Great Western Coffee Shop

Today I noticed "HST 2+4" stop boards at Severn Tunnel Junction and Patchway stations.  Perhaps they have been there some time and I have just been unobservant.  I remember back in April being told that cut-down HSTs would be used on selected Cardiff - Taunton services but, having heard nothing more of this plan since, wondered if it had been quietly dropped.  After all, if only 3 are being built, surely they will be fully utilised between Plymouth and Penzance?

Does anyone have any more information about this?  It would be great to have some extra capacity on the usually crush-loaded 0800 ex Cardiff and 1607 return from Taunton.

There are going to be eleven as I recall.  First one in service, second one arrives this month and will be on staff training runs up as far as Cardiff, others arriving by (?) May next year.

Pilning next ?..

The second one came south last week I believe?

I suppose the date they are all converted is dependent on when the last few HSTs are displaced by IETs?  Have Scotrail got all their ex-GWR HSTs now?

Something I was wondering about these cut-down sets - do they have the engines in both power cars operational?  4500 hp for a 2+4 train seems rather generous, but there's not enough weight in a power car to give decent acceleration if only one is producing power.

The one that’s in Cornwall and Devon has both engines running, and goes like **** off a shovel. Locking up to the GTi nickname!

One week of 2+4 HSTs on the Cardiff to Bristol route, and while the extra seating capacity is welcome, the slump in punctuality is definitely not.  The two services I watch closely - the 1608 and 1706 Taunton to Cardiff - managed as many lates last week as in the previous 7 put together.  I'm hoping this is just a temporary blip, but if some of the sets are using slam door stock I think it is inevitable that longer station dwell times will wreck reliability.  Many of these services cross at or near Weston, so a delay on one service often has a knock-on effect on another in the opposite direction.

The two sets running in the far west (one starts back at Bristol) are sliding doors. The ones between Cardiff/Bristol and Taunton (one starts back at Exeter) are slam door.

Diagrams:

Sliding door sets
--
2E12 0600 Penzance - Exeter St Davids
2C45 0926 Exeter St Davids - Penzance
2A85 1257 Penzance - Newton Abbot
2P49 1555 Newton Abbot - Plymouth
2C51 1755 Plymouth - Penzance
2P96 2018 Penzance - Plymouth
2C54 2242 Plymouth - Penzance (FX)

2D01 0600 Bristol Temple Meads - Bristol Parkway
2C43 0624 Bristol Parkway - Penzance
2A86 1141 Penzance - Newton Abbot
2P90 1450 Newton Abbot - Plymouth
5Z74 1604 Plymouth - St Phillips Marsh TMD

Slam door sets
--
5U08 07+26 St Phillips Marsh TMD - Weston-super-Mare (ECS)
2U08 0841 Weston-super-Mare - Cardiff Central
2C73 1100 Cardiff Central - Taunton
2U18 1308 Taunton - Cardiff Central
2C83 1600 Cardiff Central - Taunton
2U28 1808 Taunton - Cardiff Central
2C34 2100 Cardiff Central - Bristol Temple Meads

2Y04 0648 Bristol Temple Meads - Weston-super-Mare
2U06 0736 Weston-super-Mare - Cardiff Central
2C71 1000 Cardiff Central - Taunton
2U16 1204 Taunton - Cardiff Central
2C81 1500 Cardiff Central - Taunton
2U26 1706 Taunton - Cardiff Central
2C91 2000 Cardiff Central - Taunton
5C91 22+21 Taunton - Laira TMD (ECS)

5D02 04+30 Laira TMD - Exeter St Davids
2D02 0600 Exeter St Davids - Bristol Parkway
2C65 0812 Bristol Parkway - Taunton
2W08 0937 Taunton - Weston-super-Mare
5U14 10+10 Weston-super-Mare - Taunton (ECS)
2U14 1104 Taunton - Cardiff Central
2C79 1400 Cardiff Central - Taunton
2U24 1608 Taunton - Cardiff Central
2C89 1900 Cardiff Central - Taunton
5C89 21+04 Taunton - St Phillips Marsh TMD (ECS)

Perhaps it can't be helped, but it looks like the second sliding door set is running around empty after 15:34, and the first slam door set doesn't pick up its first passengers until 08:41 at W-s-M having run empty to there - 09:15 into Temple Meads.

They have already been posted here:-

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18332.225

Anyway, these were for last week which were affected by Engineering Work.    This week there are differences:-

Sliding Door after arrival Plymouth 1534, works 2C48 1556 Plymouth to Penzance (and some days last week), 2P95 1914 Penzance to Plymouth and 5P95 21+34 Plymouth to Laira CS.
5C89 off 2C89 works 5C89 21+10 Taunton to Laira CS and Set off 2C91 works 2M76 2245 Taunton to Bristol TM (didn't run last week due Engrs)
2C48 & 2P95 is sometimes worked by IET.
ECS are worked under STP arrangements at the mpment

Yikes ... I wish there were an easier way of presenting data sometimes!   I think I have it, but please think of the guests who make up a high proportion of Coffee Shop visitors ....


I think you're saying that the train that gets to Plymouth at half past three in the afternoon usually doesn't go off passenger duty at that point, but does a round trip to Penzance getting back mid evening into Plymouth.

Can't quite work out what this should be.    2C48 has been an IET since te Timetable change but last week was either IET in which case the short HST ran straight back as 16+04 to St.Phillips Marsh.   If it worked 2C48 it ran 5C95 22+00 Plymouth to PM

2C79 broke down at Nailsea & Backwell this afternoon.  Caused a fair bit of disruption to other westbound services.

Was an understatement, we had to wait for the service to come back into Temple Meads (arrived back 1630) as it was returning up the down line
Was unit 43155

Same again today.  This time 2C71 broke down at Yatton.  And again a 2-car 150/2 substituted for the evening peak. 

On both days, two consecutive Taunton to Weston services have been lost - the return working of the train that broke down, and the following delayed service that skipped stations after Highbridge & Burnham to Bristol to make up time.

That would explain why a 3 car set was back on the service this morning

According to CIS one of the diagrams was an 8-coach HST for the first part of the day, but it got substituted for a cut-down set - I think at Temple Meads on 2C79.

I wonder whether they cut right back on the maintenance of the power cars and coaches they're not planning to get refurbished, not anticipating them being pushed back into service albeit as a stopgap measure.  Any sign of the next couple of sliding door sets arriving from Wabtec any time soon?

150001 was on a 2+4 yesterday, sadly Involved in a fatality yesterday evening.

There’s a nine car IET out in place of a 2+4 today.

Travelled on one from Weston to Bristol this morning (0841) I forgot how slow these things are at pulling away etc.
Left Weston on time but got to BTM 6 minutes late with all the flapping around with the doors

2C43 0624 Bristol Parkway to Penzance

followed by (assuming it covers the whole diagram)
2A86 1141 Penzance to Newton Abbot;
2P90 1450 Newton Abbot to Plymouth;
2C48 1556 Plymouth to Penzance;
2P95 1914 Penzance to Plymouth;
5P95 2134 Plymouth to Laira T.& R.S.M.D.

<edit>  2P90 1450 Newton Abbot to Plymouth currently showing as cancelled - 'More trains than usual requiring repairs at the same time' - so it'll probably not cover the whole diagram!

Several weeks on, and the reliability is better than I had at first feared.  Although the slam door stock has lengthened average station dwell times by at least a minute, this has been largely offset by faster running between stations - especially between Weston and Taunton, and between Patchway and Newport, where these trains quickly reach maximum line speed. 

The section where they tend to lose time is between Temple Meads and Weston Super Mare, especially 2C81 and 2C83 which call at all 6 intermediate stations, and need to clear the Weston loop before 2U24 and 2U26 coming in the opposite direction.  Typically they are losing 5 to 10 minutes here.  The trains can't be re-timed to pass at Weston station instead because the turnaround at Taunton is already very tight.  A few minutes delay to these services soon becomes 20 or 30 minutes as conflicting faster services are given priority.

Maybe some adjustments will come with the December timetable changes, but by then hopefully all the slam doors will have been replaced by sliding doors and extended station stops will no longer be an issue.  Another thing that might help is a reminder over the PA system that it helps the train to run on time if they close the doors - even if it might seem patronising to some.  Too many people these days seem oblivious to the fact that slam doors don't close themselves.

Part of the problem is how long it takes the train manager to despatch these services, they are only opening 2/3 doors but walk the whole set when clearly nobody attempted to leave from the other doors

The odd thing this wasn't a problem in the past?

Noting your "?".

The peak HSTs that called at numerous stations between Westbury and Reading always used to feel incredibly slow - due both to the dwell times at each station while the train manager checked all (released) doors and the very gentle acceleration of a 2+8, but the timetable did / does allow for this.  ... 81 minutes Westbury to Reading with 8 stops versus 46 minutes non-stop.   The 81 minutes - if I'm reading it right - to 67 in December 2019, that giving a flavour of the difference the change to IETs can make.

The Bristol area HST schedules that make 3 stops between  Bristol and Weston are allowed (in the current timetable) 4 or 5 minutes longer than unit train schedules making the same stops.  I suspect current time loss issues are due to classic HST units on unit train schedules. Some will be made up over a 2+8 schedule due to the train's "GTi" nature, but they will still feel frustratingly slow with long station stops.

Looking at the WTT timings of 2C81, it's only allocated 30 second stops at Bedminster, Parson Street, Yatton and Weston Milton, 1 minute at Nailsea and Worle, and 2 minutes at Temple Meads and Weston.  The slam door trains are averaging 2 minutes per station, apart from Temple Meads where it's more like 4.  So, over that section, they are stopped at stations for 18 minutes compared with the timetabled 8 minutes.  The better acceleration can't make up that sort of difference. 

I have been to Plymouth for work a couple of times recently and have had 2+4 HSTs between Plymouth and St. Budeaux. Not on a Gunnislake service but, on that point, I wonder if they have tried them out on that line yet.

Not had a Mini HST from Cardiff to Bristol TM yet though.

Dave

I would be very surprised indeed if 2+4s turn up on Gunnislake or Looe ... on the other hand they may be logical on Newquay on peak days.   Can we have one for Weymouth on Summer Sundays please  ;D

They were tested for Newquay and appropriate stop boards put out not long ago. I’ve heard there is a Saturday Newton Abbot to Newquay diagram starting next month.
Like wise an IET was tested.
Both caused havoc at Quintrell Downs level crossing as both tests were fouling the crossing for 5+ minutes!

They would be overkill on the Gunnislake or Looe Branches for that matter

Just checked on RealTimeTrains for Saturday 25th May and found the following which suggest you are right:
2E87 0808 Plymouth - Exeter St. Davids, arr. 0915
2N04 0934 Exeter St. Davids - Newquay, arr. 1239
2A99 1322 Newquay - Newton Abbot, arr. 1613

RTT has 2A99's timing pathed as a Class 158.

Dave

Strange.  I've just been having a ganders and 2A99 is timed as 75 mph 15x Sprinter like the rest.

Until last week, one of the Cardiff - Taunton diagrams had regularly been a sliding door set.  With start of the new timetable, I guess all the Castles are needed further west, and this diagram is now slam-door like the rest.  Not good news for punctuality on the route, which seems to have taken a turn for the worse since Monday.

And I noticed GWR's May timetable changes poster today.  It promises *more* refurbished Castle Class HSTs on the Cardiff to Taunton route from May.  Really?

Still only Classics, but punctuality does at last seem to be improving on the "all stations" services in the late afternoon / early evening.  With the train manager and assistant closing train doors in a coordinated way they seem to be able to get average dwell times down to around 90 seconds.  Even then, it's still pretty challenging for some of these down services to clear Uphill Junction before the up train from Taunton is due to get there.

Short sets of HST are stoping at Pilning these days,but only on a Saturday of course !...

I notice the 1200 and 1800 ex Cardiff; 0916 and 1456 ex Taunton diagram has been a 'classic' this week.
That's classics on most of this route's diagrams now, isn't it?  Exceptions are the 0602 TAU - CDF / 0900 CDF - PLY and 0925 SJP - CDF / 1300 CDF - EXD, I think.

I understand that GWR now have 6 'castles' - they're not all required for the far west services, so where are the others?  I haven't seen any on the Cardiff to Taunton run since the May timetable change.

The remaining Castles are still caught in the refurbishment logjam at Wabtec.

There’s also an important staffing implication between the two types.  The Classics with slam doors need a train manager as they have knowledge of the trains.  The sliding doors can be worked by a conductor. They have been trained on the Castles but not the slam doors. 

It therefore makes sense to keep the Castles where the staff have been trained for them.

My 'Castle' in my forum signature is now at the correct length. Slam door though!

Classic!

Yes - I realise the rest are still in the queue at Wabtec.  The point I was making is that GW05 and GW06 have arrived since the May timetable started, but I'm not aware of any new Castle diagrams.

There was a move from Laira to Wabtec today

Correction:-  Tomorrow

Seem to be back to just 3 'castle' diagrams on Cardiff-Taunton in recent weeks.  Today I think it was only 2.  One diagram was a 3-car dmu.  I think everything else was 2-car.  Not very impressive, and no reason to think anything will magically improve next month.

Here is the current list as published on the WNXX Forum:

2K08 (08.03 Bristol Temple Meads - Avonmouth) was a very crowded 2-car unit this morning...

At the moment, workings can change even from week to week due to the transitional period and influenced by availability.  The Castle programmed is running late due to late deliveries from Wabtec

Understood - but that doesn't necessarily affect the total number of castles and classics available for service?

There are 9 booked out each weekday and a full complement when everything being available should be 11.