Great Western Coffee Shop

Following up from a thread on Oxford Evening Out tickets that brought us back to some more general issues


Melksham Station - what the ticket machine sells and other concerns.

Noting ... these issues are not (all) unique to Melksham; this thread follows on from a thread referring to Charlbury. Please add other examples to this thread as there may be widespread / systemic issues involved

1. The ticket machine has London (Paddington) return tickets on the front screen - offering these tickets (all period returns) at £177.00 (any time tickets) during the morning peak on Mondays to Fridays, and at £74.60 (off peak tickets) at all other times. A super off peak ticket is also available at £56.00 via a secondary menu, though having seen "Off Peak Return" on the front menu, passengers who are not familiar with rail travel are unlikely to realise that there may be a lower cost option.

The Super Off Peak ticket (the cheaper one on the secondary menu) is valid on all trains to London via Swindon except the 07:20 and 07:49, both of which require an ay time ticket.  There are no services at all from Melksham to London on which an off peak, but not a super off peak is valid, unless you break your journey in Swindon overnight.

The Super Off Peak ticket is also valid on ALL trains back from London on Saturdays, Sundays and Bank Holidays. It is also valid back from London on trains at 11:45 12:30 14:15 on Monday to Friday, and at 19:12 on Monday to Thursday. Anytime tickets are required from London to Melksham on the 07:45 and 17:45 Monday to Friday, and Off Peak tickets (rather than Super off peak) are required on the 09:45, 16:30 Monday to Friday, and on the 19:00 on Friday.

Melksham to London is about a 90 minute journey, with day trips being common place. I would suggest that on a Saturday and Sunday most people are likely to be coming back the same day, and that the £56.00 ticket should be offered on the front menu and not the £74.60 ticket - the chance that a person travelling to London on a Saturday morning will be coming back at 09:45 or 16:30 during the following week is pretty darned slim.  I would also suggest that on a Monday to Thursday morning after the morning peak, the £56.00 ticket should be offered - it's far more likely that the person will be returning at 19:12 or in the middle of a following day than at 09:45 or 16:30 (16:30 possible, but that's a short London trip!).

As I understand it, rules do not require ticket machines to offer all tickets, nor offer the most likely to be best value on their front panel - but it feels slightly "dirty" to me to promote a product that's £18.60 more expensive than most people are likely to want on a Saturday over and above the best value ticket.  It feels even dirtier because it's far from clear to rail newbies that there's likely to be a hidden lower price option, and because there's no definition that I've found in the machine that tells you which fares apply to which specific trains - just a general statement on both off peak and super off peak that they're not valid on peak trains.

2. The printed B5 timetable (download via https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/train-times), and the official timetable published by the TransWIlts CRP ( https://www.transwilts.org/images/11874-TransWilts-TransWilts-2019-Timetable-DL-Leaflet_LR.pdf ) both suggest a London (Paddington) departure at 19:00 to connect at Chippenham with the 20:23 from there to Melksham as being the last train 'home' at night.  That is an off peak fare - £74.60 return if you want up on any train except the 07:20 or 07:49. The journey planner, however, offers you the 19:12 off Paddington on Mondays to Thursdays, change at Swindon, at a fare of £56.00

3. A new poster has appeared at Melksham (same poster at Trowbridge) talking of penalty fare rules from 1st April 2019.
"You will need to your ticket before you board to avoid being issued with a Penalty Fare" and "If ticket selling facilities are not available where you board, you will be given the opportunity to purchase a ticket on board".  The machine at Melksham does not take cash, does not sell groupsaves nor rangers or rovers, does not offer excesses.  It does not accept Rail Warrants or Rail Travel Vouchers.  And as you've seen from above, information at the machine is sometimes far from clear as to exactly what ticket applies to you.   

As stated, these rules say that you'll no longer be able to travel from Melksham and pay in cash for your journey as from the start of next month.  That's the biggest concern element here - a number of our users are young or don't have "plastic" or mobile phones with credit for other reasons, and for cash payment to be withdrawn in favour of penalising them seems harsh; I suspect in practise the train manager would sell a ticket for cash, or a groupsave ... but the vulnerable feel threatened.  Happy for those who are trying to beat the system to be penaltied, but not for the system to "milk" those who've had no choice.

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OK - the above looks a bit negative.  How about some suggestions for GWR ;)

1. Switch the Melksham machine to offering Anytime (£177) and Super Off Peak (£56) London tickets on the front menu. Add definitions of what "Off Peak" and "Super Off Peak" actually mean in place of the current duplicated and generalised text. This will save many un-savvy passengers paying £18.60 more than they need.

2. Update (correct) the printed B5 timetable, the TransWilts printed timetable, and the online .pdf versions of both (and any other publications!) to show the 19:12 train. As the incorrect information has been provided by GWR and TransWilts for several months, it might be a good and positive idea to do a promotion - "later train back - lower fare".  This will allow un-savvy passenger who didn't know about the 19:12 to save money - very often £18.60

3. Update the penalty fare notice to read "If ticket selling facilities to sell you the ticket you need using the payment method you'll be using, or if it's unclear which is the right ticket for you from the ticket machine, please ask a member of staff on board who will give you the opportunity to purchase your ticket".  Inform staff of the change and ensure that the (very few) who get shirty when selling a ticket not available via the TVM with the payment method available are reminded not to be shirty!   This will re-assure vulnerable passenger and help ensure they're not put off using the train.

THis is NOT a GWR problem, it's a national problem that can only be solved by a rewrite of the TVM software across the UK - so a Rail Delivery Group (ex-ATOC) problem. And the cost is in 7 figures, as this may require an upgrade to the hardware in the TVMs for a much larger software program.

Franky, talking personally, the whole program needs rewriting, requiring the pasenger not only to select their arrival station, but also selecting outward & return train times so to allow the program to dispay the cheapest fare for that selection - and also an option for 'flexible' on both outward & return times if you don't want to choose a particular service, or don't know.

Doing that, plus a calendar to select forward dates would allow Advances to also be sold by interogation of that database to chjeck availability. If one is going for a rewrite, it may as well be the full bells & whistles!

But until the fares review is complete, there would be no point in starting this project!

So, in the meantime, get suggestions into this review to encourage this project....

btw -

is ann incorrect understanding of


If the TVM doesn't take cash, and that uis the method by which you want to pay (and have the cash on your person to do so), then the facilities to buy are *not* available, thus you would be given the opportunity to buy onboard.

I take it that's in answer to my point no. 1.   I am aware of the "two time zones only" issue that the rail industry has - is it really impossible to sell the super off peak ticket from the front screen at all times that the off peak is currently sold without spending seven figure sum?  Just swapping two tickets around! Bearing in mind there is not a single service from Melksham to London on which the off peak is valid but the super off peak is not!

Point No. 2 - GWR's printed B5 timetable error ... showing 19:00 (Off Peak) rather than 19:12 (Super Off Peak) - does not relate to TVM / not sure how it's anyone's problem other than GWR's. I have considerable sympathy with TransWilts who I suspect took their data from GWR in good faith and didn't check it.

Point No.3 - Wouldn't it be so much better to use clear an unambiguous wording.  It says "ticket selling facilities" on the notice as it stands and not "facilities to sell the ticket you want using your chosen method of payment".  Don't see that as being an RDG / ATOC problem to change the wording either!

I do agree it would be a good idea to have a major update of the software, and that be after we know how the fare system will be structured for a few years. Care needs to be taken to ensure the process isn't slowed right down for the people who just want to grab a quick local ticket from the moist common menu ...

Every station's time for super-off-peak will be different unfortunately - and the software is common to all TVMs of that type - so yes, a national issue, rather than a TVM by TVM issue. And no, there is no current way of just updating one TVM - they all are done at the same time.

It's sufficient of a major upgrade that 'they' wouldn't simply address the one issue you have identified, but address them all in one go.

And dependent on the fares review. If major changes come from that, it may be a driver to update the TVM software underwritten by the DfT.

Re your points 2 & 3....I didn't address those. Is your local draft timetable being proof read by Transwilts? Rob on the Hill might be able to sort that if they aren't....

OK - I'll tell people that it would cost a million quid to swap two tickets around!


On point 2, I'm not sure about the draft these days / whether or not a copy goes to Transwilts to check it. Whatever happens, the 19:12 super off peak departure from London is missing from GWR's printed B5 and .pdf timetable (as well as the TransWilts one).

Odd about not addressing point 3 - I thought this was your answer  ;)

They could show the sOP fare at OP time, but then people would use the SOP fares too early. It really is part of the fares review - maybe the recommendation will be for simply 'peak' and 'off-peak', with possibly 'Advance' fares available online as know. That would sort your problem at a stroke.

How?   The 07:49 is "Anytime" and the next train at 10:02 is Super Off Peak ... there are no off peak trains.  And that gap is slated to get even longer come the December 2019 timetable.

I have made my suggestion here very, very carefully to avoid replacing one problem by another, and to avoid coming up with a fix that has a limited shelf life.  I would love to have the 'problem' of another train in between.

sorry, add "....at other stations", so it should have read "They could show the sOP fare at OP time, but then people would use the SOP fares too early at other stations" - as the change would have to be universal, across all TVMs.

At a station with only one or two TVMs I am not sure that would be welcomed.   I can see a queue of commuters building while someone goes through the various screens picking days and trains to travel on.

Hmmm, I can see your point, Bob. Yup, keep 'em online!

Officially there are currently, since the last National Rail simplification, only 3 ticket designations - Anytime, Off Peak and Advance.  Super Off Peak is a subset of Off Peak, not a designation in its own right. 

This is why you have a programmable peak and off peak time (but only 1 flat off peak time say 09.30 when ALL off peak tickets will show or be allowed through a gateline).

This IS a GWR issue. They are the retailer. They are the party that contracts with the customer. They are the ones responsible for overcharging.

If you buy any other product or service in any other retailer/customer transaction, and it's faulty, not as described, not provided with reasonable care or skill, or you are overcharged, then the party that has to remedy the problem is the one you gave your money too. There is no contractual relationship between the customer and the maker/programmer of the ticket machine.

Whether or not it's a '7 figure' cost for the industry to rectify is neither here nor there. GWR should not be ovecharging.

Until the problem is fixed they, and other TOCs, should be forced to sell the cheaper Super Off Peak tickets only, allowing them to be valid at Off Peak times. You'd be amazed how quickly the problem would be fixed if TOCs were forced to do that.

Alternatively, a Consumer Act court case or three may focus minds.

No it wouldn't....as they have no legal need to retail all tickets via TVM, itvwouod simply redult in that SOP fare being removed. It might also mean that the Penalty Fare regime be removed too. But GWR can't solve the problem *on their own*

The National Rail website has a link to an interesting Code of Practice:

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/RetailInformationForRailTicketsCoP.PDF (http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/static/documents/content/RetailInformationForRailTicketsCoP.PDF)


CPR=Consumer Protection Regulations

Indeed. They are already being customer unfriendly, so removing from sale the cheaper fare would be true to form. Just the sort of contemptuous action to be expected.

The notice quoted by Grahame does *not* qualify "facilities available" with "by a payment means available to you"; nor do the National Rail Conditions of Travel:-

Do you know something I don't?

I've heard so little about this review just lately I thought it had died a death. Is it still going on?

Edited to add that I've just found the appropriate thread. Apologies - I've been away for 8 weeks in South Africa and just got back this morning :)

Neither does it say anything bout stations *without* Permit to Travel amchines (which are generally being removed/not maintained anyway) - So it's not conclusive. THe National Conditions *do*.

The software in the ticket vending machine at Melksham has been updated.   New look and feel ... new selection of menus ... so looks like someone has spent that 7 figure sum ...

While waiting between trains at Melksham yesterday, I pressed a few buttons to see how the London fares worked - sad to see that the "quick return" ticket to London on offer was  still priced at £74.60 - that's an off peak return;   travelling up on Saturday and back later than day, or back on Sunday, or back on Monday (because it's a bank holiday), the best fare available is £56.00 super off peak and I would have hoped that was the quick ticket to be offered.  The next return trains from yesterday (Saturday) that would require the extra spend of £18.60 are the 09:45 or 16:30 on Tuesday ... an unlikely choice for the majority of passengers heading for London on Saturday!

OK - so can I persuade the machine to sell me the £56.00 ticket?   Yes - by going through five extra menus / questions and answers.   Select the London Return, then select the "change ticket" ... it said 'off peak' against it anyway, so there was a need to know that the super-offpeak existed. Still no clue from the machine at that point that you may be able to buy a lower price product for your trip.  Extra menus asked if you wanted a day or period return ... but greyed out "day" since there are no day return available for Melksham to London ...

Finally got there ... a £56.00 London return .... and after a couple of seconds a box came up telling me to pay, pointing towards the various card devices ... and obscuring (overlaying) the price, so if I hadn't read it quickly enough I still wasn't sure what I would be paying.   My companion did point out that the amount of £56 was showing on the credit card pad, across from the main screen beyond the note reader, the coin slot, and two separate contactless readers.

It told me to pay by card as coins and notes are "temporarily unavailable" too.  Very interested in this - does it mean that there are plans to start accepting cash at this machine?  ;D

Overall, a very underwhelming upgrade.  Still advertising an overpriced specialist product on the front panel, with a need to know (and be confident in) what you are doing to save £18.60.  Still, I suspect, within the railway's rules and franchise in what they are doing, as it's only staffed ticket offices where they're obliged to offer you the best price ticket, and indeed they could argue that it's available through the machine ...

Still nothing that I saw in any of the menus to tell me which trains off peak and super off peak prices applied to - just identical words on each that they are not valid on some trains at peak times on Mondays to Fridays.



As a constructive suggestion - http://www.mrug.org.uk/londonfares.html provides a table of the various Melksham to London walk up fares.   When the user selects "London" at the TVM, why not offer something like this?

Can you not select a specific station & then see all the fares (single & return), rather than selecting a specific journey? I thought you could - but haven't played with a GWR TVM for a little while now.

I doubt any major rewrite will now take place until (well) after the Williams review & decisions taken thereon.

One will be a contactless payment reader, the other is to load tickets onto your new GWR Touch smartcard,  not that it tells you that either!

I went down to Melksham Station yesterday to get an answer on this.  Surprisingly busy so quick notes only from memory of a few button presses.

Ignoring the "Quick ticket to London Paddington" on the top menu, I selected the "A to Z of stations" option. Not sure if it said OTHER stations - suspect not (good!) but light was too bright / surface too reflective to take a photo .

Entered P-A-D-D and found my choice limited to Paddock Wood  ;D ;D. Started again L-O-N-D ... and option got quickly narrowed enough for me to select "London Paddington" ... A further screen or two as I recall - (single v return?).  Then ...

Yes - a whole screen of fares offered.  "Via Swindon" and "Any Permitted" columns.  Still no explanation of "off peak" v "super off peak".

Agreed that GWR and other TOCs / RDG unlikely to invest big money in further fixing software in such TVMs with Williams pending, and if they were ready, willing and able to make the experience better and cheaper in cases like this, I'm sure they would have done so by now.

The OP asked other forum members to share their experiences.

My local station, Blackwater, is in a Penalty Fares area and is served by two TVMs. Although only served by GWR, many tickets from Blackwater are priced by SWR, probably because it used to be a member of the now-defunct Farnborough Stations Group.

Now here's the thing, SWT (as was) decided to bump their off peak revenue for journeys heading away from London by introducing time-restricted Super Off Peak tickets. These were priced the same as the old Off Peak tickets, while the new Off Peak tickets "benefited" from a c.20% price increase.

The slight problem is, the TVMs at Blackwater never display these country-bound Super Off Peak tickets and I've been caught out at least twice, to GWR and SWR's benefit. Also the TVMs will not offer point to point fares from Blackwater to many stations in Greater London at all, necessitating a purchase on the train (which the guards are happy to do).

Another unhappy glitch (?) which looks like it boosts TOC revenue ... after the morning peak when it switches the London ticket from "Anytime" to "Offpeak", the from panel on the Melksham TVM still offers an anytime day return to Trowbridge and not the 20p cheaper off-peak day return which is valid any train after 08:59.

I'm fully aware of other comments in this thread which tell me the TVMs are fare more limited than we would like - with just two fare sets they can switch between.   And I'm aware of quotes of astronomic sums to update the machines.    But even considering those issues, why on earth are they promoting any time day returns when there are no more trains that day that require such tickets rather than the cheaper off peak day returns which (as far as I'm aware) offer exactly the same service from 9 a.m.

Ever heard the saying "Careful what you wish for" ... in many ways, delighted at some of the very significant changes to the menus, disappointed (but just a worry as yet).

Front screen - "touch me to use me" - Fine

Second screen:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/tvm_202001_01.jpg)

A little dramatic to headline that it won't take cash.  But at least it's said.   I assisted an overseas visitor yesterday looking for a ticket to Bristol.  Questioned by me "just one way" and "the centre of Bristol - main station". Excellent English (her first language I'm 100% sure) but unfamiliar with UK rail travel / tickets.   She had trouble from the screen above "where now?" ... "what is ITSO?" ... the found the A to Z for stations:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/tvm_202001_02.jpg)

Starting ... B-R-I and there's an offer on the right hand side.  Stations offered for completion so you don't have to type the complete name are consistent in being offered, but don't seem prioritised to the most likely options. I had to help pick out "Bristol Temple Meads" as being the main station.   And on we went ... £11.50 fare, Anytime single, which is the best "Melksham to Bristol Temple Meads ticket".

Interesting decision for me to make in an instant - whether to point out that an off peak single from Melksham to Clifton Down would have cost only £10.40, and been valid on the next train with the passenger getting off short at Temple Meads.

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My own ticket ... day return to Westbury.  Common local requirement?  No short cut screen any more so "station A to Z".  W-E-S-T and the list of suggestions are all sorts of places like West Allerton (where's that?) and had to carry on to W-E-S-T-B before Westbury was offered. I appreciate space is limited, but there are far more journeys from Melksham to Westbury than West Allerton, West Dulwich or West Byfleet.

Single or return?  And I choose "return". Just one ticket offered - Anytime Day Return at £4.90.  Odd that, as I thought there was an off peak ticket.  Then I noticed - it was 08:56 and the off peak ticket is only valid on trains tied to leave after 08:59.

Walked away, came back 5 minutes later, and the machine offered to sell me a ticket at £4.10 (to which I added my senior card and purchased).

Melksham to Westbury ... 06:36, 09:09, ... no trains between.   No service at all (to anywhere) between 07:52 and 09:09.  So why is it selling me peak tickets only over an hour after the last peak train has left?

I started, intended to start a new thread "careful what you wish".   I am delighted that the front screen / off peak (not super off peak) London ticket that had people spending £18.60 more than they had to on a regular basis has gone.  Disappointed at the slowing down of the use of the TVM with so many extra key stokes needed.  Disappointed at the machine only offering peak fares (*) even when the last peak trains has left and the first off peak service arrives in a few minutes. 

(*) - I have noted a button - "Tickets for future travel" and it may have been possible for me to get the off peak day return through there, so my use of "only" may prove to be simplistic.

Would it be helpful for the off peak ticket to be shown but greyed out or with a big red X through it explaining why you can't buy it and when you can?

Nothing to do with the thread, but Graham asked the question.

West Allerton is in Liverpool, not far fromthe airport and also not far from where Speke Junction MPD used to be in steam days

Yes and no - that would make it better, but that's comparative - still not good that you can't buy the best-value ticket for the next train until a few minutes before it arrives.   

The extra keystrokes required for many sales seemed to be increasing transaction times - what's been gained from contactless payment has been lost to having to spell out W-E-S-T-B ... (or P-A-D-D, be offered only "Paddock Wood" and go back to L-O-N.. to get a suggestion of London Paddington!)

GUI (Graphic User Interface) Design - which is something I have taught an introduction to - does suggest a consistency of menus with options greyed out is preferable to menus that change and have options disappear off them depending on data conditions.  All tickets shown at all times ... those valid on the next departure shown in bold, others with a "next valid on train at xx:xx" note and perhaps greyed out. 

I do appreciate the issue of making the system flexible yet easy to follow and not bogged down in obscure products; sadly, it's already allowed to get into potential destinations from Melksham which are obscure to the extent of hiding the local places.  There are a lot of "West"s ... won't list them all, but if it were to be my design:
a) West-s with direct service (first)
b) Other West-s served by same TOC (second)
c) Other West-s sorted either on distance or on passenger numbers
Westbury //  Weston-super-mare.  Weston Milton. West Drayton. West Ealing. West Worthing // then others ... as a scouser, sure, I might even go to West Allerton sometime, but really it's not a first or even second tier flow!