Great Western Coffee Shop

I am very much a supporter of steps being taken to collect all rail fares, and to take steps to recover unpaid and underpaid fares from travellers who have knowingly travelled unpaid / underpaid and indeed may have taken steps to maximise their chance of being able to travel at less than the minimum valid fare.

On our service to Weymouth yesterday, the train manager did an excellent job of checking all the tickets, and selling tickets to those who boarded at stations without facilities (we stopped at Thornford AND Yetminster AND Chetnole!!) and by I would be pretty sure that the train rolled into Weymouth with everyone ticketed.

So why oh why make everyone queue at a fares blockade to leave the platform?   It's ONLY the GWR train that would have used that platform and a whole train load of people had come for a day at the seaside and not for a second check of what had already been checked.   I WAS going to say "unnecessary" second check - but perhaps there's a reason that someone can tell me that it was necessary.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/doublecheck.jpg)

I take it the second bloke is watching to see if anyone just walks past the agency guy doing all the work!

It seems to me what you had was an example of the splitting up of the railways.

The Weymouth checking staff seemed to be SWR, presumably doing a check on their trains as well.

Wonder who would have got the money if there had been ticket less/wrong ticket  passengers on the GWR train?

Also would SWR staff know that Thornford AND Yetminster AND Chetnole had no ticket selling facilities?

Very likely - "we manage this station so we check our way ..."


Doesn't matter - train manager with mobile ticket machine had visited everyone who got on at each of them.

Even if he/she had had a word while changing ends/going on break (and would have walked near/past them), would they have relented or had the authority to let everyone pass (especially as it's an SWR/GWR divide)?

Common sense doesn't seem to prevail at times.

I fully support random ticket blocks. These need to be conducted without fear or favour regardless of the origin, calling points and operator of incoming trains.

A highly visible presence on a busy day to the seaside (and a Sunday too) is to be applauded. Any chancers (on ANY incoming service) may not have expected a block on a Sunday.

How were those manning the block to know that the conductor had done a full ticket check? For instance, can you categorically confirm said conductor got to all those who had boarded at Dorchester West and Upwey? All incoming services should be checked.

When you travel on the railway you have to expect a ticket check at any point of your journey and whilst on railway property. And remember, exit checks were once common across the network, privatisation and fragmentation is not to blame.

Random ticket checks are valuable as a deterrent against fare evasion, but perhaps in this case their time could be more usefully spent checking tickets on services where the conductor hasn't already done so? If nothing else it's really poor customer service and makes the system look idiotic.

As for them not knowing if the conductor had been through the whole train and checked everyone, presumably the revenue bods could have tried asking him, or is that too much like common sense?  ???

I was going to respond to this earlier but I had to go out and have been busy all day.

I must say I am very surprised the way this thread has gone so far, and it is only Mac who appears to me to have got the full picture.

Firstly, Revenue Protection have blocks from time to time, and seaside resorts on busy days are favourite spots. I recall them once getting good pickings at WSM one Summer Saturday when I arrived on a through London service, non-stop from Bristol. Clearly there were a lot of people on that train who didn’t have a ticket or, if they did, not one valid to take them to Weston.

I am afraid the line of thought “they could have asked the Train Manager” I find startling in its naivety. Part of the blockade’s purpose is an audit check; not railways I accept, but many years ago in the days of bus conductors I was on a bus between Staple Hill and Hanham where the conductor was charging everybody half fare and issuing them with penny tickets (a long time ago this, of course!). When an Inspector got on at Soundwell the conductor tried to go swiftly through putting matters right, but I suspect that that was the last bus he ever worked on…

Thinking more about that particular incident during the day, it crossed my mind that if he was pulling that stunt regularly his takings would be lower than the other conductors on the route, and I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he hadn’t actually been deliberately targeted on that day. Taking that principle forward, who on here knows for certain that there aren’t a few “iffy” Train Managers out there?

But leaving potential fraud and criminality to one side, OK the TM went through and checked every ticket and made sure that everybody had a ticket. We have already been told that it was a busy service. Would it be reasonable for him to remember the nature of each and every ticket for each and every passenger on that train? For example, what if he had been shown a valid return from Yeovil to Dorchester and the holder was still sitting on the train as it passed Jersey Sidings?

Multi-ticket checks are and always have been quite common. Back in the 60s if I was issued a free pass on a long distance journey, say to Scotland, that Edmonson Card could get back to Bristol looking more like a sieve than a ticket. And yes, the TI at Temple Meads would also look at it and take it off me. On the other hand, a free pass to Bournemouth used down the S&D would usually come back in pristine condition. And you can draw your own conclusions on how that might happen… ;)

A full ticket check such as the one shown at Weymouth where everyone has had an opportunity to purchase a ticket before the train arrives at the destination station means that anyone who has intentionally 'slipped through the net' has then shown intent to avoid paying and potentially made it easier for the TOC to proceed with a prosecution.

I would assume that the SWR member of staff watching the proceedings is part of the Revenue Protection department and is observing to see if anybody attempts to bypass the check for the reasons mentioned above.

I wonder if they also had someone guarding the exit to the car park at the end of platform 1. There must also be a case for Weymouth to be ticket gated as well.

Grahame, would I be right in saying this post has been motivated, at least in part, by MRUG's Travel by Train with Confidence day?
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=21793.0

On the plus side any people breaking their train duck and travelling for the first time had help if they needed it at the revenue block and on the other it may have put off people travelling in future?

I can see the potential frustration with the latter, but also maybe it's good they had the full experience so they can assess if they want to do it again solo.

Last week on one of the local services from Weston which started here

Went through barrier with ticket
Guard checked ticket BEFORE train left
Train Manager checked ticket again before we'd arrived at Worle

I kinda guessed I would get some heartfelt and differing comments back when I started this thread.

Let me strongly re-iterate my starting point which was that steps should be taken to ensure all fares are collected.

But at the same time the system should be such that it does not make anyone who's going about their correct (ticketed) journey feel checked to the extent of being doubted as to their correctness, or be delayed by jams at gatelines or RPI blockades.  There are those of us who try to be law abiding to the extent of feeling guilty when our valid tickets are checked and then rechecked again soon thereafter, or when our tckets fail to work a gateline and we have to seek out an assistant or explain outselves over a video link where we and our ticket can be seen, but we don't even get the visual of the person we're talking to - just a voice from the person who has magic key to let us through or not ...

I had not, I admit, considered the possibility that one of the purposes of the extra ticket check might have been to audit the effectiveness and correctness of the train manager's checks.

"Our" train was followed into Weymouth by the "Belmont Pullman" charter from Coventry.  I note some forum members suggesting that all incoming trains irrespective of operator should have been checked;  I did not stick around at the station to see that arrival, but I do wonder if the team of 3 (I think) - one supervisor and 2 actually checking - looked at the paperwork for everyone coming off that 11 carriage train, and if they did how they wel trained they were on what constituted a valid ticket or charter staff pass.

It seems that the many are inconvenienced as a result of the actions of a few. Not the only example of that at Weymouth station ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/noloowey.jpg)

I used to work with a bloke at Bath Road who used to say "It's the SYSTEM that's wrong, it's the SYSTEM that needs sorting out." Should you ask him what he thought was wrong and what he thought should be done to put it right he'd repeat the same thing, or he might say "don't ask me, ask the people who thought up the SYSTEM"

Much the same as the ephemeral "they" who should "be doing something about it..."

Now I am not totally guiltless here, but whenever I find something that's going wrong, I do at least put suggestions forward for what should be done instead and/or what changes could or should be made. So I would put the poin back to Graham - what would YOU do about it, whilst bearing in mind the following:

You started your journey at Melksham, a station without a Gateline. The TM ought to have checked your ticket or sold you one on the way to Trowbridge. You then changed to the Bristol to Weymouth train where the TM on that train checked your ticket. You then got off the train at Weymouth, a station without a Gateline, but find a squad of RPOs there checking tickets. So according to my arithmetic you had your ticket checked three times.

If I travel from here to Cheltenham via Bristol, I put my ticket into the Gateline at Chippenham. I may get my ticket checked by GWR staff on the train to Bristol, especially if its in the peak, and if I go outside for a fag break at Bristol it gets checked twice more, and one of those won't operate the Gateline because of the built-in time delay. The XC TM on the Brum train will want to check my ticket too, and when I get to Cheltenham, it goes into a Gateline again. That sounds like at least four, and possibly up to six, ticket checks to me, at least one more than the people on your train "suffered." Quite probably many of them who joined at unstaffed stations between Frome and Weymouth only got theirs checked twice; once on the train, and once by the RPOs at Weymouth.

So where's the problem in the system, and what would you do to "sort it out?"

I feel your bringing up the Belmont Pullman is a complete red herring. That train is reservation only and, after leaving Coventry, only hadadvertised calls at Birmingham International and New Street. There would not have been anybody allowed on that private charter train if they didn't have a reservation for it or weren't a crew member. Checking people getting off that train would have been a piece of cake compared to the train from Bristol, which had made 19 station calls since it set off that morning, many of which were unstaffed, and it passed through interchange points where people with (or without) tickets from other lines may have joined the train. Indeed, you were one of them!

So as I said, where's the problem in the system, and what would you do to "sort it out?"

I just wish GWR would do a block on Platform 7 at Reading on Friday afternoons during the holiday seasons. All Westcountry services are advertised as 'Pick Up Only' at Reading, yet savvy pax know that GWR cannot police this - resulting in gross overcrowding. GWR's own attitude to this is 'we need to get folk out of London quickly and by any means possible', so turn a blind eye to this.

Penalty fare all those alighting at Reading even if they are season ticket holders!

Good point but in terms of "feel", I don't think putting your ticket in a gateline feels the same as having it checked by a person. That said, I'm not sure there is a problem here, other than the slight delay to passengers leaving at Weymouth.

Why not just install ticket barriers at Weymouth?

Ticket barriers and/or manual checks - there are a number of ways an apparently valid ticket can be used fraudulently [peak v off-peak; child v adult; part-journey; Advance on wrong train, etc] Personally, it is nothing more than a minor inconvenience to have my ticket 'properly' checked multiple times on my journey

I'm beginning to think some people consciously enjoy it! 🙂

Another perfectly valid reason for multiple checks on a single journey is the relatively new phenomenon of split-ticketing. I have heard anecdotal evidence [but not seen definite evidence] of some pax having just two of several tickets checked [start and end] and then claiming refunds on the unchecked tickets. Unlikely to happen on a Melksham to Weymouth ticket, but consider, say, a Paignton to Stafford journey.

There would be sense in that.  There might be sense in doing that for the SWR station (that's platforms 2 and 3) and not for the GWR station (that's platform 1).  GWR trains are typically fully checked by the train manager. SWR trains are (I don't think) fully checked in the same way.


See above for a suggestion.  And also look to the experts to help us work out further system improvement suggestions.


Others (not yourself I don't think, Robin) suggested that all trains irrespective of the operator running them, should have all their passengers checked at a block. ALL trains, you note. So (I agree with you) it's very unlikely that anyone would have arrived unticketed on that train - but never the less others are suggesting that all eleven carriages of people should have queued for inspection via the couple of active checkers.

Is the real problem that the ticket check was not properly resourced for the number of passengers arriving on that service, not that the check took place?

Feel is I suppose another word for perception in this case. And people's perceptions can vary. For example, I was recently on a Paddington-bound train when the TM came along to check tickets (we were passing Dauntsey in case anyone is interested!). The bloke in the seats in front of me presented his ticket and the TM asked to see his Disabled Person's Railcard.

The conversation then got heated on one side. Raising his voice the passenger said "Can't you see I'm disabled?" To which the TM replied "But I still need to see your railcard Sir." Then came the reply "I'm being victimised - because I'm disabled"!

We may all have differing views about this, but mine are that yes it was pretty obvious that he was disabled, but that in itself doesn't entitle him to a third off the normal fare. Buying s disabled person's railcard entitles him to the reduction, and him being disabled entitles him to apply for the railcard. The issue the TM was dealing with was ensuring that the guy had purchased the railcard, not whether or not he was disabled.

Was he being victimised? The hell he was... But that didn't stop him perceiving victimisation where none was present.

Perception may not always come up with the correct answer.

Or did he just not have a card and was bluffing it?

I always present my railcard with my ticket, saves any embarrassment all round.

Quite. In a similar vein, nobody who knows me or sees me in the street would have any doubt that I am over 60. However, simply being over 60 does not entitle me to reduced rate travel - it entitles me to apply for a railcard and pay for it and then get reduced rate travel.

If I was ovr 60 and hadn't bothered to get a Senior Railcard then I have to pay full whack for my ticket. The same goes for disabled people.

I would have some sympathy with that view. However, perhaps "having to wait to have their ticket checked" need quantifying. It is not uncommon to find a queue at a Gateline - indeed, when I arrived in Huddersfield from Sheffield last year the queue at the Gatelines was so long that I didn't bother going outside for a cigarette and went straight on to Bradford!

So was it a few seconds? A minute? Five minutes (but that seems unlikely)? This will have a bearing on the matter because, leaving to one side the fact that some appear to think they shouldn't have been checked at all.

In other words, there may not have been a problem significant enough to need resolving in the first place.

Since when did Weymouth become two stations? Its one station with three platforms. Services can and do use any platform.


I think you are being facetious grahame. Merely because I left out the words 'scheduled' or 'service'. You will note however that at gated stations all passengers from charters are expected to wait their turn/queue to enter/exit platforms after showing their authority to travel. I and many others had to do this numerous times when we travelled on the Flying Banana.

I think you've made an unnecessary mountain of a molehill with this moan grahame.

With railcards, the TM's response should (presumably) be along the lines that the TM doesn't need to check the passenger's disability/age/etc, just to see their railcard. Aren't they given training in asking this sort of thing?

I agree completely. It's hardly an inconvenience to wait a couple of minutes.  And even with a consciencious guard trying to collect fares, the busier the train, the more likely he is to miss someone that looks down as he goes past to avoid paying.  And others may have bought a ticket for only the first part of the journey.

Of all the things we criticise the railway for, this seems to be one of the most minor complaints.

Oh yes, he had a disabled person's railcard. It just appeared that he took offence at having to show it to the TM "because he was "obviously disabled."

But at least its kept us all debating the topic for a couple of days  ;D

As I said to my then young daughter once (quite loudly) when she saw someone young and fit park in a disabled space and head for the store, you can't always tell someone is disabled just by looking at them. You can never tell, just by looking at someone, if they have filled in the form and paid the £20 needed for a Disabled Persons Railcard.

That said, only once have I been asked to show my Senior Git Railcard, and I don't look old.* That was on a train from Preston to Manchester, following the announcement "Can you have all tickets, passes, discount cards and any other railway related praphernalia ready for inspection please? Ta."

(*Do I? Oh dear...)

A tale I've recounted before:

Ticket didn't work barrier at Charing Cross. Showed it to gateline staffer who asked to see my accompanying Disabled Persons Railcard. I have no issue with that. I did take issue though when he said, "You don't look disabled."

"You don't look like a doctor," I replied as I walked off.

Recent Experience ....

Full Check of Tickets and Passes at Penzance Gate prior to IET boarding. On train check started just past Long Rock depot, less than five minutes after departure.

I've had quite a few cases where I've had my ticket checked on a London-bound service before the tail lamps have been dragged past the end of the Temple Meads platform

There was a barrier check on platform 6 at Reading this evening for an incoming service from London Waterloo using SWR staff HOWEVER there had been no on board check in the hour I had been on board.   Quite a few without tickets but unless they were heading elsewhere they wouldn’t have got through the gateline at Reading anyway.

I honestly can't remember the last time I had my ticket checked between Ealing Broadway and Taplow (which is ungated). I seem to recall a gang of revenue spooks at Taplow on arrival once or twice but certainly no more than that.

I think the last few posts back up Graham's original post. The problem is the impression gained from the enormous variability in ticket checking, from several times in one journey to not at all.

They'll catch you one day TG! :P

I think I’d come to completely the opposite conclusion.

We started off by talking, to some extent, about people new to rail travel. If they get the idea that they can have their ticket checked anywhere, anytime and most importantly, randomly, it might stop them getting the idea that they can get away without paying.

The problem with regular, predictable checks is that people might see ways to avoid them. On another forum we were recently discussing the Severn Beach line and how some passengers have sussed out that if they sit or stand in a particular part of the train, for a relatively short journey, they can avoid paying their just dues.

The local RPO team have become aware of this and keep an eye out for just such behaviour.

Over many years I have seen woeful fare avoidance on the SB line which also understates it's huge importance insofar as user numbers are concerned.

They'll never take me alive! 😂

So there I was today travelling from Oldfield Park to Chippenham, a journey of 22 minutes including a 7-minute connection at Bath.

My ticket was checked by the RPO on the train between OLF and Bath.

My ticket was checked again by a RPO/ TM just as were got out of Box Tunnel.

I then had to queue at the Gateline at the new footbridge because a crowd of people had decided to leave the station that way. There was a member of staff (unusually) on duty up there, who was doing precious little to help except tell one woman she'd put her ticket in upside down. The non-disabled gate was in use.

When I asked him why he couldn't make one of the gates bi-directional I got the reply "Simple mate - people want to come the other way." Not then they didn't and, in any case, if a disabled person had come up in the lift he would have let them out of that gate...

In the meantime, had he bothered to look around, he would have noticed that the queue of people waiting to exit was now queueing back down the stairs. The scenario certainly gave the impression that GWR are only interested in health and safety when it suits them...