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Journey by Journey => London to the Cotswolds => Topic started by: Richard Fairhurst on November 05, 2018, 11:35:11



Title: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on November 05, 2018, 11:35:11
On the RMT website (https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-to-go-ahead-with-ballot-of-paddington-depot-members/):

Quote
RAIL UNION RMT will ballot all guards and drivers at Paddington Depot for strike action and action short of a strike over the victimisation and decision to sack Great Western Railway (GWR) rail guard and union activist Ben Frederick.

Frederick has been sacked following a disciplinary hearing this week after he was assaulted at Evesham Station by a member of the public while working his train as a guard (train manager) on Saturday 11 August 2018.

I have no knowledge of the circumstances of this incident, but I don't think it's too controversial to say that Evesham passengers can sometimes be a handful...


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: ChrisB on November 05, 2018, 12:02:49
My understanding is that he hit back....but please correct me if I'm wrong


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: Phantom on November 05, 2018, 12:18:59
https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/members-updates/suspension-from-duty-b-frederick-train-manager--gwr251018/

To All Great Western Railway Members

Our Ref: BR2/4/12

25th October 2018


Dear Colleague

SUSPENSION FROM DUTY, B. FREDERICK, TRAIN MANAGER – GREAT WESTERN RAILWAY

I have received the following resolution from our Paddington No 1 Branch with regards to the above matter:

“This RMT Paddington No.1 branch deplores the decision of Great Western Railway (GWR) to suspend our member Ben Frederick from duty pending investigation of a vexatious allegation against him of assault.

Bro’ Frederick was assaulted on duty at Evesham station by a member of the public when working his train as a Guard (Train Manager) on Saturday 11 August 2018. Bro’ Frederick reported the assault on him to his employer (GWR Duty Control) and to the British Transport Police on the same day. He was told that BTP would contact him to take a statement. He has never been contacted by BTP about his assault.

5 September 2018 Bro’ Frederick was suspended from duty by his employer pending investigation of an allegation that he had assaulted a member of the public on 11 August. He has been suspended for over a month in breach of GWR’s own guidelines and agreement with this union that investigatory suspensions of staff should not exceed 28 days.

Earlier this month when interviewed by an investigating manager he was shown CCTV footage, which clearly shows the member of the public assaulting him by spitting at him and hitting him with a mobile phone. Bro’ Frederick was also verbally abused by the same person using racist insults. No complaint against Bro’ Frederick has been received by GWR from the member of the public and it appears that the employer has instigated the current investigation and suspension of our member.

This branch believes that GWR is failing to protect our members who are in the frontline of dealing with often abusive member of the public. We believe that GWR is abusing its own investigatory suspension policy. We note that Bro’ Frederick is a Health & Safety Representative for train managers at Paddington depot and a stalwart member of this union. We call on the NEC to ensure that Bro’ Frederick is given all legal and Industrial support to ensure he is reinstated without further delay.”

Your union’s National Executive Committee has recently considered the matter and note with grave concerns the sentiments contained within the resolution.

The RMT deplores the response from GWR following a member of the public racially abusing and physically assaulting Brother Frederick by spitting at him and hitting him repeatedly with a mobile phone, whilst he was carrying out his duties.

Instead of management fulfilling their duty to protect a member of frontline staff who found himself in a dangerous conflict situation, GWR levelled gross misconduct charges against Brother Frederick.

The Executive Committee has taken the decision to ballot all our GWR Guard and Driver members located at Paddington Depot for strike action and action short of a strike, unless Brother Frederick is immediately reinstated to his substantive role at his Disciplinary Hearing on Friday 26th October 2018.

Furthermore, I have written to GWR demanding that the scapegoating of frontline staff ends immediately and that management give a commitment to the RMT that our members who suffer abuse and assaults from members of the public are totally protected.

I will, of course, keep you fully advised on any further developments.

Best wishes.

Mick Cash
General Secretary


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 05, 2018, 12:22:25
More here with a lovely picture of the bruvvers. I wonder if they know how ridiculous they look?

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-to-go-ahead-with-ballot-of-paddington-depot-members/


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: Clan Line on November 05, 2018, 13:11:43
More here with a lovely picture of the bruvvers. I wonder if they know how ridiculous they look?

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-to-go-ahead-with-ballot-of-paddington-depot-members/


I'm with you there Bro' Taplow........... ::)


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 05, 2018, 13:13:58
A couple of them look suitably embarrassed.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: patch38 on November 05, 2018, 13:23:19
They seem perfectly in tune with modern sentiment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOCWUgwiWs)

I'll get my coat.

(And my loon-pants)


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 05, 2018, 13:36:53
More here with a lovely picture of the bruvvers. I wonder if they know how ridiculous they look?

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-to-go-ahead-with-ballot-of-paddington-depot-members/


I'm with you there Bro' Taplow........... ::)

They could at least have got someone to choreograph it to the extent that they all raised the same arm......🙈


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: ray951 on November 05, 2018, 14:22:41
I notice they don't say what the CCTV shows or doesn't show about the allegation of Frederick assulating the passenger.

And which religious order is Frederick a member of?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: SandTEngineer on November 05, 2018, 15:11:57
As its a disciplinary matter, and could lead to a court case, I think not sharing any evidence is the correct thing to do?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: ray951 on November 05, 2018, 16:07:53
As its a disciplinary matter, and could lead to a court case, I think not sharing any evidence is the correct thing to do?
I did think that, but the press release from the RMT did say that the CCTV "clearly shows the member of the public assaulting him by spitting at him and hitting him with a mobile phone" and presumably the passenger could also be charged and it end up in court.

Is suspension a standard GWR procedure if someone is accused of an assault?

There is something odd about this whole process as in  the press release it states he was suspended on the 5th Sept, the hearing was on the 26th Oct, yet they only called for a ballot on the 25th Oct (7 weeks later). It seems to me that they don't think they would win a ballot, otherwise they would have called it earlier, and are just trying to bounce the disciplinary hearing into lifting the suspension with the threat of a strike.

I notice that the hearing was set for the 26th Oct, so do we know what happened?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: ChrisB on November 05, 2018, 16:11:59
He was dismissed - hence the ballot....


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 05, 2018, 16:58:26
Though he has the right to appeal, which hasn’t yet happened.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 05, 2018, 17:34:34
Though he has the right to appeal, which hasn’t yet happened.

Eh? Why would someone not appeal if they felt they'd been wrongly dismissed?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 05, 2018, 20:38:50
I meant the appeal hearing hasn’t yet happened.  Mind you, I’m not sure if he has actually formally lodged an appeal yet.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 06, 2018, 06:07:13
I meant the appeal hearing hasn’t yet happened.  Mind you, I’m not sure if he has actually formally lodged an appeal yet.


…..so what the hell are the Union up to then? (rhetorical II, not directed at you!  :))

If the guy still has recourse to be reinstated via that route, why start sabre rattling and balloting for strike action in this way? (………...or could it be, I wonder, that the Union think that the threat of strikes in support of Bruvver Frederick, the "highly regarded Union Activist", around the run up to Christmas will give them more leverage?)


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 06, 2018, 07:14:11
…..so what the hell are the Union up to then?

That’s the question GWR management are asking as well.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: Phantom on November 06, 2018, 10:25:32
Have I read this correct then

Passenger spits at guard
Passenger strikes guard with mobile phone (odd choice of weapon)
ALLEGED Guard then strikes back at passenger



Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: stuving on November 06, 2018, 10:35:47
Have I read this correct then

Passenger spits at guard
Passenger strikes guard with mobile phone (odd choice of weapon)
ALLEGED Guard then strikes back at passenger

All you have seen is from the RMT. Obviously there is another side to it. It is just possible that the RMT's statement contained less than 100% of the known facts (including what is alleged and disputed), and it may even not have been perfectly objective in what it did say.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: ChrisB on November 06, 2018, 10:37:03
Indeed, the CCTV may have caught the reaction, the RMT choosing not to mention this....


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: grahame on November 06, 2018, 22:23:17
Not sure if it really belongs in this thread ... another story from the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46114097)

Quote
Six Ryanair cabin crew members pictured sleeping on the floor of a Spanish airport office last month have been sacked, the airline says.

(I will split to a separate thread if this springs a tangential discussion)


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: patch38 on November 06, 2018, 23:09:46
Damned right. Surely they should be expected to pay Michael O'Leary for the privilege of sleeping on a Ryanair floor?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: Phantom on November 07, 2018, 10:24:17
Damned right. Surely they should be expected to pay Michael O'Leary for the privilege of sleeping on a Ryanair floor?

Very odd decision to try and make their company look bad (won't open that can of worms), they never had to sleep on that floor so seems strange why they would share the picture?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: Phantom on November 07, 2018, 10:24:57
Reading the RMT site, one question, why do they keep referring to the guy as "Brother"?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: CyclingSid on November 07, 2018, 10:36:14
Do they have to take religious orders on the Cotswold Line?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on November 07, 2018, 11:36:46
Reading the RMT site, one question, why do they keep referring to the guy as "Brother"?
Well, it's either that or 'Comrade'...


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on November 07, 2018, 14:08:33
Do they have to take religious orders on the Cotswold Line?
Only on the Cathedrals Express.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 07, 2018, 14:32:11
Reading the RMT site, one question, why do they keep referring to the guy as "Brother"?
Well, it's either that or 'Comrade'...

In the current climate it should be non gender specific.........sibling?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: ChrisB on November 07, 2018, 14:34:13
Surely 'Comrade' is non-gender already?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 07, 2018, 16:55:07
Reading the RMT site, one question, why do they keep referring to the guy as "Brother"?
Well, it's either that or 'Comrade'...

In the current climate it should be non gender specific.........sibling?

Surely 'Comrade' is non-gender already?

Either term is redolent of the kind of socialism that looks like a damp breeze block and smells of stale wee. Why do they feel the need to use any kind of title?


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: stuving on November 07, 2018, 17:55:52
Reading the RMT site, one question, why do they keep referring to the guy as "Brother"?
Surely 'Comrade' is non-gender already?
Either term is redolent of the kind of socialism that looks like a damp breeze block and smells of stale wee. Why do they feel the need to use any kind of title?

Why do they use Brother like that?

Historically, brother would have been common in several kinds of groups that the unions either grew out of or felt some commonality with - guilds, secret societies and fraternities, and nonconformists during the revival of the early 1800s. While unions may not have been religious, those primitive methodists, brethren, etc. were clearly anti-establishment, and their habit of squabbling about rules and procedures and forming splinter groups pre-echoes left-wing politics (I'm thinking of the 70s). So brother was an obvious choice as an egalitarian greeting and title, even if some of those precursors had hierarchical titles like master too.

In Britain, the prior use in religious orders wasn't a problem, given the lack of monks. In France it was, as the left was universally anti-clerical and the church was powerful, so camarade was adopted from military and revolutionary usage. That was reinforced when the Russian communists took over the various internationals, and camarade became the standard translation of tovarishch. In Germany, Kamerad was not acceptable as it was used in right-wing militaristic societies, and presumably Bruder wasn't accepted over much of Germany either, so I think Genosse got adopted instead. Kamerad of course was and is much better known to non-Germans, no doubt largely due to WWI (and II).

But why do they still use it (and comrade)? On one level we don't use titles, or this kind of greeting, much today, so they probably could drop it if they really wanted to not look like they are living in a parallel but slower-moving universe. But similar terms are used by some sub-groups, or self-conscious minorities. Unions might justifiably feel they have been persecuted, and have become more of a minority, but surely not to the extent of preparing to go underground*.

Incidentally, is Bro' in the RMT's text just a written abbreviation, or do they say "bro" and risk being attacked for cultural appropriate or suchlike?

*Though the RMT of course already are Underground.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 07, 2018, 18:05:14
They still use it simply because it’s tradition, and we all know unions are big on tradition.  All correspondence is signed ‘Yours fraternally’ for similar reasons.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: martyjon on November 07, 2018, 20:23:19
Reading the RMT site, one question, why do they keep referring to the guy as "Brother"?

If the individual was female they would refer to her as "Sister", its all part of the established union movements etiquette.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: CMRail on November 07, 2018, 21:54:29
Because they are a family. Supposedly. A family who must all share the same opinion apparently.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 07, 2018, 22:20:58
They still use it simply because it’s tradition, and we all know unions are big on tradition.  All correspondence is signed ‘Yours fraternally’ for similar reasons.

They're certainly big on tradition, that's why they still behave as if it's 1975.


Title: Re: Evesham incident and possible follow-up strike action
Post by: IndustryInsider on November 08, 2018, 06:50:25
Indeed.  I personally have no problems with traditions such as that, but I can say (as a union member for 30 years) that I think they should recognise the need to modernise and stop ridiculous shows of solidarity such as the raised arm photo which just makes them look like a row of Chinese lucky cats!



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