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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: grahame on April 03, 2019, 16:53:32



Title: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: grahame on April 03, 2019, 16:53:32
I went along to the Town Council's planning meeting last week to support TransWilts' application for additional car parking and conversion of the utility building into the "Melksham Hub" and delighted that that had unanimous support as a planning application.

One member of the public present, however, was very concerned at plans described to increase passenger train numbers (in coming years?) from 9 to 13 each way per day, citing the noise from the train horns as disturbing her and her children's sleeping pattern since they moved there. I suspect that the "culprit" is the passenger foot crossing some 400 metres behind her home, about 1 km north of Melksham Station on - it has to be admitted - a not overused path (especially after dark, I suspect)

Looking up on Wikipedia, I find there are High and Low horns and they can be soft or loud:
Quote
H/L; Loud; General warning to individuals on or about railway tracks.
H; Loud; Emergency warning to individuals who are on the track or workers who fail to acknowledge a train's presence (Sounded Repeatedly.).
L; Loud; Used at Whistle boards (Between 0700 and 2300).
L; Soft; Warning signal when operating in depots or on sidings.
H; Loud; Used for special/local signal.
H; Loud; Wrong-direction movements, against normal railway traffic flow (Sounded at frequent intervals.).

A note on the page suggests that 07:00 to 23:00 may now be 06:00 to 00:00.

I rather suspect something akin to a storm in a teacup here ... but just sharing this interesting research.  As I understand it (having been involved in some of the earlier work to help work out the extra 4 trains each way) only one round trip would be sleepy-times anyway.  I rather suspect it's the freights - which run 24 hours rather than with a daytime concentration - that are so disturbing anyway.

We also had concerns from the residents of Beanacre when the train service was about to go up from 2 to each way per day in December 2013.  But they have a trunk A road passing right in front of their houses, and the railway is a field's width away - haven't heard from them since and I suspect the issue was more as to what might be than what transpired.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: bobm on April 03, 2019, 17:29:37
I remember the good residents of Wokingham getting riled when SWT brought in the Class 458 trains.

Being a modern train compared to the old slam door stock the horns were noticeably louder.   After some work the noise was reduced and made more directional but still did the job.

However you can't run a railway without the ability of a train to warn of its approach and perhaps even outside "permitted hours" in case of an emergency.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Celestial on April 03, 2019, 17:38:53
I wonder how long before we have a grieving family complaining that if a horn had been sounded then their loved one would still be with them.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: SandTEngineer on April 03, 2019, 17:47:30
I would like to take these people out onto the track and let the trains come without any form of warning.  Trains these days are very quiet and you don't hear them coming.

Anyway, I thought research showed that if the human brain is subjected to repeated sounds that it starts to filter them out and not let you hear the sound anymore.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Reading General on April 03, 2019, 20:33:57
What a nation of individuals. The railway should move not me.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: broadgage on April 03, 2019, 20:43:07
I would like to take these people out onto the track and let the trains come without any form of warning.  Trains these days are very quiet and you don't hear them coming.

Anyway, I thought research showed that if the human brain is subjected to repeated sounds that it starts to filter them out and not let you hear the sound anymore.

I thought that trains were so loud that "children are thrown from their beds" by the noise and vibration :)


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: RA on April 03, 2019, 21:10:49
Following relaxation of the rule book in response to noise pollution complaints, the current rule book requirement is for the horn to be sounded at a whistle board between the hours of 06:00 and 23:59. The hours were extended about a year ago (previously 07:00 to 23:00) as it was found a significant number of crossings were being used outside of these times. The current requirement is for only one tone (low) to be sounded. ASLEF have recently recommended that their members use both tones at whistle boards and are actively lobbying the relevant authorities to reinstate this rule. Two tones is audibly and unequivocally a train. One tone could be any vehicle, road or rail, and is not easily identifiable as one or the other.

A crossing user using a crossing protected only with a whistle board has to make a decision on whether it is safe to cross or not. The fact that a whistle board is provided means that the sighting time of an oncoming train is insufficient for the slowest users to be able to cross safely on sighting an approaching train. The audibility and identification of a warning as an approaching train is critical in using such crossings safely.

Replacement of crossings with alternatives  is the desired solution. Cost is the limiting factor. The expense of upgrading crossings with telephones or red and green lights is considerable. The cost of completely eradicating a crossing with a footbridge or underpass even more so. Closing rights of way and severing footpaths by just closing the crossing with no alternatives is not acceptable with crossing users.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 03, 2019, 22:03:06
Horns might not be effective for deaf or hard of hearing crossing users. Red and green lights not for the visually impaired or colour blind. A combination of the two should reach almost everybody.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: grahame on April 03, 2019, 22:46:49
Expressing purely my own view.   Hmmmm ... I do feel that if someone moves, of their own choice, into a location where there's noise (we did that under the flight path of Luton Airport), smell (our house between the pig farm and the jam factory) or pitch blackness (the last house in the last village before Salisbury Plain) already existing or planned, they should expect and take any actions to modify their home. So - double glazing, sound / wind break hedge ...

But yet ... I cannot really imagine anyone using certain public footpaths in the hours of pitch blackness and just like there's a (very) few stations that are "daytime only" I wonder if that could be arranged for footpaths.

There are four foot crossings that I know of between Thingley Junction and Bradford Junction. The one mentioned here is the closest to a residential area.  One other has more limited residential not far from it; the other two are in a business area, and in the countryside.   I could guess at numbers using them and the numbers are all very low - cost would be thousands of pounds per person crossing on three of them if significant work were to be done.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 03, 2019, 22:49:39
Without any barriers to lock, how would a crossing time limit be enforceable?


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: grahame on April 03, 2019, 22:59:35
Without any barriers to lock, how would a crossing time limit be enforceable?

Goodness only knows ... I admit.   But then there are other rules (fewer in recent years) where enforcement comes largely from people simply following the rules.   Sign. "This crossing is open from 06:30 to 20:30 only. Outside those hours, members of the public on the crossing will be regarded as trespassing on the railway, and will be subject to a fine of up to £1000"


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: broadgage on April 03, 2019, 23:14:49
Without any barriers to lock, how would a crossing time limit be enforceable?

It could not be enforced in practice, but the idea still has some merit IMHO. Advertise the permitted hours of use and anyone crossing outside of those hours does so at their own risk, and as above might be prosecuted for trespass.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 03, 2019, 23:42:14
I'm not sure of the legal status of a crossing. Is it part of the road or (in this case) footpath or is it legally part of the railway? Or both? I suspect probably both, but I don't know. Anyway, the legal costs of passing such a traffic order (or whatever the legal mechanism is) might be significant. More to the point, while it might cover the railway legally, if someone was killed on a crossing outside permitted hours the legal point would hardly console relatives and friends, nor I should think the train driver.

I'm not sure this is a practical answer to train horn disturbance at whistle boards, but then I'm not sure what is. Perhaps double glazing? I suspect that in practice a lot of people just get used to it, as suggested earlier.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: broadgage on April 04, 2019, 08:01:13
Perhaps the rules on sounding the train horn for crossings could be relaxed if the crossings were equipped with visual warnings.
The presently used miniature red and green lights are not ideal for those with colour blindness. Several alternatives come to mind.
Firstly, what about a horizontal line of red lights for stop, and a vertical line of green lights for go ? (A bit like tramway signals, but with coloured lights)
Or alternatively a steady green light for go, and a flashing red light for stop ?
Both would be discernible by the colour blind, but still retain the traditional red-green colours.
Or red for stop and bluish green for go, as used for traffic lights in Japan. Almost all colour blind people can see these colours.

Any of the above are readily achieved with LED lighting.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: CyclingSid on April 04, 2019, 08:28:48
I seem to remember some years ago there were similar complaints about Sonning Cutting.

On the wider complaints issue, I can remember when Greenham Common was an active airfield, people moving in and then complaining about the aircraft noise??

I had the reverse problem this morning cycling to work, having been cut up by a car I happen to look over my shoulder to find an ambulance on my tail with blues on but no horns. Usually they sound the horns if there is anybody within sight.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Reading General on April 04, 2019, 09:35:02
There is an ongoing issue I believe with the residents of Cardiff Road next to Reading TMD where the Victorian terrace houses are right up against the rail line and the depot. Network rail have installed high soundproofing fences and pointed out that there will be less noise when most trains will be swapped for electric but I think it's still a problem. You can probably guarantee that some of those complaining use the railway each day to travel somewhere for work. Personally, when I lived up against West station a couple of years back, the sound of trains was largely unnoticeable, it was the prostitution, drug dealers, addicts and associated rows and violence that kept me up! I would have loved to have swapped for a place in Cardiff Road, and you could have taken down the fence. Quite simply if you live near a railway or in the middle of a large, busy town, expect some noise.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Noggin on April 04, 2019, 14:59:49
There is an ongoing issue I believe with the residents of Cardiff Road next to Reading TMD where the Victorian terrace houses are right up against the rail line and the depot. Network rail have installed high soundproofing fences and pointed out that there will be less noise when most trains will be swapped for electric but I think it's still a problem. You can probably guarantee that some of those complaining use the railway each day to travel somewhere for work. Personally, when I lived up against West station a couple of years back, the sound of trains was largely unnoticeable, it was the prostitution, drug dealers, addicts and associated rows and violence that kept me up! I would have loved to have swapped for a place in Cardiff Road, and you could have taken down the fence. Quite simply if you live near a railway or in the middle of a large, busy town, expect some noise.

I used to live round the corner on Swansea Road and to be honest, planes and road traffic were far more noticeable, with the station announcer being quite clear if the wind was blowing from that direction. The 125's Valenta's were quite loud pulling out of Reading, but to be honest they weren't that noticeable.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: eightf48544 on April 04, 2019, 15:10:50
Isn't there a famous Denning ruling that went something like? If you moved somewhere there was nuisance hard luck, if a nuisance moved into the area you had a case. So as most rail lines have been  round for 100 plus years hard luck.

Whereas the new Reading Depot might give Cardiff Rd residents a case.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: broadgage on April 04, 2019, 15:19:08
Isn't there a famous Denning ruling that went something like? If you moved somewhere there was nuisance hard luck, if a nuisance moved into the area you had a case. So as most rail lines have been  round for 100 plus years hard luck.

Whereas the new Reading Depot might give Cardiff Rd residents a case.

A good lawyer might of course argue than an EXTRA train on an existing railway was "a new nuisance"


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: welshman on April 04, 2019, 15:56:49
Unfortunately, it is not an automatic defence to a claim in nuisance to show that the claimant acquired or moved into his/her property after the nuisance had started. However it may be a defence, at least in some circumstances, that it is only because the claimant has changed the use of his/her land that the defendant’s pre-existing activity is claimed to have become a nuisance. 

See the Supreme Court decision in Coventry v Lawrence (https://www.supremecourt.uk/decided-cases/docs/UKSC_2012_0076_Judgment.pdf) in 2012 - para 47 and onwards if you're keen.  The section is headed "Coming to the nuisance".

The Denning reference is a reference to his "coming to the nuisance" judgement in Miller v Jackson - a cricket ground case.  He was in the minority on that one - his two fellow Court of Appeal judges came to the opposite view.



Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Reading General on April 04, 2019, 19:04:38


I used to live round the corner on Swansea Road and to be honest, planes and road traffic were far more noticeable, with the station announcer being quite clear if the wind was blowing from that direction. The 125's Valenta's were quite loud pulling out of Reading, but to be honest they weren't that noticeable.

The station announcements were also clearly heard up at Emmer Green too when I lived there, normally when waiting for the 5.30 bus to town in the morning.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 04, 2019, 19:12:00
"Agent of change" it's known as but I'm not sure it applies to nuisance claims, only to planning permissions.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Incider on April 08, 2019, 21:54:14
Most of the trains using the Melksham branch won’t have high/low loud and high/low soft horns, just two tones of one volume.  It’s not until you get above 105mph you need the higher decibels, hence the four position horn lever on a HST and the automatic loud/soft on IEP.  The 150’s, 153’s, 158’s etc will only have the one level.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: grahame on April 09, 2019, 02:33:12
Most of the trains using the Melksham branch won’t have high/low loud and high/low soft horns, just two tones of one volume.  It’s not until you get above 105mph you need the higher decibels, hence the four position horn lever on a HST and the automatic loud/soft on IEP.  The 150’s, 153’s, 158’s etc will only have the one level.

That's interesting - and explains why I haven't been able to actually hear any difference between loud and soft - because there is none.   Mind, I have never stood and listened to horns nd questioned them before.

Guess that 165,166 are also just the one level with a top speed of 90 m.p.h.?


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 09, 2019, 09:33:36
I'm a couple of hundred metres from the Severn Beach line and sometimes, but only on certain days, I hear trains hooting. They seem to be hooting somewhere near the Arches (where the line crosses the A38 between Redland and Montpellier). I guess the variability from day to day is down to wind direction (the predominant wind would carry sound away from us) but why are they hooting at all?There is a signal there but that doesn't seem like a reason. (I'd just like to add it's not a disturbance at all and I've never heard anyone nearby mention it – it's nowhere near as loud as the sirens and as for the police helicopter which comes over from time to time... )


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 09, 2019, 13:00:10
I'm a couple of hundred metres from the Severn Beach line and sometimes, but only on certain days, I hear trains hooting. They seem to be hooting somewhere near the Arches (where the line crosses the A38 between Redland and Montpellier). I guess the variability from day to day is down to wind direction (the predominant wind would carry sound away from us) but why are they hooting at all?There is a signal there but that doesn't seem like a reason. (I'd just like to add it's not a disturbance at all and I've never heard anyone nearby mention it – it's nowhere near as loud as the sirens and as for the police helicopter which comes over from time to time... )

I've heard that too... I imagined it was train drivers giving a cheery hoot to the various eco-minded folk who use operational railway land between Redland and Clifton Down as allotments...


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 09, 2019, 15:48:23
It always sounds to me like it's between Redland and Montpellier, but you might be right. "Toot," you're making good progress with the weeding. "Toot toot," I'll be round for my asparagus later. etc.

Coincidentally, I did hear a train hoot about five minutes after my post this morning.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Incider on April 10, 2019, 17:57:55
Most of the trains using the Melksham branch won’t have high/low loud and high/low soft horns, just two tones of one volume.  It’s not until you get above 105mph you need the higher decibels, hence the four position horn lever on a HST and the automatic loud/soft on IEP.  The 150’s, 153’s, 158’s etc will only have the one level.

That's interesting - and explains why I haven't been able to actually hear any difference between loud and soft - because there is none.   Mind, I have never stood and listened to horns nd questioned them before.

Guess that 165,166 are also just the one level with a top speed of 90 m.p.h.?

Yes.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Lee on April 15, 2019, 09:26:48
I wonder how long before we have a grieving family complaining that if a horn had been sounded then their loved one would still be with them.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/14/silent-night-trains-killed-daughter-mother-claims-sues-network/

Quote from: The Telegraph
A mother is claiming that "silent" night trains killed her daughter and is suing Network Rail over her child's tragic death.

Straight-A student Milena Gagic, 16, died instantly when she was hit by the night train at the level crossing in Hipperholme, Halifax, in December 2014.

She and her best friend, Amelia Hustwick, had gone to the crossing late at night to chat because it was “a nice place to hang out”, Central London County Court heard.

The pair were sitting between the actual train tracks, “laughing and giggling” because they were convinced trains did not run at night.

Both girls had also grown up in the local area and believed that, if any train did in fact approach, it would sound its horn.

But since 2007, a “night time quiet period” had been ushered in, barring horns between 11pm and 7am, said barrister Stephen Glyn.

Her mum, Leanne Gagic, is now suing Network Rail Infrastructure Ltd for £22,124 in damages, although her barrister explained that her case is “not about money”.

She says Network Rail breached its duty of care in failing to properly warn people that night trains no longer sounded their horns at Hipperholme, where villagers hear the sounds of train whistles over 100 times a day.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Celestial on April 15, 2019, 11:18:43
Oh goodness me! That was rather sooner than I had anticipated.

If ever there was an example of why everyone should treat railway tracks with the utmost respect then this is it. I'll leave my comments there rather than open up a discussion as to the circumstances of the fatality.

 


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: broadgage on April 15, 2019, 11:24:59
Crossing a railway without taking proper care is clearly unwise, most people get away with it, but some don't.
SITTING DOWN on a railway line is worse than unwise.
Strong contenders for a Darwin award.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 15, 2019, 13:02:28
I'm a bit confused by the references to the Night Time Quiet Period (NTQP) as from my recollection train horns have not been sounded at level crossings between 11pm and 7am for many years before the 2007 date quoted?  It was around 2007 when instructions just to sound the lower tone were introduced at 'Whistle' boards, rather than the higher tone as well - with the odd exception at certain crossings.  In the last few years the NTQP has been reduced to be enforced from midnight-6am.

A sobering reminder that even when passenger trains have stopped running you should never assume a train isn't going to come, no matter where you are.  And sitting down on the tracks is, as Broadgage said, worse than unwise.


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Celestial on April 15, 2019, 13:53:51
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/FAQs-for-Website-NTQP.pdf

In response to this, and in recognition of the intrusive nature of modern train horns, the operational rules of the railway were changed in 2007 to incorporate a quiet period during which horns are only used in emergency circumstances.  This period, originally running between the hours of 23:00 – 07:00 every day, is known as the Night Time Quiet Period (NTQP). 


So apparently it was indeed 2007.
 


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 15, 2019, 13:58:55
My memory is obviously failing me.  ;)


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: Incider on April 15, 2019, 21:25:54


A sobering reminder that even when passenger trains have stopped running you should never assume a train isn't going to come, no matter where you are.  And sitting down on the tracks is, as Broadgage said, worse than unwise.

Indeed, ECS moves, freight, OTM, RHTT, test trains and so on, you can never assume there won’t be something coming, straight A’s but no common sense.

(ECS - empty coaching stock, OTM - On-track machines, RHTT - rail head treatment train)


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 15:49:53
Just as I thought this thread had run its course ... I spotted a post somewhere completely different but in the UK and on a main line ... where the crossing is fitted with horns and as the train passes over a track circuit on the approach, that horn sounds.   The article was not dated 1st April either!

It struck me that an audible warning at the crossing could be much tighter in where it's heard than one on a train 800m (or so) away - the noise does not need to carry ...

Anyone else heard of this?   How feasible is it for more general application?


Title: Re: Train Horns causing disturbance
Post by: stuving on April 20, 2019, 16:00:05
Just as I thought this thread had run its course ... I spotted a post somewhere completely different but in the UK and on a main line ... where the crossing is fitted with horns and as the train passes over a track circuit on the approach, that horn sounds.   The article was not dated 1st April either!

It struck me that an audible warning at the crossing could be much tighter in where it's heard than one on a train 800m (or so) away - the noise does not need to carry ...

Anyone else heard of this?   How feasible is it for more general application?

E2S warning signs (http://www.e2s.com/case-studies/network-rail-appello-alarm-horn-sounders) evidently believe in it (well they would, of course):
Quote
Improving Safety with Network Rail

The tragic accidents and casualties related to pedestrians and vehicles ignoring train level crossing warnings have been well documented in the UK press. Responding to this Network Rail identified that a significant percentage of all safety incidents at level crossings occur when a second train is approaching. In the past, there was no particular method to advise or alert anyone nearby that another train was coming and why the barriers were not opening immediately after the first train had passed.

E2S Warning Signals, working with engineers at Network Rail, designed and developed a solution using an alarm horn sounder from the Appello range for use on automatic level crossing sites.

Customised Voice Recording Technology from E2S

E2S were pioneers in the use of digitally stored voice recording technology. The Appello range offers unparalleled reproduction clarity and output, combining user recordable content with a choice of alarm tones and automatic synchronisation on multiple unit installations. 
Existing level crossing audible signalling devices only provided an alarm tone warning as the first train approached the crossing.  The system provided by E2S added a voice message to the alarm tone to alert anyone present at the crossing of the imminent arrival of a train.

    Alarm tone followed by “Warning, more than one train may be approaching. Warning, more than one train may be approaching”

    Listen to the warning here.


Crucially, the multi stage capability of the Appello unit allowed a second voice message and alarm tone to be activated should it be necessary to wait for a second train to pass through before it becomes safe for members of the public to use the crossing.

    Alarm tone followed by “Warning, another train is approaching. Warning, another train is approaching.”

    Listen to the warning here.

Different alarm tones and message content was trialled before arriving at the most concise and effective wording. E2S were also happy to create the voice recordings for Network Rail.

A challenging aspect of the project related to the potential impact the new audible warnings would have on residents of property near to level crossings. The distance at which the Appello unit could be heard increased dramatically at night so custom electronics were designed by E2S to enable the Appello unit to have a remotely selectable day and night time function that reduced the sound level output automatically. During installation the Network Rail engineers are able to set the day and night time volume levels that are appropriate for that site.

To provide the control interface, E2S also designed and manufacture custom voltage regulator modules that are mounted in the track side cabinet.

Network Rail believes that the notification of additional trains approaching the crossing will significantly improve overall crossing safety.

The Network Rail acceptance certificate number is PA05/04380.



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