOC would be duty bound to have a cafe selling cream teas on al services, would he not?

Following on from the previous suggestion what about the Jam up Cream down line,
to clear up the confusion once and for all. From Pad to Penzance it would revert to the  Jam down Cream up line !

That’s what I understood as well.  The Berks and Hants Railway was a GWR subsidiary aimed at virgin territory that the LSWR wanted to extend into, a sort of pre-emptive strike.  Odd that B&H never seems to be mentioned in the context of Basingstoke though...

Paul

I've always called it the Penzance to Paddington Main Line.
 ;)

…….The Hopwood Highway?

Brunel's Bendy Railway (for not much of it is straight)

....and the large chunk between Hungerford and Taunton was built years after the great Brunel was dead!

.....oh well, maybe not then  ;)

"THE BRUNEL LINE"

Has a nice ring to it, is short and memorable, and is partially true even if parts were completed later.

We have the WCML and the ECML, so how about the LCML (London Cornwall main line)?

Or even the West Country Main Line. I'm sure Messrs Branson & Souter would love the enforced renaming of London-Glasgow as the Virgin Trains Main Line to avoid confusion.

What about the Short Way Round. Oh dear that's SWR!

The Cider Line?  ;D
Although I seem to remember in the buffet cars they sell Strongbow :-\.

Pasty Express?

Wellllll ... poll closed last night ...


and in spite of an active number of posters suggesting the name was too similar to the one used for the line from Waterloo via Salisbury, and that that line should have this name, half the voters went for the West of England Main Line.

I don't think we'll ever get a consensus on this one - indeed "something else" brought a staggering variety of alternatives - many imaginative beyond belief.   Sadly, this was a "just for fun" poll.

More serious stuff - the polls at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19894.msg243151#msg243151 on the future of the fare system.  We (all) have input opportunities there to a real consultation and I (for one) am finding the discussions helpful and informative on a pretty important subject.   Sadly, others share my view of the constraints on that consultation , but I'm going to give my best throughs to it an will probably write them up for the "any comments" boxes, even if I suspect that most comments will just be filed in some dusty cabinet.

The majority are always wrong. The minority are rarely right. - Henrik Ibsen