Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => Shorter journeys in Devon => Topic started by: DaveHarries on July 20, 2019, 12:47:44 pm



Title: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: DaveHarries on July 20, 2019, 12:47:44 pm
Greetings all,

The GWR website advises that their next timetable changes will come in on 15th December. Good news for Barnstaple line users as well as users of the local stations between Exeter and Newton Abbot too by the looks of things.
https://www.gwr.com/about-us/media-centre/news/2019/july/biggest-timetable-change-since-the-70s-now-only-150-days-away-south-west

HTIOI,
Dave


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: REVUpminster on July 20, 2019, 02:12:16 pm
I hope there is an earlier train from Paignton on Sundays so you can  get the first London train. I also hope with a half hour Mon-Sat service they can speed up the train times between Newton Abbott and Exeter by abolishing the express train passing at Dawlish Warren.

I know it will stop the signalman playing when the express is running late and he can uses tricks (skill) like using the bi-directional signalling at Dawlish to allow an express to pass.

The trains also need speeding up between Paignton and Newton Abbot but I think there are track problems.
Have they made passive provision for new stations at Edginswell (planning permission runs out this November) and Marsh Barton as we live in hope.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: Southernman on July 20, 2019, 06:00:20 pm
There was some question about the Barnstaple services terminating at Exeter St Davids rather than Exeter Central when the timetable is recast.

I wonder if that can now be clarified as it would certainly be a backwards step (and a change of trains or a walk up a steep hill) for those wishing to visit Exeter City centre  and would take the gloss off the timetable improvements.



Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: IndustryInsider on July 20, 2019, 06:09:30 pm
St. James as far as I know.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: REVUpminster on July 20, 2019, 09:06:40 pm
Surely the trains will be reversing at Exmouth Junction siding (Morrisons) running empty from Exeter Central although I see in the summer timetable the Okehampton trains stop at St James before detraining and reversing.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: phile on July 20, 2019, 10:02:48 pm
Surely the trains will be reversing at Exmouth Junction siding (Morrisons) running empty from Exeter Central although I see in the summer timetable the Okehampton trains stop at St James before detraining and reversing.

Of course.   Run in service to St James Park and then go and sit/cross over in the siding by Morrisons at Exmouth Jcn until it is time to come back


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: plymothian on July 21, 2019, 08:31:10 pm
The Devon Metro timetable will be half hourly Exmouth - Paignton, alternating between fast (Exmouth - Lympstone - Topsham - Newcourt - Digby - Exeter Central - St David's - Dawlish - Teignmouth - Newton - Torre - Torquay - Paignton) and all stopper using 4 car 150s.

Barnstaple - St James Park hourly using 158s/16x.

Still in the potential offing Okehampton - Exeter 3 morning, 3 evening services using 143s.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: DaveHarries on July 21, 2019, 10:08:06 pm
Still in the potential offing Okehampton - Exeter 3 morning, 3 evening services using 143s.
Good move but I guess may not happen in the December 2019 changes unless GWR have come up with something. Could be spaced 30 minutes apart from the Barnstaple trains perhaps.

Dave


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: PhilWakely on July 22, 2019, 08:27:16 am
Still in the potential offing Okehampton - Exeter 3 morning, 3 evening services using 143s.
Good move but I guess may not happen in the December 2019 changes unless GWR have come up with something. Could be spaced 30 minutes apart from the Barnstaple trains perhaps.

Dave

I was under the impression that the 143s were off-lease in December


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: plymothian on July 22, 2019, 09:22:36 am
Still in the potential offing Okehampton - Exeter 3 morning, 3 evening services using 143s.
Good move but I guess may not happen in the December 2019 changes unless GWR have come up with something. Could be spaced 30 minutes apart from the Barnstaple trains perhaps.

Dave

I was under the impression that the 143s were off-lease in December

GWR own 2 outright.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: The Tall Controller on July 22, 2019, 02:15:59 pm
Class 143s can't be used after 31 December, unless fitted with all the disability mod-comms (which none are receiving).


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: bignosemac on July 23, 2019, 12:14:36 am
They could be used if the Secretary of State for Transport grants derogations.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: Robin Summerhill on July 23, 2019, 09:34:50 am
They could be used if the Secretary of State for Transport grants derogations.

Whoever that might be by the end of the week...


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: DaveHarries on July 23, 2019, 09:49:04 pm
The Devon Metro timetable will be half hourly Exmouth - Paignton, alternating between fast (Exmouth - Lympstone - Topsham - Newcourt - Digby - Exeter Central - St David's - Dawlish - Teignmouth - Newton - Torre - Torquay - Paignton) and all stopper using 4 car 150s.

Barnstaple - St James Park hourly using 158s/16x.

Still in the potential offing Okehampton - Exeter 3 morning, 3 evening services using 143s.
Indeed so. Someone on a railway discussion site made the latest info, described as a "Confirmed plan based on timetable offer" and dated July 2019, available as a download. Having read the file end-to-end there are some really good improvements coming up for December. In respect of the Barnstaple line the document - which is an official GWR one - says that, in addition to Mondays to Saturdays, the Barnstaple line will also be hourly on Sundays with trains terminating at St. James Park.

Certainly still not a final version but I like what I read.

Dave


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: trainbuff on July 23, 2019, 10:45:13 pm
They could be used if the Secretary of State for Transport grants derogations.

More likely if they simply locked the toilet out of use


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: REVUpminster on July 24, 2019, 08:06:19 pm
The Devon Metro timetable will be half hourly Exmouth - Paignton, alternating between fast (Exmouth - Lympstone - Topsham - Newcourt - Digby - Exeter Central - St David's - Dawlish - Teignmouth - Newton - Torre - Torquay - Paignton) and all stopper using 4 car 150s.

Barnstaple - St James Park hourly using 158s/16x.

Still in the potential offing Okehampton - Exeter 3 morning, 3 evening services using 143s.

I still don't understand why a metro service has non stopping services. Exmouth because it is single line should have a regular half hour interval but will Dawlish Teignmouth and Paignton. Paignton will be the place where late running trains will need a generous layover time to regulate the service. It may have to be as the fastest running time Exmouth to Paignton is 1hr 28m so a train leaving Exmouth at 10.30 will arrive at 1158. It would have to be held at Paignton until 1227 to arrive back at Exmouth at 13.55 to make the 14.00. Of course it could leave at 12.15 but it will have to lose time somewhere (Dawlish Warren or Exeter St David's) for a path down to Exmouth.

It does not seem that commuter friendly for a metro if the new service is slower than the old irregular timings.

I know this is a difficult line to timetable but when I tried some timings a few years ago when the Devon metro was first mooted I thought it would be easier to timetable a Barnstaple Exmouth service with a half hour shuttle between Exeter St David's and Exmouth and Paignton Exeter Central service.

To understand how the service would work a train would run Barnstaple-Exmouth-St David's-Exmouth-Barnstaple.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: DaveHarries on July 24, 2019, 11:44:36 pm
The Devon Metro timetable will be half hourly Exmouth - Paignton, alternating between fast (Exmouth - Lympstone - Topsham - Newcourt - Digby - Exeter Central - St David's - Dawlish - Teignmouth - Newton - Torre - Torquay - Paignton) and all stopper using 4 car 150s.

Barnstaple - St James Park hourly using 158s/16x.
From what I have heard:

- On Mondays to Saturdays:
- Barnstaple trains to run hourly on a recast timetable and terminate at St. James Park using Class 158 traction. There will be an earlier first train from Barnstaple which will arrive into Exeter at around 0730 (this 0730 arrival may be Mondays to Fridays only: no idea if it will operate on Saturdays). The new timetable will be designed to offer a better overall service between Exeter and Barnstaple.

- Stops (stopping patterns?) on Barnstaple trains are amended.

- Paignton trains are enhanced to half-hourly with those which currently terminate at / start from Newton Abbot now running through to Exmouth. I have heard that the calling pattern between Paignton and Exeter St. Davids will be something like this:

From Paignton to Exmouth:
- one per hour calling Torquay, Torre, Newton Abbot, Teignmouth and Dawlish. Some of these will also call at Dawlish Warren on Saturdays.
- one per hour calling all stations

From Exmouth to Paignton:
- one per hour calling Dawlish, Teignmouth, Newton Abbot, Torre, Torquay & Paignton. Some will also call at Dawlish Warren on Saturdays.
- one per hour calling all stations.

The trains will not be clockface in every hour due to pathing for faster services. Exmouth to Exeter services will remain half hourly.

On Sundays:
- Barnstaple trains to run hourly on a recast timetable and terminate at St. James Park using Class 158 traction. This will be a big improvement on the current Sunday service which is only 7 trains each way: I hope it will be well used.

- Paignton to Exmouth trains will run hourly calling at all stations between Paignton and Exeter giving an improved Sunday frequency.

HTIOI,
Dave


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: REVUpminster on July 25, 2019, 07:30:24 am
If pathing for a faster train means stuck at Dawlish Warren then it's not an improvement. The Metro trains should be timed to arrive and depart after the express is timetabled at Newton Abbot or Exeter. This would provide better interchange for passengers wanting Dawlish and Teignmouth.

Paignton passengers would suffer a longer wait at Newton Abbot for the express unless they stayed on the train to Exeter by which time an express would not be far behind but a metro service is for commuters and Paignton and Torquay have become commuter towns for Exeter because that's where the jobs are. The metro cannot beat the car but then there is no parking aggro.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: DaveHarries on August 11, 2019, 07:08:57 pm
For anybody interested the GWR timetables are now live on RealTimeTrains. Links to times for Barnstaple:

- Weekdays: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BNP/2019/12/16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
- Saturdays: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BNP/2019/12/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
- Sundays: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BNP/2019/12/15/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

HTIOI,
Dave


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: REVUpminster on August 13, 2019, 07:43:14 am
For anybody interested the GWR timetables are now live on RealTimeTrains. Links to times for Barnstaple:

- Weekdays: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BNP/2019/12/16/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
- Saturdays: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BNP/2019/12/21/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt
- Sundays: http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/BNP/2019/12/15/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt

HTIOI,
Dave

Thanks for a link I always have trouble with accessing. Adapting it for Paignton the last train runs a few minutes later but no longer stops after Dawlish so arrives at Exeter earlier than now. Still love to stick the trains in Dawlish Warren to allow the express to pass hopefully on time.

Sunday afternoon/evening looks better but no early train and I wonder if the connections are any better.

The Plymouth/Penzance seem to be leaving Paddington xx04 and the Exeter/Paignton xx37 except for the first trains when it's reversed and there is still that oddity of 1C91 being overtaken by 1C92 at Exeter and 1C91 becomes the local. I always wondered if 1C91 was a candidate for splitting  a 10 car and the front half being the local and the rear half making a service back to London or Bristol.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: xmth on August 28, 2019, 04:05:07 pm
Will there be enough DMUs to run the planned services in Devon and Cornwall from December? At the present time GWR regularly struggle to fulfil 3 / 4 car diagrams as there really is no spare capacity, meaning that short formed trains are a regular occurrence.

One Exmouth/Barnstaple/Paignton diagram is currently 2 car. One 150/2 currently works in the Bristol area.

By the 31st December all eight of the 143s must leave and there are also question marks over how long the 3 x Angel 150/2s will remain; also the future of the 2 x 150/0s is unclear.

As I understand it a couple of Turbos will be able to switch move from Reading to Bristol from the start of the new timetable. No more will be able to transfer until the Flex trains are in service but, on present progress, that isnít going to be any time soon!

I believe that there are currently 10 Castle Class diagrams, so not much more leeway there. I am open to correction on this one.

Three 3 car 158s have to be found to work the Tarka Line.

I read that a number of 3 car 158s are being converted to 2 cars; where will these be used? 158s are needed for the Brighton services; will these be 2 or 3 cars?

Away from the summer months I calculate that GWR needs 20 x 150s to operate the planned Devon and Cornwall branch services, the exact number that they have. No fat there!

Is anyone able to provide some clarification on these issues?


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: Charlie (in Gloucester) on August 28, 2019, 05:31:48 pm
Will there be enough DMUs to run the planned services in Devon and Cornwall from December? At the present time GWR regularly struggle to fulfil 3 / 4 car diagrams as there really is no spare capacity, meaning that short formed trains are a regular occurrence.

One Exmouth/Barnstaple/Paignton diagram is currently 2 car. One 150/2 currently works in the Bristol area.

By the 31st December all eight of the 143s must leave and there are also question marks over how long the 3 x Angel 150/2s will remain; also the future of the 2 x 150/0s is unclear.

As I understand it a couple of Turbos will be able to switch move from Reading to Bristol from the start of the new timetable. No more will be able to transfer until the Flex trains are in service but, on present progress, that isnít going to be any time soon!

I believe that there are currently 10 Castle Class diagrams, so not much more leeway there. I am open to correction on this one.

Three 3 car 158s have to be found to work the Tarka Line.

I read that a number of 3 car 158s are being converted to 2 cars; where will these be used? 158s are needed for the Brighton services; will these be 2 or 3 cars?

Away from the summer months I calculate that GWR needs 20 x 150s to operate the planned Devon and Cornwall branch services, the exact number that they have. No fat there!

Is anyone able to provide some clarification on these issues?


GWR have spent an extra year working on the timetable to ensure that it is ship shape, I am sure enough that the planning teams have allocated trains to routes where appropriate. Unfortunately, some capacity improvements will be postponed due to various changes to plans around the Thames  Valley however all that means is retention of more sprinters.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: REVUpminster on August 28, 2019, 07:04:46 pm
Not from knowledge but observation there seems to be more 150/2s in pairs and 143's in pairs this summer although with the occasional 2 coach train still runs. I just bet they will not let the 143s go. In the North they already keeping some into 2020.

Also the artists impression of the rebuilt Exeter Depot showed 3 coach 158s

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=20516.15


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: Charlie (in Gloucester) on August 28, 2019, 10:09:39 pm
Not from knowledge but observation there seems to be more 150/2s in pairs and 143's in pairs this summer although with the occasional 2 coach train still runs. I just bet they will not let the 143s go. In the North they already keeping some into 2020.

Also the artists impression of the rebuilt Exeter Depot showed 3 coach 158s

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=20516.15

I really donít think the artist who designed those images is the same person who decides the train lengths come December   ;)


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: REVUpminster on August 28, 2019, 10:24:17 pm
Not from knowledge but observation there seems to be more 150/2s in pairs and 143's in pairs this summer although with the occasional 2 coach train still runs. I just bet they will not let the 143s go. In the North they already keeping some into 2020.

Also the artists impression of the rebuilt Exeter Depot showed 3 coach 158s

http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=20516.15

I really donít think the artist who designed those images is the same person who decides the train lengths come December   ;)

Commercial artists work to a brief. They are told to illustrate 3 coach trains that look like 158s not what they think might be used.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: plymothian on August 29, 2019, 07:24:33 am
Will there be enough DMUs to run the planned services in Devon and Cornwall from December? At the present time GWR regularly struggle to fulfil 3 / 4 car diagrams as there really is no spare capacity, meaning that short formed trains are a regular occurrence.


Of course there aren't.  And the local management are well aware there won't be.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: grahame on August 29, 2019, 08:24:09 am
There are currently 11 x 3 car 158s on the fleet, made up from 15 x 2 car and 1 x 3 car originally - i.e. there are 10 units with extra driving cabs in the middle.

As an example, GWR could split 6 of the 3 car 158s,  leaving 5 3 car units and giving them 9 2 car rather than 6 3 car trains - net gain of 3 trains.    There are - what - 6 or 7 143s so that would replace a half of them, and then a single 3 car 158 running in place of 2 x 143 (would that change the number of seats much?) would replace the other half of the 143 fleet.    Strikes me as a balancing act ... and wonder if it might just overbalance.   Said to be more Castles live  in service and less away for refit too.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: Timmer on August 29, 2019, 09:37:43 am
Simple solution is to have more Castles but oooooooz gonna pay for it!


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: paul7755 on August 29, 2019, 01:28:48 pm
From a post in the wnxx forum, the 158 status in early December is intended to be:

7 x 3 cars:
158798, 158956-158961

11x 2 cars:
158745, 158747, 158750, 158751,
158760, 158761, 158762, 158763,
158764, 158765, 158766

Paul


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: phile on August 29, 2019, 08:07:38 pm
From a post in the wnxx forum, the 158 status in early December is intended to be:

7 x 3 cars:
158798, 158956-158961

11x 2 cars:
158745, 158747, 158750, 158751,
158760, 158761, 158762, 158763,
158764, 158765, 158766

Paul

Wasn't that altered at a later stage.   There is now no 158960 and there is a 2 Car 158769.


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: paul7755 on August 30, 2019, 11:06:52 am
From a post in the wnxx forum, the 158 status in early December is intended to be:

7 x 3 cars:
158798, 158956-158961

11x 2 cars:
158745, 158747, 158750, 158751,
158760, 158761, 158762, 158763,
158764, 158765, 158766

Paul

Wasn't that altered at a later stage.   There is now no 158960 and there is a 2 Car 158769.
Quite possibly, I expect actual painted numbers are of less importance than the final ratio of two and three car units.  Presumably the rearrangement will take place gradually over a few months.

Paul


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: DaveHarries on September 29, 2019, 11:29:32 pm
If pathing for a faster train means stuck at Dawlish Warren then it's not an improvement. The Metro trains should be timed to arrive and depart after the express is timetabled at Newton Abbot or Exeter. This would provide better interchange for passengers wanting Dawlish and Teignmouth.
One thing I have noticed from looking on RealTimeTrans website is that there are a few non-HST services between Exeter and Penzance which, except for (I think) one, only call at Newton Abbot, Totnes and Ivybridge when running Exeter to Plymouth. One or two of those are responsible for some of the waits at Dawlish Warren.

Dave


Title: Re: GWR December 2019 TT
Post by: Apedlar12 on October 13, 2019, 01:02:25 pm
From a post in the wnxx forum, the 158 status in early December is intended to be:

7 x 3 cars:
158798, 158956-158961

11x 2 cars:
158745, 158747, 158750, 158751,
158760, 158761, 158762, 158763,
158764, 158765, 158766

Paul

Yes, it was changed so that the 7 remaining 3 car sets would be 798, 950-955; which did seem to be the case but I have now seen more information from WNXX suggesting that 952 and 953 were to be reformed imminently and I have just seen 158745 with 150261 on their way down to Penzance so this does seem like it has happened already as 745 was the 2 hybrid coaches from 952 and 953 which also means that 762 and 750 should now be out :)

Current 158s:

3 Car - 158950-951, 954-959 & 798

2 Car - 158745, 749, 750, 762, 763, 766, 767 & 769



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