Great Western Coffee Shop

https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/great-western-railway-bring-back-the-buffet

See also Celestial's previous post and resulting conversation here. (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=18792.msg263261#msg263261)

Already signed.
Already emailed GWR helpline (!)
Already emailed our local MP

I heard the incredible figure of catering sales fall since iet was introduced! Not because people don’t buy from the trolley, but the trolley can’t get through a crowded train, or lack of staff means only half a 2 x 5 has a trolley

I've been on plenty of IET services on which a trolley would have no problem getting through, on which I'm reasonably sure that a trolley went through, but I have no really recollection, because the contents of the trolley hold little appeal.

To be honest I'm fairly price insensitive, but if I want anything, it's a proper cup of coffee and a bun, or a good sandwich, neither of which the trolley (or even a buffet for that matter) can sell me. So I'll go to Caffe Nero or Pret before I get on the train, and only buy from the trolley in extremis - I suspect that's the same for most other travelers, with for most, price being an even greater determining factor.

Leaving aside the >3 hour services where it would be nice to have a decent hot meal with tablecloths and cutlery. In my ideal world there would be the equivalent of a continental kiosk, with a decent coffee machine, from which (depending on my inclination), I can get a decent cup of coffee, a beer, a glass of wine, a G&T, a toastie, a sandwich, a croissant, a chocolate bar etc.

But:
1) I'm not entirely sure that there are enough people with tastes like mine to keep it busy
2) The economics almost certainly don't work to provide one per 5-car
3) Lots of people won't get up out of their seats to find it, because they don't want to leave their stuff, worry that they'll lose their seat etc
4) You need to provide an offering that is comparable in quality to Pret, M&S etc.
5) You need skilled, motivated staff to run it, keeping it clean, stocked, avoiding wastage etc. It's a fiddly job.
6) You need to do all that in a way that is profitable
7) A buffet is probably going to take up the equivalent of at least 8 seats, so you've got the loss of revenue from them to cover.

To be honest, I'm just not sure that it's do-able, and that a cart is probably the most pragmatic solution of all, until you get to 3 hour+ journeys, at which time it is sensible to offer something else.

Can anyone save me a bit of Googling by explaining why we have all these 5+5 car formations? Will a lot of them disappear when the December 2019 timetable comes in?

Splitting the trains on the way ... 5+5 from Paddington to Bristol, 5 cars on to Weston-super-mare.  5+5 from Paddington to Plymouth, 5 cars on to Penzance. 5+5 cars to Swansea, 5 cars on to Carmarthen.

I can't find it now - but I am sure I read somewhere there was talk of splitting 5+5s at Oxford for the North Cotswolds - but with nine cars running that plan may have been scrapped.

I suspect it is more like 16 seats, as the space opposite the buffet needs to be clear too. But I don't think it would result in a loss of revenue, just a bit more overcrowding now and again.  Probably wouldn't be noticed on a 9 car set, but agree having 5 car sets is more difficult to justify.  Does LNER have buffets on its 5 car sets?

Are they getting any 5car units?

Not worth doing for the one train a day to Carmarthen, and I wonder whether it is for the few to Weston too. Also, I thought I read that the Weston trains run with one set empty rather than splitting, which would defeat the object of it.

Now what would be useful would be if both the Cardiff trains ran through to Swansea with splitting being used to provide it economically.  I think a few years ago an evening peak GWR service to Swansea was withdrawn so the train could run back to London, and left horrendous overcrowding. That's the sort of time when having two sets would be useful, but I don't think that it is planned to fill that gap unfortunately.

Yes they are.

The splits I quoted were the splits I have heard talked about, but it's not beyond imagination to think of some others.

Cardiff to Swansea doesn't have just the trains from London - there are trains from Manchester every hour and local services to Maesteg and on the "Swan Line" locals. Not sure those latter have done hugely well - Llanshamlet station (which I have used) was darned quiet in my unscientifically small usage sample, and the timetable is rather sparse - but the solution might well be a better local service than more expresses.

I noted that the splits (originally) talked about are all about 10 cars for half the journey and 5 for the rest - I have seen (but I have wondered) about the second 5 going on elsewhere.

Apparently splitting is being done more often now where booked due to the very high fuel rate being charged by Siemens to GWR!

The Swanline stations are a mixed bag. Only Baglan is truly hopeless, sandwiched between two motorways in the community of Baglan Moors (population 0), a classic of the genre of designing things for car commuters without thinking about where the car commuters are coming from (as in their origin, not "the M4"). The mistake was reopening that instead of Landore High Level (which would be right next to the Liberty Stadium). But realistically, however one plays it, four stations with a combined ridership of 131k are not going to be a very good argument for slowing down service to Neath (817k) and Swansea (2.159m).

And really, any additional local service should be at the Cardiff end – Pontyclun has very strong ridership despite absolutely dreadful service (if I were GWR, I'd consider doing a massive ORCATS raid and using SDO to stop some trains there), and Llanharan, Pencoed, and Pyle are all much busier than one would expect from their poor service.


Let's split them at Whitland. Front half to Milford Haven, rear half alternating between Pembroke Dock and Fishguard Harbour. With TfWs trains freed up from so much running west of Swansea, they can focus on providing a decent local service.

If the seats taken out are First Class seats, they can probably be replaced by reducing/eliminating the kitchen at the end.

Yes - see seating plans (https://www.lner.co.uk/globalassets/_page-structure/azuma-content/Azuma-seat-maps).

As well as the buffets, the plans show that LNER have more 1st class seats on both 5 and 9 cars sets than GWR, meaning fewer standard class seats overall.

I agree, if you consider the chicken came first.   But it you think the egg came first ....

I would suggest that the ridership at a station is a combination of the population and (potential) travel habits of its catchment, and the provision of reliable services to and from the right place at the right time and at a decent price.    I will take your work for Baglan having a catchment issue.  Llanshamlet should not have that issue from my observations;  Skewen and Briton Ferry, I don't know.   Should we consider Pyle here too?

From Llanshamlet ... I suspect no service will be frequent enough over the short distance to beat the bus into Swansea.  Into Cardiff, you have trains at 06:45, 09:17 and 11:17 ... with three TfW unit trains in addition to the GWR London expresses whistling through in between.  Stops at any one of about 07:15, 07:45, or 08:45 might just fill the gap ... return trains arriving at 16:07,18:00, 19:06 and 19:57 may not be too far off already.

Take a look at how passenger number have jumped at Manea, Parson Street, Melksham, Dronfield, Pinhoe and Copplestone (just to give a few examples) and see what lessons can be learned in forecasting Llanshamlet.  Which, I note, is a long way from our "bring back the buffet car" title.   Pehaps we should hatch an egg and see if we have a cygnet for a separate thread?

Yes, those are the original default layouts specified for both IEP orders. GWR's ones were built with reduced 1st class (as were the 802s); presumably the order was altered early on (and with no publicity).

Which was also the original spec for the GWR IET fleet before they reduced 1st class accommodation on the entire HST fleet.

With LNER being a long distance operator, the amount of 1st class accommodation needed can be justified by the high number of ticket sales. A similar argument could be made for London to WoE services but would mean less Std seating.

That is indeed correct, after rush hour we often get a 5+5 set, and encouraged to use the front portion only

What a waste of fuel and to keep in the topic of the hour producing carbon emissions to carry five empty carriages around.

Its interesting to see that LNER have also reduced their First Class allocations:

225 set: 127 seats
HST set: 113 seats
Azuma 9-car: 106
Azuma 10-car: 96

Well, that won't have been LNER's doing - nor VTEC's, as the original IEP layouts had 47 per 5 and 103 per 9 (including wheelchairs). Since then an extra companion seat has squeezed into each (the 9-car now has 104; there are two unused numbers in the MEF1).

Hope I'm posting this in the right place and it's not a duplicate.

I've just been sent this link which is being circulated around various whatsApp groups. Thought I'd post it here as it may be of interest to others and a general point of discussion:
https://you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/great-western-railway-bring-back-the-buffet?bucket=&source=whatsapp-share-button

Hi Godfrey, I've merged your post into the already running topic.

Thanks Lee  :)
I can't believe I didn't spot this thread already existed!  :-[