Great Western Coffee Shop

I'm hoping there are a fare expert or two around this evening.

Tomorrow afternoon - Melksham to Stourbridge Town
Tuesday morning - Stourbridge Town to Birmingham New Street for 09:00 arrival
Tuesday middle of day - Birmingham New Street to Bath Spa
Tuesday evening around 8 p.m. Bath Spa to Melksham.

I can find my public transport times, but what tickets do I need? I have an old fogie's card ...

Using a Routing Guide easement/loophole...

Melksham - Bromsgrove Off Peak Return. £20.15
There is a Routeing Guide easement that allows passengers travelling via Yate to Bromsgrove to double-back via Birmingham New St. Just um, forget to double back.


I've said before that there's nothing written in black and white that disallows starting/ending short or breaking a journey at a station from where one is allowed to double-back. I've never had an issue with CrossCountry TMs or New St gateline staff when presenting a ticket to/from Bromsgrove whilst using the above easement. Only once queried by a TM who accepted without further question once I explained the easement. You're under no obligation to explain your actual journey - just say there's an easement that allows you to travel via Birmingham New St.

Monday afternoon, Birmingham Stns - Stourbridge Town Anytime Day Single £3.45
Tuesday Morning, Stourbridge Town - Birmingham Stns Anytime Day Single £3.45.

(You'll need to walk/tram to Moor St or Snow Hill for Stourbridge Junction and the branch to Stourbridge Town)

Then on Tuesday midday start short at Birmingham New St on the return portion of the Melksham - Bromsgrove Off Peak Return, breaking your journey in Bath.

Otherwise it's a Melksham - Birmingham New St Off Peak Return at £41.05 plus the above singles to/from Stourbridge Town. A Melksham - Stourbridge Town Off Peak Return doesn't really work as you can't travel via Brum with that.

That's fascinating Bignosemac. Though how would someone trying to make this journey know that this fare even existed?  I've put in a hypothetical journey from Melksham to Bromsgrove into National Rail and the only fare it offers me is a £78.10 single via Birmingham with no return fares available. Curiously it does offer a £21 single in the other direction. 

Do you know if there is anything similar coming from the Newport direction, or would someone taking advantage of this have to travel via Bristol Parkway?


 

The easement states that you must travel via Yate with and 'Any Permitted' ticket. Newport to Bromsgrove fares allow that route (Newport - Bristol Parkway - (Birmingham New St) - Bromsgrove) and the walk up fares are all 'Any Permitted'. Because of the via Yate part of the easement you can't travel via Chepstow.

You won't get booking engines to correctly show the easement even if you specify 'via Birmingham New St' in the options. It's one of those easements you just have to know about from years of studying the Routeing Guide.

As even, Bignosemac, you are spectacularly good value.  I was playing around with going in via Worcester and doing the loop - looking at Melksham to Old Hill which I think is valid both ways round. However, a Bromsgrove ticket might give me a return option that allows me to use a Cross Country express. Mind, I will have p-l-e-n-t-y of time between finishing in Birmingham and starting in Bath.

I won't detail the suggestion that National Rail made ... suffice to say it was VERY much more expensive ... at least it came down to under £100 once the railcard discount was applied!

I can save the walk across Brum and change at Galton Bridge, I think?

BNM never fails to impress me with his ticketing knowledge.

Thanks Bignosemac.  But to come back to the question of how would I know such a fare to Bromsgrove exists (and more to the point, whether they exist from other stations, eg Bristol),  if National Rail doesn't tell me, I can't buy it online, and I wouldn't know whether or not I could ask for one at a ticket office. It's as if they are hiding the cheapest fare.  Do you see what I mean?

That also means that from Melksham I have to come / go via Bristol Parkway rather than via Swindon  :D

Easements aren't meant to be used to get a cheaper fare to the double-back point. Unintended consequences that introduce legitimately exploitable loopholes. The Bromsgrove easement is there because of the limited journey opportunities from stations to the south of Yate to Bromsgrove. They are an imperfect solution to increasing journey opportunities though. As, for instance, as grahame notes, you can't travel from Melksham via Swindon and Stroud and use the easement under discussion due to its 'via Yate' requirement.

From Greater Bristol/Bath and surrounding stations to Bromsgrove there are two walk up fare routeings. 'Not via Birmingham' and 'Any Permitted'. The latter allows the use of the easement to travel via Birmingham but those 'Any Permitted' fares between Bristol/Bath and Bromgrove are only a couple pounds cheaper than those to Birmingham.

I agree that there are many easements that aren't correctly coded into journey planners and booking engines. Whether this is deliberate or oversight I know not. This Bromsgrove one is one of those that isn't coded. As a counterpoint though I can mention a Newbury easement that is coded. Travelling from Westbury and surrounding stations to Newbury, its allowed, via easement, to double-back via Reading. This potentially saves money on a trip to Reading if you *ahem* forget to double-back.

Could doing this be treated in some circumstances as "traveling short" which I gather you are not allowed to do or are we looking at two different things here?

From the National Rail Conditions of Travel:

Using a double-back easement means the station where you double-back becomes an intermediate station on your journey. Absent of any specific prohibition (and there isn't one written into either the Conditions of Travel or easements text) then starting/ending short there or breaking your journey there is permitted by NRCoT 16.4.

I've never had serious issue breaking a journey whilst travelling and using a double-back easement. However, what I write here is not in any sense a legal opinion and such advice should be taken at your own risk. When using loopholes and grey areas its important that I point out that YMMV. Saying "bignosemac said it was okay" is unlikely to wash if you are challenged. Know the easement, know the Conditions of Travel, be calm, be confident... "There's a Rail Delivery Group Routeing Guide easement that allows me to travel via X. That's what I'm doing."

Thanks. I was thinking of the situation where someone actually wants to travel to Bromsgrove, and the system doesn't give the cheapest fare, and almost seems to go out of its way to not show it.  Very unfare!

Your comment about fares from Bristol not being as cheap got me researching.  It looks as though an off peak return from Melksham is 30.50, but from Bristol it's 55.30.  Is that correct? Is it allowed to buy a ticket from Melksham but only starting at Bristol? It's all very confusing, but the fare into Birmingham is so expensive that it's worth trying to understand what cheaper options are possible.

Yes. The fare from Melksham to Bromsgrove is valid to start short at Bristol. That's what I used to use on my day trips to Birmingham from Bristol TM. Then on to Bromsgrove of course. ;) ;) ;)

Don't forget to comply with any time restrictions. When starting short it's best to factor in the unused part of the journey, and not start from the intermediate station when it wouldn't have been possible to get there, from the origin printed on the ticket due, to a time restriction.

Sorry to grahame and co. for skewing the Melksham passenger figures with my numerous trips to Birmingham that started from Bristol TM but had the origin of Melksham on the ticket. :P If that concerns you, you can instead chose Chippenham to Bromsgrove instead. Same fares, same easement.

Time restrictions is another minefield isn't it? With Melksham having fewer trains than Chippenham it may be better to use the latter, although I think Melksham's need for more tickets is probably the greater. :)

I'm sure I'm not the only one to find all this an eye-opener, although it is probably "old hat" to regulars on the forum. Thank you again Bignosemac.

Looking back a few years, Melksham's ORR ticket sales numbers bore no resemblance to the actual passenger numbers and that was both a curse and a blessing.  These days the distortions are much much less; I do wonder about how much the distortions are at stations commonly used for ticket splitting. And Melksham, thank goodness, is safe (and growing again now that there's space on the longer trains) in its real numbers.  But by all means buy yourself a "Melksham Special" as fares are added to the fare system for you to buy, and thank you for the thought and the publicity it will bring.

My final leg back on Tuesday will be by bus from Bath ... but I will be on a return train ticket from Melksham. Real victory in sorting out the system would be if I could use my train ticket on the First bus because the last First train had gone.

Real victory would be to travel by train to Melksham that late in the evening

But Bath - Melksham is a FareSaver bus isn't it? I was on the X72 on Saturday for the first time....

Faresaver run the X72 on Monday to Saturday until about 6 p.m., hourly with some extra

First run the D3, Monday to Saturday, every 30 minutes but much thinner in the evening, last bus 23:20 from Bath. It also runs on Sunday - every 2 hours, just five rounds trips so last bus off Bath at 19:00.

The routes do differ somewhat ... and the D3 in the evening picks up some of the stuff that the X72 covers during the day. If you want details of how the fares work, I'll up my server limits to let me post a long enough article  ;D

Bath-Melksham is served by both the First D3 service and the Faresaver X72 service. They combine to provide an every 15 minute frequency between Melksham-Bath during Monday to Friday daytimes, with the AvonRider ticket valid on both services.

Faresaver X72 - http://www.faresaver.co.uk/timetables/5b8cdc4b48847.pdf

First D3 Timetable - https://www.firstgroup.com/bristol-bath-and-west/plan-journey/timetables/?day=1&source_id=2&service=D3&routeid=22442381&operator=3&print=pdf

Sorry for long links - On mobile and not got time to make more user friendly.

There are also easements which are coded into the journey planners, but that have subsequently been removed from the document, but not uncoded IYSWIM.

I was using one just the other day and got my ticket checked at the most "vulnerable" point, which raised an eyebrow, but nothing more was said.

But easements aren't coded - or shouldn't be - they are distributed as part of the NRG data feed on every day there is a change.

Try Chippenham - Bromsgrove in a booking engine with a via point of Birmingham New St added. I don't think there's any engine that will show the easement allowed journey opportunities. Not coded.

Try Westbury - Newbury with a via point of Reading. Many/most booking engines will show the easement allowed journeys. Coded.

Not sure if its a 15 minute frequency. I thought there were 3 an hour? Usually only use the FB due to the variations on the route which allows me to get closer to home, so not too sure of the Faresaver times.

On Monday to Friday, from 1053 through to 1523 there are 4 buses an hour from Melksham Market Place to Bath at an every 15 minute frequency. The X72 leaves Melksham Market Place at 53 and 23 minutes past the hour, and the D3 leaves Melksham Market Place at 08 and 38 minutes past the hour.

I posted links to both the X72 and D3 timetables in my original post.

Especially at the gate line at Paddington 😀

My use of that versatile word "coded" may have been confusing.

The NRG data feed includes easements, and it is expected that routeing engines will understand these and implement the easements. No software changes (i.e coding) should be required.

The data format can represent almost all the easements wa can see in the text file, and that includes the relevant one (700351). There are some easements that contain elements that don't map onto any of the definition records, but I have no idea whether these words are really needed (by machine or human) or just there because.

There is no way in the data feed to indicate that an easement exists but cannot be represented in the file. The format of the readable text is undefined (except as "free text") so is not a substitute. Of course the data feed may not be complete or self-consistent, but there's no identified source of "additional definition information for humans".

That leaves the question of whether the routeing engines actually implement all the easements correctly. I think we all know that these are big complicated heaps of software, and all of them give the wrong answers at times. The most complicated bits of the fares/routes/timetables system are where the errors arise, and easements are complicated to deal with so it's no great surprise they aren't always allowed. What's harder to say, or even to guess, is whether the software should cope but fails, requires some human help (e.g. to tweak data tables rather then reprogram) which is lacking, or this was never part of the design but was accepted as a shortcoming to be incorporated later (and may or may not ever be).

Since the topic has arisen, here (as far as I can work out) is the current set of data feed specifications for journey planners. Probably only suitable for those of you really like interface definition documents - but as my Dad used to say, there's no accounting for tastes.

National Routeing Guide Data Feed Specification
Document Ref: RSPS5047 Version: 02-00    15-May-2017 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiAl-HI-v7fAhVFtHEKHaVjC8YQFjABegQICBAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.raildeliverygroup.com%2Ffiles%2FPublications%2Fservices%2Frsp%2FRSPS504702-00NationalRoutingGuideDataFeedSpecification.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2Pn69PHETV_DARMCSraJdJ)

Timetable Information Data Feed Interface Specification
Document Ref: RSPS5046 Version: 03-00 01-Aug-2018 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwjG0vOH-P7fAhWkThUIHbGIC9IQFjAFegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.raildeliverygroup.com%2Ffiles%2FPublications%2Fservices%2Frsp%2FRSPS5046_timetable_information_data_feed_interface_specification.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0fSCvHvYsAr4HYfhebqRp3)

Fares and Associated Data Feed Interface Specification
Document Ref: RSPS5045 Version: 02-00 15-May-2017 (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwj1r9G6-f7fAhVjURUIHY_ACdYQFjAAegQICRAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.raildeliverygroup.com%2Ffiles%2FPublications%2Fservices%2Frsp%2FRSPS504502-00FaresandAssociatedDataFeedInterfaceSpecification.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0RK5mWNR7lZFlf6TwWnT5V)

Note that none of these was located via a publicly offered link, and older versions are also still accessible on-line and can be found in searches. In the case of the most obvious link on National Rail's open data support pages, that leads to a very old version of the fares document.

Yeah. Sorry, I've just come back from Bath and studied the timetable, and there are 4 an hour. I've learnt something today!

An update from the trip ... though final plans were reduced to take out Stourbridge and Bath Spa, as I've got a severe cold / bout of the Flu and have slashed my plans just to the essentials.  I stuck absolutely to allowed fares (of course) but did make use of the easement.  I  came up from Worcester this morning, via Bromsgrove and doubled back at New Street, stopping there for a couple of hours for my meeting.   Whether the staff or barriers knew about the easement, I haven't a clue - the barriers at New Street were locked open in both directions and there was no ticket check on the Cross Country train.

Many thanks, BigNoseMac, for reminding me of that easement (you have told me before, I know, but my mind is a sieve at times) and I owe you a pint.   I'm off for a pint of hot medicinal orange.