Great Western Coffee Shop

I have started this topic to seperate it from other more generic posts.

This photograph shows current progress on the Downside P&R site:
http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/190209e-the-new-car-park-at-st-erth-for-the-park-and-ride-under-construction-copyright-roger-winnen-copy_orig.jpg

Due for completion around April or May 2019. Lelant Saltings will receive a Parliamentary service after that with only 2 trains calling daily.

I imagine all that land around the Lelant park and ride will be worth a fortune for re development before very long.

Surprisingly late for a May 2019 timetable change, I have (via TravelWatch) a copy of a service consultation for the ongoing services.  Looking at the list of consultees, RichardB should have a copy too.

Background: When the Park and Ride at Lelant Saltings is replaced by the Park at Ride at St Erth, it is proposed to:
* Run a 30 minute service daytime St Erth to St Ives as at present, but with extra turn around time at St Erth
* Remove most calls at Lelant Saltings (just one train each way per day remaining)
* Retain morning and evening calls at Lelant, and add calls in both directions at around 12:30 and 15:30
* All services to call at Carbis Bay rather than alternate services

Comment is made about some local use made of Lelant Saltings, offering Lelant or the bus as alternatives. Perhaps this traffic which is within the catchment of both stations has gravitated to the Saltings because of the much better service and will revert to Lelant in the future?  I am noting the extra calls at Lelant are lunchtime and school-end time.

I don't know whether TWSW will make any formal input, but I would be most interested to read any views from users - as I suspect would other consultees.  Those more local to the area, such as the Devon and Cornwall CRP, are far more likely to have a tuned insight than I have ... but comments / thoughts welcomed.








According to RTT the Lelant Saltings Parliamentary Services are: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/LTS/2019/05/22/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The revised Lelant services are: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/LEL/2019/05/22/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

The St.Ives half hourly service extends well into the evening: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/SIV/2019/05/22/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

And everything calls at Carbis Bay: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/CBB/2019/05/22/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

That all looks very positive to me.

Thanks Graham.  Yes, I have it too.  I have to say I am disappointed that the plan isn't to provide Lelant with an hourly service.  As it is, the plan leaves the Lelant area with no service for much of the day and while St Erth isn't far away, you can't safely walk along the road and I don't think we should be saying "Just take the bus".  Personally I think that Carbis Bay should be left as it is for the time being with an hourly service being provided at Lelant - the houses at Lelant Saltings are just ten minutes' walk away from Lelant.   

Once the revised service has run for the first Summer, GWR would then be able to see how it has been used and particularly if, in practice, they could fit a Carbis Bay call into all services as well as an hourly one at Lelant.    The view currently is that it will only be possible to fit one intermediate call into each train.  I'll be talking to Cornwall Council and others to see what their views are before responding to GWR.

It works the other way round too. GWR will be able to see how the revised service runs (with all calls at Carbis Bay), see how it has been used in practise, then fitting in an hourly call (by request) at Lelant if time/demand allows. I'm guessing extra calls at Carbis Bay are more financially incentive than an hourly service at Lelant?

It is further instructive to look at latest ORR figures for station use:
St Ives: 752,654
Carbis Bay: 234,688
Lelant: 9,618
Lelant Saltings: 145,110
St Erth: 261,664
Pinches of salt and interpretation needed all around and a reminder that if you look back at historic figures, they have been heavily distorted (I think) by things like line rover / buy for any journey ticket schemes, etc.

Also interesting to try to learn from these figures when considering that Lelant had an 8 hour gap in services in the middle of the day, but then its catchment overlaps with that of Lelant Saltings so it's pretty hard to forecast ahead (how many parked at Saltings, how many walked there?)

Carbis Bay numbers are not dissimilar to ... Topsham, Pewsey, Cookham ... (looking for places with between 200k and 250k per annum) ... short journeys, hourly train, logic might suggest that if the average wait time for people arriving randomly at the station was proportionally less to their average journey time, a significant uptake might be expected. ORR figures do not give destinations, but Carbis Bay with an average wait of 30 minutes and an average journey time of 8 minutes has a 4.0 ratio.

If you're hoping for a suggestion / conclusion here, sorry, I have none ... just looking at numbers to help understand the conundrum / choice(s).

It will be a massive loss for the families who use Lelant saltings when they
stay at the (very busy) holiday Park nearby.
They are certainly not going to traverse the busy road to
St.erth either.
 :( :(

Good point, 'jester'.  :-X

Yes, but if you look at a map its not too far to St.Erth.  Looking at the same map you can see Carbis Bay catchment area is easily ten times the size of Lelant Saltings, and its not just a seasonal resort.

Looking up something quite, quite different, I came across Cornwall Council's franchise input (https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/media/31527088/2018-02-21-cc-great-western-consultation-response.pdf).  It has the following to say about Lelant in answer to question 20:


My bolding. 

Rest of document very interesting too!

I agree the document referred to by grahame is most interesting. It seems to be a very well considered wish list for the new franchise to live up to. Someone/groups seem to have really done their homework.

If anyone is interested, I have Lostwithiel Town Council's submission to the consultation as a word document.

Yes, I have a personal interest in Item 14 which is looking very positive.

Looks very interesting.  I have heard rumblings / suggestions before - amazed I couldn't find a thread to started one at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=21166.0 . Please fill us in there.

That would be to the GW consultation rather than the St Ives one?   Very interested to hear what they have to say - maybe a separate thread?

State of Play as at 1500 today ....

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2IAv6dXgAUWluN.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2IAv6bWsAEonOP.jpg)

.... major progress still needed to make the May timetable change.

Rumour has it that the Government is likely to ask for a three-month extension so that the summer timetable doesn't start until August this year.  :D ;)

I should add that there's no truth to the rumour that they've approved a station at Pilning Westgate with Park&Ride facilities because they need SEWWEB votes to get the St Erth deal through...

Was the Extreme Rail Group putting pressure on again?

Announced today....
7th May - 31st May,  bus transfer St. Erth to Lelant Saltings for connection into a train service to St. Ives,  apart from early morning & late evening services.  To do the platform work at St. Erth.

That'll be a fun half term & bank holiday

It's only 12 minutes by bus St Erth to St Ives - having got people on the bus at St Erth, wouldn't it be quicker simply to drive them to St Ives?

You would need a lot of buses to match the capacity of the train service.  Also avoids traffic congestion in St.Ives.

and it will be a last hurrah for Lelant Saltings Park & Ride.

Even the shuttle to Saltings will need a lot of buses at bank holiday and halfterm!

The closure is to allow the bay platform to be re-engineered to remove the redundant line and extend the platform width.

The timing of it allows the rail replacement buses to use the new bus turning facilities at the front of the station rather than on the busy main road.

Not only does it include one of the May Bank Holidays and half term but also the St Ives food festival.

Great fun for those with luggage !! May half term in St Ives is extremely busy for family holidays  :o :o :( No mention of this on GWR website yet.

At a time when Andrew Haines is telling everyone how the passenger must come first, isn't this a wonderful example of how the passenger is low down the railway's list of priorities.  This could have been done in the winter months when passenger numbers would have been much lower, and it probably wouldn't have been so much of an issue not having the turning facilities.  Or if that's not the case, then would it have been the end of the world to leave the current set up until next winter? Or could a temporary arrangement involve a scaffolded platform over the redundant line to provide the extra width?

All the old forecourt area has now been paved at a bus stop shelter erected. I did have a photo but it's 4+ mb and I'm not techy enough to sort it so it will post...

I wonder if you were there at the same time as me...

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/serapr1.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/serapr2.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/serapr3.jpg)

Still some work to do on the bay platform though

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/serapr4.jpg)

Definitely more blue sky when I was there - scorchio
(14.00 today for the record!!!)

Ooh err that might have worked..

It did indeed.

I was there 09:30 on Thursday.

Loads of people and equipment on the site(s) north and south of the station today, there's a decent chance now of at least partial completion within the timescales. Progress has been impressive since my last visit. The construction of the disabled ramp access to and from the main down platform from the southern car park is now well underway too.

I'm concerned however that the St Ives platform work, and access to it, will lead to damage to the effective pristine nature of what's been built. There doesn't appear to be any 'dirty' road access to the work site and the machinery, spoil and construction materials will all need to be delivered and removed over the new build. I seriously can't see these operations being done by rail.

Does anyone have any access to the new track layout? Will the speed restriction into St Erth from the branch be lifted with the new track plans?

GWR suggest you allow an hour to travel from St Ives to St Erth for connections !!  :o Really ?

As First say rail tickets are valid on all buses to St.Ives on services 16 A17 and T2 I cannot imagine anyone would want to get the train as it is only a 12 minute trip on the bus and the A17 is half hourly direct from St.Erth to St.Ives.

Apart from it being a more scenic route by train. Its half the fun of going to St Ives.

16? That's Pz - St Ives & v.v via the North coast road, Gurnards Head/Zennor, etc; goes nowhere near St Erth

And the bus saves the walk up the hill from the station!

That is what the 'Upgrading St.Erth station Thursday 7 to Friday 31 May 2019' leaflet says. In fact it also includes the 16A from Penzance to St.Ives. Might be something to do with the disabled access at St.Erth as St.Ives tickets are valid to Penzance so you can double back as there is no lift at St.Erth.

The leaflet

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5kgMzsWkAIkDeE.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D5kgMztWwAcJGCY.jpg)

(Personal Twitter account)

Loving the cartoon railway worker. I for one didnt spot Mr Benn stepping out the back of the costume shop changing room, but I bet the St Erth folks are very glad he did.

and of course if the bus doesn't connect eg. Up Sleeper from St Erth leaves just before A17 arrives ...  ::) Hotel in St Erth on GWR if connections via Saltings fail ?

Some copyright waived (self taken) for the record, pictures from today, before the works start tomorrow.

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D55GlTvWwAAoqhB.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D55GlTuXsAApHDO.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D55GlTyWAAAiIjV.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D55GlTtWsAAH6rY.jpg)

Work in Progress taken today ... (once again Copyright waived)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6iXeJuWsAA7_Ln.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6iXeJuXoAImsJy.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6iXeJqXsAAXDal.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D6iXeJpXoAIDqKZ.jpg)

Progress continues ....

Platform

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7qs7pzX4AIm94e.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7qs892XYAE2m2X.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7qs9e_WwAAgOO9.jpg)

P & R

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7qtUXsWkAAdXTf.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7qtVp0W0AErILn.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D7qtWN-XsAASKi_.jpg)

(Personal Photos again)

Now reasonable suggestion that work should be completed to schedule for both segments of the work. Track and Buffer Stop now in place so just the civils around the platform to go. The P&R site is virtually deserted of people so must be very much in the closing stages.

Not planning to visit for a few days, but to report all is open, both the rebuilt platform and P&R site. Lelant Saltings reduced to 'Parliamentary' as from today.

In service pics (Today - mine again, same rules as before) ..

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8S_nIJX4AIQ46o.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8S_nIKXsAA64D5.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8S_nIMW4AEOhtk.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8S_nIOWwAYJpSN.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8S_vm-XkAA53gM.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8S_vm_XoAAEBFe.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8S_vm_WkAEc2iu.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8S_vm-W4AIuxsV.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8U7BhZU8AAlhXk.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8U7CGTUYAATgtk.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8U7CmYUEAALcya.jpg)

(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D8U7DGyUIAA_ead.jpg)

The Car Park will be operated by APCOA it seems, although the machines aren't working on the South side. The bus incidentally is driving pax between the Station forecourt and the South site.

Many, many thanks for those pictures

Isn't it astonishing to consider how things have changed.  On a line that was so nearly closed under the Beeching plan, we now have a platform widened to take the crowds, maximum length trains, and a service that's running as frequently as the line will cope with - even cutting out stops at Lelant (Central not Saltings) to speed the trains up!

Yes, we've come a long way from:

_{The Slow Train, Flanders and Swann}

Happily, they didn't all pass out of our lives...

This may be a silly question.....but why didn't they move the buffet side platform over and extend that to full length ?  Then you could have had passengers boarding one side and leaving the train from the other side - (at the same time ?). One way traffic on each platform.

Most of the flow to/from St Ives would be rail side, operating as you envisage Clan Line, would have made this difficult without taking more of the 'non rail' part of the Hub. Space is still tight on the North Side. A full fence reconstruct would have been needed too.

The one issue I think that needs some permanent remedial work is the area, currently temporarily fenced, around the buffer stop considering the potential volumes of potential pax in that area. The low level railings as on the leaflet illustration will need to be installed quickly.

I came up with the thought that
a) Dispatch with doors on both sides would be a more complex and perhaps lengthier process
b) Double sided isn't commonly built these days ... and might have needed a more detailed safety case
c) Traffic is predominantly to St Ives in the morning and from St Ives later in the day, so there are unlikely to be conflicting major flows off and on the same train.

Double sided works best (and is probably only used) for exceptionally high volume commuter traffic, either by emptying a train onto two platforms quickly, or emptrying onto one and loading it from another by careful timing of the door sequence. St Erth doesn't fit that match.

Lesson No.1.  Never put any signalling equipment immediately behind a buffer stop....... :P

The platform modifications were solely to cope with general passenger numbers. The old Platform3 was very narrow and could not efficiently handle growth in passengers. Wide platform is safer. Two sided boarding was never an issue , nor needed.

The D&C Rail Partnership have updated their website with full details of the P&R site and connections ....

https://greatscenicrailways.co.uk/stations/st-erth-park-and-ride/

There's a right mess going on the platform management, let me see if I can explain. The prime foot root from the South CP site to the train is up the ramp onto the Penzance direction platform and from there over the bridge to the Plymouth platform. This is where there's a kerfuffle.

All people coming off the bridge are being forced out of the station and back into the 'ticket hall' before coming out onto the St Ives platform, this is being done for fare issuing purposes. What's annoying is that this flow of P&R passengers is mixed with those coming from the East off of the mainline, the vast majority of these of course will be ticketed already, making an unnecessary detour.

When the service gets really busy this will cause imo unnecessary angst for Rail transferees.

This clearly hasn't been thought through in the design of the scheme.

and we had a promo for the P&R

Devon and Cornwall Partnership Tweet - subsequently deleted it seems.

Link not working for me. All I get is a message that the page cannot be found

Format looks right ... let's try another:

https://twitter.com/DCRailPart/status/1145969478607560704

It's been deleted for some reason.

Back online now

https://twitter.com/DCRailPart/status/1146372877299716096

In use earlier this week, several reports that it has been full at times over the summer months.

(https://i.imgur.com/dcFdrXj.jpg?1)

(https://i.imgur.com/35073dr.jpg?1)

Looks like lovely weather down that way.

Must find an excuse to travel from Snerth to Snives by train again soon.

Or do you mean change at Sterth for Stives?

From
https://www.cornwall.gov.uk/council-and-democracy/council-news-room/media-releases/news-from-2019/news-from-october-2019/good-news-for-cornwall-s-railways-as-number-of-journeys-soar/

Odds and ends associated with this project continue to be completed. I was at St Erth yesterday (29 Dec 2019) waiting for the 1626 up IET to Truro. The new high intensity LED lighting on the platforms installed intermittently over the autumn is superb. The throw across the platform area that each post is designed to cover is as near as perfect as far as I could see as night fell. A tremendous improvement.

Thats interesting.  Must have a look at that soon.  Does it throw much light pollution like the local street lighting around here does?

Light pollution is indeed significantly less, indeed Cornwall Council has been replacing light polluting sodium street lamps with more directional white light ones too. More recently the MOD have also replaced large sections of the offending perimeter security lighting at RNAS Culdrose with similar highly directional, less offensive, focussed white light lamps.