Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => Plymouth and Cornwall => Topic started by: PhilWakely on April 29, 2019, 21:14:45



Title: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: PhilWakely on April 29, 2019, 21:14:45
Travellers to Newquay may be in for a surprise this Summer - particularly during Boardmasters - as they may find that they will be unable to take their surfboards with them as GWR has apparently banned surfboards from IET services.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: MVR S&T on April 29, 2019, 21:42:54
Yet another case of putting customers (who pay their wages) first last.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Timmer on April 30, 2019, 06:06:23
Going to be interesting to see how they plan to police that when people show up with their surfboards who were used to travelling with them on an HST. An issue even Broadgage’s crystal ball failed to see this. There may be trouble ahead.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 30, 2019, 06:14:37
Going to be interesting to see how they plan to police that when people show up with their surfboards who were used to travelling with them on an HST. An issue even Broadgage’s crystal ball failed to see this. There may be trouble ahead.

I suspect that like the "ban" on bicycles on LTV services during the rush hour, it'll simply be ignored/not enforced.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on April 30, 2019, 07:16:47
Searching "surfboard GWR" on Google gave me a link to the GWR passenger's charter dated September 2015 which includes on page 13. Sadly no link to quote as clicking on the link on Google gave me an automatic download.

Quote
Bringing luggage on our trains

Please don’t bring more luggage onto the train than you can carry.

If you have large cases or other large items, you might be able to put them in our guard’s van. But that’s only for our high-speed trains, and we may charge you a fee. You can find out how much in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or by calling our Customer Support team on 03457 000 125.

We always do our best to accommodate all your luggage, including things like surfboards. But if the train is busy, or loading your luggage could cause delays, injury or inconvenience, we won’t be able to take it. We also won’t take unaccompanied luggage or anything that we think might be dangerous.

Searching "surfboard" on GWR's site gave me 7 links - all to pages about "springboard"s and nothing on surfboards at all.  Let's see what the outcome is - if any how deep and official any ban on surfboards turns out to be.





Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: jamestheredengine on April 30, 2019, 07:42:23
Yet another case of putting customers (who pay their wages) first last.

If the surfboard were a fare-paying passenger, that would be a fair point. Maybe if GWR were to sell tickets for surfboards, double basses, bicycles, outsize prams, and dogs it would have more interest in providing a service to such customers.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: ellendune on April 30, 2019, 07:51:43
Yet another case of putting customers (who pay their wages) first last.

If the surfboard were a fare-paying passenger, that would be a fair point. Maybe if GWR were to sell tickets for surfboards, double basses, bicycles, outsize prams, and dogs it would have more interest in providing a service to such customers.

And if they had been selling such tickets it would have shown whether there was a business case to provide luggage space in the IETs to provide the space to carry them.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: PhilWakely on April 30, 2019, 08:00:17
Yet another case of putting customers (who pay their wages) first last.

If the surfboard were a fare-paying passenger, that would be a fair point. Maybe if GWR were to sell tickets for surfboards, double basses, bicycles, outsize prams, and dogs it would have more interest in providing a service to such customers.

I am not sure whether this intended as irony given that GWR DO charge for surfboards and double basses [£5 IIRC]! I have no idea whether/how it is policed.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: stuving on April 30, 2019, 08:33:16
Yet another case of putting customers (who pay their wages) first last.

If the surfboard were a fare-paying passenger, that would be a fair point. Maybe if GWR were to sell tickets for surfboards, double basses, bicycles, outsize prams, and dogs it would have more interest in providing a service to such customers.

I am not sure whether this intended as irony given that GWR DO charge for surfboards and double basses [£5 IIRC]! I have no idea whether/how it is policed.

The national conditions (NRCOT) have a list of "not allowed unless the TOC says so" items in section 23:

Quote
Mobility scooters.
Canoes; surfboards; sailboards.
Skis and ski-boards; golf equipment; other sports equipment except where shown as not
permitted below.
Musical Instruments exceeding these dimensions, 30 x 70 x 90 cm
Unloaded firearms, properly licenced, with prior permission of the Train Company and
carried in accordance with the law and any other specific instructions
(There's also a list of "never on any train" items.)

GWR's current passenger's charter has a section on mobility scooters, and apart from that I can only see this:

Quote
Luggage
We always do our best to accommodate all your luggage. If the train is busy, or
loading your luggage could cause delays, injury or inconvenience, we won’t be
able to take it. We also won’t take unaccompanied luggage or anything that we
think might be dangerous.
Please don’t bring more luggage onto the train than you can carry.
There is more information about taking luggage and other articles with you
on your journey in paragraphs 23, 25 and 26 of the National Rail Conditions of
Travel.
If your property is damaged, we will only give you compensation if the damage
was caused by the fault of our staff.

Surfboards
Surfboards can be carried in the Guards Van on our Night Riviera service. On
local stopping services surfboards are permitted if the train is not busy, or
loading your luggage will not cause delays, injury or inconvenience. We are not
able to carry surfboards on any High Speed Trains or Intercity Express Trains (in
any circumstances).

Now, has that changed? Has anyone got an old copy of the passenger's charter that shows it?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on April 30, 2019, 09:07:25
GWR's current passenger's charter has a section on mobility scooters, and apart from that I can only see this:

Quote
Luggage
We always do our best to accommodate all your luggage. If the train is busy, or
loading your luggage could cause delays, injury or inconvenience, we won’t be
able to take it. We also won’t take unaccompanied luggage or anything that we
think might be dangerous.
Please don’t bring more luggage onto the train than you can carry.
There is more information about taking luggage and other articles with you
on your journey in paragraphs 23, 25 and 26 of the National Rail Conditions of
Travel.
If your property is damaged, we will only give you compensation if the damage
was caused by the fault of our staff.

Surfboards
Surfboards can be carried in the Guards Van on our Night Riviera service. On
local stopping services surfboards are permitted if the train is not busy, or
loading your luggage will not cause delays, injury or inconvenience. We are not
able to carry surfboards on any High Speed Trains or Intercity Express Trains (in
any circumstances).

Now, has that changed? Has anyone got an old copy of the passenger's charter that shows it?


As per my post above, I have a September 2015 charter which states

Quote
Bringing luggage on our trains

Please don’t bring more luggage onto the train than you can carry.

If you have large cases or other large items, you might be able to put them in our guard’s van. But that’s only for our high-speed trains, and we may charge you a fee. You can find out how much in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or by calling our Customer Support team on 03457 000 125.

We always do our best to accommodate all your luggage, including things like surfboards. But if the train is busy, or loading your luggage could cause delays, injury or inconvenience, we won’t be able to take it. We also won’t take unaccompanied luggage or anything that we think might be dangerous.

No link to the original as the darned thing downloads ... but I have put a mirror ((here)) (http://gwr.passenger.chat/gwr_charter_201509.pdf) so you can see the whole thing. Look like the two generations of the passenger charter show a complete switch from "if we can, we will" to "we won't".

2015:
We always do our best to accommodate all your luggage, including things like surfboards.

2019:
We are not able to carry surfboards on any High Speed Trains or Intercity Express Trains (in any circumstances)


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TaplowGreen on April 30, 2019, 09:18:06
Problem is, GWR have "rules" like this too, which are totally  ignored/not enforced and have become meaningless.

Bikes aren’t allowed on services:
arriving at London Paddington between 07:45 and 09:45
leaving from London Paddington between 16:30 and 19:00

-more honoured in the breach than the observance as they say, which has probably been the case with surfboards too.....it's become "custom & practice" I'd suggest that GWR need to publicise this widely to avoid more dreadful PR & conflict in the summer. Either way, it'll just mean more cars on the road.

Let's hope the Famous Five don't have any surfing planned.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: stuving on April 30, 2019, 09:27:22
As per my post above, I have a September 2015 charter which states

Quote
Bringing luggage on our trains

Please don’t bring more luggage onto the train than you can carry.

If you have large cases or other large items, you might be able to put them in our guard’s van. But that’s only for our high-speed trains, and we may charge you a fee. You can find out how much in the National Rail Conditions of Carriage or by calling our Customer Support team on 03457 000 125.

We always do our best to accommodate all your luggage, including things like surfboards. But if the train is busy, or loading your luggage could cause delays, injury or inconvenience, we won’t be able to take it. We also won’t take unaccompanied luggage or anything that we think might be dangerous.

No link to the original as the darned thing downloads ... but I have put a mirror ((here)) (http://gwr.passenger.chat/gwr_charter_201509.pdf) so you can see the whole thing. Look like the two generations of the passenger charter show a complete switch from "if we can, we will" to "we won't".

It's odd that GWR said the fees were in the NRCOC. That used to say much as it does now, including the same two lists of "never" and "only if a TOC says so" items, then in appendix B. The only reference to the amount of a fee I can see (this is 2012, so a little earlier) is:
Quote
6. Luggage that exceeds the limits set out above is carried at the discretion of the Train Company. A charge may be made for this. Each train company is responsible for setting the charges that apply to luggage conveyed in these circumstances; however, it will not exceed half the adult single fare for the journey or part of the journey over which the luggage is being conveyed on that Train Company. Train Companies will provide information about their additional luggage policies via their website and enquiry offices, or on request or from the Ticket Seller before you buy your ticket.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: chuffed on April 30, 2019, 09:58:35
Why don't the surfers just take an 'ironing board'  seat back with them, when they alight at Newquay ?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on April 30, 2019, 10:01:50
-more honoured in the breach than the observance as they say, which has probably been the case with surfboards too.....it's become "custom & practice" I'd suggest that GWR need to publicise this widely to avoid more dreadful PR & conflict in the summer. Either way, it'll just mean more cars on the road.

I was tempted to ask in my earlier post "do GWR actually want the surfer customers for Boardmasters" as banning surfboards for those going to a surfing competition is a pretty good way of turning them off.  But, perhaps, that business is more trouble than it's worth ... and perhaps spectators outnumber competitors 20 to 1 so the number actually denied are not great.

How about https://www.carrymyluggage.com


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Rob on the hill on April 30, 2019, 10:41:28
GWR laid on 13 extra trains for Boardmasters last year. If they are providing extra trains again this year, surely they won't ban surfboards...
https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-centre/news/2018/july/extra-trains-for-boardmasters-festival-but-reservations-must-be-made-to-travel

Quote
Extra trains for Boardmasters Festival but reservations must be made to travel
 Thursday 12th July 2018


Get a ticket, get a seat

Travel in style to the Boardmasters Festival this summer with train operator Great Western Railway set to run 13 additional trains to/from Newquay, however passengers must make a reservation to travel.

With the ever-popular Watergate Bay and Fistral Beach festival attracting more and more visitors each year, train operator GWR will operate a specific train reservation only system ensuring everyone who wants to travel is able to book a service of their choice.

Newquay Station Manager Mike Trotter explains:

“Newquay Station is set to serve more people in a day than it usually does in a week, so we will be operating a reservation only system, with customers only able to board their booked service.

“This will allow those travelling to board the service more easily, and will help us to manage queuing at the station more efficiently.”

Specific train reservations will be required on all services to Newquay on Wednesday 8, Thursday 9, and Friday 10 August and from Newquay on Monday 13 August.

Book now to guarantee your choice of train time.

Those travelling should:
Allow extra time because trains to and from Newquay will be busy
Expect queues
Get to the station at least 30 minutes before your reserved train is due to depart

What can I take?
Only bring what you can carry:
Remember your Railcard:
Worry about losing your ticket? Download the GWR app
Charge your phone:


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: johnneyw on April 30, 2019, 10:56:55
There is also the definition of what constitutes a "surf board". Would I be sent away if I boarded the IET with my now, slightly ancient Boogie Board? Shorter but wider than a surf board, even cunningly disguised in it's carrying bag, would it be seen as hazard/obstruction?
Then there is other question of surf board size which range from about five feet to aircraft carrier. Is there one rule for all?
In the mid 80s it was not too difficult to take surfboards with us on a flight (although in the hold, not the cabin).


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on April 30, 2019, 11:59:20
Yet another case of putting customers (who pay their wages) first last.

If the surfboard were a fare-paying passenger, that would be a fair point. Maybe if GWR were to sell tickets for surfboards, double basses, bicycles, outsize prams, and dogs it would have more interest in providing a service to such customers.

And if they had been selling such tickets it would have shown whether there was a business case to provide luggage space in the IETs to provide the space to carry them.

Be careful what you wish for... there are plenty of GWR lines where farebox revenue doesn't cover costs. If business cases were the be-all and end-all then we'd have a Serpell Report-shaped network.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: jamestheredengine on April 30, 2019, 12:27:05
Yet another case of putting customers (who pay their wages) first last.

If the surfboard were a fare-paying passenger, that would be a fair point. Maybe if GWR were to sell tickets for surfboards, double basses, bicycles, outsize prams, and dogs it would have more interest in providing a service to such customers.

I am not sure whether this intended as irony given that GWR DO charge for surfboards and double basses [£5 IIRC]! I have no idea whether/how it is policed.
At two thirds of the cheapest Child Advance ticket from Paddington, that's a bit of a drop in the ocean (groan), even if they did succeed in charging it. (I had no idea that dog tickets etc were even a thing any more.)


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on April 30, 2019, 12:39:59
Going to be interesting to see how they plan to police that when people show up with their surfboards who were used to travelling with them on an HST. An issue even Broadgage’s crystal ball failed to see this. There may be trouble ahead.


My crystal ball DID foresee this, several years ago. An advocate of IETs replied that the reduced luggage space would not be a problem as HSTs were to be retained for services to Cornwall.
It   was later decided that a uniformly downgraded fleet would be simpler.
This is called progress.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: eXPassenger on April 30, 2019, 14:32:52
….
Let's hope the Famous Five don't have any surfing planned.

Like the picture of the Famous Five surfing which I received in an email from GWR yesterday.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: LiskeardRich on April 30, 2019, 14:35:07
Surfboards are also  not permitted on First Buses


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on April 30, 2019, 15:51:02
….
Let's hope the Famous Five don't have any surfing planned.

Like the picture of the Famous Five surfing which I received in an email from GWR yesterday.


Part of a Senior Railcard promotion ... but the train shown in the background is 2 cars with end doors - so probably a class 143 on which surfboards would be allowed.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Lee on April 30, 2019, 16:19:12
….
Let's hope the Famous Five don't have any surfing planned.

Especially after last time...

(https://d1w7fb2mkkr3kw.cloudfront.net/assets/images/book/lrg/9780/3402/9780340265253.jpg)


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: LiskeardRich on April 30, 2019, 17:42:43
….
Let's hope the Famous Five don't have any surfing planned.

Like the picture of the Famous Five surfing which I received in an email from GWR yesterday.


Part of a Senior Railcard promotion ... but the train shown in the background is 2 cars with end doors - so probably a class 143 on which surfboards would be allowed.

But not if it’s busy! The policy above states only permitted if the service isn’t busy. Now what constitutes busy?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Umberleigh on May 02, 2019, 19:28:49
Perhaps the answer is to take a single car unit, perhaps a 153 might suit, and convert it into a luggage car to be attached to Paddington to Newquay trains for surfboard storage.

Or am I a bit north of the border with this idea?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on May 02, 2019, 20:25:24
Perhaps the answer is to take a single car unit, perhaps a 153 might suit, and convert it into a luggage car to be attached to Paddington to Newquay trains for surfboard storage.

Or am I a bit north of the border with this idea?

For attachment to a proper train, the idea has considerable merit. A powered DMU vehicle could be attached to an existing and compatible (or modified to be compatible) type of DMU, AFAIK something similar is being done in Scotland for carrying cycles rather than surfboards.
Alternatively a unpowered trailer vehicle could be attached to a loco hauled set of coaches, also to carry surf boards, cycles or other bulky items.

Cant see it working with an IET though ! These units are fantastically complicated and almost certainly wont work in multiple with anything else.
And even if the considerable technical issues could be overcome, the contractual issues would be as bad. Also having to attach a decades old vehicle to a new and shiny train might be seen as an admission of failure in that it suggests that the new DMUs are not suitable for the routes that they work.

Simpler to just ban surf boards. Those with such can go by road.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Celestial on May 02, 2019, 21:06:20
Perhaps the answer is to take a single car unit, perhaps a 153 might suit, and convert it into a luggage car to be attached to Paddington to Newquay trains for surfboard storage.

Or am I a bit north of the border with this idea?

For attachment to a proper train, the idea has considerable merit. A powered DMU vehicle could be attached to an existing and compatible (or modified to be compatible) type of DMU, AFAIK something similar is being done in Scotland for carrying cycles rather than surfboards.
Alternatively a unpowered trailer vehicle could be attached to a loco hauled set of coaches, also to carry surf boards, cycles or other bulky items.

Cant see it working with an IET though ! These units are fantastically complicated and almost certainly wont work in multiple with anything else.
And even if the considerable technical issues could be overcome, the contractual issues would be as bad. Also having to attach a decades old vehicle to a new and shiny train might be seen as an admission of failure in that it suggests that the new DMUs are not suitable for the routes that they work.

Simpler to just ban surf boards. Those with such can go by road.
You could always turn half of the 153 into a buffet broadgage. No need for seats - you could join the surfers thronged around the bar with their tinnies for the journey.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 02, 2019, 22:27:07
I wonder how many surfboards you could fit in an IET kitchen...  ;D


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Sleepy on May 03, 2019, 00:01:47
Or they'll travel with Cross Country quite happily until arriving at Par & are refused travel on the branch line ?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on May 10, 2019, 20:27:00
From Cornwall Live (https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/fury-over-great-western-railways-2855865)

Quote
Fury over Great Western Railway's new surfboard policy

The new Great Western Railway (GWR) trains to speed up services in and out of Cornwall can not take surfboards.

Surfers wishing ride on one of the company's new Intercity Express Trains in the county famed for it's waves, will have to leave their boards behind.

While GWR previously allowed boards onto its trains, to be stored in the 'guard van', the new trains have been redesigned to accommodate more passengers, cutting storage space.

Surfers said that they felt that the issue was a "design flaw" which has been "overlooked".


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: bradshaw on May 10, 2019, 20:31:59
Featured on BBC Spotlight this evening.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Andy on May 13, 2019, 10:47:43
From Cornwall Live (https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/fury-over-great-western-railways-2855865)

Quote
Fury over Great Western Railway's new surfboard policy

The new Great Western Railway (GWR) trains to speed up services in and out of Cornwall can not take surfboards.

Surfers wishing ride on one of the company's new Intercity Express Trains in the county famed for it's waves, will have to leave their boards behind.

While GWR previously allowed boards onto its trains, to be stored in the 'guard van', the new trains have been redesigned to accommodate more passengers, cutting storage space.

Surfers said that they felt that the issue was a "design flaw" which has been "overlooked".


Oh dear.

"can not take surfboards" :o
"famed for it's waves" >:(
'guard van'? ::)



Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: LiskeardRich on May 13, 2019, 12:09:04
Newquay surfboard hire companies I imagine are rubbing their hands!


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on May 14, 2019, 17:35:11
From Cornwall Live (https://www.cornwalllive.com/news/cornwall-news/fury-over-great-western-railways-2855865)

Quote
Fury over Great Western Railway's new surfboard policy

The new Great Western Railway (GWR) trains to speed up services in and out of Cornwall can not take surfboards.

Surfers wishing ride on one of the company's new Intercity Express Trains in the county famed for it's waves, will have to leave their boards behind.

While GWR previously allowed boards onto its trains, to be stored in the 'guard van', the new trains have been redesigned to accommodate more passengers, cutting storage space.

Surfers said that they felt that the issue was a "design flaw" which has been "overlooked".

Thank goodness this is getting some publicity.
I notice that GWR have kept this policy change quiet until the new trains have been designed, delivered and nearly in full squadron service. Maybe GWR did another ‘survey’ of passengers and that resulted in no demand for surfboard storage provision! Another example of the railway doing what it wants rather than what its passengers want. The whole thing is a dirty trick, quite disgusting really. For a while now we’ve been promised extra capacity with the arrival of the new fleet (with apparently no need to keep any 8 coach HSTs) and now we realise that they’ll be extra seats (and presumably extra revenue) but with less space for the stuff that people want to take with them! Furthermore, the policy of surfboards being permitted on units (such as 150s), Castle class HSTs, and the Night Riviera (or a rail replacement coach?) but not IETs will probably just be confusing to most people.
There is some space on IETS for surfboards, I was on an IET in Cornwall quite recently and someone had a large mountain bike (which is bigger than most surfboards) in the cycle/storage area with no problem at all. I don’t see why you can’t open reservations up for surfboards and double basses etc as well as bikes. Any confusion over sizes permitted can be resolved with a maximum size guide in the Conditions of carriage. If, it turns out that, you keep getting the storage areas fully reserved, then you know that there’s a need to create some more storage areas.
The cycling lobby seems comparatively (commendably) quite strong and this is probably the only reason that you can still take bikes on trains. It’s about time the surfing lobby and the Musicians union etc were also heard.
Remember all this is at a time when we’re being told, on a daily basis, by the media on how the future of the planet is in the balance due to the nature of our energy consumption and travel behaviour.
The line from Paddington to Penzance is not a 30-minute commuter line in Central London where you may be able to get away with things such as no catering or toilets etc
It’s a 5hr plus Inter-City route and should have things such as:
Reservable seats,
Proper food provision – including hot food
Toilets and accessible toilets
Places to put luggage, wheelchairs, push chairs, bikes, surfboards etc
Seats suitable for a long-distance journey
Seats which give you a reasonable view of outside (not like on a Pendolino!)
A quiet coach
I would further add that stations should have platforms that are (wherever possible) extended to be long enough for the trains that serve them, so you don’t have to get on and carry your luggage through several carriages to get to your seat, and also avoiding the ‘for station x disembark through coaches x, y, and z, for station y disembark through coaches a, b and c’ scenarios.
I’m not sure if Ladybird do a book on ‘How to run a railway’ but if they do some TOCs might find it useful!
Note to Administrators: This post possibly relates to wider than just Plymouth and Cornwall!?
KM


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 14, 2019, 20:37:58
I must admit to having no knowledge of surfboards, but I’ve heard several people suggest that one or two of the five luggage/bike areas on a 9-car train could easily be used as a storage space for surfboards if a couple of securing straps were added. 


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: didcotdean on May 14, 2019, 20:57:34
The DfT specified "stowage solutions" only for the following types of luggage to be accommodated:

Small Bag    300x345x420mm
Large Bag      800x570x300 mm
Bicycle      Full size ‘road’ bicycle with 25inch frame
Pushchair Full size single foldable pushchair 950x500x300mm (folded)

I guess no one in that procurement team was a surfer ...


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 14, 2019, 22:39:45
Maybe not, but if they fit?  Mind you, no doubt it’ll be a variation of contract and have to go through approval with Hitachi and the DfT before straps can be fitted...  ::)


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: froome on May 15, 2019, 05:58:39
….
Let's hope the Famous Five don't have any surfing planned.

Like the picture of the Famous Five surfing which I received in an email from GWR yesterday.


Part of a Senior Railcard promotion ... but the train shown in the background is 2 cars with end doors - so probably a class 143 on which surfboards would be allowed.

But not if it’s busy! The policy above states only permitted if the service isn’t busy. Now what constitutes busy?

I'm trying to imagine the scene where a surfer brings their board onto the train at Par, and then at Bugle the train becomes too busy and the surfer is ejected from the train.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 15, 2019, 08:35:53
Proof that they fit just fine!


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on May 15, 2019, 09:02:06
I must admit to having no knowledge of surfboards, but I’ve heard several people suggest that one or two of the five luggage/bike areas on a 9-car train could easily be used as a storage space for surfboards if a couple of securing straps were added. 

Yes but what happens when a 5 car unit turns up for a crowd that includes 5 cycles, 2 surfboards, a couple of wheelchairs, and a few giant baby carriages ?
BTW there are about a dozen half length IETs today, must be the start of the holiday season.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 15, 2019, 10:03:26
I'm imagining a bronzed, tousle-haired dude catching the biggest wave and riding it onto the platform, onto the train, surfing all the way up to the buffet* and asking for a pint of Old Spice.

*Imagining, okay?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 15, 2019, 10:26:43
Yes but what happens when a 5 car unit turns up for a crowd that includes 5 cycles, 2 surfboards, a couple of wheelchairs, and a few giant baby carriages ?

There’s no doubt the HST power car space was useful on the oddoccasion like that.  A redundant utter waste of space 99.9% of the time though.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on May 15, 2019, 10:56:39
A proper inter-city train should have provision for bulky luggage including cycles, surfboards and large cases. The fact that such space is unused much of the time is simply part of running a train service.
A lot of seats go unused at off peak times.
Large luggage space may be unused outside of the holiday season.
Wheelchair spaces are often unused.

As the IETs make such efficient use of space, with no space "wasted" on a buffet and with minimal provision for cycles, no space "wasted" on carrying surfboards, may we look forward to significant reduction in fares ?
All this space saving efficiency should be reflected in the fares.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 15, 2019, 11:34:35
A proper inter-city train should have provision for bulky luggage including cycles, surfboards and large cases. The fact that such space is unused much of the time is simply part of running a train service.

I think the picture I posted this morning proved that they do have adequate space.  Potentially 10 bikes, or a combination of bikes, bulky luggage and, as proven, at least two surfboards per compartment on 9-car train.  Passengers are also able to keep an eye on their possessions during the journey unlike on HSTs.

There is inadequate provision for buggies however, hence my suggestion of a few weeks ago.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 15, 2019, 13:31:23
Having had a good look at the luggage/bike areas today and looking at the photo I posted earlier, assuming that is of a full sized surfboard, I reckon you could fit three in each compartment.  There’s room for one to the left of the dividing bar (as shown), but there’s more room to the right of the bar as you don’t have the folded down shelves taking up space, so I reckon two could be stowed there.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: mjray on May 15, 2019, 14:29:12
I probably shouldn't suggest this, but if they fit in the bike racks, why not just reserve a bike space? Draw a few bike symbols on the bag and claim that it's a bagged bike if anyone asks. Take a luggage strap to strap it to the rails if you feel the need.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on May 15, 2019, 16:27:24
The fact that such space is unused much of the time is simply part of running a train service.
A lot of seats go unused at off peak times.
Large luggage space may be unused outside of the holiday season.
Wheelchair spaces are often unused.

Agreed (the bit I have highlighted in purple)

I know of only a very few public transports which only depart when they are full and they very few times I have used one I have felt irritated by the wait, and the inevitable heavy crowding.



Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Worcester_Passenger on May 15, 2019, 16:41:02
Some years ago I travelled on the winter through Eurostar service to the Alps.

There's a demand on this for people who want to bring their skis with them.

Very sensibly, Eurostar deal with this by not selling two pairs of seats at the end of each coach, and then covering these with a plastic cover (exactly like the ones that the garage puts on your driver's seat). The cover has a pictogram on it of some skis.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Umberleigh on May 15, 2019, 20:04:20
London commuters have a very loud collective voice and GWR prioritise their needs over long distance passengers. The new IETs are no exception, with plenty of seats but no buffet, limited heavy luggage storage and space for only a handful of bikes. Perhaps its time that GWR Long Distance became a separate franchise, with strictly controlled pick-up/put-down at Reading and 9 car IETs reformatted to accommodate the needs of the long distance traveller? Then short distance GWR could squeeze extra seats into the 5 car sets (you don’t need all those toilets!) and abolish the token trolley service


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: rogerw on May 15, 2019, 20:14:22
The IETs were specified by DfT and were a condition of the franchise.  The later ones, although ordered by GWR still had to be approved by DfT and I suspect that it was significantly cheaper to stick with existing designs.  Does anyone at Dft actually know what a surfboard is?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: MarkHopwood on May 15, 2019, 21:57:49
There are a number of practical reasons why train length cannot exceed 9 or 10 cars and the pressing need from customers is for more seats. Other contributors have commented on the wasted space in HST power cars.

Other posts here make less flattering comments about short distance journeys on InterCity trains - the market has developed that way thanks to differing levels of economic growth and national house building strategy. It’s not for us at GWR to change that but the IET trains clearly had to meet a variety of customer needs including very clear expectations from customers, stakeholders and government they would bring an increase in capacity.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: mjray on May 16, 2019, 13:28:53
Perhaps its time that GWR Long Distance became a separate franchise,
Didn't we already try that? I remember the days of GWR being the Intercity operator and suffering Thames Trains, Wales & West, Valley Lines and who remembers what else?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on May 16, 2019, 13:56:46
Perhaps its time that GWR Long Distance became a separate franchise,
Didn't we already try that? I remember the days of GWR being the Intercity operator and suffering Thames Trains, Wales & West, Valley Lines and who remembers what else?

Good and bad ...

* When asking (FGW) staff at Swindon how to get to Melksham (a Wessex train) being directed to the Bath train with advise to take a bus from there ... when a TransWilts train (that name not in use in those days) was sitting the the bay, running 5 times a day, and due out about 10 minutes later. These days - eventually - a much better service an a much better attitude towards it.

* Direct trains Chippenham and Swindon to Oxford - sadly missed. As are the middle of the night Maesteg to Waterloo via Chippenham service, and that direct Stockport to Bradford-on-Avon service I once took, though neither would have the same business or political case these days with Eurostar moved from Waterloo to St Pancras.



Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: jamestheredengine on May 16, 2019, 14:17:52
Perhaps its time that GWR Long Distance became a separate franchise,
Didn't we already try that? I remember the days of GWR being the Intercity operator and suffering Thames Trains, Wales & West, Valley Lines and who remembers what else?
The problem was that the split was in the wrong place. Alphaline services generally belonged in Intercity.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 16, 2019, 20:37:38
The IETs were specified by DfT and were a condition of the franchise.

I think what's most frustrating is that although the IET layouts were specified by DfT, the day-to-day usage of bike and luggage spaces wasn't - that's entirely at GWR's discretion.

GWR have chosen a "one size fits all" policy where the same rules apply to every train, whatever service it's working, whatever time of year. No surfboards for Cornwall. No extra bike allocation for the Cotswolds, where we've been reduced from 6 bikes per 180 to 2 per 5-coach IET. And so on. In an age of train-by-train yield management, it should be possible to do better than that.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Chris from Nailsea on May 17, 2019, 00:43:38
MarkHopwood, I welcome your previous post on this topic - thank you for contributing! - but are you able to expand your comments in response to the particular point raised by Richard Fairhurst above?



Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: PhilWakely on May 17, 2019, 07:25:40
The IETs were specified by DfT and were a condition of the franchise.

I think what's most frustrating is that although the IET layouts were specified by DfT, the day-to-day usage of bike and luggage spaces wasn't - that's entirely at GWR's discretion.

GWR have chosen a "one size fits all" policy where the same rules apply to every train, whatever service it's working, whatever time of year. No surfboards for Cornwall. No extra bike allocation for the Cotswolds. And so on. In an age of train-by-train yield management, it should be possible to do better than that.

My impression is that the GWR IET was designed as a middle-distance commuter (eg Bristol to London and all points in between) train with the longer distance traveller ignored.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on May 17, 2019, 12:45:09
Indeed, years ago I expressed the view that the IETs were basically a commuter train and unsuited to inter-city use.
IET supporters disagreed and some pointed out that IETs were intended for the shorter journeys, with HSTs being retained for Cornish services.

Then it was announced that no HSTs were being retained and all long distance services were to be downgraded to DMUs.

IET supporters then rallied with the suggestion that the additional IETs for the Cornish services "could" be to a better specification, including more luggage space, and "might" include a buffet.
I replied that this seemed unlikely, to which advocates of the new DMUs stated that I should not be so negative "before any of us have even seen any of the follow on order".

In fact of course the additional units were of the same commuter style.

And whilst I have not yet seen every example of the IET fleet, I can state that none of them have buffets.
Toilets are unreliable.
Seat reservations seldom work.
Seat are too hard.
Single 5 car formations are a frequent feature, over a dozen yesterday.
The catering downgrade has been a fiasco, with the trolley often either entirely absent, or hiding in first class, or in the other unit of a 5+5 train.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Henry on May 17, 2019, 14:26:45
''Indeed, years ago I expressed the view that the IETs were basically a commuter train and unsuited to inter-city use.
IET supporters disagreed and some pointed out that IETs were intended for the shorter journeys, with HSTs being retained for Cornish services.''

 Totally agree with broadgage, I had the same opinion of Cross-Country Voyager's when they were introduced. Ironic that XC
 are running converted HST's.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: eXPassenger on May 17, 2019, 16:59:09
Quote
And whilst I have not yet seen every example of the IET fleet, I can state that none of them have buffets.
Toilets are unreliable.
Seat reservations seldom work.
Seat are too hard.
Single 5 car formations are a frequent feature, over a dozen yesterday.
The catering downgrade has been a fiasco, with the trolley often either entirely absent, or hiding in first class, or in the other unit of a 5+5 train.

Yesterday the 9:00 Temple Meads to Paddington was 2x5.  No trolley in front portion and a garbled announcement that the static trolley was in coach B in the rear portion.  No seat reservations and no announcements of that fact.  No sign of any GWR staff all journey.

Return 20:45.  Paper seat reservations, no sign of any trolley and train manager checked tickets after Swindon.

Seats Yatton Temple Meads and return FAR more comfortable than the IETs.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TonyK on May 17, 2019, 19:41:07
If the surfboard were a fare-paying passenger, that would be a fair point. Maybe if GWR were to sell tickets for surfboards, double basses, bicycles, outsize prams, and dogs it would have more interest in providing a service to such customers.

Not Finn, obviously.

Back in 1977, I practically moved house from Blackpool to Bristol by train. Not that I had a great deal of kit, but two rucksacks, a suitcase and a 6-piece stereo system with quite large speakers was a bit of a task. I would have found it nigh impossible but for only having to change at Birmingham New Street, now an option once more, and the assistance of some rather festive Jollies en route to the Indian Ocean via Plymouth, who helped me transfer the stuff from one train to another, and detrained it at Bristol Temple Meads. The worst bit was getting it from Temple Meads to my then pokey little bedsit in Cotham, without the price of a taxi in my pocket. It would have been easier had it not been a Sunday, at a time when Redland trains didn't run. I did it by 100 metre or so leapfrogs. To my advantage, Carolina House in Kingsdown was at that time open to the public, rather than the current door entry system now in place, so I went in on the ground floor and took the lift to the 8th or 9th, thus saving the schlep up Ninetree Hill.

I'm not proud of it, and won't be doing it again in a hurry.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on May 17, 2019, 20:32:44
I believe this is a notice on display at Paddington - heavily photoshopped to make the text easily readable.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/nosboards.jpg)


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TonyK on May 17, 2019, 21:14:57
I believe this is a notice on display at Paddington - heavily photoshopped to make the text easily readable.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/nosboards.jpg)

So no problem then. Ryanair stopped carrying surfboards without an extra fee from London (-ish) Stansted some years ago. I believe that surfboards can be rented in Newquay, and there will be fewer comedy incidents with passengers getting whacked around the head without them. Someone must be able to invent a folding surfboard.

Frankly, I see the railway as a service to passengers, not London-based surfers.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 17, 2019, 21:23:56
If the surfboard were a fare-paying passenger, that would be a fair point. Maybe if GWR were to sell tickets for surfboards, double basses, bicycles, outsize prams, and dogs it would have more interest in providing a service to such customers.

Not Finn, obviously.

Back in 1977, I practically moved house from Blackpool to Bristol by train. Not that I had a great deal of kit, but two rucksacks, a suitcase and a 6-piece stereo system with quite large speakers was a bit of a task. I would have found it nigh impossible but for only having to change at Birmingham New Street, now an option once more, and the assistance of some rather festive Jollies en route to the Indian Ocean via Plymouth, who helped me transfer the stuff from one train to another, and detrained it at Bristol Temple Meads. The worst bit was getting it from Temple Meads to my then pokey little bedsit in Cotham, without the price of a taxi in my pocket. It would have been easier had it not been a Sunday, at a time when Redland trains didn't run. I did it by 100 metre or so leapfrogs. To my advantage, Carolina House in Kingsdown was at that time open to the public, rather than the current door entry system now in place, so I went in on the ground floor and took the lift to the 8th or 9th, thus saving the schlep up Ninetree Hill.

I'm not proud of it, and won't be doing it again in a hurry.
If you'd had a surfboard, you could have put all the other stuff on it and used it as a sledge.  ;D Though it might just have slid back down Ninetree Hill... (and quite likely broken the surfboard).


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on May 20, 2019, 01:48:00
Frankly, I see the railway as a service to passengers, not London-based surfers.

Indeed that just about sums it up! Some groups / sections of society are seen as 'passengers' by GWR and other groups / sections are not!

But this situation isn't just about surfers, the way this new 'rule' has been seemingly secretly rolled out without planning or consultation, despite the fact that there is a clear demand for surfboard accommodation, should be a warning to us all.

It may be surfers affected today but tomorrow will it be, for example:

Cyclists

those wishing to purchase food/drink

those requiring an accessible toilet

the list could go on.

Once you say the railway is for this type of passenger but not that type of passenger it can be a slippery slope..

In his post on this thread Mark Hopwood mentions the increased seating capacity of the IETs, and of course this is very welcome, but in their current format, I'm not sure that IETs are suitable, particularly for the longer-distance InterCity routes. What is also important, for any company, is to listen to customers and their concerns, or suffer the fallout/bad press etc from not doing so. In this case will GWR listen and act, only time will tell I guess?

KM


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: ellendune on May 20, 2019, 07:40:02
But this situation isn't just about surfers, the way this new 'rule' has been seemingly secretly rolled out without planning or consultation, despite the fact that there is a clear demand for surfboard accommodation, should be a warning to us all.

A clear demand on how many services in a year? If money had to be spent to make this provision how much would it subsidise each surf board user? Or would the charge to pay for it, remove the demand?

It may be surfers affected today but tomorrow will it be, for example:

Cyclists

those wishing to purchase food/drink

those requiring an accessible toilet

the list could go on.

Now this is just getting silly.  The accessible toilet is required by law (provided toilets are provided at all).    


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: mjray on May 20, 2019, 11:05:18
But this situation isn't just about surfers, the way this new 'rule' has been seemingly secretly rolled out without planning or consultation, despite the fact that there is a clear demand for surfboard accommodation, should be a warning to us all.

A clear demand on how many services in a year? If money had to be spent to make this provision how much would it subsidise each surf board user? Or would the charge to pay for it, remove the demand?
Why does it matter how many services? And is money needed because aren't the large luggage spaces intended to facilitate carriage of such, well, large luggage?

Do we really want to try charging to force the remaining surfers off the railways and onto the motorways?
Now this is just getting silly.  The accessible toilet is required by law (provided toilets are provided at all).    
Good luck enforcing that sort of law. It now seems like you pretty much have to beg a regulator or charity to support your case. If they get away with this, I suspect they could drop any feature by stealth and it would take months to years to restore the ones required by law, by which time most who need them would have had to find alternatives... but that is getting a bit off-topic here.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on May 21, 2019, 11:23:42
Difficult call as to how much or how little should be done to handle the more specialist travel requirements - the tradeoff between commercial operation and customer need, the questions as to how much subsidy and cross-subsidy there should be, and whether resources need to be put in for occasional peaks.

As a matter of interest, I followed up by looking at the schedules for the London to Newquay services that remain available for those with Surfboards (night sleeper train connecting to local). See attachments to this post. A daily service; London to Newquay connection is awful with a 2 and a half hour wait at Par.  On the way back, it's a 30 minute connection.

Has anyone suggested Waterloo - Exeter - local train onwards yet?  How are SWR with surfboards?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 21, 2019, 15:53:21
Since GWR halved thirded bike capacity, I've taken to using my folding bike in most cases - I'm lucky to have a really lovely one (a Bike Friday (https://www.bikefriday.com/folding-bikes/product/bike-friday-new-world-tourist-folding-bike) from Oregon) which rides almost like a proper bike.

So I was about to make a glib comment here about folding surfboards. But it turns out they actually exist...

https://www.surfertoday.com/surfing/the-fantastic-world-of-collapsible-surfboards


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Henry on May 21, 2019, 16:39:41

 Slightly off subject, Dartington have their annual music festival soon.

 So I assume a double bass will also have the same prohibition as a surf-board.
 


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 21, 2019, 18:25:49
Surely it would be possible during Boardmasters to have say 2 or 3 trains a day to/from Paddington where a limited number of surfboards are carried (reservation only basis) in preference to bikes? Or even run a relief service? It's only one weekend a year for goodness sake, surely there's room for even GWR to use a bit of intelligence & compromise?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: PhilWakely on May 21, 2019, 18:47:44
Surely it would be possible during Boardmasters to have say 2 or 3 trains a day to/from Paddington where a limited number of surfboards are carried (reservation only basis) in preference to bikes? Or even run a relief service? It's only one weekend a year for goodness sake, surely there's room for even GWR to use a bit of intelligence & compromise?

Or <shock horror mode> utilise a couple of the spare 2+8 HST sets still around! </shock horror mode>


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Timmer on May 21, 2019, 19:13:03
Surely it would be possible during Boardmasters to have say 2 or 3 trains a day to/from Paddington where a limited number of surfboards are carried (reservation only basis) in preference to bikes? Or even run a relief service? It's only one weekend a year for goodness sake, surely there's room for even GWR to use a bit of intelligence & compromise?
I would like to think GWR already have a plan for when Boardmasters take place bearing in mind they do run extra services for the event. We shall see.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: stuving on May 21, 2019, 20:36:58
French trains are bigger than ours, so you'd expect there to be no problem in taking surfboards and skis on TGVs. So I thought I'd have a look - and apparently that's not so. It isn't 100% clear, as in some places SNCF say there are no limits on bagages. But of course that may not include things that have names of their own.

Where there is a size limit given, it's for all planches nautiques, and it's 1.2 x 0.9m and in a carrying bag. On the other hand, there's a general expectation for trains that if you can carry it on it'll be OK - and advice from surfers to get it on board and flat on a rack without making it obvious, and hope to get away with it. The cheaper Ouigo trains have quite strict luggage limits. I suspect there's a bit of history between SNCF and surfers - I came across a page describing a new card for kids and specially adapted trains for going surfing ... and the the bottom it said poisson d'Avril.

For comparison, skis are allowed, with no length limit, and unfolded bikes are now by reservation only at €10 each. SNCF push their luggage in advance service, at €80 (for three dimensions adding to 3m or less), and in one place quote a penalty charge of €174 for oversize items on trains.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 21, 2019, 20:44:56

 Slightly off subject, Dartington have their annual music festival soon.

 So I assume a double bass will also have the same prohibition as a surf-board.
 
As a double bass is larger than a surfboard (not as long/tall but much "deeper" pun not intended) and more fragile, I doubt many try it. I know that when bassists and cellists fly, they usually book another seat for their instrument rather than entrust it to the hold.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: ChrisB on May 22, 2019, 09:08:51
Surely it would be possible during Boardmasters to have say 2 or 3 trains a day to/from Paddington where a limited number of surfboards are carried (reservation only basis) in preference to bikes? Or even run a relief service? It's only one weekend a year for goodness sake, surely there's room for even GWR to use a bit of intelligence & compromise?

Or <shock horror mode> utilise a couple of the spare 2+8 HST sets still around! </shock horror mode>

<shock horror mode> poster forgets that drivers need regular route learning knowledge *all year* <shocjk horror mode>


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on May 22, 2019, 10:42:45
Surely it would be possible during Boardmasters to have say 2 or 3 trains a day to/from Paddington where a limited number of surfboards are carried (reservation only basis) in preference to bikes? Or even run a relief service? It's only one weekend a year for goodness sake, surely there's room for even GWR to use a bit of intelligence & compromise?

Or <shock horror mode> utilise a couple of the spare 2+8 HST sets still around! </shock horror mode>

Considered logically, yes a few HSTs should have been kept in reserve for occasions like this, and also to reduce short formed IETs of which there are about a dozen again today.

GWR have however put a lot of effort into the IET project, and into trying to convince us that luggage space, buffets, and padded seats are no longer wanted.
Use of a 40 year old train on the mainline would be seen as an admission of defeat and would prolong negative comparisons.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Timmer on May 22, 2019, 12:07:06
GWR have however put a lot of effort into the IET project, and into trying to convince us that luggage space, buffets, and padded seats are no longer wanted.
Trains imposed on them by Dft.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 22, 2019, 12:34:13
...and also to reduce short formed IETs of which there are about a dozen again today.

Another reminder that JourneyCheck is, sadly, discredited when relying on formation information...

The 12:15 PAD-CDF has just been observed by myself as a 10-car (showing 5 on JourneyCheck) and I strongly suspect, looking at the unit allocations, that the 11:00 PAD-BRI was in fact also a 10-car.

Add in their later workings and there's your 'about a dozen' that are actually now 10-cars.  That's not to say there aren't others running around short that aren't on JourneyCheck - I haven't got time to check.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 22, 2019, 18:29:37
Surely it would be possible during Boardmasters to have say 2 or 3 trains a day to/from Paddington where a limited number of surfboards are carried (reservation only basis) in preference to bikes? Or even run a relief service? It's only one weekend a year for goodness sake, surely there's room for even GWR to use a bit of intelligence & compromise?
I would like to think GWR already have a plan for when Boardmasters take place bearing in mind they do run extra services for the event. We shall see.

Apparently details are to be released shortly - I think in previous years a morning service from Paddington which normally terminates at Plymouth is extended to Newquay?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: PhilWakely on May 25, 2019, 07:33:24
Just a thought - whilst not exactly surfboards - I wonder how the 'army' of Royal Naval College, Dartmouth folk will cope when they all turn up at once at Totnes station at the end of each college session? They will all be carrying ironing boards. 


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on May 27, 2019, 01:59:58
Interestingly the issue with luggage space etc has happened before - with the HST.
AFAIK The first HSTs introduced on the Paddington to Swansea route in 1976 did not have a TGS in the formation. It was only later that some standard (second) class coaches were converted to TGS's and other TGS's were built from new, giving all Western region HSTs a TGS from 1980.
KM


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 27, 2019, 03:11:42
Yes, the original western formations were 2+7.  The guard was positioned in the power car, but it soon became clear that was an unacceptable place to be (bloody noisy with a Valenta engine screaming close-by!) so carriages were adapted with TGS’s.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: martyjon on May 27, 2019, 11:59:33
Yes, the original western formations were 2+7. 


Yes, I remember the original 2+7 formation of the HST's which included 2 catering vehicles, a TRUB (Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Buffet) and a TRUK (Trailer Restaurant Unclassified Kitchen).

On todays replacements, the IET's you are lucky if you get the promised trolley service visit you at your seat, something that you are GUARANTEED on an EasyJet service.

 ;D ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 27, 2019, 12:11:24
Yes it was a very different railway then.  Imagine if the number of folk travelling today tried to travel back then with those formations and infrequent services.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: FarWestJohn on May 27, 2019, 18:27:40
I got on a ten car 802 at St. Erth today and I saw two surf boards were quite happily stored vertically in first class between the luggage rack and the seat back!! No problem!!


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on May 27, 2019, 22:43:12
I got on a ten car 802 at St. Erth today and I saw two surf boards were quite happily stored vertically in first class between the luggage rack and the seat back!! No problem!!

I hope that you called the BTP to report this serious breach of the rules.
What if a surfboard had fallen onto a child, or spontaneously combusted, or even exploded. Imagine the perils to which innocent persons were exposed.
What if the train had been scratched, and then withdrawn for a week to remove the scratch. Consider the legal costs in apportioning blame for the scratch.
What if a special needs child had a surfboard phobia, suffered a fit and then died. Whom would be liable.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 27, 2019, 23:06:35
It’s fair to say those responsible for issuing the new IET surfboard guidelines are having to face some pretty strong criticism from front line staff.  And rightly so.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Timmer on May 28, 2019, 06:31:40
It’s fair to say those responsible for issuing the new IET surfboard guidelines are having to face some pretty strong criticism from front line staff.  And rightly so.
That’s because it’s nigh on impossible to enforce. Always easy to come up with these things in an office but not so easy for those expected to bring it to pass on the frontline after so many years of being able to transport larger items on the previous trains.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 28, 2019, 07:35:10
It’s fair to say those responsible for issuing the new IET surfboard guidelines are having to face some pretty strong criticism from front line staff.  And rightly so.
That’s because it’s nigh on impossible to enforce. Always easy to come up with these things in an office but not so easy for those expected to bring it to pass on the frontline after so many years of being able to transport larger items on the previous trains.

Indeed. Rather like the full size bicycle ban on local services to and from Paddington during the peak, which I have never seen enforced.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: LiskeardRich on May 28, 2019, 08:40:34
I imagine most staff will try and accommodate or turn a blind eye despite policy if it avoids conflict.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: martyjon on May 28, 2019, 09:04:02
It's the same with a no alcohol ban on certain rail services. I've seen it many times at Bristol Temple Meads with services to Cardiff on a big match day at the now named Principality Stadium and when I spoke a GWR person I was well acquainted with after I witnessed a fan with a case of 12 cans accompanied by 5 of his brother fans, his reply was, "I want to go home to see my wife and kids after my shift rather than my manager having to phone her up and tell her I've been taken to the Bristol Royal Infirmary after being beaten up by football fans after I tried to take alcohol off of them". BTP were present and they made no attempt to prevent those fans boarding either.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Timmer on May 28, 2019, 09:13:04
I imagine most staff will try and accommodate or turn a blind eye despite policy if it avoids conflict.
Exactly, which I believe in most cases that is what they are trained to do.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 28, 2019, 09:40:18
I imagine most staff will try and accommodate or turn a blind eye despite policy if it avoids conflict.
Exactly, which I believe in most cases that is what they are trained to do.

So if you're 6' 4", growl a bit and look a bit handy, you'll be able to get on with your surfboard, but if you're a dainty and polite 5' 0" female surfer, best invest in roof bars and get in the car as you'll be told your board can't be carried.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Timmer on May 28, 2019, 10:01:50
So if you're 6' 4", growl a bit and look a bit handy, you'll be able to get on with your surfboard, but if you're a dainty and polite 5' 0" female surfer, best invest in roof bars and get in the car as you'll be told your board can't be carried.
Sadly all too often in this day and age people resort to abuse and physical violence when they don't get their way and when they don't think that rules apply to them. The seemingly dainty and polite female surfer might not be so dainty and polite when told she cannot bring her surfboard aboard.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Western Explorer on May 28, 2019, 10:28:33
"What if the train had been scratched, and then withdrawn for a week to remove the scratch. Consider the legal costs in apportioning blame for the scratch."

Why should surfboards be treated any differently to bicycles? I would have thought that boards were less likely to cause damage than bikes.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 28, 2019, 11:15:26
What if the train had been scratched, and then withdrawn for a week to remove the scratch. Consider the legal costs in apportioning blame for the scratch.

Sssshh. Don't give them ideas. Next thing you know everything that could possibly cause a scratch will be removed from the train. Like knives and forks...


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on May 28, 2019, 11:30:20
"What if the train had been scratched, and then withdrawn for a week to remove the scratch. Consider the legal costs in apportioning blame for the scratch."

Why should surfboards be treated any differently to bicycles? I would have thought that boards were less likely to cause damage than bikes.

A good Hitachi lawyer might argue,
"cycles carried in the designated and purpose designed space are part of the design brief. Therefore we accept the odd minor dent and scratch of the cycle stowage area.
Surf boards carried improperly by wedging them behind the seats, are NOT part of the design brief. Any damage caused by such misuse  is the fault of GWR for permitting such misuse. GWR to pay for investigation and rectification. Unit out of service for the chargeable repairs. No compensation for non availability of the unit as this was caused by GWR misuse."


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Timmer on May 28, 2019, 11:33:28
Good points being made. Should the thread be named 'Hitachi bans surfboards from IET services'?  ;)


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 28, 2019, 11:40:43
Bikes are often carried where they shouldn’t be as well.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: didcotdean on May 28, 2019, 12:52:40
Digging back on this forum reminds me that surfboards used to be banned from all trains under the National Rail Conditions and it was only the action of then FGW allowing them on certain trains (to start with) that led to their carriage being given to be at the TOCs discretion.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: ChrisB on May 28, 2019, 17:39:19
Having discussed this briefly with GWR today, the IET has very limited space designed for oversize luggage (bike spaces basically). Rather than reduce bike spaces (which ain't going to be popular in the summer!), the decision's been taken not to carry them on this type of train.

Possible deal may be forthcoming whereby discounts on hire may be a possible offer.

I did explain that potential surfboarders will need to know *before* starting to travel rather than finding out by sight of posters at stations!

Pity those who get them to their destination, enjoy their holiday only to find they're refused travel on the return.

Visibility currently is extremely poor


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: eightonedee on May 28, 2019, 22:57:18
This does seem an opportunity lost.

While I've checked on-line, and it appears that they do not make many of the personal electronic gizmos that I expect most surfers might be interested in, they have a wide portfolio of industries in many fields. Surely cooperating with GWR, and (say) providing protective sheeting in corporate colours over seats in some first class areas so they could be used for surfboards would engender lots of goodwill, associates them with a major sports event and (who knows?) might just stick in the mind of someone who is promoted and who may have valuable contracts for their products and services to award who has to shortlist suppliers to invite to tender?

Whats not to like about "Hitachi - proud to support British surfers"?


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: ChrisB on May 29, 2019, 09:31:47
I got the impression that's it's a GWR decision, not a Hitachi requirement imposed on GWR. Space is the issue - they *reallly don't want them in the vestibules, so it's down to the bicycle area on IETs. And they'd be upstting the cyclists if they make room for surfboards.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 29, 2019, 10:25:04
I got the impression that's it's a GWR decision, not a Hitachi requirement imposed on GWR. Space is the issue - they *reallly don't want them in the vestibules, so it's down to the bicycle area on IETs. And they'd be upstting the cyclists if they make room for surfboards.

.....and we all know how cyclists can be if their divine rights are questioned.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Celestial on May 29, 2019, 13:02:09
I notice that if you go onto the Boardmasters site, under rail travel it links to a still live GWR page for 2018 (and which of course makes no comment about not allowing surfboards).  Admittedly that does say reservations are required, but it's a bit misleading and at a quick glance people may not realise it's out of date.

It does talk about the investment in more trains, more seats and faster journeys though.

Maybe there should be a new GWR page for Boardmasters 2019.

"Sorry, we don't welcome you any more, despite having more trains and more seats, as we promised last year. Why not increase your carbon emissions and go by road this year. You're too much of an inconvenience to us."


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on May 29, 2019, 13:44:28
Putting Boardmasters aside for a moment, Newquay doesn't seem to be very much on the radar at other times. Here we are in half term week, and cancellations mean that after the 13:05 departure, there are no further trains until the 19:21 arrival. Down to Staff Shortage; all main line trains running OK including the extras added into the timetable as from last week.  The railways are mass transit ... and secondary routes, special needs groups and specialist events  need, I'm afraid, to blow their trumpets and pick up megaphones to be heard sometimes above the £££ signs of profit and loss as main line traffic works or doesn't.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on May 29, 2019, 23:03:02
As a matter of interest, I followed up by looking at the schedules for the London to Newquay services that remain available for those with Surfboards (night sleeper train connecting to local). See attachments to this post. A daily service; London to Newquay connection is awful with a 2 and a half hour wait at Par.  On the way back, it's a 30 minute connection.


And Saturdays are even worse. The sad irony of the Newquay branch is that on Saturdays it's the least surfboard friendly of all of the Cornish Branchlines, on Saturdays it has seven services each way and three of those are Voyagers and two are IETs, leaving you with just two surfboard-friendly services, Thus:

Par - Newquay   Newquay - Par
8.19 -  9.09          9.40  -  10.27   Voyager     
9.54  - 10.47        11.28 - 12.22    IET
11.45 - 12.39       13.22 - 14.11    Castle Class HST
13.36 - 14.29       15.35  - 16.22   Voyager
15.48 - 16.47       17.28 - 18.20    IET
17.45 - 18.39       19.00 - 19.48    Voyager
20.23 - 21.15       21.18 - 22.06    Class 150


The first one up the branch that you can do with a surfboard is the Castle class HST at 11.45 - a whopping 5 hours and 10 minutes wait at Par off the down sleeper!









 


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: grahame on May 30, 2019, 01:18:11
Par - Newquay   Newquay - Par
8.19 -  9.09          9.40  -  10.27   Voyager     
9.54  - 10.47        11.28 - 12.22    IET
11.45 - 12.39       13.22 - 14.11    Castle Class HST
13.36 - 14.29       15.35  - 16.22   Voyager
15.48 - 16.47       17.28 - 18.20    IET
17.45 - 18.39       19.00 - 19.48    Voyager
20.23 - 21.15       21.18 - 22.06    Class 150

Somewhat off topic, I recall someone who was (at the time) way my senior bemoaning the end of steam, giving the reason that it took all the variety out of trains and made them all boring and the same.  Similar grumps at the removal of diesel loco hauled services.   I see a tremendous (lack of!!) consistency to Newquay!!


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: lordgoata on May 30, 2019, 13:57:52
Indeed. Rather like the full size bicycle ban on local services to and from Paddington during the peak, which I have never seen enforced.

I did, once at Reading. The chap with the bike went absolutely berserk, forced his way on anyway, refused to get off, was screaming at the platform staff. Train was delayed while they tried to get him off and eventually gave up. Quite honestly, I had never seen anything like it.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on June 08, 2019, 19:46:29
I note that in recent years the 10.03 Paddington to Penzance HST (Cornish Riviera) has, at busy times around Christmas and on some Summer Saturdays, been formed of 9 coaches with the addition of an extra TGS for extra luggage. I believe that the Summer Saturday 11.35 Paddington to Newquay HST (Atlantic Coast Express) has also been load 9 on occasions with the addition of an extra TGS. It will be interesting to see how these services cope this Summer.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: The Tall Controller on June 08, 2019, 20:59:17
Not really in recent years from my observations at least. I don't recall seeing many (if any 9 car HSTs) specifically for Summer diagrams in the last 5-6 years. Happy to be proved wrong though.

Except for Boardmasters, the Newquay summer trains aren't too busy these days.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: mjray on June 13, 2019, 11:36:29
Indeed. Rather like the full size bicycle ban on local services to and from Paddington during the peak, which I have never seen enforced.

I did, once at Reading. The chap with the bike went absolutely berserk, forced his way on anyway, refused to get off, was screaming at the platform staff. Train was delayed while they tried to get him off and eventually gave up. Quite honestly, I had never seen anything like it.
I hope they called ahead and had the police waiting for him at Paddington. I sometimes travel with a bike and while I think there should be decent bike spaces (which I'd pay a reasonably-priced supplement for, like abroad), there's not much excuse for forcing a full-size bike onto a peak time train under a fairly well-advertised ban.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on June 19, 2019, 17:14:32
Not really in recent years from my observations at least. I don't recall seeing many (if any 9 car HSTs) specifically for Summer diagrams in the last 5-6 years. Happy to be proved wrong though.

Except for Boardmasters, the Newquay summer trains aren't too busy these days.


Well I know that the down Riviera (10.06 Pad to Pz) on the 21st December 2017 was load 9 because I was on it. Staff at Paddington were advising passengers for Plymouth with large luggage to put it in the additional TGS (which was being used for luggage only, not for travelling in). As for the last time the Summer Saturdays Paddington - Newquay was load 9, I'm not sure, a thread on RailUK Forums entitled 'HST 8 or 9 coach' mentions it being load 9 in 2015 with the extra TGS being labelled 'Coach X' and being used for surfboards, suitcases etc.

As far as 2018 is concerned I'm not sure but I don't expect anything was load 9 in 2018 as GWR would of probably wanted to 'manage expectations' for when the IETs arrive.

As far as passenger numbers go for the Newquay branch, I'm not sure but I thought that they were pretty healthy, in fact I think I read somewhere that Cornwall County Council want to introduce another passing loop on the branch in order to increase the number of local services on the branch. A pretty good idea really for all travellers, local and long-distance, and especially when you consider that on a Summer Saturday there is only two trains each way that you can (officially) take a surfboard on. And also at the moment there is no reasonable connection off the down sleeper (the 'surfboard train') on any day, although running an early morning service wouldn't require a passing loop, just the will and finance to do so, but it would also be useful to commuters and early morning surf and non-surfboard travellers. 


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Reginald25 on June 19, 2019, 17:25:34
Sorry for my lack of knowledge. TGS ? 'load 9' ? Thanks. R25


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on June 19, 2019, 17:57:44
Sorry for my lack of knowledge. TGS ? 'load 9' ? Thanks. R25
TGS ... Trailer Guard Standard (Mark 3 coach type) - Basically the coach with the Guard's van at one end
Load 9 - A train with 9 coaches

Best KM


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on June 19, 2019, 18:35:27
I saw a big poster at Tottenham Court Road Tube station last week of the Famous Five watching surfers at, what appears to be, Dawlish, with an IET in the background, hmm.

I tried to paste a photo of it on here but couldn't work out how to do it!  :o


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TonyK on June 19, 2019, 18:48:14
I saw a big poster at Tottenham Court Road Tube station last week of the Famous Five watching surfers at, what appears to be, Dawlish, with an IET in the background, hmm.

I tried to paste a photo of it on here but couldn't work out how to do it!  :o

It's on GWR's website too, headed "Five have lashings of fun in the sun", rather than my own preference of "Five leave their surfboards at Paddington". I can't copy it from there, and would probably sour relations with the company if I tried.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on June 19, 2019, 19:01:21
I saw a big poster at Tottenham Court Road Tube station last week of the Famous Five watching surfers at, what appears to be, Dawlish, with an IET in the background, hmm.

I tried to paste a photo of it on here but couldn't work out how to do it!  :o

It's on GWR's website too, headed "Five have lashings of fun in the sun", rather than my own preference of "Five leave their surfboards at Paddington". I can't copy it from there, and would probably sour relations with the company if I tried.

 :) Ha ha! - or 'Five travel light' or 'Five prepare for a long journey by taking their own food with them'


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: FarWestJohn on June 19, 2019, 19:37:53
And five cushions.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TonyK on June 19, 2019, 20:03:05
And five cushions.

I was just going to offer "Five Complain about the Seats" or "Five Join Broadgage for Lunch".


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: broadgage on June 20, 2019, 03:12:26
And five cushions.

I was just going to offer "Five Complain about the Seats" or "Five Join Broadgage for Lunch".

No, it should be FOUR join broadgage for lunch, dogs are not allowed in the restaurant, poor Timmy, he looked so sad being left out.
Likewise, FOUR complain about the seats, dogs not being allowed on the seats, they would have no grounds for complaint.

"Four find inflatable camping cushions so useful on the train. Timmy had one also, but it burst when he bit it."


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: TonyK on June 21, 2019, 20:13:25

"Four find inflatable camping cushions so useful on the train."

My wife swapped mine for one she bought in a joke shop. So embarrassing.


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: FarWestJohn on June 21, 2019, 20:46:09
If they had a buffet shop they could sell cushions and make a fortune. No room on trolley!!


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Kernowman on August 14, 2019, 00:10:09
Btw from Autumn this year a £20 million 'surfing lake' opens just outside Bristol within reach of several stations including Bristol Parkway (but don't take your surfboard with you!). It's similar to Wales' 'surfing lake' in North West Wales but with newer technology and apparently a third 'surfing lake' is planned for North London in 2022. Please see links below:

https://www.itv.com/news/westcountry/2019-05-03/making-the-wave-20m-surfing-project-under-construction-near-bristol/

https://www.thewave.com/

KM


Title: Re: GWR bans surfboards from IET services
Post by: Western Pathfinder on August 14, 2019, 08:48:11
Another good reason for stopping a few more services at Pilning?...



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