Great Western Coffee Shop

I've noticed an increase in Turbos recently.

Are the 180s now pretty much history & is the Cotswold line back to having a proportion of the trains reverting to Turbos?

In particular the 9.37 WOF - PAD appears to be a Turbo.

Does the FGW hierarchy realise just how uncomfortable they are on a long run?

I am not surprised! The minute an HST on another service fails, the Cotswold line is the first to have a substitute train put in (i.e. a Thames Turbo)! >:(

But I thought that FGW were keeping 3 180s for the time being, so there is no reason at all, why any service on the Cotswold Line should be operated by a Thames Turbo (unless it is the halts train). ???

Say no to a Thames Turbo !

Passenger numbers will be the reason. Probably the most lightly used services on the GW region (not ex Wessex)

That's only because the fares are so high- and no Firstminutefares!

HST replaced by 180 tonight, still seeing the Adelantes very (too)regularly.

That would be because this service is booked for a Turbo and has been since the start of the current timetable in December. As Devon Metro observes, passenger numbers at this time of day are low. Even an Adelante would be pretty empty, never mind an HST.

You can generally identify which trains are not HST or Adelante in the online journey planners... the Turbo services aren't booked to have buffets!  ;)

First Great Western
From: Worcester Foregate Street
To:   London Paddington

Worcester Foregate Street      ---   09:37 
Worcester Shrub Hill           09:39 09:40 
Pershore                       09:49 09:49 
Evesham                        09:56 09:58 
Honeybourne                    10:04 10:04 
Moreton-in-Marsh               10:17 10:18 
Kingham                        10:25 10:25 
Charlbury                      10:34 10:34 
Hanborough                     10:41 10:41 
Oxford                         10:58 11:00 
Reading                        11:25 11:26 
London Paddington              11:58 ---   


Notes

Operator: First Great Western

MC - First and standard class accommodation
RP - Seat reservations available

Whereas...

First Great Western
From: Great Malvern
To:   London Paddington

Great Malvern                  ---   11:06 
Malvern Link                   11:09 11:10 
Worcester Foregate Street      11:25 11:26 
Worcester Shrub Hill           11:29 11:31 
Pershore                       11:39 11:40 
Evesham                        11:48 11:49 
Honeybourne                    11:56 11:56 
Moreton-in-Marsh               12:08 12:13 
Kingham                        12:21 12:21 
Charlbury                      12:31 12:31 
Hanborough                     12:39 12:39 
Oxford                         12:58 13:00 
Reading                        13:25 13:27 
Slough                         13:40 13:41 
London Paddington              13:59 ---   


Notes

Operator: First Great Western


CB - Buffet service
MC - First and standard class accommodation
RP - Seat reservations available

Get yourself on the Barnstaple Branch on a 142 to DO uncomfortable

Thanks for the info guys - Swlines, I missed the timetable nuances.

Willc your comment regarding the Adelante misses the point - there are only 7 more seats in an Adelante than a Turbo. The idea of the Adelante is to give the customer a good level of comfort (2+2 rather than 2+3) plus buffet on longer journeys.

You're right about low levels of patronage - at that time of day Warwick - Marylebone can be bought from ^5, ^10 return (in comfortable trains) whereas there are no price incentives on FGW - ^31.20 one way PSH - PAD, ^31.80 return.

If FGW want to build up the business they need to understand, price, comfort and reliability are paramount. Whilst reliability is as much a factor of notwork rail the first 2 are under FGW control.

I thought replacing the Turbos by Adelantes was part of a service improvement plan addressing the issue of comfort.

It's about customer satisfaction.

Thanks Dog box -  I thought the idea was to do comfortable !!!! Guess I blew it !!!

Yes, Adelantes are more comfortable (and arguably a far more sensible train for most Cotswold services than an HST anyway), but the handful of Turbos that are out there on the route are the ones that are supposed to be. About the only Turbo stand-in I know of in recent weeks is the one last Sunday noted in another thread. See this link to the CLPG site for more info on types of train booked for the various services on the route:

http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsDec%202007.htm (http://www.clpg.co.uk/newsDec%202007.htm)

Even if the fares were dropped, I don't believe there is so much untapped demand out there on the Cotswold Line, in either direction, to justify yet another HST running near-empty out from London - even if one was available, which it clearly isn't, hence the Turbo on the 06.30/09.37.

And if you are paranoid about Turbos, why would you want to use Chiltern services? The Birmingham trains are operated by derivative of the Turbo! They may be marginally more comfortable than the FGW lot, but the basic set-up is the same and not a match for an Adelante. And from Banbury or Bicester, there is a very good chance you will be on a real Turbo, in the shape of a 165, if the train starts at those stations.

As long as a few 180s are around, then the duty that covers the 05.42 from London to Worcester, 08.37 return and the 17.51 from London is the number one candidate for an Adelante substitute, if an HST is unavailable for some reason in London at 5.30am, because of passenger numbers west of Oxford in either direction - yes Ian, I know that an Adelante gets busy from Charlbury at 09.38, but I would rather have a train, of any kind, to use than having to drive into Oxford like I did yesterday, due to the train getting stuck on its outward journey.

That Adelantes keep appearing shows there is a clear need for that extra HST in the FGW fleet, but a 180 turning up is not a disaster, nor, actually, dare I say it, but here goes, is a lightly-loaded 166 Turbo with semi-functioning air-conditioning (that would be 166201 then).

As Dog Box observes, if you want real discomfort, try a railbus. I used to go to school on these in Yorkshire when they were new and they weren't any better then - when the first 150s appeared in the area they were a revelation by comparison.

Hi Willc, thanks for your response.

I believe the Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, they are just to small to cope with the Oxford / Reading commuters as well. For what it's worth I prefer them to the refurb HSTs but that's a matter of choice. I am an Adelante fan (am I unique?)

Regarding Chiltern, if you get on a Warwick Parkway you invariably get a 168 'Clubman'. The space and comfort is very similar to the Adelantes with many tables, laptop sockets etc. Your comments suggest you haven't actually been on one. By having a single class the 4 coach 168 has only 10 fewer seats than a 5 coach Adelante. Chiltern strengthen the trains a peak times running 6/7/8 coach formations. An 8 coach 168 has more seats than an HST and they're all 2+2. Their 165s are fully air conditioned so the windows are sealed and they have an element of 2+2 seating (which FGW charges 1st class for on the Turbo!). It is rare for those to run to Warwick Parkway anyway.

Turbos may be fine from Charlbury to Oxford, it's not on from Malvern to Paddington. Other trains being even more uncomfortable shows how little focus FGW has on the customer.

So what do you suggest? You have just said that Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, but then said that they can't cope south of Oxford. It has got to be one or the other, unless you run Adelantes/Thames Turbos every hour from Oxford to Worcester, and then half hourly HSTs from Oxford to Paddington.

PS: I am not saying that this should happen! ;)

As a reg ..... off keep they can cope RDG to PAD

Maybe 1/2 they get very busy ut I'd rather a 180 very busy than a turbo

"So what do you suggest? You have just said that Adelantes are ideal for the Cotswold line, but then said that they can't cope south of Oxford. It has got to be one or the other, unless you run Adelantes/Thames Turbos every hour from Oxford to Worcester, and then half hourly HSTs from Oxford to Paddington."

Hi Btline,

HST at peak and Adelantes off peak (which is what I thought the plan was)

Alternatively, at peak times I'd run 10 coach Adelantes to Oxford & split at Oxford on the down. I'd run 5 coach Adelantes to Oxford coupling up to 10 coach on the up. Off peak run 5 coach Adelantes.

I also think, at peak times, they should consider treating Reading / Slough like Virgin treat Watford, ie pick up only on the down, set down only on the up.

For what it's worth, now to be really unpopular, I don't think they should take bikes. As an alternative they could offer bike hire at Oxford / Paddington.

I'd disagree there. If FGW were to specify the use of an HST for the Cotswolds in short availability a service that might be far busier and more well used might be cancelled. Therefore its only sensible to subsitute for a turbo - at least it wasn't cancelled!

Hi Devon Metro,

The turbo isn't a substitution as swlines demonstrated it's a scheduled change.

If there is a problem with an HST on a busier route it is sensible on those occasions to cascade the change and the Cotswolds gets the smaller train. I agree under these circumstances something is better than nothing. This isn't the case here.

Finally they are returning 180s that would make that academic.

Andy,

Much of this ground was covered a while back as the wind-down of Adelantes began.

Please note I said they were suitable for MOST Cotswold Line services - the loadings on the 08.37 in recent years made it a candidate for an HST, but due to the light loads on its journey out to Worcester, the 05.42 is first choice to get its HST pinched to cover other services where HSTs are essential.

To flesh out the 'most', what I mean is the 05.50 from Moreton (Adelantes cope with the loading on this throughout to London), then HSTs for the rest of the peak into Oxford and London, but for anything leaving Worcester after 9am, an HST is overkill capacity-wise and an Adelante could accommodate those joining at Oxford as well. In the other direction, HSTs are pretty empty up until the 15.51 from London, but from the 19.21 onwards they are not needed.

In any case, HSTs are here to stay, so any discussion of splitting Adelantes at Oxford is academic - FGW don't want to pay the leasing fees any more, which are sky-high by most accounts, for a train that, sadly, has never been noted for reliability.

Re the Chiltern Clubmans, yes, I do use them (and CrossCountry 170s) on occasion, and in my view they are not of the same quality as a passenger vehicle as an Adelante, nor even a 175, to make a fairer comparison. Nothing with doors at 1/3 and 2/3 positions along the coach ever will compare well with end doors. If Clubmans were to turn up on the Cotswold Line, I know what the reaction of people travelling from, er, Malvern would be - not good.

PS: The centre car on a 166 has an area of 2+2 standard class seating, with tables - I believe it was originally intended to be first class. And there are still many people in the rail industry who can't believe Chiltern scrapped first class, given they serve some of the wealthiest communities in the whole country.

With Chiltern, the whole train is First Class. ;D

You are probable right- HSTs are overkill off peak.

But- it is harder than you think to simply "switch" to HSTs during the peaks because of diagrams (e.g. An evening peak form Padd should be an HST. This means that the up afternoon off peak (empty) has to be an HST. But that means that the noon off peak down service has to be an HST.... and so on....

Can you see? It is either one or the other (or Thames Turbos >:( ).

And also- where do you keep the Adelantes/HSTs when they are not being used?

This is a joke, right? I don't often travel first but I would expect something better than a Chiltern Clubman when I do pay the extra.

By first moving Adelantes on to the Cotswold Line, and now going, as far as is practical, all-HST, FGW recognised the deficiencies of Turbo-type trains - and I include 168s/170s etc in that definition - for longer journeys and did something about it, so let's give them some credit for that.

In contrast, Chiltern has stuck with the original BR Class 166 Turbo Express concept, of taking a basic suburban DMU shell (165) and upping the interior spec, even though on Birmingham to London runs a better train would make them a more attractive proposition compared with Pendolinos, which may be fast, but have precious little else going for them.

Getting back to the original notion here, if it really were the case that there were Turbos turning up all over the place on the Cotswold Line, I would be the first to complain to FGW, but they just aren't out there and haven't been since the end of the Christmas and New Year period, except on the handful of trains they are meant to be on. An Adelante turning up now and again until the extra HST arrives is far from a disaster.

It went to all HST after a bunch of whiney commuters somehow got the adelante "issue" into the house of commons a few years back. At which point, FGW agreed with them/the dft to revert back to shortened HSTS.

The change has been coming for a LONG time, stop trying to look suprised.

2-3 years ago FGW promised to get rid of the majority of the turbos and provide 125mph capable rolling stock, this never happened as the Adelante were so unreliable and were used on many of the peak trains so were impossibly crowded (only 2 HSTs each way morning and evening then). After 18months of failing to keep this promise FGW promised to introduce refurbished HSTs, now over a year past the promised introduction the final HST has been refurbished but still we get train swaps. Another broken promise.

WillC....yes any train is better than one that fails to turn up....the 0837 WOS-PAD is particularly bad for this as it is the first train down the line in the morning and often gets terminated at oxford if there are any signal/train problems in the morning.

As for turbos off peak, then two weeks ago I took the 0937 WOS-PAD, turbo as scheduled but absolutely packed and I had to stand between Charlbury and Reading. Yes a lot of the time smaller trains can be used, but the demand is incredibly peaky and available rolling stock does not allow for this.

I have been commuting for over 6 years on this line and have seen many 'regulars' go back to the car purely for reliability and the ability to get a seat issues.

FGW really need to realise that after so many broken promises commuters on the cotswold line are fed up with being at the bottom of the rolling stock cascade when the inevitable train breakdown occurs.

I started these silly commutes in 2004 - and at first I went standard - until I realised how prevalent turbos were and that they didnt have tables in standard.  I very quickly went first and am now spoilt.

However, if there were a clubman (where every seat has a table) or even a 175 or 158 (I have commuted ludlow - manchester in the past) I wouldnt bother with a first class ticket.  To me, its all about the tables.

I'd rather a clubman than a refurbed HST standard class.

Surprised? I just don't know where you're coming from with this. Who's surprised and about what?

You seem to have a bee in your bonnet about these "whiney commuters". Are you going to tell us that FGW's passengers haven't had anything to whine about in recent years? If people want to involve their MPs, that's their right. And ditching Adelantes was FGW's decision, due to the high cost of running them and their unreliability, nothing to do with the DfT.

Ian, while the last refurbished HST power cars may recently have left Loughborough, others which were re-engined earlier are going back there for remedial work, or other attention, so the full fleet still isn't available. The first time I saw anything about FGW acquiring the extra HST it stated that it was specifically intended to provide a "hot spare" so there would be a bit of slack to allow for last-minute failures to be replaced with the minimum of fuss.

If the Adelantes had all left FGW by now as planned, then something beginning with T would be turning up on the 05.42/09.38 whenever there are problems and none of us wants to see that.

In some ways it is..... although a Chiltern guard did once say this!!!! :P

But- hey. Clubmans are perfectly good. They are not Turbos or Networker Express Turbos, they are Turbosars. Ie- a lot better. They are very comfortable, have a reasonable speed, and have plenty of seats. ;D

First class on a Thames Turbo is the same as second class on a Clubman- remember that! ;)


Absolutely. Hopfully the HST from EMT will help, although I suspect it will be sent to Bristol in the end.....  >:(