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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: lbraine on February 10, 2019, 04:47:51 pm



Title: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: lbraine on February 10, 2019, 04:47:51 pm
On a slow moving train past Reading depot this AM I was able to see the arrival of what I can only suspect is the first Class 319 EMU being ‘cascaded’ to GWR usage.

It certainly looked worse for wear - sporting the dull ex-Govia Thameslink colours.

I can only only presume the units will be brought up to GWR specification by Reading depot skills ? I think they have their work cut out.

As a long time user of Thameslink when the 319s was shiny and new - back in the early 1990’s - there were not great units (poor ride quality, uncomfortable 3+2 seating, awful PA system) back then. I shudder to think of their reception when and where they are introduced as a replacement for the respectable 387’s


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: Surrey 455 on February 10, 2019, 05:56:35 pm
It certainly looked worse for wear - sporting the dull ex-Govia Thameslink colours.

If it was looking that bad I'm going to take a guess that perhaps it was in First Capital Connect livery with Thameslink stickers on it. Incidentally it has been reported that a few have already been delivered to Reading depot according to this thread from 23rd January.

Incidentally there seems a growing collection of ex-Thameslink 319s at Reading depot, but as far as I can see from the passing train they don't look to have any additional underfloor gubbins by way of diesel engines, generators etc. Anyone know why?


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: Adelante_CCT on February 10, 2019, 06:08:40 pm
Correct, at least 2 (possibly more?) have arrived.

I did see one last night as I was going past the depot and it appeared to be connected to a brake van and possibly the class 08 shunter (it was dark so couldn't tell), it probably has been there a while

Quote
I can only only presume the units will be brought up to GWR specification by Reading depot skills ? I think they have their work cut out.
The idea is that these are only temporary and to be used for driver training/familiarisation to have them in good stead for when the class 769s arrive.


As Surrey 455 has alluded to, more information on the topic is available here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=19683.0)


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: didcotdean on February 10, 2019, 06:11:29 pm
I thought the intention was for these 319s to be used for driver training purposes to get a head start on when the 769s are delivered later this year. Although with timing of everything I guess you never know what might happen. Originally though they were turbo replacements, so not much difference in vintage there.


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 10, 2019, 08:53:22 pm
Yes, at the moment they’re there for staff familiarisation- both depot maintenance staff and drivers.  They might be pushed into action should the 769s not arrive in a timely manner.  Which looks quite possible!


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: Timmer on February 11, 2019, 07:34:53 am
Yes, at the moment they’re there for staff familiarisation- both depot maintenance staff and drivers.  They might be pushed into action should the 769s not arrive in a timely manner.  Which looks quite possible!
You can see the press along the Thames Valley getting hold of this:  ‘Brand new trains replaced by ones built in the 1980’s’. Another Dft mess for the GWR PR machine to have to manage. ‘Please Sir, why are our of new trains being replaced by c**p built in the 1980’s? I thought we sent all that down to the West Country in the form of the Turbos’.


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: stuving on February 11, 2019, 08:56:05 am
Yes, at the moment they’re there for staff familiarisation- both depot maintenance staff and drivers.  They might be pushed into action should the 769s not arrive in a timely manner.  Which looks quite possible!
You can see the press along the Thames Valley getting hold of this:  ‘Brand new trains replaced by ones built in the 1980’s’. Another Dft mess for the GWR PR machine to have to manage. ‘Please Sir, why are our of new trains being replaced by c**p built in the 1980’s? I thought we sent all that down to the West Country in the form of the Turbos’.

The PR approach is surely going to be "due to the delay in Crossrail starting, there is a temporary shortage of trains to fill" - with a bit of insinuation if the facts don't quite match. It's an old trick but it's been known to work.


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 11, 2019, 09:10:10 am
Well, before anyone gets too excited the 319s aren't 'crap' and in the form of their reincarnation of 769s look pretty smart, probably even smarter when in the GWR livery which has suited everything it's so far been applied to - and I believe air-cooling is being fitted to the GWR ones.  

Let's not forget that the original electrification plan had us getting a whole load of 319s, until that morphed into the 387s we have now.  When the 769s arrive they will mostly be used to provide a much needed capacity boost on the North Downs line - though I have reservations about how well they will work as a tri-mode train.  Any use of actual 319s is likely to be very short lived, before the 769s replace them, indeed it might not happen.

Though I guess if the press want to spin it in a negative way then they will be able to do so, witness negative press about the HST's heading to Scotrail which they have been forced to defend, despite many people down here eager to keep them.  You just can't win!

A more negative thing in my mind is the replacement of 332s on the premium Heathrow Express service with the anything-but-premium look and feel of a commuter train like the 387 - even if it is an excellent commuter train.  I doubt the modifications that will be made will change them that much.


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: onthecushions on February 11, 2019, 10:56:30 am

It's not just at Reading where 319's are arriving.

The clip below shows Bolton (that's in Lancashire) this morning.

OTC

https://twitter.com/i/status/1094865800987639809


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on February 11, 2019, 12:22:51 pm
Quote
When the 769s arrive they will mostly be used to provide a much needed capacity boost on the North Downs line

Would I be correct that there are plenty of stations on the North Downs Line where a 4-coach train won't fit?


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 11, 2019, 12:56:34 pm
I presume SDO will be fitted and cover for those that don’t as I don’t think extensions are being considered?  4-car 769s are nominally 80 metres against a 3-car Turbo at 69 metres, so not much longer.


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: onthecushions on February 11, 2019, 01:05:22 pm

Looking at the SA only Sandhurst (78.64m) and Gomshall( 91.44m?) are down for 3 car.

The rest are at least 4 car (based presumably on 20m/car).

OTC



Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: Sixty3Closure on February 11, 2019, 06:03:56 pm
Beginners question but are these Electric/Bi-bode/diesel and will my regular turbo from Oxford now have a few more seats?


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on February 11, 2019, 08:55:27 pm
319 is purely an EMU, but has 750V DC (3rd rail pick-up) and 25,000V AC (from overhead wires using a pantograph) capability.

They were most commonly used on the Thameslink routes (eg, Bedford to Gatwick) which run under central London, where I believe they swopped between electric modes in Farringdon Station (3rd rail to the south and OHLE to the north)

The 769 is an updated 319 with some diesel packs bolted underneath a few carriages to make it into a DEMU (I think that's what it would be called!)

As such they are ideal for GWR, as they can be used under the wires, on 3rd rail (like various sections between Reading and Gatwick) and away from both - possibly to Oxford, Basingtoke and maybe Bedwyn?


Title: Re: Class 319 arrives.....
Post by: Noggin on February 15, 2019, 02:15:12 pm
The 769 is an updated 319 with some diesel packs bolted underneath a few carriages to make it into a DEMU (I think that's what it would be called!)

As such they are ideal for GWR, as they can be used under the wires, on 3rd rail (like various sections between Reading and Gatwick) and away from both - possibly to Oxford, Basingtoke and maybe Bedwyn?

Almost, I think they'd be more appropriately classed as an EDMU as they are primarily electric, but that's splitting hairs.

Anyway, AFAIK the first round of the 769s will be just 25kV and diesel, with the ability to run on 750v DC to follow. The useful thing about the 319's is that the 25kV is transformed down to 750v, with a power bus running down the train. So the concept of the 769's is that the diesel engine and generator sets effectively pump 750v into that power bus, as though the unit was running on the third rail, so you can more or less use the same control gear, with a bit of extra kit in the cab to keep an eye on the engine. As ever though, the devil is in the detail and I believe that you need some fairly clever electronics to keep the two gensets from upsetting each other, which amongst other things is why they're still not in service yet. 

The 3rd-rail compatible 769's I believe need some extra switchgear to keep the engines isolated from the shoegear, no idea how far that has progressed yet.

As for usage, remember that in the modern railway everything has to be cleared to the nth degree, drivers have to be trained etc, so I would expect a relatively narrow swathe of London to Reading and then Reading to Gatwick once the 769 conversion is in place. 

The diesel engines are fitted on a raft under the trailer



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