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All across the Great Western territory => Smoke and Mirrors => Topic started by: grahame on September 19, 2018, 18:47:13



Title: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: grahame on September 19, 2018, 18:47:13
Bedwyn (turnback siding), Warminster (on the main line) ... I'm looking to come up with a list of where trains can turn back beyond their final stop - though beyond the platform.   I think there are quite a few others - either routinely done, or done if engineering works or short running require it.  I think Clifton Down might fit this description?

Apart from needing the extra running time to the turning point (and needing that signalled such that reversals can be done there, and the extra occupancy of lines if there's no siding, are there any other reasons it can't / won't be done?


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on September 19, 2018, 19:02:36
Happens at Hereford and at Oxford.

Used to happen on platform 1 at Worcester Foregate St. The two platforms there are separate single lines. On platform 2 (the northern one, used for trains to/from Birmingham), it has always been possible to reverse in the station. But the signalling was different on P1, and a train from the Oxford direction that terminated there had to go across the river to Henwick to reverse. But a major advance means that you can now reverse in P1 as well!


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: ellendune on September 19, 2018, 19:09:23
Cheltenham Spa


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: rogerw on September 19, 2018, 19:25:59
At Paignton where certain trains reverse in the sidings at Goodrington


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Lee on September 19, 2018, 19:47:09
Here's an article listing several stations where this is done on the London Underground - https://londonist.com/2015/01/how-to-get-a-guaranteed-seat-on-the-tube


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: grahame on September 19, 2018, 19:59:30
Here's an article listing several stations where this is done on the London Underground - https://londonist.com/2015/01/how-to-get-a-guaranteed-seat-on-the-tube

Interesting ... and now that you have me thinking "Underground" ... Waterloo!   (on The Drain)


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: grahame on September 19, 2018, 20:02:58
And I suspect Yate this week too during engineering works.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on September 19, 2018, 20:22:43
Happens at Hereford and at Oxford. Used to happen on platform 1 at Worcester Foregate St.
And while we're on the Cotswold Line, there's the Malvern Wells turnback, too, just beyond Great Malvern station.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: plymothian on September 19, 2018, 20:35:37
St James Park.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: JayMac on September 19, 2018, 20:38:56
Not sure if Clifton Down requires a reverse beyond the station.

If up trains (toward Avonmouth) are being turned back there then they'll be signalled into the bi-directional down (toward Bristol TM) platform.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Electric train on September 19, 2018, 21:22:11
Maidenhead, turnback siding between UP and DN Reliefs, and into Maidenhead carriage sidings.  Also since re-signalling its possible for trains on the UP Main to cross over at Maidenhead East onto the DN Main and return via plat 1 towards Reading, it would also seem feasible to do this from the UP (or DN Relief wrong road) to the DN Main


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: eightonedee on September 19, 2018, 22:39:30
In practice, Shalford has served as a turnback for Guildford - hence why this obscure station few have heard of appears as a destination on the North Downs line.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: CMRail on September 19, 2018, 22:54:07
Doesn’t Cardiff Central not have bi-directional signalling?


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: RA on September 19, 2018, 23:26:07
Filton Abbey Wood currently during the Bristol Parkway blockade. Trains reverse on the Filton Chord behind BL2052 signal.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BRST052/2018/09/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: RA on September 19, 2018, 23:38:43
There is an unusual one at Bath Spa. Although the platforms are reversibly signalled, there is one train that is shunted out of the way to avoid blocking up the station until the departure time of its next working. On Mondays to Fridays the 15:58 Bristol Parkway to Bath Spa service (via the 'Rhubarb') then runs as empty stock to Bathampton Junction, reverses on the up main behind B202 signal, and returns to Bath Spa to form the 16:45 Bath Spa to Bristol Parkway service (16:49 to Filton Abbey Wood for the duration of the blockade).

If a Weymouth bound service is to be terminated at Dorchester West, the train will normally shunt out over the junction, behind a position light and back into the other platform. Note that when this is not possible, for example engineering works closing Dorchester Junction, a pilotman will be provided to allow the train to start in the up direction from the down platform.

A Southampton bound train can be terminated at Romsey. There is a position light just beyond the junction on the Chandlers Ford line that allows a train to shunt out behind it and back into the Salisbury bound platform.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: paul7575 on September 20, 2018, 00:39:12
XC trains terminating at Southampton usually run through to either up or down side loops, but there’s a single XC train that arrives just after the morning peak that runs down to Totton Yard, it takes up most of the turn round time:
http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C78203/2018/09/27/advanced

SWR and XC use proper dedicated reversing sidings just beyond Bournemouth, these are in the ideal middle of the formation, complete with full length staff platforms.

Paul


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: grahame on September 20, 2018, 07:23:07
Goodness - a lot more of this goes on than I had noted!

Can someone confirm - on the same basis:
1. train from Bristol direction can reverse at Bradford Junction having terminated at Bradford-on-Avon
2. train from Swindon direction can reverse at Bradford Junction having terminated at Melksham
3. train from Bristol or Swindon can terminate at Trowbridge and reverse at Heywood Road Junction


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: brooklea on September 20, 2018, 08:06:32
Can someone confirm - on the same basis:
1. train from Bristol direction can reverse at Bradford Junction having terminated at Bradford-on-Avon
2. train from Swindon direction can reverse at Bradford Junction having terminated at Melksham
3. train from Bristol or Swindon can terminate at Trowbridge and reverse at Heywood Road Junction

Yes, all three of those scenarios are possible.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on September 20, 2018, 09:15:30
Newbury, where the new wires have been extended westwards beyond the station to enable electric-only turnbacks via a cross-over just west of the Station.

Apparently the wires go far enough to reverse a 12-coach 387 (if that were ever needed?)


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: rogerpatenall on September 20, 2018, 10:57:06
Poole - certainly in XCountry days, and perhaps still so.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: paul7575 on September 20, 2018, 12:41:59
Poole - certainly in XCountry days, and perhaps still so.
Yes, that’s another where empty down trains run beyond into a siding and come back into the up platform later, in the normal offpeak pattern they seem to be in the sidings around 45 mins or so.  Poole S.S. On realtimetrains if interested.

Going back a few years, when Southern’s Brighton <> Southampton first started, many of them ran on to just beyond Southampton, and IIRC often reversed from a position on the slow lines.  Helpfully the slows west of Southampton are the centre pair of the four running lines, so this isn’t as conflicting as you’d think.

As of today, there are a couple of Southern shunts each day, one via the down loop, and one the up loop.  I dare say they could be about retaining route knowledge in case it goes pear shaped:  http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SOU/2018/09/27/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=non-passenger&order=wtt&toc=SN

Paul


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 20, 2018, 13:03:50
One train a day reverses twice outside of Newbury to get into position

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/C43689/2018/09/20/advanced


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Adelante_CCT on September 20, 2018, 13:08:06
Doesn’t Cardiff Central not have bi-directional signalling?

It does, but usually operationally easier to go out and come back in to a different platform


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: plymothian on September 20, 2018, 16:08:41
There are lots of places where a train could turn back due to operational reasons, which is different to where they regularly turn back. 
For instance, at Topsham trains terminating short run beyond the platform to switch sides, the same can happen at Exeter Central before St James Park.  At Highbridge and Burnham trains can shunt via the loop to return to Bristol.  During the Cowley blockage trains terminating at Tiverton Parkway reversed via Tiverton loops.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: JayMac on September 20, 2018, 16:27:44
Taunton.

The weekday 1355 arrival from Cardiff Central terminates on the down main, the island platform 3. It then heads back up the down main, crosses over to the up main, reverses and heads down that line onto the up relief and then into the up bay platform 6.

Two reasons for doing this move. Firstly, to keep up route knowledge of the reverse into platform 6, and second, to clear platform 3 for a terminating service from London.




Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on September 20, 2018, 17:40:03
Also Reading. Some Southbound terminating XC trains run further East to the loop off the Down Relief at Kennet Bridge, reverse there and come back later to pick up their return working.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: FarWestJohn on September 20, 2018, 18:27:28
Also gets the unit off the Portsmouth direct line.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Surrey 455 on September 20, 2018, 22:12:33
Epsom

Plenty of SWR and Southern Terminators from London. Some stay on the platform, others continue to the sidings.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Bob_Blakey on September 20, 2018, 22:28:40
SWR services from the Waterloo line generally use the New Yard at EXD to swap from Platform 3 to P1.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on September 21, 2018, 07:55:42
GWR 16x's at Gatwick reverse or stable between runs beyond the Station, don't they?


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: The Tall Controller on September 21, 2018, 13:15:31
Off-route for us westerners but one of the longest has to be the Chathill twice-daily train which has to run empty for 6 miles to Belford before being able to reverse.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 21, 2018, 13:20:23
Off-route for us westerners but one of the longest has to be the Chathill twice-daily train which has to run empty for 6 miles to Belford before being able to reverse.

Which serves Chathill and also several other small stations on the ECML north of Morpeth that only get two trains a day each way at the most.  Logic would dictate you'd shut Chathill, Adlington, Widrington and Pegswood, given the distances between them, the number of passengers, and the cumbersome shunt described above, but it's quite nice that logic doesn't always prevail.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Lee on September 21, 2018, 14:06:49
I would imagine that has a lot to do with the fact that Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill all come under the formidable auspices of the South East Northumberland Rail User Group, who are campaigning for significantly improved services. (http://www.senrug.co.uk/NorthOfMorpethLocalServices.php)

Post-Beeching, loco-hauled trains between Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh served these stations - In 1982 for example, there were 4 trains each way calling at Chathill. Services were run down during the 1980's though, with the Chathill terminators coming in fully in 1991 after ECML electrification.

Try this (https://stationmaster.me.uk/category/rural/chathill/) for a further insight.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 21, 2018, 14:37:21
I wish them luck.  Certainly there are currently some large layovers at Morpeth on the services to/from Metro Centre, so providing a more frequent service as far as Berwick won't take up as many extra trains as you might imagine - though it would utilise a unit for getting on for two hours if you extended it from Morpeth to Berwick and back.

Pathing an all stations Newcastle to Edinburgh service with four reopened stations would certainly test the timetable planners!


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: grahame on September 21, 2018, 15:04:30
Which serves Chathill and also several other small stations on the ECML north of Morpeth that only get two trains a day each way at the most.  Logic would dictate you'd shut Chathill, Adlington, Widrington and Pegswood, given the distances between them, the number of passengers, and the cumbersome shunt described above, but it's quite nice that logic doesn't always prevail.

I recall my early involvement in TransWilts .. asking the ORR about passenger numbers using the service, and they came back with a very nice letter saying they didn't have train rider numbers - the best they could do was quote passenger numbers from their stats for Melksham, which were around 3,000 per annum at the two trains each way per day level.   In the last year for which stats have been published, Chathill has 2 trains each way per day and 2,768 passenger journeys.  A further 5,000 journeys are made if you include Adlington, Widrington and Pegswood, and note that north of Morpeth the train also serves Alnmouth - big numbers, also served by long distance trains - at which traffic might well grow if service frequency to Newcastle (with extra local trains) increased.

I don't know Northumberland ... but I do know that its figures at Chathill look remarkably similar to those we had at Melksham - and thank goodness the solution we found was to grow.  Different place, perhaps a different solution - logic is to look at all options, including "it ain't bust - just small" through "Chathill for Lindisfarne" leisure traffic ... and "Chathill Garden City"


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: JayMac on September 21, 2018, 15:46:39
GWR 16x's at Gatwick reverse or stable between runs beyond the Station, don't they?

I can't see any regular moves beyond the station on RTT. Most arrivals at Gatwick have just 7 minutes at platform before returning to Reading. Beginning and end of day services come from/head to Redhill.

There is an arrival from Guildford on Sundays that shunts out of the station for around half an hour before coming back in to form a service to Reading.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on September 21, 2018, 15:57:20
Quote
There is an arrival from Guildford on Sundays that shunts out of the station for around half an hour before coming back in to form a service to Reading.

Could be the one I saw, as last time I was there was on a Sunday at the end of June. It was definitely parked a bit south of the Airport Station.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: didcotdean on September 21, 2018, 17:01:27
I think reversal outside of the station at Gatwick used to be quite common but not sure when that ceased to be the case.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: paul7575 on September 21, 2018, 17:39:33
I would imagine that has a lot to do with the fact that Pegswood, Widdrington, Acklington and Chathill all come under the formidable auspices of the South East Northumberland Rail User Group, who are campaigning for significantly improved services. (http://www.senrug.co.uk/NorthOfMorpethLocalServices.php)

Post-Beeching, loco-hauled trains between Newcastle, Berwick and Edinburgh served these stations - In 1982 for example, there were 4 trains each way calling at Chathill. Services were run down during the 1980's though, with the Chathill terminators coming in fully in 1991 after ECML electrification.

Try this (https://stationmaster.me.uk/category/rural/chathill/) for a further insight.
Interesting that the morning train TO Chathill is a relatively express service, it still skips Pegswood, Widdrington and Acklington.  Those 3 stations are odd in only having a morning train towards Newcastle, only the evening Chathill train calls at them in both directions. 

As a child in the early sixties I regularly used the stoppers as far as Alnwick, then that closed and I went only as far as Alnmouth for a few years.  Never got out at Chathill although I stopped there a few times on the way to or from Berwick...

Paul


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: stuving on September 21, 2018, 17:52:21
I think reversal outside of the station at Gatwick used to be quite common but not sure when that ceased to be the case.
It was mainly needed bacause the nominally "slow" platforms 1,2&3 also had the Gatwick Expresses stopping and waiting at them. Once P7 was built and GX went off to the other side there was less pressure for through paths on the slow side.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 21, 2018, 18:04:53
Which serves Chathill and also several other small stations on the ECML north of Morpeth that only get two trains a day each way at the most.  Logic would dictate you'd shut Chathill, Adlington, Widrington and Pegswood, given the distances between them, the number of passengers, and the cumbersome shunt described above, but it's quite nice that logic doesn't always prevail.

I recall my early involvement in TransWilts .. asking the ORR about passenger numbers using the service, and they came back with a very nice letter saying they didn't have train rider numbers - the best they could do was quote passenger numbers from their stats for Melksham, which were around 3,000 per annum at the two trains each way per day level.   In the last year for which stats have been published, Chathill has 2 trains each way per day and 2,768 passenger journeys.  A further 5,000 journeys are made if you include Adlington, Widrington and Pegswood, and note that north of Morpeth the train also serves Alnmouth - big numbers, also served by long distance trains - at which traffic might well grow if service frequency to Newcastle (with extra local trains) increased.

I don't know Northumberland ... but I do know that its figures at Chathill look remarkably similar to those we had at Melksham - and thank goodness the solution we found was to grow.  Different place, perhaps a different solution - logic is to look at all options, including "it ain't bust - just small" through "Chathill for Lindisfarne" leisure traffic ... and "Chathill Garden City"

No doubt usage would improve with a more regular service - you just have to look at the other end of the line at Dunston where there are nearly five times the number of passengers since the service was improved five years ago. However there are plenty of calls on paths between Newcastle and Edinburgh including the open access services from 2021 opeated by FirstGroup.  Chathill itself is tiny, but obviously draws in a reasonable number of commuters from somewhere.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: rower40 on September 21, 2018, 20:44:57
Properly off-area...
Glenrothes with Thornton station.  A terminating train arriving from the Cowdenbeath direction has to disgorge its passengers in the platform, then continue eastwards to get behind a suitable signal (either on north or south curve at Thornton Junction), then come back again to load up for its return journey.  There are no platform starting signals, because the station was built only after the last time the line was resignalled.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Dispatch Box on November 16, 2018, 14:12:58
Some years ago trains also used to reverse at Chepstow, they ran out towards the wye bridge and over a crossover then back into the opposite Platform. The crossover is still in place but now very rusty.

Lastly, trains do reverse in Cardiff Central, some if they have time will often go into the brickyard siding then come out to plats 0 1 2., but if very late will run from the platform they terminated in, now cardiffs got better signalling, it is second to none.


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: grahame on February 21, 2020, 09:11:29
Off-route for us westerners but one of the longest has to be the Chathill twice-daily train which has to run empty for 6 miles to Belford before being able to reverse.

In the news (up there) again today ... from the Northumberland Gazette (https://www.northumberlandgazette.co.uk/news/railway-station-hopes-appear-hit-buffers-402808)

Quote
Northumberland County Council has said there is no evidence to suggest there is a robust business case to support the reopening of Belford or Scremerston.

Stuart McNaughton, the council’s strategic transport policy officer, said: “The county-council bid for monies from Network Rail’s New Stations Fund in 2013 to deliver a station at Belford was unsuccessful.

“Network Rail’s review of the business case submission concluded that there were issues that needed to be addressed with the demand forecasts. However, even if these were addressed, the low frequency of train service as well as dispersed population means patronage is likely to be low. There was no strong evidence to support the proposed demand at Belford where much of the passenger catchment area overlaps with that of Chathill Station.

“As a result, the application did not meet the criteria of the New Stations Fund of having a business case of medium value for money or greater.

“The council has no current plans to invest further in the Belford Station project or to commence work on Scremerston Station.

It would seem from reading the rest of the article that the previous business case was based on extending the Chathill terminators to Belford.   That is a very limited case and I can appreciate it would not stack up; having been on one of the stoppers out to Chathill (yes, a sample size too small for any statistical significance) and assuming that Belford's station area would be similar (yes, assumptions are dangerous), merely adding a station without any change in service, and without any thought of if and how people are going to make use of the station would not be the best spend even though I suspect its passenger numbers would rapidly climb beyond those of Chathill.    Given free or cheap parking and a frequent service ... who knows?  Perhaps no-one knows, because no-one has looked at the idea?


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on February 21, 2020, 11:44:57
Since the 387’s arrived Didcot Parkway now sees reversals on a regular basis beyond the platform at West End for some terminating stoppers from Paddington.  Usually they turn back from P5, P4 or P3 but if the platforms are needed they go forward to West End to wait before reversing back into the station for their next working.  P3 (DR) has no direct route to UR: trains have to be routed out to the UM at Didcot East before crossing over to UR at Moreton Cutting.  So P4 or P5 are preferred to reduce conflicting moves.

There are also one or two terminators from Oxford direction that having arrived in P4 (the only platform they can do a West End move from) then reverse to West End, wait, then reverse back into P3 or P4 before reversing again for their next journey towards Oxford. 


Title: Re: Trains reversing beyond the station
Post by: PhilWakely on February 21, 2020, 13:36:31
Since the start of the new timetable the Barnstaple to St James Park services need to go a further mile to the siding at Exmouth Junction to turn back. I understand that the track work of this siding is to be replaced this year so, during that engineering blockade, the Barnstaple services are planned to go all of the way out to Pinhoe before turning back.



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