Great Western Coffee Shop

Hosted by Extinction Rebellion (https://rebellion.earth/event/summer-uprising-act-now-bristol-occupation-by-xr-southwest/)


And concern as to the effect on transport ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/xrbs.jpg)

A screen capture - as an educated guess from the First Bus staff newsletter; if anyone can confirm source and provide a link that would be good.    It's been shared on Facebook with a plea to customers "don't take it out on our drivers if your bus service is disrupted".

More details here: https://xrbristol.org.uk/actions/project-mushroom/

According to Bristol! Live! Post! they will have a thousand people turning up, of whom 300 are prepared to be arrested.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/we-plan-cause-disruption-300-3077825

That sounds like a lot of people but presumably not all of them will be turning up every day, and of course you've got to make an allowance for "sign up optimism".

A lot of spoiled selfish brats who couldn't care less about preventing people going about their daily lives.   We all know about climate change and steps being taken and they have made their point already..

Coming up to the summer holidays when parents might introduce their children to the bus for the first time and could be put off for life if they sample the disruption. All sounds counterproductive.

Oh, I think most schools break up the week after. Either way, it may put off potential regulars.

There may be some - or even a lot - like that.   But there are some - or a lot - who do care.  Perhaps passionately, perhaps not totally informed (but then none of us is) and perhaps not really knowing what to do about moving the planet forward such that it's saved for future generations.

I am struck by Greta Thunberg on the front cover of Time Magazine.  And I'm struck by her on the front cover of RailFuture's magazine Railwatch too.  And whilst she's far from the total voice of Extinction Revolution she's a young person looking to the future on our planet and suggesting that we have to move to much more sustainable transport as just one of the steps to be taken.

RailFuture is a group of old men (sorry if you're a reader who's is a RailFuture member and exceptional by being young or female) and yet they have chosen to put her on the front cover.  There is the issue - on this forum, at Rail user Groups, at RailFuture of how we engage with that generation that will be there and passionately want a planet to be available to them, and of quality.  I find it hopeful that the various groups of mostly old men are looking and saying "we think in a similar direction".   They are also asking "how do we engage" and if you, dear reader, can tell me - either for railfuture or for the forum - please do.

Oh great, another demonstration on Castle Green. It's getting a bit silly now - zero carbon emissions by 2025? For crying out loud, might as well campaign for something else completely impossible, like the return of dinosaurs, a live pet unicorn for every transgender schoolperson, or a Labour victory in the next general election. Not only that, they are campaigning against building public transport that will use renewable energy. (Alright, HS2 if the accountants sign the right electricity contracts). And I bet there'll be drums. Loads of drums. I used to like drums - think Ringo Starr, Michael Shrieve, Carl Palmer, Ken Pustelnik, Dominic Howard, Charlie Watts, some of many great beaters of drums - but these days you are more likely to see a line of angry drummers in dreadlocks, blocking a road and complaining about something.

I hope it rains, that will help. I shan't be around anyway, I've got important work of my own to do. I'm busy offsetting my last holiday by chopping down trees and burning them. I think I know what I'm doing.

Dear Boris,
                 Please can you loan us some of your water cannon that we can use in Bristol next week ? Have the protestors not noticed how their actions will literally backfire when Bristol emissions go through the roof next week..... caused by the undoubted gridlock that they will cause by their protests......

I've always thought of this forum as a place for well-informed, intelligent debate. When did that change? Did I miss a memo?

That may happen when the protesters (and not just their poster child) present well-informed intelligent arguments as reason for their protest. Many will just be there in a misguided attempt to stick it 'to the man'.

And decrying their actions and disagreeing with their methods doesn't automatically make one less well-informed or lacking intelligence.

Did I miss the memo about only one viewpoint being valid?

Campaign for the impossible, achieve the possible and make it look like a reasonable victory for everyone. Standard tactics in all sorts of negotiations, surely?

Has anyone suggested that only one viewpoint is valid? Not me! It's how some of these views have been expressed that should concern all of us.

You've made your point clearly without insulting anyone, or advocating violence or sounding phobic dogwhistles. Others here have sunk to depths which surprise me.

No longer in London. Sold at a loss. UK Government would not allow them to be used.

Yes. It was the one on The Brexit Party headed notepaper ;)

They were in Plymouth last week, and did one of their ridiculous "die-ins" in the middle of a busy shopping centre. I was proud that the good citizens of my home town just carried on as usual, walking around (and in some cases over) the prostrate "corpses" (whom, it was noted, were mostly equipped with the sort of electronic gadgetry which is itself helping to bleed the World dry)

My tongue in cheek suggestion about using Boris' water cannons, was not to use them on the protestors, who might object that getting wet might be an infringement of their civil liberties, but instead use the water to dampen down the more noxious emissions from the cars, vans, buses and lorries that are held up by their protests!

Getting back to normality, I read through the demands in the link provided by my learned friend Red Squirrel, and found that I agreed with one, maybe two, disagreed vehemently with a couple more, thought at least one was impossible, and haven't formed an opinion on the rest.

Except one - the demand to remove the ban on onshore windfarms. This shows they haven't done their homework properly, because there is no ban on new onshore wind power. Government policy since the last election but one has been to allow new wind turbines anywhere in England where they have the support of the local community. The problem faced by the foreign companies who own what is left of our power generation capacity is that they haven't been able to find a rural community that really wants a 300-foot tall bat mincer behind the Saxon church and rows of picturesque (pronounced picture-skew) cottages and tea shops. In the days when the likes of nPower, EDF and the rest were throwing them up as fast as they could, the planning process typically took seven years, it taking that long to be rejected at every level of the system before getting an inspector to give the nod at a Public Inquiry. It wouldn't be worth the effort if the decision lay in the hands of the people who would be affected by it, so they have gone and covered Scotland with them instead. Presumably, then, one of the points of the demonstration is to call for an end to local democracy in rural communities to allow unbridled access by offshore companies?

Also, if I were James Freeman, managing director of First West of England buses, I would take umbrage at having my company's usual advertising format and my name hijacked for a spoof flyer that is likely to be taken as genuine by quite a few people. Not that he can do much about it, I suppose, but I hope there are contingency plans in place to reroute buses, or turn them back outside the Centre rather than just have them all lined up patiently as usually happens.

Just kick them out of the way.

I have considerable sympathy with the aims of the Extinction Rebellion protests.
And as previously discussed, disrupting public transport seems very counter-productive.

A while ago I met some of the protestors in the pub, they were undoubtedly very passionate and committed but not perhaps well informed.
Considerable sympathy with the French "yellow vest" protests was expressed, with calls to work together. The Extinction Rebellion crowd seemed most perplexed when I explained that the French protesters are on "the other side" Two of their demands being cheaper road fuel in order that people can afford to burn more of it, and higher speed limits in order that more French men may can drive further and faster and use yet more fuel.

Many of the Extinction Rebellion supporters seemed ignorant of basic science. I refer here not to differences of opinion but to ignorance of basic physical facts.

I wonder if it's basic science the XR crowd are ignorant of or other groups' opinions? I haven't spoken to them so I don't know, but maybe they're assuming that because the YVs are protesting against their government, they must have some kinship of demands with the XRs? A conflation of ideas on both sides: government, big capitalism, the military-industrial complex, etc, on one side and "the people" or "the little man" protesting for peace, love and a greener planet on the other. (Similar conflations might have been made eg by Western governments and media at the time of the Arab Spring – and numerous other places and times and people.)

So far, the only certain discoveries I have made is that they are for mass transit which isn't powered by fossil fuel, but against all-electric HS2. That, and for repealing a ban that has never existed. Apart from those, it all seems a bit vague.

Some of those whom I met were ignorant of basic science.

1 Several believed that someone has invented a car engine that runs on water and that the wicked oil companies buried the invention and/or murdered the inventor. Nonsense ! basic science shows that water at room temperature contains no useful energy.

2 Others believed that the national grid "loose half of the electricity due to leaks" Nonsense ! the actual losses are about 10% and are a mixture of unavoidable resistance losses in conductors and unavoidable magnetic losses in transformer cores. Together with incidental losses such as energy consumed by pumps, fans, battery chargers, controls, and instruments.

3 And various long standing urban myths regarding electricity in general and key meters in particular.

Good to see you put those cynics and conspiracy theorists in their place, Broadgage.  ;)

Greta has been described as having been brainwashed.

I wouldn't know, but as she speaks at least one foreign language, she is probably better educated than the chaps broadgage ran into in the pub.


Once you point out that losses are much lower at higher voltages because that means a lower current and the losses are proportionate to the product of the cross-sectional surface of the conductor and the current as any fule kno, they usually thank you, and move to another table.

I for one like key meters. I mean, if everybody took out dual fuel deals paid by direct debit, and changed suppliers at the end of each tariff deal, I would probably have to pay more.

I should think that "XR" feel quite fortunate that they have the British police to deal with rather than "YV" who have to find the courage to go toe to toe with the CRS.

Following this part of the conversation, Broadgage then proceeded to make the case for having of a buffet car on every GWR IET.

[pedantmode=on]
depends what height it is at - Hydro-electricity
[/pedantmode]

That ellendune has potential!


Do I need to put these in the Acronyms/Abbrevs (never liked spelling that one in full) list? If so, should Compagnies Républicaines de Sécurité be in French? Mind you, I've messed with Co-operative Retail Services before, and come to regret it.

If it helps I once worked for CWS. Cooperative Wholesale Society. Got my forklift licence with them. My only adult experience driving a 100% electric vehicle.

Don't think my kid sister's ride on Barbie convertible counts.

I think you meant to say "accused". But people are making all sorts of vile attacks on  her, in preference to dealing with her arguments.

I had a girlfriend who lived in the WCA building, which is Western Counties Agricultural association. Down by the bridge that seems to be called Bascule Bridge, I've never quite known why. But that was a long time ago and doesn't need to go in the acronyms and abbreviations!

A bascule bridge is simply one that lifts up. There are many bridges that once were bascule bridges but no longer need to lift and these may have been replaced with a standard bridge.  They name, however may have remained. 

I also think a key feature of a bascule bridge is that there’s some sort of counterbalance involved. 

Paul

She doesn't deserve to be attacked, it's good to see young people being engaged with something other than a smartphone and/or social media, but boy, she does look like Wednesday from the Addams family!  :)

She also doesn't deserve to have her looks made fun of.

#MeNeither. But it happens.

Being the poster boy / girl for anything contentious is not a comfortable place to be, especially in this day of social media and polarisation. It does rather bring us back to the issue that having a teenage girl, pretty or not, being the face that launches a thousand tweets is no substitute for the proper science-based discussion that the modern world needs to have. One gains the impression that whatever great leap forward we make, even if we did end all world carbon dioxide emissions by 2025 using something other than clever accounting procedures, it still wouldn't be enough for some, though. Not just in matters of pollution and climate change, but throughout politics, the protest is becoming more important than the thing being protested about. Start a bandwagon, see who jumps on it, then see if there's still room for you.

Saying that someone looks like someone else does not constitute making fun of them.

According to an American who, like me, spends some time in Cape Town during the winter, I look like an electrician in Boston, Mass.

According to another American who was one of the footplate staff on Union Pacific 844 at Ogden Utah back in May, I look like somebody  he knows involved with USA steam preservation. Ogden is of course some 1500 miles from Boston.

Forget just a bike - my father must have had a boat as well...  ;D

Not even when the celebrities are Nigel Farage and Kermit?  ;D

As my late father used to say: "Your face reminds me of my mother's, behind."

Indeed ... I can being called 'names' - likened to someone famous - twice in the street. And (but I suspect it's a personal thing) I felt strangely positive.  Having some youth / yob shouting "loser" at Lisa upset me more than it upset her.

Are we unusual in being called names / compared in the street, or does it happen to everyone?

In my case, more than once, Louis Balfour from the Fast Show (nice!) 🙂

Apparently I look like an aerosol can. At least I think that's what they say!

If I were you I'd keep a lid on that.

So it was a humourless statement? Why the smiley then?

Say to Greta Thunberg that she looks like an emotionless, bitter and sadistic comic strip character and I doubt she'll find it amusing.

Statement from Avon & Somerset Police:

https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/news/2019/07/protest-to-take-place-in-bristol-city-centre-next-week/

Taking a wider look than this thread, and our variety of views on disruption and effect, I have posted at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/21904 to look at how engagement / partnership / support / co-operation between groups with common interest might / should work.

Hang on  a minute there!

We have had engines that run on water since the early 18th century, and they were indeed used in cars in the first 30 or so years of the 20th century.

It's the warming it up enough to turn it into steam to make any use of it that is the root of the problem...

A humourous point - with a bit of science hidden in it. Water there is the propellant, not the fuel, of course. There are other non-fuel fuels, such as electricity and hydrogen. Neither is truly a fuel, because both have to be created using external energy sources. They are forms of storage of energy, and the distinction is an important one in some contexts.

Or to re-word my earlier post to allow for pedantry.

Water at room temperature and in, or on a vehicle contains no useful energy. It can not be used to propel the vehicle.

This despite the fairly widely held view that some clever person invented a car engine that ran on water. And that the wicked oil companies buried the invention and/or murdered the inventor.

I am well aware of hydroelectric power, but that is not a "car engine that runs on water"
Steam power is a well known technology and can be applied to cars. It requires coal, oil, or other fuel to raise steam, and is not a vehicle driven by an engine that burns water.

The less well informed protestors believe this and other related nonsense.
There are websites promoting various perpetual motion devices and free energy devices "buy now before the fat cat utility companies ban this device"

And of course certain hydrogen nuclei found in water can be fused to release energy but this leading edge of science and technology is currently having billions spent on it's research rather than being suppressed.

I think that splits the wrong hair. A vehicle's fuel is whatever you put in it to make it go, whether you dug it up, stored sunbeams, or made it from something else. The kind of liquid hydrocarbons that are most useful in IC engines on the road and in the air can be made from petrol, both as feedstock and processing energy source, but the same or similar stuff can be made from CO₂ in the air using electricity. OK it's not at all efficient just now, but they are working on it (in Canada, oddly).

Quite by chance, what pops up in my inbox today but this (from the IET: Engineering & Technology (https://eandt.theiet.org/content/articles/2019/07/h2o-on-the-go-fuelling-the-future-of-sustainable-vehicles/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_campaign=New%20EandT%20News%20-%20Automation%20FINAL%20-%20MEMBER&utm_medium=Newsletters%20-%20E%26T%20News&utm_content=E%26T%20News%20-%20Members&utm_term=https%3A%2F%2Feandt.theiet.org%2Fcontent%2Farticles%2F2019%2F07%2Fh2o-on-the-go-fuelling-the-future-of-sustainable-vehicles%2F)):

Bring it on EVERYDAY. Traffic in Central Bristol very light today. Walked from my central location along a near deserted Baldwin Street to Bristol Bridge. Very polite protesters. Police well back basking in the sunshine with nothing to do.

South Gloucestershire Council did their up most to disrupt traffic by coning off the inside lane in both directions from the Willy Wicket Roundabout to the M32 Hambrook roundabout just to strim the last 100 metres of the westbound verge, why couldn't it be done at night cos it caused 1/2 hour delay to my bus this am.

Send money now!

Before the wicked fat cat oil companies bury the secret and kill the inventers.

Caveat emptor !..

I have several much better money making ideas.

Ostriches for sale------------huge profits absolutely certain.
Perpetual motion machine for sale.
Time share holiday flats.
Purchase of postal vouchers that can later be sold for many times the purchase price.
Buy me a dozen Pullman meals, and I will think of something even better.

You may joke, but one guy made a lot of money out of of ostriches in southern Africa ...

It relied on a protectionist law and a peculiarity of political geography that had to be rectified as a hangover of [British] colonialism.

South Africa would not allow the export of live ostriches or viable eggs out of South Africa to protect their ostrich market based largely around the southern Cape Province town of Oudtshoorn . It had been thus since ostriches had been bred mainly for their feathers than their meat. It was the late 1980's and Namibian independence was inevitable - but yet officially denied - it being a League of Nations mandate (post WW1 and decried in the UN) but there was a colonial legacy buried within.

Walvis (whale) Bay had been a British enclave within German Südwes Afrika and in the 1920s was gifted by the British to South Africa.  It was thus separate from their LoN mandate - legally and part of the greater RSA.

In the late 1980's, an enterprising farmer from Walvis Bay bought a herd of ostriches and had them transported to his farm in the coastal desert that best describes that African suburb, and spent a fortune on water and fodder to keep them alive. Their journey was legal because Walvis Bay was South African territory proper.

First came Namibian independence and then South Africa's rainbow revolution; and Nelson Mandela was elected to be president of this reborn nation*. As an act of brotherly love for his friend Sam Ndjouma of Namibia, Mandela righted the wrong of colonial history and ceded Walvis Bay to Namibia. Along with it went a large herd of ostrich and a very happy, and may I say it, very prescient ostrich farmer.

His herd of legally 'exported' South African ostriches was now worth a fortune on the global market. Paid back all his fodder and water in spades. In life sometimes, you just have to see the angle - and have faith. I raise my hat ...

* my wife and I spent 7 hours between us voting in that historic event.

I was thinking of a relatively recent ostrich farming scam in the UK, but there has obviously been more than one !
And BTW I do know someone who keeps ostriches, a modest profit may be made thereby, but certainly not a quick way to get rich.

Meanwhile Bristol is still standing AFAIK. Disruption has been largely confined to a motorway and a shopping center so far. Better than directly targeting trains as happened on the DLR in London.

I think that the "die ins" are a bit silly, but they make good news pictures and videos which is no doubt the intention.

Ostrich meat is widely eaten and is far healthier and environmentally friendly that beef with all the methane and other by products which are produced through cattle farming.

I'm tempted to suggest that as part of his Q & A in a few weeks Mark Hopwood should be asked to replace fillet steak with Ostrich steak on the Pullman menu - I am sure this would be universally applauded as a contribution both GWR and its customers can make to improving the environment for our children?

(I am prepared perform a "die in" at Taplow station should that become necessary on this important principle. If anyone cares to join me please let me know and I'll bring extra shrouds) 

Looks like TG is going to keep pecking away at this one, Broadgage.   ;)

Certainly not my intention to give anyone the bird, or ruffle feathers unduly.

A friend of mine's teenage daughter(and previous XR participant) looks like she's missing todays protest as she's only just flown back from her second holiday on the Med this month and is understandably a bit tired today. Tomorrow perhaps?

"Sorry I'm late for the protest against air travel. Jet lag..."

I suspect that many of the protesters have not really thought things through properly.
To achieve their aims of zero net carbon in only a few years will require not making aircraft "greener" or  "cleaner" but simply prohibiting all air travel apart from the trivial numbers of short range and small electric planes, and the even smaller numbers of other alternatives.
And of course prohibiting petrol and diesel vehicles, and banning most domestic heating.

Does she know Emma Thompson?

I went down to look at the Bristol Bridge blockade yesterday. There was a nice, cheerful, calm atmosphere and I was impressed by the evident good relations between the protesters and the police, as well as the lack of aggro from drivers – in part due to the police setting up their own roadblocks at strategic points which allowed drivers a chance to turn and take alternative routes, as well as acting as a buffer zone. Two things which I hadn't expected where the numbers attending from elsewhere (I was approached by two elderly ladies from Exeter who, for some reason, thought I was also from Devon  ???) and the amount of tents put up in Castle Park.  Evidently a lot of people who've come from elsewhere are here for the whole five days. I also noted a wide age range, from teens to the aforementioned elderly ladies.

You should take being mistaken for someone from God's own county as the highest form of flattery!

Day 2. Traffic in Central Bristol very light again today. Detoured from my central location via College Green. Caught the tail end of Billy Braggs appearance. Witnessed a few of their stop the traffic antics which stopped the traffic for about 5 minutes at a time including one which was interrupted by a blue light incident. For this the escorting police ushered them to safety for the vehicles passing and then allowed the protest to continue and as a result many bystanders applauded which included dozens attending the UWE Graduation Ceremonies taking place at the nearby Bristol Cathedral. Again very polite protesters and police well back basking in the shade of the trees on College Green with next to nothing to do, the only officers I would say were doing any work was the two motor cycle escorts leading the drum parade from Castle Park to College Green where XR assembled to hear Billy Bragg.

Also an owner of one of their black and white stickers on my backpack, is that a plus ?.

There was a brief mention of the protests on page 15 of my national paper today, with a photo of two fairly pretty young ladies to illustrate the reasons for the protest.

In re Castle Park, I hope they don't leave in the same state as College Green was left a few years back after another protest about something which eludes me for the moment. Tories probably. They used the place as a campsite and a toilet for days on end, then threw a bag of grass seed on the resultant bare earth, and said it would be okay. It wasn't - it cost thousands, the sort of money that would build a council house, or keep a library open, or pay for business class tickets to Kuala Lumpur for a fact-finding delegation.

That was "Occupy Bristol" IIRC. I think they were there for nearer a month than five days, and Castle Park is a less... manicured... sort of grass to start with, so hopefully it'll still be in good state after five days underneath some tents. After all, plenty of campsites get tented over for several months at a stretch and seem to survive. As for toilets, I don't know. The Galleries is nearby. I sincerely hope they're not shitting on the grass but if they are, let's face it, they won't be the first.  >:(

Reports state that the protesters have erected a composting toilet.
Such facilities mix the human waste with sawdust, dried leaves, grass cuttings, chopped straw or similar materials. The mixture composts and makes excellent fertiliser.
This takes a lot longer than 5 days, so hopefully the protesters will remove the only partly composted waste.

I know of a campsite that uses composting toilets with success. Such facilities if used continually have to be duplicated, one toilet in use and another that is full and slowly composting without any new waste being added. The composted waste is said to be inoffensive and safe to handle, No flushing water or drainage system is needed.

Much greener than an Elsan closet or similar and cheaper and greener than the portaloos often used.

I would be happy to enjoy ostrich steak instead of beef in the Pullman or indeed elsewhere. Provided that it was of good quality and in a reasonable portion size.
Ostrich meat does not seem to be sold very widely.

The Botanical Gardens in Bristol have installed a couple of composting toilets which use ventilation towers to ensure a continuous through-flow of air, which speeds up the composting process, but I can't remember how much by. I guess a problem with all composting toilets – as with flushing ones – is that people will put inorganic matter in them.

Story being reported on radio Bristol that a man has called in to say he'd received a call to say his fathers health and taken a turn for the worse and he should get there as soon as he could
He got delayed in the long jams on the M4 / M32 into Bristol this morning because of these idiots chained to a bath
Arrived at the hospital a few minutes after his father passed away !!

A tall vertical ventilating pipe or tower is almost essential for a composting toilet for several reasons.

1) A steady supply of fresh air assists the composting.
2) Excess moisture evaporates
3) Foul air is removed to above head height.
4) Flies are killed. The waste tends to attract flies, these pests tend to go up the vent pipe attracted by the daylight at the top. Fine mesh covering the top of the vent prevents escape of the flies, which then die and fall into the waste.
For this to work, the interior of the toilet should be dark in order that the flies go towards the daylight at the top of the vent pipe.
The vent pipe should be black externally in order that daylight may slightly warm it and thereby encourage an UPWARD draught.

I just shake my head at the disruption these people are causing to people's lives. If they think for a minute they are furthering their cause by causing all this disruption they are very much mistaken. The police have taken a light touch approach so far much to mine and many others annoyance, but blocking the M32 crossed the line and the police finally took action:
https://www.avonandsomerset.police.uk/news/2019/07/arrests-made-following-protest-activity-affecting-m32-in-bristol/

PMQs dominated by environmental questions today.  Would that have been the case if these demonstrations weren’t taking place?

Indeed, the prevalence of this sort of protest is  keeping climate change firmly in the public mind, and therefore politicians have to at least pretend to be interested.

The police have been taking their PC Brigade patter saying that they have to balance the right to protest against taking action as it may infringe their human rights.   They have a right to protest, agreed, but they are committing an offence by blocking roads which prevents the human rights of people to get about their daily lives.

This is the thing that really gets me, they had the pre-agreed closure of Bristol bridge which in itself is a ballache
But then they started wondering about the bear pit junction and then this morning just off of the end of the M32

Somebody should be saying you either stick to the pre-agreed area or we move the whole lot of you away

The sooner this nonsense ends this week the better

It seems like they moved their bath tub from the journalistic "the M32 we mean Newfoundland Way" to the actual M32 and at that point the arrests were made. The organisers reported at the weekend they had 300 people prepared to be arrested, so they would seem to have plenty in reserve. Though of course people saying they're prepared to be arrested for a cause might decide otherwise when it comes to it.

Useful knowledge after the applecalypso has sung, sorry I mean apocalypse has struck!

I think the lack of caring about other people's lives derives from all to many of them being unempathetic failures in life. If only they had jobs to go to, or at least were actively looking for work.

The thing is there are genuine environmental campaigners who have campaigned almost all their lives regarding climate change. Then you have the part timers who have joined in because they see the word rebellion. They’ll be the ones you’ll see at Bristol Airport next week boarding a low cost airline to somewhere hot for their two week holiday after causing misery for those trying to go about their daily lives this week.

You obviously haven't actually met any XR people. I know many of those active in XR here in Bath and they are all the very opposite of the description you have used.

This is at least slightly unfair on politicians, or at least some of them. From the 1970s when the Arabs realised how much oil was worth, and a link was made between dead forests and industrial use of fuels, especially coal, a lot has changed in energy use. Very little of that change has come about through altruism on the part of either consumer or industry, but has been driven by government. Vehicle standards have changed, with a blip for the diesel generation, and building regulations now specify a minimum energy performance in new houses that would have been completely unattainable a couple of decades ago. Much of this change was derided when introduced, but it works. My own present house is a 15-month old detached building in a fairly exposed place. It uses a lot less fuel than the mid-terrace Victorian place I first bought in Bristol, and is a lot warmer in winter, entirely because of changes made by government.

That same government has announced an end to the building of petrol and diesel cars by 2040, an end to gas boilers and cookers in new homes, and a raft of other smaller measures. The first two raise huge questions of infrastructure and supply that I think may scupper the timescales, but although there may be a few hiccups along the way, we will arrive at those goals one day, if for no other reason than that we have no choice.

In contrast, some of the demands made by the apparent heads of the group of protesters have a sense of unreality about them, such as being "carbon neutral" by 2025. Another protest in London sought to end the manufacture of concrete, calling for a return to stonemasonry for major infrastructure and homes. Nice idea, taking us back to the stone age, but what that would do to the supply of "affordable" housing is anyone's guess. New railway bridges would presumably need the sort of inexhaustible pool of cheap labour enjoyed in Brunelian days, plus a few master masons.

The reason it has become an issue at PMQs is undoubtedly because of the protests, but not because any one party is going to do much about it. They are simply vying for influence and votes, each prtraying itself as the party that will deliver what the protesters want. Read no more into that, and Michael Gove's promise of stutory clean air, than that.

Having largely been away from the forum attending to family business in the north, I am catching up with the posts on this issue.

I largely agree TonyK's points. It is not the case that government/industry/the sectors of society who make decisions etc ignore climate change, and indeed other pollution problems. Although there is still a minority of climate change deniers, the problem is now largely part of public consciousness and policy. It is though a very difficult, almost intractable problem, as to how these are fixed without considerable hardship to many, often those most vulnerable economically.

Personally I do not think these protests add much to help solve the problem or promote the cause. Indeed, a well-produced Attenborough documentary would be more effective. The message could be delivered in a measured way causing no-one unnecessary inconvenience and not alienating members of the public who may not be so engaged. If we are going to have mass shows of support, orderly marches and rallies please.

The real heroes of the search to solve this problem will not be these people.They will be the climatologists and meteorologists who monitor and provide the weather evidence, the zoologists, botanists and ecologists who will monitor the effects and model and predict them in future, the engineers and scientists who will (hopefully) develop the technology and new ways of doing everything (food production, power production and transmission, transport and all the other activities currently creating the problem) to solve the problem and those who will make the decisions and implement them. Thugs advocating breaking the system will not. Those serious about engaging the young in this issue should be encouraging our brightest and best to embark on careers in these fields if they want to do something constructive to help.

There is a dark side to all this. The human instinct being engaged by those encouraging participants to join in activities like this is the same harnessed for Kristallnacht. Get a crowd whipped up with some kind of "righteous" rage and get the adrenalin flowing, then let rip a destructive force.

Alexander Fleming, Joseph Bazalgette, Edward Jenner and Joseph Lister did not to do this to save millions of lives. Hitler, Lenin, Mao and Pol Pot used these methods, and their actions cost millions of lives 

Just to address these two points: the first one is not quite accurate. What they've announced is an end to the registration of purely petrol or diesel cars after 2040. Hybrids, which might only have enough batter power for 30 miles then revert to petrol, will still be allowed. (In practice I think it's likely that technological developments will make petrol and diesel unattractive by about 2030 if not earlier, so it's a bit of an empty law.)

And the end of gas boilers and cookers in new homes I hadn't heard of. When did/does that come in?

Meanwhile, on the topic of flights, I've just heard someone praising the taking of a 13-hour flight to Dubai for a day trip as "normal".

"Yeah, it’s normal. And I really – everybody says that to me, it’s too far. It’s not. I just think you get on a plane, do a night flight, you get a 13-hour flight, you’ll end up sleeping on the plane hopefully for six or seven hours. And then you get to Dubai, you can spend a day there, get back on a plane, you’re in England. It isn’t as bad as people think it is."
By "not as bad as people think it is" he's referring to comfort issues.

Having looked it up again, I was wrong about gas hobs, but gas boilers will not be able to be installed in new-build houses from 2025, according to the BBC report (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47559920) of an announcement by the Chancellor. Like all such announcements which are made as a positive step in the tortoise-like dash to reduce our reliance on fossil fuels, it was immediately denounced by Greenpeace for not doing anything about aircraft, and not stopping the production of fossil-fuelled cars in 2030, rather than 2040. No pleasing some folk. That sort would, if you gave them a cheque for £1,000,000, ask for the bus fare to the bank and complain about the inconvenience of having to go there.

It does, however, raise some questions about the home of the future, needing about double the electricity supply of today's home with gas boiler and petrol car. Presumably, the electricity supply to new houses will be 3-phase AC, with a suitable local grid to supply them? And there must be a "magic leccy tree" for the supplies.


Much as I enjoy flying, the 6-hour schlep to the UAE isn't my idea of fun, even if it was my first ride on an A380. Having spent two days in Dubai, one of which was mainly recovering from the journey, I don't think I would recommend it for a day trip.

Did you see that last week the (independent official) Committee on Climate Change gave the government a poke in the midriff with a pointed report (https://www.theccc.org.uk/publication/reducing-uk-emissions-2019-progress-report-to-parliament/)? Its message was not unlike XR's, but perhaps more relevant - that the government has made good progress on having policies and targets, but not so much progress on having progress:

As to electricity, their view appears to be that the decarbonisation of homes and home-based vehicles is going to be hard, while uprating the distribution network to match is a relative doddle. The standard house supply has for some time been 100A, allowing 25 kW peaks, though most homes never use half of that and the wire along the road and the substations are sized for an average of less still.

Three phase has not generally been seen as necessary for domestic supplies here, though my brother's house in Edinburgh (which had once had a big electric heating system) had one when he bought it. It would not be hard to move to it, especially if new supply wires and fancier switchgear are needed in any case. In France, any supply with a contracted maximum of 12 kW or more has usually been provided as three-phase.

The proposed ban on gas boilers in new homes should not lead to much extra electricity demand. It is not proposed that a typical gas boiler with an output of over 20Kw should be replaced with a similar loading of electric heating.
The idea is to require that the new home be so well insulated that no heating is needed in moderately cold weather, and only a few Kw in severe cold.
Heat recovery from ventilation will help also.

This will lead to a de-facto ban on gas cooking for two reasons, firstly the economics of supplying gas only for cooking are very doubtful. Secondly the health and safety industry have been trying to ban gas cooking for years, and will regard this as the ideal opportunity to demand extra safety measures that will render gas cooking unaffordable to all but a few rich diehards.

I suspect that three phase electricity supply to homes will become the norm, but primarily for electric vehicle charging and not for heating.

Day3. First inkling of disruption on my journey into City Centre was when my bus detoured down the Muller Road intersection and proceeded along Stapleton Road to Easton Way and then around the Lawrence Hill roundabout to Old Market and Cabot Circus BUT only added about 5 minutes to journey time.

Two exit lanes from M32 blocked by a police van and not by a pink bathtub as reported in the press, the bathtub was in an intersection between Newfoundland Way and Bond Street South.

Later for my journey out to Emersons Green First had positioned a guy at the Cabot Circus stop to advise pax that the only service from the stop was the m1 service all other services were diverting and to use the Lewins Mead stop to which I responded that I would get the m1 to UWE and change there for Emersons and I advised a disabled man who arrived at the stop for EG as well but the plonker said he would be better off going to the Lewin Mead stop even though I pointed out to the disabled chap the interchange points at Begbrook, Stoke Lane, UWE Campus and UWE Gardens on the timetable display. As the First bloke had a First HV waistcoat on he took that advice. Within minutes a m1 arrived and I and 2 other passengers boarded, journey to UWE was unimpeded and waited less than 5 minutes for a m3 to EG. Return journey to City Centre diverted via Easton Way from M32 via Lawrence Hill and Old Market with no delay and by the time we got to Bond Street South / Newfoundland Way intersection bathtub had gone, most protesters had dispersed for the evening peak and journey home on Y1 uneventful.

I am firmly of the opinion that much of Bristols congestion problems arise from the City Councils sheer incompetence in painting a few metres of double yellow lines on arterial roads out of the city. I have posted before on this forum that highways with a 28 foot kerb to kerb carriageway has 6 foot wide spaces marked out for parking both sides of the road leaving just 16 foot for two 8 foot 6 inch buses to pass. Even the proverbial village idiot can work out that 17 will not go into 16 once but the highly paid so called highway engineers are incapable of working that one out. Councillors are not much better either, they are only in the game for the £11,000 plus pa allowances which they get for so called travel within the city, I can get a First Bus West of England monthly season ticket for £80 a month (less if you buy a yearly one) but many of the councillors are OAP's themselves and have their Diamond Travelcard. I tell you, if I were PM I would scrap these councillors allowances but allow claims for reasonable out of pocket expenses, That would sort out those who GENUINELY want to serve the community they live in from those who are in the game for the easy money.

Three phase would significantly increase health and safety risks of poor electrical practices as while the (single) phase live to neutral voltage on a domestic supply is 230V, the phase to phase is 400V!

My father-in-law had three phase (actually I think it was two-phase) by the simple means of asking the guys connecting his newly built house to provide it. But it was only in the shed where he did welding not in the house itself, and he was an electrician and knew what he was doing.

Moving back to gas heating etc, whatever happens in new build houses is rather peripheral as they're a very small part of the UK housing stock.

My own current residence is under 18 months old, and is a one-off rather than on a Barrett or similar estate. Every light bulb is LED, the incandescent item being my wife occasionally. The hob is induction.  Downstairs has underfloor heating in four separate zones. There are bi-fold doors facing south which even on the coldest day allow sunlight to warm up the room, to the point where I have had to check that the heating hasn't come on. It's the future.

What's the induction hob like to cook on? Don't you need special pots and pans, or am I thinking of some other sort?

It won't work with any pots to which a magnet will not stuck, so copper and aluminium and some steels are out, but they are hardly special these days. I was a devotee of gas before, but find induction just as easy to use, and a darn sight easier to keep clean.

After my move, I switched to an induction hob too.

I concur about ease of use and ease of keeping clean.

You open up a massive question - so how do you get sufficient people who
* "genuinely want to serve the community they live in"
* know enough and are bright enough to be useful
* can afford the uncompensated/unpaid time
* are robust enough to stand up to the pressures
* believe in what the community believes in and will further community causes (rather than their own)

Motivation - knowledge - availability - strength - policy

Both Lisa and I have given deep consideration to becoming local councillors at a local level here in Wiltshire, and I have sufficient confidence in both of us that if we put our minds to it and made a goal of it we could do so.  Doing such requires a degree of compromise. One local councillor here stated to me he's not naturally a member of the Conservative party, but took the pragmatic decision to join so that he could stand with their ticket which - though we hear about where things differ - is 90% the same ticket as other parties or independents would have.

Adding the compromise, the need to leave time to earn a living (and to sleep!), the need to be very robust indeed to pressures, we have both decided it's really not for us.  It sounds to me like the £11k is a sort of distorted salary / income - and perhaps that does make the difference for some good people, but (yes) also perhaps for those who are more interested in the money (and power and kudos) than in being an effective councillor for the people who elect them.

Thanks. No plans to change our gas hob in the foreseeable but nothing lasts for ever!

Portable single induction cooking rings are also available, they work from a 13 amp socket and are very useful as a supplement to existing facilities, and also for use in a caravan or boat where space and power availability are limited.

Some aggro last night, apparently.
https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/extinction-rebellion-bristol-protest-traffic-3104325

He's wrong in fact: https://www.bristol.gov.uk/streets-travel/current-roadworks-and-road-closures

The question of access for the disabled has perhaps not been thought through (though if she can't work a quarter of a mile, I'm surprised she can manage a cleaning job).

Whilst I have sympathy with the aims and concerns of the protesters, I can also sympathise with road users whose business is impeded.
As one driver put it at the London protests, "we are told that opening the road is not a police matter. In that case, we should be allowed to open the road ourselves"

Eventually, if these protests continue, I think that's what you will see. These so called peaceful protests may then not be so peaceful. When people see the police continually appearing* to do nothing, they will do something about it themselves.

*Aware their hands are very much legally tied.

I would be surprised if this apparently innocuous snippet of news has not been looked into today by one of my former colleagues.  :)


I bought one when we moved house in 2009, without a kitchen for a little while. It cost me £20 from a leading German discounter, and went on to cook lunch or bacon sarnies many a time at my then office, as well as being lent out to needy friends and providing an adjunct to the barbecue at the far end of our garden. I recently sold it for for £20. Every Lidl helps!

I've had my ind hob for ten years and love it,is got four zones that each have a timer function and one of the zones is a max 3100watt which boils a litre and half of water in less time than it takes the kettle to do the same ,hardly gets hot,glass flat surface is a doddle to keep clean I couldn't be more impressed,as Tony said earlier it's the future !.

Day 4. Didn't see any disruption today. Press reports indicated protest at MOD Abbey Wood but speaking with someone who passed through on the Ring Road at about 10.30 this am no sign of XR at all.

Feverish activity around Bristols Harbourside today preparing for, starting tomorrow, the three day Annual Harbour Festival.

At last! Real honest gridlock!

Call me old (and now a few dare to) but shuffling through the understandable crowds that attend tends to weaken my enthusiasm for being there. Some malt, hop and yeast based refreshment* can lessen the stress but is negated by the life wasted in ten deep queues.


*It's important to be mindful that beer is so much more than just another breakfast drink.

Nope, big crowds not for me either. Events like this I would attend early and get out before the crowds really kick off.

Going back to the main reason for this thread. Just heard on the local news that Bristol Airport is a target for future protests. You have been warned.

These people must have very understanding bosses to allow them so much time off for protests....... ::)

Perhaps they are using one week of their their annual leave?

Well some certainly are, and some do have understanding bosses. There are also many retired people involved.

Interesting piece on Bristol Post (https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/camped-extinction-rebellion-bristols-castle-3104719) about life with the Extinction Rebellion camp and group (in both London and now Bristol).   Much to read - please do click on the link.

I read ...


My highlighting and I read on, wondering if I would learn as to why she was no longer his girlfriend ...


OK ... so - the girlfriend? ...


Ah - right.  Visions of a breakup evaporate.

And they sound like a thoughtful couple, looking ahead, fearful for the future.  With the $64,000 question - "what can I do to help influence it for the better?"

Of course, having a child is probably the least environmentally friendly thing you could do.   ;)

I have been thrice over the years. I enjoyed the first two. The third was pretty much identical to the first two.


Made from grains and flowers. It's practically muesli.

Good, air travel is highly polluting and I have more sympathy with those disrupting air transport, than those disrupting buses, trains, and LUL services.
I wonder what will be done to disrupt Bristol airport.
Obvious tactics include xxxxx xxxxxx xxx xxxxxxxx xxxx xxxxxx xx xxx xxxxxxx.
xxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxx x xxx xxxxxx xxx xxxxxxx (xxxx xxxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx xxx xxxx xxxx xx, xxx xx xxx xxx xxx xxx xxxxxx xxxx xx xxxxxxxxx xxx xxxxxxxxx)
xxxx xx xxx "xxxxxx" xxx xxxxx xx xxxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxxxxx xxx xxx xxxxxxxxx xxx xxxxx xx xxx.
xxxx xxxxx xxxxxxxxx xxxx xxx xxxxxxx x xxxxx xxxxxx xx xxxxxxxx xx xxxxx xxxxxxxxxxxx xxxx, xxxxx xxxxxx xx xxxx xx xxxxxx xx xxxxxxxx xxxxxxxx xxxx. xxxxxxx xxx xxx xxxx xxxxx xxxx xxx xxxxxxx xx xxx xxxx xxx.
xxxxxx x xxx xxxx xxxxx xxxx xxxxxx xx xxxxxxxxxx. x xxxx xx xxx xx xxxxxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxxxxxx xx xxxx xxx xxxx, xxx xxxxxxxx xxx xxxxxxxx xxxxxx, xxxxx xxxxxx xxx xxxxx xxxxxxx.

Imagine the outrage of "nice" people xxxxx xxxxxxx xx xxxxxxxx xxx xxxxx xxxx xxxxxx.

Edit - I have "x''d out some of that - question raised in my mind as to whether the text would assist in law breaking.   Checking with fellow admins / mods for their views too - in quarantine at the moment

Notwithstanding a worthy cause , lives are already being endangered by preventing/delaying blue light emergency calls through blocking roads. Suggesting that you're sympathetic to compromising  the safety of aircraft by flying drones close to an airport is highly irresponsible. We can all (I hope?) protest legitimately about sincerely held beliefs & causes without putting lives at risk.

Edited to replace a quote by a quote with text redacted.

What a totally irresponible post to make on this forum.  We shouldn't lower ourselves to making such suggestions public.

Isn't that disgraceful post incitement to break the law?  Surely that's against the Forum Rules?  But more to the point, as SandTEngineer says, a completely irresponsible thing to suggest.

My suggestions were not original, but were openly discussed by climate change protesters in a busy public house, and were overheard not just by members or supporters but also by many other customers.

They are, however, still suggestions which look very much like an incitement to break the law and while I get a check moderator / admin views on that I have redacted the parts that concern me.

But at least on a plane, there is a service of drinks and hot food...

In view of the strong concerns expressed, you could simply delete the post in question.
If you decide to delete, then I respectfully urge deleting the replies since they would no longer make sense without the post to which they refer.

From Bristol Live - https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/extinction-rebellion-protest-bristol-m32-3103399 - the Police and Crime Commissioner (PCC) Sue Mountstevens


The subject of this [demonstration / protest / rebellion] is a very "high stakes" one. And as such it raises considerable emotion and differing views.

I'm uneasy that the PCC appears to have the authority to [ state / decide / preach ] what is appropriate / what is proportionate.   She is perfectly entitled to her view, as am I, as are members here who feel that it's gone on too long and as are members here who feel that it's appropriate for protests to go on and points continue to be made until ...

That was an option available to me  (and I suppose remains available once I get further admin / moderator feedback on underlying forum admin issues).  However, as an interim I chose not to destroy a thread in such a way that it could not be put back if I find myself in a minority.

Personally, I have huge sympathy with the cause and enormous respect for many concerned.  As with almost any cause, it has its fringes (which may be pretty strongly populated) which can at times do the cause more harm than good - I've come across a couple of those in other campaigning; those might be the people who go to extreme illegal and dangerous lengths, and they might be the people who preach "carbon neutral" and use the worst possible carbon wasting transport to get to the protest at which they stay just long enough to tell their pals they have been.  I also accept that there are those who's views differ from mine.

Now - where everyone can come together is to look for common cause in a sustainable, better quality future ... and to help channel the raw enthusiasm of so many people into working out what that means and doing it in a very effective way.  But make no mistake - we may only have a limited time to do this - its all very well for rail projects to slip into the next control period, but with issues that change our whole planet we may not have that luxury.

I personally agree that the status quo on energy use cannot be sustained for much longer, but the protesters outstayed their welcome, The impression I get from a look at social media is that the protesters may have lost a lot more sympathisers than they gained. Another thing I noticed is the volume of just plain wrong information being peddled on Twitter as science by people who can't spell but purport to know it all. And that's wrong without being an expert myself. There is of course a lot of correct information, some of it more than a little alarming, even without the customary hyperbole.
Anyway, it's raining today

If beer is the "breakfast of champions" then muesli is the "beer of runners-up".

Here's an account of it with the reactions of some of those responsible.

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/extinction-rebellion-protester-fights-back-tears-as-she-hears-demonstration-stopped-man-from-a4193446.html?utm_medium=Social&utm_source=Facebook&fbclid=IwAR3iFbFxiR1SiLzKGLrK4rGv6f4Shtf1hubJQs8FWsfoYWZvLkmLk8dJ_JI#Echobox=1563487377

I know what the "Breakfast of Champions" is, and it isn't a drink. Or food, for that matter.  ;D

Reported in today's Guardian, an alternative way of making the point about climate change.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/22/memorial-to-mark-icelandic-glacier-lost-to-climate-crisis#img-1 (https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/22/memorial-to-mark-icelandic-glacier-lost-to-climate-crisis#img-1)

Perhaps something like this should be hung up on the wall of every decision-maker.

Sadly, this report and the actions in it will reach far less effect in bringing the point to everyone who matters ... having written that, who is it important to bring the point to, and how do we bring it to them in such a way that they're likely to be positive in action rather than defensive in reaction?

Three things that caught my eye over the weekend

I live in WSM, the local paper reported two guys from town were arrested during the protests. One of them is infamous for attending any event where he can protest and is more than happy to be arrested - but he brags that as soon as he is away from the area he always gets de-arrested so has no issue with being nicked

The list of names of people in court in Bristol. There was not one person from the local area that got arrested... so thanks to them for all the wasted journeys

Finally, the picture of the boat that was used in Cardiff. It was photographed at a service station being towed by a massive 4x4 gas guzzler

Crocodile tears !
She was grinning during the interview. That tells you everything you need to know about her

When we have a hot summer, no-one can say for sure whether that's climate change - or just weather.
When a glacier melts, everyone should know for certain that the climate is heating up.

Agree. Weather can vary for lots of reasons, some of which are random or poorly understood.
Glaciers melting or retreating are a sure sign that average temperatures have increased.

A single heatwave proves nothing, but a long term increase in both average and peak temperatures does show a warming trend.

I was rather surprised by the figure of 415 ppm CO₂, which is much lower than the 600 to 700 being quoted by some in the environmental industry. But I trust Iceland in such matters much more than I trust most other sources, having visited twice and seen at first hand what they are talking about.

Whether they are acting correctly themselves is a moot point, as Iceland had the highest per capita CO₂ emissions in Europe in 2016, according to their own statistical office. (https://www.statice.is/publications/news-archive/environment/carbon-dioxide-emission-per-capita/) That surprised me greatly, given that the heating and hot water in the places I stayed was piped directly from the hot springs to the tap, and the electricity is produced by geothermal plants with so much available that plans for a UK interconnector (https://askjaenergy.com/2018/04/17/icelink-in-operation-by-2025/) have survived Brexit. It seems aluminium smelting is a possible culprit, along with the now dwindling tourist industry as the Faroes positions itself more prominently as a holiday destination. Air traffic to Iceland has grown massively in the past couple of decades, despite the best efforts of Eyjafjallajökull.

On the plus side, there are a lot fewer capita in Iceland - half the population of the greater Bristol urban area in 100 times the area, so it is relative. Aluminium smelting is very energy intensive, and it would be a lot more polluting if the million tonnes per year produced by Iceland were smelted somewhere without its energy advantage. So I shan't blame Iceland for its own woes, especially as it is the only country with hydrogen pumps in normal fuel stations.

A few years ago, I admired the Mendenhall glacier in Alaska from a point which, a decade earlier, had been under 10 metres of ice. My guide for the day said other glaciers were shrinking, but a few were growing. Bearing in mind that the Antarctic was once home to palm trees and that Eyjafjallajökull is by no means the only volcano at work, natural forces are at play as well as man-made. Which is no reason to stop developing ways of cleaning up the atmosphere - at least we would take the man-made part of the equation away, and know that our hands are clean when polar bears move to the frozen wastes of Ibiza, and Greenland becomes accessible only by camel.

Iceland has a tremendous natural resource. The UAE has, as well as oil, and is building an experimental solar plant, with concave mirrors focusing the sunlight onto a store of molten salt. This heats up during the day,, and keeps the heat to produce electricity at night. It should be running early next year, along with a huge conventional solar park in the desert. Even the men with the oil are planning to cut down the use of it dramatically. There is also a new nuclear plant due to open in Dubai this year. The intention is to cut emissions by half before 2050.

I can see that we in the UK will still be dithering about what to do when even China has cleaned up its act, though.

Despite having lots of geothermal power, the Icelandics also have a thing for large 4x4s and aren't particularly keen on public transport. I seem to recall that per-capita air travel is also very high. With the high prices there, certainly pre-crash, if you needed to buy much more than a pair of jeans it was often cheaper to go to Glasgow for the weekend.   

If you go to Iceland, you will quickly realise that 4x4s are pretty much essential outside of Reykjavik. Public transport is tough enough in Bristol, let alone in a growing country with miles of tundra between settlements.

There are 14 airports with regular scheduled services, and about as many again for general aviation. With the exception of Reykjavik and Keflavik International, they are separated by long distances and / or inhospitable terrain. Prices are higher than here - it is not a good destination for a boozing holiday, for sure! It isn't alone. I once went to Norway on the Jupiter, a rather elderly ship that sails between Newcastle and Stavanger, then up the fjord to Bergen. There were a lot of Norwegians on board, who had been shopping for traditional Norwegian knitwear in the huge shopping centre outside Newcastle.

And so to the aftermath. If the arrested protesters were hoping for a week long trial before a sympathetic jury with a variety of expert witnesses on hand to help justify the claim of necessity before the world's press, they will be disappointed. Obstruction of the highway is a summary offence, so will be heard in the Magistrates Court. The judge in the recent trial of UWE senior lecturer Steven Melia, for blocking a London road, said that although he was sure that his convictions were strongly held and genuine, he didn't have to obstruct the highway to point this out. He then handed him another genuine conviction, finding him guilty and fining him £500 plus costs of £300 and a victim surcharge of £30. The case made the BBC website. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-49241285)


The other 1,000 - 2,000 arrested would save a few quid if they plead guilty, and speak in mitigation of their actions rather than denying the charge and standing trial. The ones who got the wrong building and chained themselves to the doors of Statkraft would do well to keep a low profile to avoid being a laughing stock again. Statkraft is a leading Norwegian renewable energy company who moved into the building a year ago. The former occupier was Drax, who was also a renewable energy company until even the government realised that shipping kiln-dried wood pellets from America and Canada to burn in power stations wasn't that green. That said, there's a lot of unrecyclable material in wind farms, especially the turbine blades. There is anywhere around 10 tonnes in each blade, mainly fibreglass or fibre reinforced polymer, currently scheduled for landfill when no longer required, so they may have  had a point.

Why single out wind farms - one of the most efficient forms of energy production (https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/advantages-and-challenges-wind-energy) - as opposed to other heavily-subsidised (https://www.imf.org/en/Publications/WP/Issues/2019/05/02/Global-Fossil-Fuel-Subsidies-Remain-Large-An-Update-Based-on-Country-Level-Estimates-46509) sources which generally involve huge quantities of concrete? (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Environmental_impact_of_concrete)

My understanding is that Extinction Rebellion asks for people to state whether they are willing to be arrested or not, so it is likely that almost all those arrested knew they would be and had been briefed on what to do, including the decision whether to plead guilty or not.

Prejudice. I don't like coal-fired power stations either, but at least they don't build them in the countryside any more. I'm getting used to solar, which is generally well hidden, and actually works fairly well until sunset. Factories, schools, and government offices except where listing or other considerations make it impractical should all have them. I am not against subsidised generation per se if it is cost effective and helps.*


So you end up £800 poorer, the state £800 better off, and the first couple will get a paragraph in the local paper and a mention on the BBC website. It hardly has the same impact as throwing yourself under the King's horse. The out-of-town Bristol contingent all said they would plead not guilty with a defence of necessity, a plan that didn't go well in London. I rather think that the police decided to charge, and the CPS to prosecute, on the basis of offences that are only appropriate to the Magistrates Court. The Public Order Act 1986 codified the previous common law and archane offences of riot, violent disorder, affray, unlawful assembly etc. The organisers would say that the events were not organised, and were in any event non-violent, and most are triable either way, giving the option of a Crown Court hearing. A straightforward traffic offence is easier to prove and cheaper to deal with, and the result is likely to be much the same, so why not do it that way?

(* I am expecting my cheque from the feed-in tariff scheme soon, for my own solar installation. It should pay for dinner.)

An honest answer, and not one that's easy to argue with.

The other day I stopped on my bicycle as close as I could get to one of the wind turbines of the Avonmouth Wind Farm (https://www.thriverenewables.co.uk/projects/avonmouth-wind-farm/). I was interested to see and hear for myself, because I too am prejudiced: wind turbines, particularly onshore ones, have always struck me as a good idea.

These turbines are largish at 126m to the tip, and between the four of them have a forecast annual output of just over 20GWh - peanuts compared with Hinkley C (which incidentally I will be visiting next week) but enough to power a few thousand homes.

So they're hard to miss, though in the context of Avonmouth you'd have to have an eccentric aesthetic sense to object to them. As to the noise: there was an intermittent stream of traffic on the road I was stopped by, and it was windy(!). The turbines were turning at a fair old clip, with the wind coming towards me and... there were times when I was almost confident that I could hear them; sort of like the sound of an airliner at cruise height maybe 10km away.

So there you are. I've tried to understand the objections, but I've failed.

Well there's the rub. 6.3% of global GDP (some $4.7Tn), according to the IMF, is spent on SUBSIDISING FOSSIL FUELS. I'm not normally one to shout, but on this occasion I feel it is justified. A fraction of this subsidy, redirected towards better ways of generating electricity, would at least allow us to say 'we tried our hardest'...

If we are going to consider the carbon cost of building wind turbines (and arguably we should) Then we should also consider the carbon cost of building new fossil fuel burning power plants.

The building of a new gas, oil or coal burning power station takes a great deal of concrete, steel, copper and other energy intensive materials. This is in addition to the ongoing carbon emissions from the combustion of the fuel.
At least a wind turbine only emits significant carbon during construction, with the ongoing emissions being negligible.

Wind power is now a significant source of UK electricity.

In Avonmouth, carry on by all means. The constant drone from the M5 traffic has probably removed all sensitivity in the area. I must ask someone I know if it is ever quiet.

Being less glib than my earlier answer suggests, wind farms are the least green of the green kit, but with the most noise made to support them. It's partly this greenwashing that makes me less endeared to them, but mainly the the effect they have on other more pleasant places, to the detriment of the residents whose views are ultimately ignored. That, and the degree of self-interest by those who decide policy. I have found over the years that diesel isn't as clean as it was once thought to be, and that nothing is ever as good as it seems from a distance.

I am really, genuinely interested to understand this assertion - I am not beyond having my mind changed, despite my self-confessed prejudice.

Never mind dealing with them from outside, the internal wrangles and problems of the cooperative movement have been byzantine - see -https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Co-operative_Group for a summary, which does not go into the details of such chapters as the failure of the South Suburban Co-op. 

XR have blockaded road access to the Valero oil refinery, Pembroke dock.
It remains to be seen what effect this will have.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cmjpj223708t/oil (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/cmjpj223708t/oil)

Effect on oil price would be negligible compared to the bombing of the Saudi refinery and shipment port, surely.

Wondering if the thread title ought to be changed, as we're entering autumn, and the protests look like going on for a few years (or more).
School and people protests today around the world as well as the UK.

I've changed the title of this thread to 'Climate protests in Bristol' - today's (20/9/19) protest, for example, is primarily linked with the school strike movement rather than XR. I have also changed the title of the London thread to Climate protests in London (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=21434.msg273563#msg273563), for consistency.

I've moved the debate about the rights and wrongs of storing petrol here: http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22213.0

HMG have recently released a statement advising people to stock up on candles, battery torches and radios etc.
The risks of supply disruptions are noted.
Does not specifically mention climate protestors or any other group.

We now have two wars in or near oil and gas producing regions.
Extreme weather events are increasingly severe and more frequent.
Foreign powers are reportedly increasing cyber attacks on energy and other infrastructure.

Society is becoming more vulnerable to blackouts.

Lack of telephone and internet service could have serious consequences.


https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/05/britons-should-stock-up-on-torches-and-candles-in-case-of-power-cuts-says-oliver-dowden#:~:text=People%20should%20stock%20up%20on,deputy%20prime%20minister%20reportedly%20said. (https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2023/dec/05/britons-should-stock-up-on-torches-and-candles-in-case-of-power-cuts-says-oliver-dowden#:~:text=People%20should%20stock%20up%20on,deputy%20prime%20minister%20reportedly%20said.)

Yes, very sensible to have modest supplies of all of them.  As it is to minimise alcohol consumption, eat a balanced diet, exercise regularly, look after mental health etc.

Not sure why you chose to post it in a Bristol climate protest thread though?

Any "Port" in a storm?  ;)

I've charged the car up, just in case. We should be OK today, because it's windy. When it gets like last week, where we had practically no wind for 3 days, things could be a bit trickier, especially as we'll be burning a lot more gas to keep homes warm. Thankfully, we still have a bit of coal left for the few remaining power stations.

The perils of our energy policy over the past three decades are apparent. Let's hope we don't make more of the same mistakes, and especially don't build in reliance on other countries to the same extent.

If push comes to shove, I'll go back to bed until it's all over.

Despite the thread title, we had diverged somewhat onto more general climate protests. Any future large scale protests could result in fuel shortage, or other dislocation.
Therefore this thread seemed a proper place to quote the government advice.
 

Perhaps the three title can be changed then?