Great Western Coffee Shop

From the Liverpool Echo (https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/real-reason-new-merseyrail-trains-16533191)

Passenger and Train Operator responses to lack of toilets on new trains.

Same with Taplow 387s with loos being replaced by 345s without from Shenfield to Reading!

And the new DC EMUs serving south east London also have no toilets, progress of course but still regrettable.

The stranding incident at Lewisham demonstrated the desirability of toilets even on short journeys. One needs to consider not just the planned journey time, but also delays.

To be fair, when I commuted  from SE London in the 60s, we didn't have such facilities, and didn't expect them. i doubt if the significant delays these days are much worse than the situation then. On a short commuter service I'd rather have another row of seats.

Hmmm...

Vomiting is usually an involuntary action and often comes without warning, so I'm not sure that having toilets on Merseyrail services would be a solution. That stuff would still be coming up if the toilet was occupied, and we no longer even have the emergency solution of heading for a droplight any more.

As regards the other aspect of antisocial behaviour, I'm not sure that a toilet is going to help much with that either.

The timing of all this, 5 minutes into a journey starting at 2155. might be significant, especially if the puker had had a skinful.

In fact this tale might be telling us more about deficiencies in certain Liverpudlians than it is telling us about deficiencies in Merseyrail's facilities...

I also remember suburban commuter services without toilets being generally satisfactory, however I do not feel that todays conditions are comparable.
Firstly, almost all stations then had toilets, so passengers only had to be able to wait for the actual train journey. These days a 30 minute train journey might be preceded by a 15 minute wait for a bus to the station, a 30 minute bus ride and then a 30 minute wait for the train. Much longer without relief than is suggested by the train timings. In the old days, the passenger could have used the station toilet  shortly before departure.

Secondly, modern trains with locked doors are a decided drawback in case of prolonged delay. Back in the old days of slam door trains, men at least could and did wee out of an open door. And of course people could alight and relieve themselves on the trackside. Far preferable to todays policy of "keep them on the trains no matter what" and if some unfortunates are forced to soil themselves, well that is just one of those things.

Finally it seems to me that large scale delays ARE increasing. Modern trains seem more complex and less reliable.
I do not recall a DC slam door suburban unit EVER breaking down. And of course back in the old days a failed train was easily hauled or propelled out of the way, we now have a rule that each batch of new trains must be incompatible with the existing fleet.
And of course these days we have large scale signal failures that close major London termini. Those hoping to LEAVE the London terminal can use the station facilities. But about those delayed for hours on inbound trains?

All good points Broadgauge. Things have certainly changed in the last 50 years!

I think it’s probably a good thing that men can no longer wee out of an open door.  Not exactly a pleasant site and a very sexist policy.   ;)

Hardly the correct way to proceed under any normal circumstances, but arguably preferable to p!ssing on the floor and wetting oneself as many did in the Lewisham fiasco.
I have only done it once ! Any offence caused is regretted, but better out of the door than inside the train. (local train delayed by hours due to a bomb alert)

But beware the third rail ... could be a nasty way to go.

Looking at more modern solutions, perhaps emergency inflatable toilets, such as those you can get for camping, could be provided on trains without loos, stored with the other emergency equipment?  A private area on the train (perhaps in the inactive cab) could then be used as an emergency facility by both men and women offering a degree of privacy and a safe environment?
 

Most of these contrivances consist ONLY of an inflatable or folding tent, not any container for the waste. An Elsan closet or equivalent would be needed in addition. These have a very limited capacity and soon become overfull if used by a crowd.

If you had a couple of them onboard, the ones with containers, like this one https://www.quakekare.com/portable-folding-toilet-p-34 wouldn’t that probably be enough, even in Lewisham style events?  After all, only a small percentage on the train were unable to wait.  Just an idea as retrofitting all trains is not an option.

The RAIB report on Lewisham did mention emergency toilets, and the ATOC/NR guidance note "Meeting the Needs of Passengers when Trains are Stranded" (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&ved=2ahUKEwiN3dvv0KXjAhUSWsAKHdjXDPUQFjAAegQIARAC&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.rssb.co.uk%2Frgs%2Foodocs%2Fatocnr%2520gn%2520sp01%2520iss%25203.pdf&usg=AOvVaw2gX9IxC4VZJ8U2oNccTfbP) has a bit more on that. It has more to say about how to keep modern toilets at least usable when electricity, water, or retention tank space runs out. A further point how to make such emergency supplies or manual override available in DOO trains, and if they are set up for passenger use in emergencies how they are protected from "inappropriate use" for years before being needed.

This is suspected to be an urban myth, though I would not wish to try it just in case. Only if the urine formed a solid stream could the current be conducted into the person. In practice the liquid breaks up into droplets with insulating air gaps between.
As an example, it is safe to stand under high voltage overhead lines (national grid or railway equipment) in the heaviest of rain storms due to the gaps between rain drops.
To direct a solid jet of water at such equipment from firefighting or irrigation equipment would be unwise.

And from the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-wales-49749161/no-toilet-trains-dehumanising-for-bowel-disease-commuter) ... current trains in The Valleys have toilets, but new trains will not.  The Link is to a video which describes the problems people with certain medical conditions will have.

So that's trains without toilets where previously trains had toilets in Liverpool, from London to Reading, and now coming to South Wales.

We have moved on from "what improvements can we make" and towards "what downgrades can we get away with"

When the inevitable strandings occur, a train without toilets needs to be treated as an EMERGENCY and not just as another delay.
IMHO, evacuation should be considered after 30 minutes and be mandatory after 60 minutes, for downgraded trains without toilets.
For proper trains with toilets, seats for all, and reasonable conditions, these times can be extended.

The current fleet of Merseyrail trains, Class 507/8, don’t have toilets either, so there’s no ‘downgrade’ in this case.

The first post in this thread states that the existing trains have toilets, but that the new trains wont have toilets.
That sounds like a downgrade to me.

Nonsense. The news item quoted states the opposite:

... and then ignores that and goes on as if the lack is something new. makes better copy, I guess.

The material about how why and whether the new trains should have introduced toilets is all valid, of course.

Indeed.  As I've stated before I think all new trains should have at least one toilet, but the article does not say the existing trains have toilets - indeed there are no less than three quotes in the original post from people bemoaning the lack of toilets on recent journeys.  The new trains aren't expected to enter service for several months!  ;)

I see that the Merseyside Rail spokesperson quoted in the first post on this thread says that the majority of their stations have bathroom facilities available for all customers to use.

Is that true? I find it difficult to believe.

I have travelled a bit on their system, but not extensively, and apart from the termini, I don't recall ever having seen a toilet at any intermediate station.

Looking at the wider picture, would that statement hold up for the whole rail service? I'm sure it wouldn't, in fact I'm certain that only a small minority of stations have toilets available for passengers at any time, and that most stations, which are unmanned, have no toilets available. This is certainly the case more locally where I live.

I suspect that nationally, that a lot of stations have toilets available IN THEORY but that in practice these are temporarily out of use due to staff shortage, vandalism, or breakdowns.

A classic case was the old Kings Cross Thameslink station. When this opened there was considerable criticism from customers whose trains had previously left from a "proper station" with station facilities, but that now left from a downgraded station with no facilities.
Toilets were duly provided, but almost never open.

Indeed ... even if all stations had/have toilets, will they be available throughout train operating hours and even for 10 minutes after the last train for people arriving?

I would take issue with "all trains should have toilets" (earlier posts) for very short runs such as Cardiff Queen Street to Cardiff Bay, and Stourbridge Junction to Town.   Also perhaps Slough to Windsor (if loos available at both ALL THE TIME) and Waterloo to Bank.

Many local bus (or metro/underground) services take up to an hour, either in congested cities, or for inter-urban journeys.  I really don't understand why a toilet is deemed essential for local train journeys of a similar travel time, but not for a bus.

In my opinion, mainly because of the risk of being stranded on a train following an incident such as a fatality or power outage.  Such a scenario is very unlikely to play out on a bus. 

Perhaps a small cubicle could be provided for use in an emergency instead of full toilet facilities.  It would usually be locked but staff could open it for passenger use in an emergency scenario, and it would take up a very small amount of space.  The most basic of facilities dumping straight onto the track needing no or very little power so it would work when there is no power supply to the train.  I know dumping waste onto the track is now banned, even though use of it would only be when a train is at a stand, and it would probably contravene disability and hygiene regulations so it will never happen, but just a thought!

It is not IMO the NORMAL journey time that is the issue, but the abnormal.
If a bus is badly delayed, then one may alight and use the toilet in nearby premises, or as a VERY LAST RESORT* relieve oneself in the street.
If a train is stranded, as in the Lewisham debacle, then with the "keep them on the trains no matter what" policy conditions will become very unpleasant. Reports from the Lewisham incident state many passengers wet themselves and some soiled themselves.
Toilets are therefore essential even for short journeys, to cater for fatalities, wires down, ice, signaling failures and other entirely foreseeable out of course events.
Toilets are also required for local trains for when the train inevitably gets used on a longer route "better the wrong train than no train"

*I stress that I AM NOT advocating public urination, or still worse defecation, under any ordinary conditions. However in an emergency, to lower ones clothes and squat at the side of the road  is preferable to soiling oneself on a crowded train.

You paint such a beautiful picture with words...………...

I'm not sure I buy the argument that local trains should have the cost and capacity reduction of a toilet (including the ongoing energy cost of carrying it and water around all the time, and the cost of maintenance, etc), simply for the very rare eventuality that a service is stranded between stations for longer than people can cross their legs or clench their buttocks. On the valley lines stations are about every 3 minutes apart, and TfW has said that several intermediate stations will also have toilets. 

I prefer the emergency kit idea, similar to the hampers of food that used to be carried on Highland trains in the winter in case they ran into a snowdrift, though with climate change it's probably a flood that trains will run into these days. (In Wales the kits would have a Welsh cake, laverbread toastie and a can of Brains SA, all labelled bilingually of course.)   

None of the other UK tram networks have toilets - I don't recall an uproar of complaints in Manchester or Nottingham about it, and the journey times are only around 10 minutes less from the extremities than from the apparently incontinent heads of the valleys.

I'm not sure that anyone is in a better position on a bus either if I'm honest. Oh hang on, stuck in an unusually long traffic jam in the morning rush hour in the city suburbs and caught short? Pubs not open, no shops nearby so just ask the driver to open the doors, pop and poop outside and hop back on. Hope you've got your doggie poop bag handy for such an eventuality.

My local station has a toilet but is only open during the hours the ticket office is open. Which is Mon - Fri 6.40am to 12 Midday & Saturday 9am - 12 Midday but if you want to use it you have to ask for the key at the ticket office. I have never needed to use it during those times so cannot provide a review. Unfortunately I have needed to use it outside of those times. Fortunately the station is next to the common with plenty of trees. Unfortunately it is very muddy at the moment.  :'(