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Sideshoots - associated subjects => The Lighter Side => Topic started by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 05:33:24 pm



Title: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 05:33:24 pm
A picture quiz without pictures! Guess I should say "one answer each" until the end of Easter. You are welcome to post up how many you think you know.

I have edited in the answers so far - early on 21st April. It makes for a confusing post, so I will repeat the remaining questions on the end of the thread. -  {{link here}} (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=21451.msg263336#msg263336). Further update - just 2 questions remain - {{here}} (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=21451.msg263382#msg263382).

1. A former GWR line - these days, you can still catch a train between stations in three sections. One section open as a standard gauge heritage line, one section open as a narrow gauge tourist line, and a third section still part of the main network.
A - Ruabon-Barmouth: (Llangollen Railway (standard gauge), Bala Lake Railway (narrow gauge), Barmouth Jct (Morfa Mawddach)-Barmouth (NR)) - Red Squirrel

2. The only stretch of railway constructed as a 'light railway' by a pre-grouping company that remains part of the main passenger carrying main railway network to this day
A - Bere Alston and Calstock Light Railway, Opened 1908 - bradshaw

3. Terminus station opened on 30th August 1906, which had though services to and from Paddington for many years.
A - Fishguard Harbour - eightonedee

4. The first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets. On what route? In what year were they fitted?

5. Station opened on 19th January 1998 and closed on 22nd June 1998.  Where?  Why?
A - Heathrow Junction Railway Station - bignosemac
A - (a.k.a. Goa) - Temporary Station due to tunnel build problem for Heathrow - Electric train

6. The shortest walking distance between two GWR managed stations
A - St.Budeaux stations, Victoria Road and Ferry Road - old original

7. What is (or was) unique about 150 261?
A - Only 150/2 named while with Great Western - Western Pathfinder

8. Summer 1952 departures at 06:25, 07:25, 08:25, 09:00, 10:30, 12:20, 13:12, 14:20, 15:13 (Saturday only), 17:00, 17:35, 19:05, 21:00, 22:05 and 23:10 (Wednesdays and Saturdays only). 11:05, 17:25, 19:15, 20:20, 21:34 and 22:33 on Sundays.   From where?

9. Ordinary single fare, London to Melksham, in 1952.
A - 21/- (First Class) - Stuving

10.  What might Network Rail have closed permanently, and at short notice after 170 years of use, just a week ago? Does anyone know the current status?
A - Angerstein Foot Crossing - Richard Fairhurst
A - Angerstein Wharf crossing has had, according to local press, a temporary reprieve. - bignosemac


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: bradshaw on April 20, 2019, 05:44:26 pm
2 Bere Alston and Calstock Light Railway under its Act of 1902, adopting East Cornwall Mineral Railway and using its gauge. 1905 gauge authorised to be standard. Opened 1908


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 05:48:10 pm
2 Bere Alston and Calstock Light Railway under its Act of 1902, adopting East Cornwall Mineral Railway and using its gauge. 1905 gauge authorised to be standard. Opened 1908

Correct - with an anything but "light" viaduct across the Tamar!


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: old original on April 20, 2019, 05:58:10 pm
6) I'll take a punt at the St.Budeaux stations, Victoria Road and Ferry Road


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: eightonedee on April 20, 2019, 06:00:19 pm
3 - Fishguard harbour


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 06:08:03 pm
6) I'll take a punt at the St.Budeaux stations, Victoria Road and Ferry Road

They're the ones I had in mind, yes

3 - Fishguard harbour

Correct!


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 20, 2019, 06:58:18 pm
10 - Angerstein Foot Crossing.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: bignosemac on April 20, 2019, 07:02:39 pm
5. Heathrow Junction Railway Station.

A temporary Heathrow Express/Connect terminus at the Heathrow perimeter, with shuttle buses for all terminals. This temporary station was built after there were partial collapses of the new tunnels under the airport. The collapses also suspended the Piccadilly Line service, so this temporary terminus was the only rail access while the tunnels were repaired.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: bignosemac on April 20, 2019, 07:03:51 pm
10 - Angerstein Foot Crossing.

Not though, as oft quoted, the only foot crossing in Greater London.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 07:07:43 pm
10 - Angerstein Foot Crossing.

Not though, as oft quoted, the only foot crossing in Greater London.

Indeed - though they are pretty rare.  Think I've seen reference to one other??

Did the closure announced for last weekend as temporary, then as permanent actually happen .... and which of those two is it thought to be?   The latest references I have seen as I read through are unclear, and the legal basis aid to be why closure is allowed look very ropey indeed to me.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: bignosemac on April 20, 2019, 07:12:35 pm
Not though, as oft quoted, the only foot crossing in Greater London.
Indeed - though they are pretty rare.  Think I've seen reference to one other??

At least four others...


Angerstein Wharf crossing has had, according to local press, a temporary reprieve. https://charltonchampion.co.uk/2019/04/11/threatened-angerstein-wharf-foot-crossing-gets-temporary-reprieve/


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Celestial on April 20, 2019, 07:48:59 pm
4.  I'll guess Class 317 on the BedPan line.  The service was delayed for a year as the unions didn't want OMO (as it was then), so they started running in 83, though had been built between 81 and 82.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 07:53:56 pm
4.  I'll guess Class 317 on the BedPan line.  The service was delayed for a year as the unions didn't want OMO (as it was then), so they started running in 83, though had been built between 81 and 82.

I had to scroll back to find which question that was  :D ... sorry, they weren't the first according to my source, which I will quote later.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Electric train on April 20, 2019, 07:59:15 pm
5. Goa station on the Heathrow branch, the project named it Goa because the railway service to Heathrow was a goer, service was run with 165/6.  The reason for the temporary station was due to the collapse of the spray concrete tunnel in the CTA 


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: bignosemac on April 20, 2019, 08:27:11 pm
5. Goa station on the Heathrow branch, the project named it Goa because the railway service to Heathrow was a goer, service was run with 165/6.  The reason for the temporary station was due to the collapse of the spray concrete tunnel in the CTA 

Err... reply #7. ;)


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: ellendune on April 20, 2019, 10:04:05 pm
Guess I should say "one answer each" until the end of Easter.

How do you define that? 
[pedant mode=on]
Liturgically speaking the Easter season lasts 7 weeks for Easter Sunday to Pentecost.  Do you really mean that?
[/pedant mode=off]


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 10:14:58 pm
Guess I should say "one answer each" until the end of Easter.

How do you define that? 
[pedant mode=on]
Liturgically speaking the Easter season lasts 7 weeks for Easter Sunday to Pentecost.  Do you really mean that?
[/pedant mode=off]


No.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 20, 2019, 10:17:36 pm
I write up what's been answered in the morning ... still just one each please ... until the end of Easter Monday which is what I intended.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 05:46:26 am
Remaining questions that are awaiting correct answers:

Update - just 2 questions remain - {{here}} (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=21451.msg263382#msg263382).  Correct answers added in to post at top of thread.

1. A former GWR line - these days, you can still catch a train between stations in three sections. One section open as a standard gauge heritage line, one section open as a narrow gauge tourist line, and a third section still part of the main network.

4. The first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets. On what route? In what year were they fitted?

7. What is (or was) unique about 150 261?

8. Summer 1952 departures at 06:25, 07:25, 08:25, 09:00, 10:30, 12:20, 13:12, 14:20, 15:13 (Saturday only), 17:00, 17:35, 19:05, 21:00, 22:05 and 23:10 (Wednesdays and Saturdays only). 11:05, 17:25, 19:15, 20:20, 21:34 and 22:33 on Sundays.   From where?

9. Ordinary single fare, London to Melksham, in 1952.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Western Pathfinder on April 21, 2019, 07:42:12 am
No7. Was that the unit known as Casper ?.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 08:00:45 am
No7. Was that the unit known as Casper ?.

Nope ... I would need reminding of Casper's number but (s)he was a 153.

[added]

153305 - now bringing joy to the costal towns of New Holland, Barton-on-Humber, Grimsby and Cleethorpes.



Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Western Pathfinder on April 21, 2019, 08:05:11 am
I've got another idea but that will have to wait until Monday.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 08:16:27 am
I've got another idea but that will have to wait until Monday.

To clarify - "one answer each" should really read "one correct answer" each ... members who have come up with an incorrect guess can keep trying (within reason - oh help that is hard to define).


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: ellendune on April 21, 2019, 08:16:49 am
1. Not sure it quite fits, but how about the Manchester and Milford Haven line.  At the southern end it is the route into Carmarthen(1) Station. Further north is the Standard Gauge Gwilli (2) Railway. At the Northernmost end the rout into Aberystwyth (3) Station has been taken over by the Vale of Rheidol (4) railway.  On the Newcastle Emlyn (5) branch there is also a narrow gauge line.  

(1) Why does spell check want to make that Earthenware?
(2) Why does spell check want to make that Willing?
(3) Why does spell check want to make that Abernathy?
(4) Why does spell check want to make that Idolater?
(5) Why does spell check want to make that Seemly?



Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Western Pathfinder on April 21, 2019, 08:21:28 am
I've got another idea but that will have to wait until Monday.

To clarify - "one answer each" should really read "one correct answer" each ... members who have come up with an incorrect guess can keep trying (within reason - oh help that is hard to define).

150261 might have been the last single car unit on the Transwilts .


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 08:27:15 am
1. Not sure it quite fits, but how about the Manchester and Milford Haven line.  At the southern end it is the route into Carmarthen(1) Station. Further north is the Standard Gauge Gwilli (2) Railway. At the Northernmost end the rout into Aberystwyth (3) Station has been taken over by the Vale of Rheidol (4) railway.  On the Newcastle Emlyn (5) branch there is also a narrow gauge line.  

(1) Why does spell check want to make that Earthenware?
(2) Why does spell check want to make that Willing?
(3) Why does spell check want to make that Abernathy?
(4) Why does spell check want to make that Idolater?
(5) Why does spell check want to make that Seemly?



That is very much stretched from the question.   I had something that fits much more cleanly on what used to be a through line from "A" to "B".   Anyone looking for a hint though - the line did not runs from a place/station with a name starting with the letter "A" ...


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 08:28:19 am
150261 might have been the last single car unit on the Transwilts .

Still a 150/2 ... 2 car unit.   Sorry.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Electric train on April 21, 2019, 08:43:29 am
5. Goa station on the Heathrow branch, the project named it Goa because the railway service to Heathrow was a goer, service was run with 165/6.  The reason for the temporary station was due to the collapse of the spray concrete tunnel in the CTA 

Err... reply #7. ;)

The heady days of being a Commissioning Engineer on the HEX scheme sitting in meetings when the Goa concept was first muted  ;D


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Western Pathfinder on April 21, 2019, 09:37:23 am
Ok then and having re read the question the unit in question used to be named The Tarka Line 150261.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 10:01:17 am
Ok then and having re read the question the unit in question used to be named The Tarka Line 150261.

Yes, and clearly unique in having that name  ;D ;D .  Just imagine the confusion if there were multiple trains all with the same name - such a "Thomas" - how confusing that would be ...

It's the only 150/2 unit that has been named on FGW / GWR as far as I know - that's the "unique".


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: stuving on April 21, 2019, 10:51:07 am
Since I don't have your source for no. 9, I shall have to guess. One guinea sounds about right - third class, naturally.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 10:58:24 am
Since I don't have your source for no. 9, I shall have to guess. One guinea sounds about right - third class, naturally.

That would have been a perfect answer for first class!


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 21, 2019, 11:15:08 am
1. Ruabon-Barmouth: (Llangollen Railway (preserved standard gauge), Bala Lake Railway (preserved narrow gauge), Barmouth Jct (Morfa Mawddach)-Barmouth (NR)


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 11:43:04 am
1. Ruabon-Barmouth: (Llangollen Railway (preserved standard gauge), Bala Lake Railway (preserved narrow gauge), Barmouth Jct (Morfa Mawddach)-Barmouth (NR)

Correct.   

I am ... tempted ... to raise the question of "preserved" v "heritage" v "tourist"; I chose in the question to use "heritage" for the Llangollen railway and "tourist" for the Bala Lake. To my mind, a "preserved railway" is one with the tracks in situ from the days prior to it becoming a heritage or tourist attraction, though I suppose there are preserved elements in place on the Llangollen railway at some stations and in the rolling stock, and even on the Bala Lake at Llanuwchllyn's station buildings.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 11:57:14 am
Just 2 questions remaining ...

4. The first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets. On what route? In what year were they fitted?

8. Summer 1952 departures at 06:25, 07:25, 08:25, 09:00, 10:30, 12:20, 13:12, 14:20, 15:13 (Saturday only), 17:00, 17:35, 19:05, 21:00, 22:05 and 23:10 (Wednesdays and Saturdays only). 11:05, 17:25, 19:15, 20:20, 21:34 and 22:33 on Sundays.   From where?

And an incorrect guess at no. 4 has suggested that the answer is prior to 1983, and is not the appropriately named BED-PAN line with class 317 - suggestion by celestial.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 21, 2019, 12:13:06 pm
 

I am ... tempted ... to raise the question of "preserved" v "heritage" v "tourist"; I chose in the question to use "heritage" for the Llangollen railway and "tourist" for the Bala Lake. To my mind, a "preserved railway" is one with the tracks in situ from the days prior to it becoming a heritage or tourist attraction, though I suppose there are preserved elements in place on the Llangollen railway at some stations and in the rolling stock, and even on the Bala Lake at Llanuwchllyn's station buildings.

It's a nice point. There's no original track on the Llangollen Railway, but even on railways where the track stayed in situ after closure they are now needing to replace it - generally with non-prototypical FB rail on concrete sleepers. The GWSR was initially relaid in part using 'correct' GWR throughbolt sleepers, but the railway's policy is now to replace these with top-screwed Southern-style ones (where they still use wood) as these are easier to maintain, and for similar reasons the Toddington to Broadway section is CWR, again for ease of maintenance. The upshot this is that there is no such thing as a 'preserved' railway; heritage railways, are at, best conserved.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: stuving on April 21, 2019, 12:38:41 pm
Since I don't have your source for no. 9, I shall have to guess. One guinea sounds about right - third class, naturally.

That would have been a perfect answer for first class!

Are you sure that's 1st class?  I mean, it wasn't just a wild guess!


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 21, 2019, 12:46:45 pm
4. The first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets. On what route? In what year were they fitted?

I've found an answer for this but will let someone else in first as I've answered one already!

But "Misery" might be a clue...


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 21, 2019, 12:54:21 pm
Since I don't have your source for no. 9, I shall have to guess. One guinea sounds about right - third class, naturally.

That would have been a perfect answer for first class!

Are you sure that's 1st class?  I mean, it wasn't just a wild guess!

Yeah - I know it was a wild guess.  I was amazed - I really expected a long series of "higher" and "lower" hints would be needed!

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/1952_tt_4.jpg)


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: stuving on April 21, 2019, 01:14:53 pm
That is rather odd. It ended up as a more informed guess than I expected, using Ordinary Single fares from Paddington in Timetable World (http://timetableworld.com/timetable_catalog.php)'s two Western Region timetables of around that date:

May 1949 Melksham 1st: 32/7 3rd 19/6 (Trowbridge is the same)

May 1965 Trowbridge 2nd: 24/-  (for some reason Melksham isn't listed...)

I was surprised to find those fares so close to each other that interpolation could be done with some confidence ... but even more surprised to find that confidence vitiated by fares being so much lower in 1952!


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Oxonhutch on April 22, 2019, 08:04:14 am
Interesting that the first class fare is 1.5 * 3rd (standard) class fare consistently across the table.  Compare that today from Reading to Paddington where the respective fares are £44.90 and £25.10 nearly a ratio of 1.8, and three years ago - before the first class price freeze* - it was in excess of 2!

*very quietly introduced such that even the ticket staff didn't know.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: stuving on April 22, 2019, 10:09:56 am
Interesting that the first class fare is 1.5 * 3rd (standard) class fare consistently across the table.  Compare that today from Reading to Paddington where the respective fares are £44.90 and £25.10 nearly a ratio of 1.8, and three years ago - before the first class price freeze* - it was in excess of 2!

*very quietly introduced such that even the ticket staff didn't know.

If you look at other timetables on Timetable World, you will see that in 1949 on WR the mark-up for first was above 50% in most cases, and even at that date subject the kind of mysterious variations that we see now. For example, Penzance 102/11 and 61/10 (66% mark-up, and I've not tried hard to find the biggest).

You will also observe that peculiarly British notion - that a return ticket ought not to cost much more than a single - was already current, so a monthly return to Penzance was 123/9 and 82/6. Here the mark-up for 1st is regularly 50%, so the cost of the return trip in 1st almost the same as in 3rd! (20/10 vs 20/8).

This scheme is explained in words in the 1950 SR timetable, below the list of 1st and 3rd single fares:

"Monthly return tickets...
  THIRD CLASS - at approximately single fare and one third for return journey.
  FIRST CLASS - 50 percent over third class
Ordinary return tickets at double the ordinary single fares are available ... outward and return halves are valid for three months."

And in 1965 the WR fares list, now solely of 2nd class, has at its head:

"Ordinary returns are issued generally at double the single fare.
FIRST CLASS tickets are approximately 50 percent above second class."

I have read somewhere that, after the war, fares were put up by 40%; mainly to reduce demand to what the railways could cope with in their run-down state. I could believe that 1st fares went up a bit more then, and the 50% mark-up had been normal before that (at least for some companies) and was reintroduced later on. You might also guess that the sharp drop (reversing much more than 40%) of 1949-52 was the removal of that "austerity" surcharge, though how that relates to  the change of government in 1951 is unclear.




Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 23, 2019, 03:46:25 am
"Open Season" ... the remaining questions are now available to anyone, including those who have already provided a correct answer.   From reading a comment, I suspect one member will common with a correct answer to No. 4 on his next visit to the forum.   Not even a hint at no. 8 yet, but then I don't know of any members who live in that place.

Just 2 questions remaining ...

4. The first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets. On what route? In what year were they fitted?

8. Summer 1952 departures at 06:25, 07:25, 08:25, 09:00, 10:30, 12:20, 13:12, 14:20, 15:13 (Saturday only), 17:00, 17:35, 19:05, 21:00, 22:05 and 23:10 (Wednesdays and Saturdays only). 11:05, 17:25, 19:15, 20:20, 21:34 and 22:33 on Sundays.   From where?

And an incorrect guess at no. 4 has suggested that the answer is prior to 1983, and is not the appropriately named BED-PAN line with class 317 - suggestion by celestial.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: jamestheredengine on April 23, 2019, 08:05:21 am
4. Class 159 on Waterloo-Exeter in 1993?


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 23, 2019, 08:55:28 am
No 4 - I think! - is the Southend Corridor Express, on the London Tilbury & Southend ("Misery") Line. Introduced circa 1910. http://citytransport.info/Compartment.htm


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 23, 2019, 09:10:28 am
No 4 - I think! - is the Southend Corridor Express, on the London Tilbury & Southend ("Misery") Line. Introduced circa 1910. http://citytransport.info/Compartment.htm

Yes - I agree.  I found a reference to that too - The Londonist (https://londonist.com/london/transport/london-underground-to-southend-it-was-once-possible)

Quote
From 1910 to 1939, the District line operated a seasonal excursion train to the Essex resort town of Southend.

The trains ran on the usual route through east London to Upminster, before carrying on to Leigh-on-Sea, then Southend Central and Shoeburyness. It was possible to take one train all the way from Ealing Broadway to the mouth of the River Thames.

Services ran up to three times a day. As a curious footnote, these were the first trains in the country to be fitted with retention toilets.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 27, 2019, 06:57:43 pm
8. Summer 1952 departures at 06:25, 07:25, 08:25, 09:00, 10:30, 12:20, 13:12, 14:20, 15:13 (Saturday only), 17:00, 17:35, 19:05, 21:00, 22:05 and 23:10 (Wednesdays and Saturdays only). 11:05, 17:25, 19:15, 20:20, 21:34 and 22:33 on Sundays.   From where?

Just that one remaining. Calne't imagine why no-one has even tried a guess.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: rogerw on April 27, 2019, 07:03:13 pm
Calne by any chance?


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on April 27, 2019, 07:06:55 pm
Calne by any chance?

Yes - you just needed a hint to guess.   A service the plummeted rapidly in the early 1960s from good to total closure.   Had it survived, MetroWest would - surely - be carrying on from Bath via Corsham and Chippenham to Stanley Bridge (if it had survived), Black Dog, and Calne.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: SandTEngineer on April 27, 2019, 10:06:46 pm
Calne by any chance?

Yes - you just needed a hint to guess.   A service the plummeted rapidly in the early 1960s from good to total closure.   Had it survived, MetroWest would - surely - be carrying on from Bath via Corsham and Chippenham to Stanley Bridge (if it had survived), Black Dog, and Calne.

Perhaps it would of been nicknamed 'The Sausage Express' ;D


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on May 27, 2021, 11:11:02 am
Angerstein Wharf crossing has had, according to local press, a temporary reprieve. https://charltonchampion.co.uk/2019/04/11/threatened-angerstein-wharf-foot-crossing-gets-temporary-reprieve/

From Network Rail (https://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/news/highest-risk-level-crossing-in-south-east-london-to-be-closed-with-alternative-route-enhanced)

Quote
The highest risk level crossing in South East London is set to be closed after a series of safety incidents.

An alternative route for people using Angerstein footpath level crossing, in Charlton, is identified in plans announced by Network Rail today.

The crossing is used by nearly 700 people a day,  and recent near misses include a person carrying a baby, walking along the line to the next station, children playing on the track and assorted trespass incidents which have required train drivers to apply their emergency brakes.

[snip]

Network Rail is now proposing an alternative route which would divert those wishing to cross the line along a 240-metre diversion or an approximately 4-minute walk, via Farmdale Road and Fairthorn Road. The alternative walking route is step-free, so will not exclude members of the public who are currently unable to access the footpath crossing.

I find myself reading the final half of the final sentence and wonder if that could be said without a double negative.   "The alternative route is step free and so will be available to those who cannot access the current crossing". Are they looking for a positive spin onto the story for people who use the crossing daily. 4 minutes (each way on a round trip, 5 days a week) adds up to over 30 hours a year.  700 transits a day (350 return trips?) suggests that each year, taking the diversion will take a year of people's time.   


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Oxonhutch on May 27, 2021, 05:46:08 pm
IIRC, the railway is on an embankment. NR need to dig a pedestrian underpass at street level. Can't cost much more than some of the over bridges they construct.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: stuving on May 27, 2021, 06:22:04 pm
It's more complicated than that - you really need to visit to appreciate that (Google Earth: 51.485619°  0.019752°). One side has a steep stair down to an access road behind a terrace of houses, so building a ramp there would be tricky. On the other side the road is level with the railway, and the footpath descends by ramp from the bridge over the A102.

I'm surprised they didn't make more of the importance of providing equal accessibility for all.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: onthecushions on May 28, 2021, 08:48:58 pm


I find myself reading the final half of the final sentence and wonder if that could be said without a double negative.   "The alternative route is step free and so will be available to those who cannot access the current crossing". Are they looking for a positive spin onto the story for people who use the crossing daily. 4 minutes (each way on a round trip, 5 days a week) adds up to over 30 hours a year.  700 transits a day (350 return trips?) suggests that each year, taking the diversion will take a year of people's time. 
  

If a human life averages 80 years and the probability of a crossing death is less than 1:80 then is it better statistics to keep the crossing as it would result in fewer lost life-days?

OTC


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on May 29, 2021, 03:50:37 pm
I have been puzzling at the number of foot passenger transits - 700 a day on this crossing - and looked it up on a map and now I understand.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/wplc.jpg)

There a big area of high density housing (looks quite new) at Fairthorn Road.   Traveling there from Central London, people will take the train to Westcombe Park which is a very short distance to the east.  They'll then (at present) cross the Blackwall Tunnel Approach Road on a significant footbridge and the freight railway on that level crossing - a few minutes walk from the station.  I can understand why people don't want to walk all around and how frustrating it will/would be if their crossing of the railway is closed, especially as it would render the footbridge over the tunnel road much less useful.   Closing the crossing looks like taking out one part of a significant walking route.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: jamestheredengine on May 30, 2021, 11:38:06 am
I'm actually surprised they're not considering the opposite option: close the goods branch. The value of that aggregates terminal site as residential land would be very high. There's also plenty of rail-connected space downstream on the Isle of Grain to transfer aggregates from boats to trains.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: grahame on June 25, 2021, 11:06:50 pm
The local MP has got involved - suggesting that Network Rail actually publish their work showing that it's their "most dangerous crossing in Kent".

From This is local London (https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/19399149.mp-wants-answers-charltons-angerstein-crossing-closure/) ... long article but I was struck by
Quote
Back in May, Fiona Taylor, Network Rail’s Route Director for Kent, said: “We have announced today our intention to close Angerstein level crossing near Charlton due to the safety risk it poses to users, passengers and our rail colleagues.

I would love to know what the "safety risk to passengers" is on a freight branch.  Me thinks Ms Taylor both protest too much!


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: stuving on June 26, 2021, 12:19:30 am
The local MP has got involved - suggesting that Network Rail actually publish their work showing that it's their "most dangerous crossing in Kent".

From This is local London (https://www.thisislocallondon.co.uk/news/19399149.mp-wants-answers-charltons-angerstein-crossing-closure/) ... long article but I was struck by
Quote
Back in May, Fiona Taylor, Network Rail’s Route Director for Kent, said: “We have announced today our intention to close Angerstein level crossing near Charlton due to the safety risk it poses to users, passengers and our rail colleagues.

I would love to know what the "safety risk to passengers" is on a freight branch.  Me thinks Ms Taylor both protest too much!

Angerstein crossing is listed as a "Private Footpath Crossing with Whistleboards", oddly, and the trains as "Passenger & Freight", which is even odder. Line speed is 15 mph. Protection is by:

* Signage
* Gates or stiles
* Whistle boards provided on the rail approaches - train horn audible warning given (06:00 to 23:59)

The latest ALCRM score is D3 - 4th highest of 13 for individual risk to users on the crossing, 3rd highest of 13 for collective risk to them and to the railway side. Key risk drivers are:
* Infrequent Trains                            (8 counted)
* Large Numbers of Users                (675 counted)
* Deliberate Misuse or User Error

So as you can see, infrequent trains are seen as a a risk factor. In the text it refers to people "climbing under or over stationary trains at the crossing", and if that's true you wonder why trains stopping on the crossing isn't listed as a risk driver too. 

As to whether any other crossings on the Kent route are rated as high for risk, it's hard to say as the NR route isn't given in the spreadsheet. But for London and the south-east in general, most the crossings at D3 or higher are road crossings - I suspect NR's statement on this may have referred only to foot crossings, as closing a busy road crossing is very much harder for them to do!


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Lee on July 06, 2021, 11:34:46 pm
Do not adjust your sets/monitors/smartphones/tablets - Here comes a Network Rail apology! :

From the Charlton Champion: (https://charltonchampion.co.uk/2021/07/06/angerstein-wharf-crossing-network-rail-sorry-after-wrongly-claiming-footpath-was-most-dangerous/)

Quote from: Charlton Champion
Angerstein Wharf crossing: Network Rail sorry after wrongly claiming footpath was most dangerous

Charlton Champion exclusive: Network Rail has apologised after wrongly claiming that the Angerstein Wharf railway crossing, which it wants to close, was the most dangerous in its Kent region.

The Charlton Champion revealed in May that the state-owned track company has revived plans to close the footpath over the freight branch line, which links streets in Charlton with a footbridge to Westcombe Park station.

At the time, it claimed that the crossing over the single-track line was “currently registered as the most dangerous of nearly 350 level crossings which we operate in Kent”.

However, after The Charlton Champion asked for the data that its statement was based on, Network Rail has withdrawn the claim – admitting that it is actually the 34th most dangerous crossing in the region.

There are also seven more dangerous foot crossings in the Kent region, it admitted.

Network Rail said that it was, in fact, “the highest risk footpath in south-east London” – however, there are no other foot crossings like it in south-east London. The track company did not respond to a request for clarification.

“Angerstein Footpath Crossing is ranked 8th out of the 162 footpath crossings in Kent and 34th out of 341 crossings in Kent. It is the highest risk footpath in South East London, not in Kent – the statement was a miscommunication on our press release and we apologise for any confusion caused,” Network Rail said in response to a request made under freedom of information laws.

A Network Rail press release – which was not sent to us at the time – calls the path “the most dangerous level crossing in south east London”. However, there is only one other level crossing on a Network Rail line in south east London, a mile away at Charlton Lane.

“Charlton Lane is ranked 43rd out of 341 for level crossing risk in Kent; however Charlton Lane is a fully protected, full barrier manned crossing which is one of the highest levels of protection for a level crossing,” it said.

The Charlton Champion has also obtained a spreadsheet of incidents at the crossing since January 2018.

While Network Rail claimed there had been “many incidents where drivers of trains had to apply their emergency brakes to avoid people on the track”, only one such incident had been recorded – on 28 November 2019, when a driver reported someone crossing as the train approached. Almost a year earlier, a driver told control room staff that someone had crossed after being told not to, but there was no report of brakes being applied.

A broken gate was one of the 13 incidents recorded at the crossing

In total, thirteen incidents were recorded, including seven trespass incidents with people seen on the line; one woman apparently carrying a baby in her arms and trying to access Westcombe Park station, another where youths were seen throwing rocks at cars on Bugbsy’s Way.

Others had little to do with its use as a crossing: a track worker was cut by a syringe inserted into a handrail in March 2019, the following month vandalism to a fence was reported, while in February 2020 it was reported that a recently-installed safety gate had come off its hinge.

The final incident was a “concern for welfare” when a driver saw “two teenage boys hanging around the foot crossing” – one which may raise eyebrows for any residents who grew up in the area and may have done the same themselves.

Network Rail did not respond to a request for further comment.

The crossing, originally built for farm workers in the 1850s, has grown in importance in recent years with the development of new housing on the old Thorn Lighting site between Victoria Way and Fairthorn Road. The newer Bowen Drive development off Victoria Way, which welcomed its first residents last year, offers a direct link to Gurdon Road and the crossing.

Two weeks ago Greenwich & Woolwich MP Matt Pennycook asked Network Rail for detailed evidence to back up its assertions that the footpath, which is one of just a handful of crossings, is unsafe.

The letter came after the track company held a consultation meeting with local residents, which Pennycook said had been followed by “uniformly negative feedback”.

In February 2018, Network Rail closed a footpath across the railway at Stone Crossing, east of Dartford and replaced it with a new footbridge. However, at the Angerstein crossing, it is expecting the 675 daily passengers to reroute via Woolwich Road to reach Westcombe Park.


Title: Re: Easter Quiz
Post by: Lee on September 16, 2021, 08:03:17 am
Do not adjust your sets/monitors/smartphones/tablets - Here comes a Network Rail U-Turn! :

From the Charlton Champion: (https://charltonchampion.co.uk/2021/09/15/network-rail-scraps-plans-to-close-angerstein-wharf-foot-crossing/)

Quote from: Charlton Champion
Plans to close Angerstein Wharf foot crossing have been cancelled by Network Rail, people who live close to the branch line will be told at a meeting this evening.

The historic crossing over a single-track freight line, one of the last of its kind left in London, connects residents in and near Fairthorn Road, Charlton, with Farmdale Road in east Greenwich and a footbridge over the A102 to Westcombe Park station.

Network Rail had initially planned to close the crossing in 2019 as part of a resignalling programme. But it faced a wave of opposition from local residents and Matt Pennycook, the local MP, and the track company backed away and announced a review of the proposal.

About 675 people use the crossing each day, and they would have been expected to reroute via Woolwich Road had the crossing been closed.

When the proposal was revived in May, Network Rail claimed that the crossing was the most dangerous in its Kent region. However, The Charlton Champion revealed two months later that this claim was false – and there were actually 33 other crossings that were more dangerous.

Network Rail amended its claim to state that the crossing was the most dangerous in south-east London – however, there are no other crossings like it in south-east London.

News that the closure has been cancelled emerged in an email from Matt Pennycook to those involved in the campaign to save the crossing.

“It would appear that, as a result of the collective pressure we exerted, an independent review was commissioned by Network Rail which concluded that there are sufficient grounds in this case to disapply the national algorithm that the organisation uses to determine safety risk at individual crossings,” Pennycook said.

“As such, Network Rail are content to treat Angerstein as an exception to their general policy vis-à-vis such crossing closures.”

The crossing, originally built for farm workers in the 1850s, has grown in importance in recent years with the development of new housing on the old Thorn Lighting site between Victoria Way and Fairthorn Road. The newer Bowen Drive development off Victoria Way, which welcomed its first residents last year, offers a direct link to Gurdon Road and the crossing.

Network Rail has been contacted for comment. It is due to hold a meeting with neighbours this evening to discuss the findings of its review.

What a great pity that a similar level of common sense did not prevail at that most vivid of Network Rail credibility-destroyers - the Pilning Footbridge.



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