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Title: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: grahame on January 05, 2019, 01:53:08 From The Morning Star (https://morningstaronline.co.uk/article/transport-should-be-run-public-service-everyone’s-benefit) - written by a former mayor of London who has considerable experience in public transport
Quote Transport should be run as a public service for everyone’s benefit Labour is right to stand for bringing our railways back into public ownership so they are run in the interests of passengers, not private profit, writes KEN LIVINGSTONE ... Lots of views in the (quite long article) ...and facts and views somewhat merged into each other so that the boundaries are woolly. I would certainly agree that transport should have the passenger's benefit as one of its primary aims - perhaps the key aim. I would go wider and add in potential new passenger's benefit, and the benefit of those who's lives those passengers benefit by being able to travel well. Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Reginald25 on January 05, 2019, 07:38:15 Politics aside, Ken Livingstone achieved much for London when mayor. If you've traveled on the Overground south of Shoreditch, what a transformation. And this is reflected in the number of passengers.
Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Red Squirrel on January 05, 2019, 14:27:48 Quote Each year the Tories try to pass the buck when it comes to these rail hikes, yet the reality is that the amount by which train companies can raise regulated fares is the responsibility of the Transport Secretary. Of course this would no longer be the case if the railways were nationalised, because... um... er... Squirrel! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Faa2dHJNFqQ) Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: CyclingSid on January 05, 2019, 16:16:14 Wot, no newts!
Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: TaplowGreen on January 05, 2019, 16:39:14 Impossible to take the author or the source seriously, given the disgrace in which the former left public life which casts a long shadow over anything he may have achieved and the (historic and current) agenda of the latter.
I'm reminded, with some irony, of the general contempt for journalism and newspapers generally on display within this forum - but yes of course nationalisation would solve everything! ::) Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Red Squirrel on January 05, 2019, 17:08:05 I'm reminded, with some irony, of the general contempt for journalism and newspapers generally on display within this forum... Not all journalists, and not all newspapers... though even the best get it wrogn sometimes. Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: TaplowGreen on January 05, 2019, 17:14:36 I'm reminded, with some irony, of the general contempt for journalism and newspapers generally on display within this forum... Not all journalists, and not all newspapers... though even the best get it wrogn sometimes. Indeed - hence my use of the word "general" - as in mainly, with some exceptions - the irony comes with the citation of the Morning Star, barely in circulation (since the Soviets stopped buying it), even less taken seriously, but still retaining a reputation for bone headed Stalinism. Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: TonyK on January 05, 2019, 20:17:08 Thank you for posting that, grahame - the Morning Star is not my usual chip-wrapper. Nor many other peoples, for that matter.
As a piece of journalism, that article weighs heavily on rhetoric and ideology rather than research and facts, but I wouldn't have expected anything else, given the readership, most of whom will probably have spoken to Ken in person within the past 12 months or so. It has the tone of an angry letter to the Bristol Post about it, as the author extols the virtues of having a civil servant driving the train. Methinks the author is trying to get back in the good books of the current labour leadership. Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Bmblbzzz on January 06, 2019, 11:28:44 In the 70s and 80s I spent many hours examining the Morning Star in Swindon waiting room. Along with its sister engine the North Star.
Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: IndustryInsider on January 06, 2019, 12:05:19 In the 70s and 80s I spent many hours examining the Morning Star in Swindon waiting room. Along with its sister engine the North Star. Perhaps if the Morning Star ever ceases publication, they'll also call the last edition 'Evening Star'? ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_9F_92220_Evening_Star Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: TaplowGreen on January 06, 2019, 16:32:32 In the 70s and 80s I spent many hours examining the Morning Star in Swindon waiting room. Along with its sister engine the North Star. Perhaps if the Morning Star ever ceases publication, they'll also call the last edition 'Evening Star'? ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_9F_92220_Evening_Star I've had a few evenings in the North Star in Ealing, often when the trains fell over and I was stuck at Ealing Broadway - sadly a pale shadow of its former self now. Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Red Squirrel on January 06, 2019, 21:36:50 In the 70s and 80s I spent many hours examining the Morning Star in Swindon waiting room. Along with its sister engine the North Star. Perhaps if the Morning Star ever ceases publication, they'll also call the last edition 'Evening Star'? ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_9F_92220_Evening_Star Of course the Evening Star is the Morning Star - and there's a lesson there for all of us, he said profoundly... Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: ChrisB on January 07, 2019, 10:35:00 Politics aside, Ken Livingstone achieved much for London when mayor. If you've traveled on the Overground south of Shoreditch, what a transformation. And this is reflected in the number of passengers. Like removing the sequencing of traffic lights on London's major highways so you now stop at more lights than before....and they haven't been fully resequenced, even now Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: TaplowGreen on January 07, 2019, 11:10:28 Politics aside, Ken Livingstone achieved much for London when mayor. If you've traveled on the Overground south of Shoreditch, what a transformation. And this is reflected in the number of passengers. Like removing the sequencing of traffic lights on London's major highways so you now stop at more lights than before....and they haven't been fully resequenced, even now He's been stuck on red for decades (.......I'm here all week, twice on Fridays, try the fish) Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Red Squirrel on January 07, 2019, 11:21:13 Politics aside, Ken Livingstone achieved much for London when mayor. If you've traveled on the Overground south of Shoreditch, what a transformation. And this is reflected in the number of passengers. Like removing the sequencing of traffic lights on London's major highways so you now stop at more lights than before....and they haven't been fully resequenced, even now I'm intrigued by this statement. One person's red light is another's green, and 'greens all the way' on one route suggest other routes must wait longer. I found this piece in The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-how-livingstone-has-brought-congestion-to-capital-179564.html) which, whilst initially suggesting that Livingstone fiddled with traffic light sequencing to make the Congestion Charge more palatable, goes on to half-admit that pedestrian phases had previously been set too short - which, based on the form of post-war highways engineers, seems fairly likely. Modern traffic signalling systems tend to use SCOOT (http://www.traffictechnologytoday.com/news.php?NewsID=37610) to optimise traffic flows; prior to SCOOT signal timing was pretty crude. Many authorities (including London presumably) have adopted a hierarchy of transport users1 with pedestrians and cyclists at the top; this hierarchy is programmed into SCOOT and may give drivers, with their in-group bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism), the feeling that they are being short-changed. 1. See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/341513/pdfmanforstreets.pdf, table 3.2 Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: ChrisB on January 07, 2019, 12:00:08 I'm intrigued by this statement. One person's red light is another's green, and 'greens all the way' on one route suggest other routes must wait longer. Quote Not sure I agree with your logic....if the red- and green-phases remain the same length before & after adjustment, but just rephased with a delay such each set turn against the main flow before they are reached, then the green aspect on the side-flow remains green for the same length of time as previously.... Quote I found this piece in The Independent (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/revealed-how-livingstone-has-brought-congestion-to-capital-179564.html) which, whilst initially suggesting that Livingstone fiddled with traffic light sequencing to make the Congestion Charge more palatable, goes on to half-admit that pedestrian phases had previously been set too short - which, based on the form of post-war highways engineers, seems fairly likely. Livingstone was quite happy to admit what he'd done at the time, and was done for the reason given. Wholesale too. While phases may well hjave been adjusted for pedestrians to get longer since, no wholesale reversion was ever made. Ask any cabbie worth his salt still working since Livingstone's time in office. Modern traffic signalling systems tend to use SCOOT (http://www.traffictechnologytoday.com/news.php?NewsID=37610) to optimise traffic flows; prior to SCOOT signal timing was pretty crude. Many authorities (including London presumably) have adopted a hierarchy of transport users1 with pedestrians and cyclists at the top; this hierarchy is programmed into SCOOT and may give drivers, with their in-group bias (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In-group_favoritism), the feeling that they are being short-changed. 1. See https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/341513/pdfmanforstreets.pdf, table 3.2 Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Red Squirrel on January 07, 2019, 12:20:38 ....if the red- and green-phases remain the same length before & after adjustment, but just rephased with a delay such each set turn against the main flow before they are reached, then the green aspect on the side-flow remains green for the same length of time as previously.... Yes, that would seem like an act of sabotage. However my understanding - and I should immediately admit that I haven't studied London's traffic signalling system, so I may well be wrong - is that prior to SCOOT, the signals were not linked over wide areas and ran on local timers, so any such act of sabotage would have required constant tinkering to maintain the disruption as the clocks drifted. Livingstone was quite happy to admit what he'd done at the time, and was done for the reason given. Wholesale too. Did he go on record? Can you provide a link? I'd be interested to know exactly what he said... Ask any cabbie worth his salt still working since Livingstone's time in office. I had reason to travel by taxi quite a bit during recent protracted road works to replace Victorian water pipes in our area. Talking to the drivers, you'd have thought fresh piped water was a curse. Whilst taxi drivers have a right to an opinion, I think it's best to season it with any salt they may be able to spare. Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: ChrisB on January 07, 2019, 14:04:32 He did go on record, yes - but I've no chance of finding it as I can't remember where....and don't have the time to google...
By asking any cabbie - the LTDA took this up at the time - and most cabbies of that era remember. Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Bmblbzzz on January 07, 2019, 14:39:29 In the 70s and 80s I spent many hours examining the Morning Star in Swindon waiting room. Along with its sister engine the North Star. Perhaps if the Morning Star ever ceases publication, they'll also call the last edition 'Evening Star'? ;) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BR_Standard_Class_9F_92220_Evening_Star Of course the Evening Star is the Morning Star - and there's a lesson there for all of us, he said profoundly... Or is it the other way round? Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: Red Squirrel on January 07, 2019, 15:00:23 He did go on record, yes - but I've no chance of finding it as I can't remember where....and don't have the time to google... By asking any cabbie - the LTDA took this up at the time - and most cabbies of that era remember. Well if you do find time to track it down, I'd be very interested in the detail. The most relevant thing I found in my googling was a quote from the Chairman of the LTDA describing cycling campaigners as 'the ISIS of London'... Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: TonyK on January 08, 2019, 14:08:37 I had reason to travel by taxi quite a bit during recent protracted road works to replace Victorian water pipes in our area. Talking to the drivers, you'd have thought fresh piped water was a curse. Whilst taxi drivers have a right to an opinion, I think it's best to season it with any salt they may be able to spare. I asked an Edinburgh cabbie for his view on the tramway, then sort of under construction "NAY-ONE wants it!" And in Blackpool, when asking about the extension to North Station, I got a similar answer. Title: Re: Ken Livingstone on transport as a public service Post by: JayMac on January 08, 2019, 14:54:43 Indeed. Cabbies are well known for their unbiased and authoritative insight when it comes to traffic management or alternatives to their service.
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