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This morning my other half arrived at Heathrow Terminal 5 after an overnight flight from Johannesburg. She attempted to gain access to the station for the next available train to Paddington, but was refused access to the platform, being told that her ticket, an off-peak single with Senior Railcard for which she paid £45.60, was not valid until after 0930. On querying this and asking for a second opinion, another member of staff took the same view. After being told all this, I rang Heathrow Express Customer Services and, after listening to music for some 5 minutes or so, was told by their representative that the staff had acted correctly. He also said that their rules had changed in May 2018.

The three prices being displayed this morning on the GWR website for a single from Heathrow to Chippenham via Paddington with a Senior Railcard are £75.60 Anytime, £45.60 Off Peak and £38.00 Super Off Peak. The Anytime ticket is of course valid on all trains. The Off Peak ticket is shown as valid for trains departing Heathrow between 0818 and 0918, and the Super Off Peak is showing as being valid on trains departing Heathrow after 0948. All this corresponds with the restriction codes published on the National Rail Enquiries website – code yc for the off peak ticket (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/yc) and yu for the Off Peak ticket (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/yu).

This information either makes abundantly clear that her Off Peak ticket was valid on the train that she intended to take from Heathrow to Paddington or, if HEX staff were indeed correct in denying her access to the station, that the information currently published on the National Rail Enquiries website, and the GWR ticketing website page, are incorrect and need updating. Whichever is right, as I see it HEX staff have prevented a valid ticket from being used, resulting in her having to catch a later train for which she only needed to have paid £38.00, and not £45.60.

What do the Great and Good on this forum think? (PS I shall be sending a copy of my complaint to HEX on to GWR later today, as they ought to be interested in this as well)

The restrictions don't even mention the word Heathrow anywhere in their text or any other blanket restriction for the services not mentioned; IMO taking any train from Heathrow (should you be allowed on to the platform) on any of those 3 tickets and just observe the restrictions from Paddington would be fine.

What the journey planners do is "dovetail" the connection, greying out itineraries which would get you to Paddington at an invalid time (respecting minimum connection times) to catch you onward service. It doesn't mean the first leg isn't valid.

The railway (in the widest sense) appears to employ numerous members of staff who cannot or won’t understand anything more complicated than “offpeak = 0930”.  This can be correct for some period return fares, but definitely not all of them.

I expect you’ll get the usual apology from GWR, and then nothing will filter down to staff on the ground, and nothing will change...

Paul

Further to paul7755's point I think the staff and the phone line are getting mixed up with their own point to point fares which indeed have the 0930 restriction mentioned:
https://www.heathrowexpress.com/tickets-deals/prices-fares

Agreed.

And why do Heathrow Express refer to "Peak" and "Off Peak" when the rest of the rail industry uses the terms "Anytime" and "Off Peak"?

Yes. Furthermore, and I knew this already but I've just checked it again, the "cut" that HEX gets is the ame whichever type of ticket is used viz:

Journey      Anytime   Off Peak   Super OP LHR to CPM   £75.25   £45.60   £38.00 PAD to CPM   £58.75   £29.10   £21.50 Difference   £16.50   £16.50   £16.50

To clarify - those are Heathrow to Chippenham via Paddington prices with a railcard.

Lower "not via London" fares are available from Heathrow to Chippenham, but with two changes rather than one. When I last did that after a long flight - it was a while back, mind you, I could really have done without having to hump heavy luggage over the footbridge at Hayes and Harlington which at the time had the air of a construction site!

If there is a next time, apparently you can get an free inter-terminal transfer ticket which will get you beyond the initial staff ignorance problem and on to the train, at least.

I hadn't thought of that!  ;D

Of course, you might still walk into a row at the Paddington end with another member of staff who doesn't understand or hasn't been told about the limitations on HEX restrictions when it comes to multi-TOC tickets.

Yes those are via Paddington prices with a Senior Railcard, as I said in my original post. As you say, "not via London" tickets are available and cheaper but, as you also mention, lugging cases onto the platform at Hayes & Harlington (by the way, have they put lifts in yet?), or even from the bus onto the platform at RDG, is a pain in the proverbial compared to a flat transfer at Paddington.

She did use the railair bus once, and also National Express from Chippenham on another occasion, but she's now back to doing things my way after those bitter experiences!

Update

A complaint has gone to HEX suggesting that they refund her the £7.60 difference between the price she paid and the price she could have paid when using the trains she did.

A "for info" complaint has also gone to GWR, and a hard copy of the text of my complaint to HEX has been handed in at Chippenham with a suggestion that it is passed on to the station manager.

Does anybody think the media would be interested? The Gruniad is not above running anti-rail stories... ;)

Personally I would wait and see what response you get to your correspondence before deciding whether to take it further.

Shouldn’t do as HEX trains arrive at non-gated platforms at Padd.

PS I was sorry to read of your wife’s challenge at Heathrow rail station, the last thing you need after a long flight. It continues to annoy me when staff are not trained correctly in ticket validities. They shouldn’t be on the front line stopping those who have the correct and valid ticket from travelling.

I hope you are compensated for this.

Platforms 6 and 7 are gated at Paddington.

Only platforms 1, 8 and 9 are non-gated.

It still does!


No. I'm sure it's in Crossrails construction plans. I'm guessing the new central area stations will be completed before they attempt to finish the western ones.

I know the concourse is now gated,but is the footbridge?

Thx Ollie

Been a while since I last used HEX as this clearly shows as the last time I used it it wasn’t gated at 6 and 7.

This is actually what will probably happen, but it sometimes helps to put some momentum behind complaints so that the possibility of some lowly-graded and lowly-paid minion simply giving one of the stock replies from the list of stock replies is minimised. For example:

Person dealing with complaint reads it, notices the words "off peak," and thinks "case closed." Stock reply no 142 then gets copied and pasted: "Dear Sir - Thank you for contacting HEX about your recent experiences. However, it is company policy that off peak tickets are only available for travel after 0930 on weekdays, so we are unable ro help you in this case. Thank you for bringing the matter to our attention."

Conversely, if a local hack gets hold of the story and rings the HEX Public Relations and Press Officer (as they do), the matter will go straight to at least a Senior Manager if not the Chief Executive (having worked very closely with a PRO when I was a Complaints Officer I can assure you that this is a very good way to get one's complaint read by the right people!)

Yes it is.  Although the gateline is at the bottom of the steps leading up to it rather than on the footbridge itself.

A further update on the original complaint to HEX regarding denying access to the station at Terminal 5 before 0930 with an Off Peak ticket.

I got an email from them this afternoon asking me to ring them. I did so and, after going to some length advising the person I spoke to why HEX staff were wrong, he trotted out the same old line that HEX is not part of National Rail and that off peak tickets are not valid on their trains before 0930.

This is now four people employed by HEX that have told us this - two on the platform at Terminal 5 and two in their Customer Service Centre.

I asked him to put the apparent position of HEX in writing and that I would be taking the matter further. A lot further if needs be.

In my opinion this is now becoming serious. It is not just me or my partner who this potentially affects, but anybody attempting to use an HEX train before 0930 with a perfectly valid multi-TOC off peak ticket for onward travel beyond Paddington.

Yet another update. I copied the complaint to FGW for information and they have this afternoon replied as follows:

"Thank you for your email regarding your partner's journey on 2 July. I am sorry to hear they were refused to travel.
I have investigated the journey and can see the service was an off peak service so your partner should have been able to use their off peak single ticket.
I understand that you have sent in a complaint regarding this incident to Heathrow Express so I hope you hear from them soon. I am sorry for what your partner had to go through but hopefully, Heathrow Express can look into this incident and advise what went wrong and apologise to your partner.
Thanks again for getting in touch. Again, I am sorry to hear your partner was refused to travel with their valid train ticket. I hope things go more smoothly next time you travel."

So I've got allies in this war  ;D

In reply to that I emailed them asking whether it was possible for a GWR Senior Manager to have a quiet word in the ear of his/her opposite number at HEX to nip this in the bud before it goes all the way through the HEX Complaints Procedure and then the Rail Ombudsman if necessary. It will be interesting to see how this pans out.

Having spent probably far too much time on this matter, I now have a fair idea of what has gone on.

HEX introduced their peak/off peak distinction in June last year, and the times that each are available appear at clause 3.4 in their Conditions of Carriage. Prior to that there was only one basic standard class fare and that, without a railcard discount, was £25.00. The cost with a railcard discount was £16.50, and these continue to be the peak fares to this day.

After 0930 their off peak discount kicks in, and the lower fares are £22.00 without a railcard, and £14.52 with one. https://www.heathrowexpress.com/booking/ticket-selection?routeID=1&adultNR=1&childrenNR=0&day=8&month=0&promoCode=&railcardID=2

The single fares currently being charged between Heathrow and Chippenham via Paddington, and travel between Chippenham and Paddington only, with and without a railcard, are as follows:

With Senior Railcard          Journey                              Anytime   Off Peak   Super OP Heathrow to Chippenham       £75.25   £45.60   £38.00 Paddington to Chippenham     £58.75   £29.10   £21.50 Difference                              £16.50   £16.50   £16.50

HEX fare PAD to Heathrow with Senior Railcard   £16.50
Peak single with railcard discount      £16.50
Off peak express single                 £14.52

Prices without railcard          Journey                               Anytime   Off Peak   Super OP Heathrow to Chippenham      £114.00   £69.10   £57.60 Paddington to Chippenham     £89.00   £44.10   £32.60 Difference                            £25.00   £25.00   £25.00

HEX fare PAD to Heathrow without  Railcard   £25.00
Off peak express single         £22.00

It will be seen that the difference between Heathrow to Chippenham fares, and Paddington to Chippenham fares, are the same irrespective of the type of ticket held ie £25.00 without a railcard discount, and £16.50 with such a discount. Furthermore, these amounts are exactly the same as the peak fares on Heathrow Express, so this shows without any shadow of doubt that the fare element for the Heathrow to Paddington leg of the journey is being charged at peak rate, irrespective of what it should happen to say on the ticket about it being anytime, off peak or super off peak. Others are quite at liberty to check these findings with the BR fares website, or indeed to do similar comparisons with their home stations, but I would think it very unlikely indeed that the supplementary amounts for the Heathrow to Paddington legs are purely coincidental in the case of Chippenham only.

I therefore appear to have proved that Heathrow Express are totally in error to suggest that multi-TOC tickets that have the words off peak or super off peak written on them are not valid for travel on their trains before 0930.

Now I come to the final point of how this situation was allowed to arise in the first place. This is only speculation on my part of course, but I suspect that when Heathrow Express introduced their peak/off peak distinction last year, no-one ever bothered to consider the impact that this would have on multi-TOC tickets, the prices of which had been set some years before using the (then) only fare option between Heathrow and Paddington, a fare which is now the peak rate fare. This has resulted in HEX staff acting “correctly” in accordance with clause 3.4 of their conditions of carriage, and it is actually the clause 3.4 that needs to be amended to reflect the reality of the situation.

Finally, it came to light last night that my partner did actually book the ticket through the GWR website, so it is ultimately a problem that GWR will have to sort out because the contract she made was with them. And, incidentally, in their confirmatory email they included recommended trains to use, including (of course) HEX trains leaving Heathrow before 0930!

Is this perhaps a matter to bring to Mark Hopwood's attention if it hasn’t been sorted out by the time of the “meet the manager” session?

Worth noting that operational aspects of Heathrow Express are 'managed' by GWR.

Whilst retail, revenue and advertising remain with Heathrow Airport Holdings (t/a Heathrow Express) there could well be back channels between the two companies that can aid dealing with the fares issues. Longer distance fares flows, for instance, aren't priced by Heathrow Express. Chippenham to Heathrow is priced by GWR.

Presumably Heathrow has some agreement with RSP, a bit like the one for ticket retailers (which is available on line as a template (https://www.atoctravelagents.org/clientfiles/File/TPIL%20TEMPLATE%20JUNE%202018.pdf)). It would be a one-off, and need to deal with ticket acceptance on trains and as a station operator. I don't think they sell through tickets, in which case that could be left out.

That's what I hoped and thought, and that's why I effectively suggested it to GWR in my email to them of 4th July. See the last paragraph of my post on this thread on the same date, three posts up from here.

Indeed

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/hexpad.jpg)

Something has happened to make an update on this saga worthwhile. For those who haven't read the thread from the beginning, back in July my OH was refused access to the HEX platform at Heathrow T5 at 0845 after an overnight flight from Johannesburg, because she held an off peak ticket. I already knew, and carried out some research to prove, that multi-TOC tickets for the HEX element of a longer journey is already charged at HEX peak rate, so the company is acting incorrectly by refusing to allow such tickets to be used before 0930 on weekdays.

On 16th July I told HEX in writing that I wasn't happy with the outcome of my complaint (which they rejected), and wanted it escalated to stage 2 of their internal complaints procedure. I did not hear back from them at all (a cynic might say that stage 2 of their procedure involves ignoring the complainant for so long that they go away, but if it is they picked the wrong passenger in this case). At the end of July I contacted my MP about the matter and she wrote to the CEO of HEX on 14th August. I have yet to hear back from either of them.

Initially GWR tried to wash it's hands of the matter arguing that it was nothing to do with them because it was HEX policy that I was arguing about. I argued back saying that it was to do with them because they sold my OH the ticket so she has a contract with GWR not HEX, and also that the fare she paid was set by GWR. Again I didn't hear back from them so I was waiting the required 56 days before I raised the issue with the Rail Ombudsman.

Then on Thursday 12th September I got an email from GWR apologising for them taking so long to reply. They said that because the reply was so long in coming they were going to give a full refund of the fare paid (£45.60) and the cheque arrived a week later.

I am not one to look gift horses in their mouths but I really don't understand why they did this. We didn't ask for any refund or compensation - all we asked for was that senior GWR management contact senior HEX senior management pointing out the error in their current procedures (GWR and HEX had already been provided with copies of my research proving that I was right and they were wrong), and to persuade them to issue new instructions to staff.

What am I missing?

Putting my conspiracy theorist tin foil hat on, I might be tempted to conclude that some senior people within HEX and GWR have been having a dialogue, know that there's a problem, don't want to own up to it publicly because there could easily be a few thousand other passengers that this has happened to who will want a refund if it all comes out in the open, so are trying to buy me off. The rationale to back that up is that by sending a full refund, GWR have effectively cancelled the original contract as the original fare has now not been paid (ie refunded). But I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so I'm flummoxed...

_{Oddited for teepees}

Robin,  something makes me wonder if it's pragmatism rather that conspiracy.   It's probably already cost them a darned site more than £45.60 to investigate and reply, and would cost so much more once they were also answering the Rail Ombudsman - so much more practical to repay the fare (and apologise for the delay beyond specification as a reason for so doing) than to take it further.  Of course, you're (supposed to be) really happy to have had a free ride, and there's no need to make changes to the system at a time - err - when the who fare thing is (supposed to be) up in the air through RDG and Williams.

As I was reminded about this on another thread, here comes an update on this everyday story of arguing with TOCs  ;)

The story so far is all set out above, and the last time I posted on it I had received a cheque from GWR for a full refund of the OH's fare, and I had contacted my MP about the matter, who duly wrote to HEX. She got a reply from Les Freer (Business Lead Director) dated 22nd August. Unfortunately either the letter go lost in the post, or she sat on it for a month, because she didn't write to me until 18th September after I sent a chasing email.

As Mr Freer's letter runs to nearly two pages I won't type it all out verbatim, but will summarise it:

Paragraph 1 is the usual "thanks for your letter" stuff plus "Mr Summerhill raises a number of points that I will deal with in turn."

Para 2 is simply back slapping for the HEX complaints procedure.

Paras 3 and 4 explain how the national fares system works through the Product Management System. This confirms that the system works the way I thought it did but now I know what it's called and exactly how it works. Thank you for that information.

Para 5 is where the important information starts so I will type all of this out:

"When a customer buys a multi-TOC ticket, the lead operator of the journey decides the time restriction. In this case the lead operator was GWR which is why the ticket carried an off peak restriction. When a Heathrow Express ticket is bought as part of a multi-TOC journey, the only add-on from that is available is the £25 add-on".

Whilst that last sentence is rather short on grammatical sense we can get the gist of what he said. The lead operator sets the time restriction but the only add on for HEX is £25.00. And that just happens to be the peak rate HEX single fare. This of course confirms what my research had already revealed.

Para 6:
"The reason for this is that the only way the system will allow HEX to have multiple add-ons is if we as an operator enter into an agreement with every TOC in the country for every time restriction they have. While this is technically possible, it is practically unrealistic as it would involve creating a bespoke add-on for every permutation and combination of time restrictions within the UK. Therefore, HEX adopts a singular add-on of £25.00 when bought as a multi-TOC ticket. The only way around this is to buy separate tickets which your constituent's example would be a Heathrow to Paddington (HEX ticket) and an off peak Paddington to Chippenham GWR ticket. In your constituent's case, HEX colleagues did allow the passenger to travel on a peak train with an off peak ticket."

Personally I smell red herrings here. I agree that to get involved in multi-TOC agreements just so as to allow some passengers to travel for £3.00 less (the difference between HEX peak and off peak fares), I wasn't suggesting that. I was simply suggesting that, as HEX are getting their full  peak rate fare on all multi-TOC tickets, they should be allowing all passengers who hold such tickets to trave on any HEX  train. That doesn't need new complicated multi-TOC agreements. that just needs an email or a memo to be sent.

Para 7:
"In terms of issuing instructions to our colleagues to keep the fully aware of ticketing restrictions, we ensure that all our colleagues are trained to operate the gatelines safely whilst giving the best possible customer experience. Colleagues are regularly informed of any changes to the time restrictions or ticket types. There will be certain occasions when colleagues come across unknown situations at which point they would give the benefit of the doubt tp the passenger as happened in this case, wherein initially the customer was informed of the ticketing restrictions but was subsequently welcomes on board in the peak times even though the ticket carried an off peak restriction".

So there we have it. In summary, HEX agree that they are taking a peak rate cut on all multi-TOC tickets, but appear to be putting the blame on the other operators ie. "its not up to us Guv, the other operator says its an off peak ticket and we don't accept off peak tickets for peak hour trains." They also appear to be congratulating themselves for "leniency" in allowing her to use the ticket on a peak hour train, and for which she had paid the peak rate to HEX.

Personally I don't think that that argument stands up to close scrutiny. The next stage will be to see if London Travelwatch agrees with Les Freer or me...

Thank you for taking the time to write an update Robin.

UK rail fares. Simples eh? :-X

Well it's been a long time coming, but the case was finally resolved today in my favour.

All the details about my ongoing saga with HEX over them refusing to allow an off peak ticket to be used before 0930, when they in fact get exactly he same cut of a multi-TOC ticket fare, irrespective on what time of day it is, appears earlier in the thread.

I referred the matter to London Travelwatch back in October, and I understand they then forwarded it to the Rail Delivery Group. London Travelwatch finally responded with the resolutuin earlier today, copied and pasted below:

Dear Robin

I’m pleased to let you know I’ve now had a response from Heathrow Express and I wanted to share it with you.

Until today Heathrow Express has believed that off-peak tickets that include a journey with a train operator can’t be used until after 9.30am. Having had a conversation with the Rail Delivery Group (who are the group that bring together the different train companies) I was sure they were wrong but needed the evidence. To this end I received an email from the Rail Delivery Group this morning, which I passed to Heathrow Express and their Head of Pricing and Technology agreed that their belief was wrong. I’ve been assured that all staff will be updated with this information and they’ve asked I pass on their apologies to you and, especially to Ms Lewis for her experience when travelling.

Many thanks for bringing this issue to our attention and I’m glad I’ve been able to help.
 
Regards

Mags Croucher
Casework Officer

So sometimes persistence pays off  ;D

Have the TOC been made to give you a penalty payment of say £80, for their mistake ?
Penalty payments should work both ways.

A nice idea, but if you look back through the thread you will see that GWR gave her a full refind of the fare paid, so in effect have cancelled the contract and already compensated her quite nicely.

However, there is an ironic twist to all this. I am due to arrive back at Heathrow from Cape Town on a Tuesday morning shortly.in the "dreaded peak." Not being happy with having to pay HEX full whack for a ticket to Paddington I looked around for ways around their policy.

Back in early January I got an Advance LHR to PAD ticket out of them, WITH NO TIME RESTRICTION, for £7.50 and will buy whatever GWR ticket that is appropriate when I get to PAD. So it turns out that their arguing the toss about off peak ticket validity prior to 0930 has cost them £9.00 (their normal cut of amulti-TOC ticket with Railcard being £16.50)

They have also managed to get one very unhappy customer (despite yesterday's "win"), who will be doing all he can in future to target fare avoidance (rather than evasion) at HEX whenever he gets half a chance.

Funny old world, innit?  :)

Well done Sir for sticking with this.

Not certain a refund is sufficient.
If a passenger makes a mistake and does not have a valid ticket, they may be liable to a penalty fare, often of £80, in addition to the fare.
In this case, the TOC made a mistake, and should in my view be required be required to pay say £80 to the victim, in addition to refunding the fare.

Saw this in the #Head for Points# weekly newsletter https://www.headforpoints.com/
(apologies to member broadgage as it is about flying and hotel deals and reviews, etc).

Using railcards on Heathrow Express
https://www.headforpoints.com/2022/08/07/use-railcards-on-heathrow-express-trains/

and Stanstead Express (out of our region I appreciate)
https://www.headforpoints.com/2022/08/29/how-to-use-a-railcard-on-stansted-express/

I don’t think the Stansted Express service should be still be called an Express service anymore considering it now stops at 3 or 4 stations along the route. Previously used to stop at just Tottenham Hale for the Victoria Line which made sense. Now other stations have been added, it’s not very ‘express’ IMHO.