Great Western Coffee Shop

When it was announced that the GWR IETs would not have buffets, a greatly improved trolley service was promised, see below for details.
NONE of these improvements have been realised.

Improved trolleys that keep things hot or cold. NOT DELIVERED the trolleys are like those used on other regional or secondary routes.

Hot food from the trolley, sunk without trace.

Two trolleys on 5+5 trains, seldom achieved. Often only one and sometimes none.

If the trolley is even on board, it is often static or hidden in first class.

Is it therefore time to admit that downgrading from a buffet to a trolley was a failed experiment, and that buffets should be added.
IETs used by other operators DO have buffets after all.

(Link to a previous meet the manager session in which various improvements were promised:  http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15945.0 )

I just don’t accept the premise of this question. We are now selling more food and drink than we were when we had HSTs with buffets. I accept the transition has been tougher than we would have liked but progress is being made to solve the issues we face and our new terms and conditions for catering staff is making it easier to cover shifts, especially at weekends. Removing hard won seats for an old fashioned buffet in an environment where fewer and fewer customers wish to leave their seats is not sensible and the cost would £Ms which would never be recovered - and that’s before we even think of how long each train would be out of service for. The numbers don’t add up!

Our move to an all at seat service is not and never was an 'experiment' It was a well planned and thought through change which despite being logistically challenging is starting to prove beyond doubt that it is the right strategy on these very long trains and will prove to be highly successful. We do understand that it is not perfect. We recognise that with a trolley service the customers are not in control of when the trolley arrives at their seat. We are working very hard to deliver the service.

Regarding hot food, we continue research into ways to improve our catering offer and that includes hot food. We are developing a trolley that can deliver hot food products.

In my view, by far the worst feature of the GWR IETs is the ban on buffets.
Providing a buffet is part of running an inter-city train service. Other TOCs have buffets even on new trains.

A trolley, more often than not  hiding in first class, static or otherwise unavailable is a very poor substitute. This is not just my view. Look on trip advisor ! "not even a buffet" is a frequent complaint.

At the end of the day I accept there will be a small set of customers who prefer a buffet but the current options allows us to offer more seats and provide customers a service of refreshments to their seat. That is one of the reasons we are now seeing growth in catering sales year on year after years of decline and a 3% increase in customer satisfaction with on board services in last NRPS survey by Transport Focus.

I would also add our own research shows greater customer satisfaction with the at seat service as opposed to the buffet service amongst customers with varying journey times.

While I accept we had complaints from customers about lack of catering during IET introduction these have fallen substantially since introducing the trains.

Having noted the reference to GWR on Trip Advisor I would note that our Pullman catering operation scores 4.5/5 and is ranked in Top 1000 restaurants in London out of c20,000.

Also worth noting that over half of catering complaints in recent weeks have been from first class customers rather than standard where the trolley service remains in first.

I agree that the Pullman service is excellent and well deserving of the many positive reviews on trip advisor, two of which are from me.
I greatly enjoy the Pullman.

However I do not feel that the excellent Pullman service justifies the removal of the buffet, and in practice the removal of all catering  on those services with no available trolley.

On a recent trip in first class I was not able to buy any wine or beer from the trolley which was hiding in first class "because the card machine is broken"  I offered cash, but the trolley operator was "unable" to accept that either.

I am not convinced that having to search for the often static trolley is better than a proper buffet.

I don’t think I am suggesting the Pullman should be delivered at the expense of other aspects of catering delivery.

There are still too many occasions when the delivery of catering at seat is not as good as it should be. We can see from our reports this is getting better but there is more work to do and we are focused on getting this addressed and recruiting more colleagues.

Whilst I am reassured that steps are being taken to improve the trolley service, why were suitable staff not recruited initially ? The downgrade to trolley catering was known about in plenty of time to recruit staff.
We have had nearly two years of no trolley/static trolley/trolley in other half of the train/trolley hiding in first.

Why not get it right from the beginning?

I think Mark hinted at the reason(s) earlier in the thread

Good to see the question made it to the shortlist - I can only imagine the conspiracy theory accusations that would have been levelled otherwise.

Anyway, no chance of the return of a buffet, and trolley service provision promised to improve in both content and availability.  Bacon rolls and filter coffee were being provided from the trolley on my last IET trip.

Let’s keep a watching brief on the trolley situation, but move on from buffet discussions!

Took my wife and daughter up to London yesterday (and hence missed the 'live event') for just their second IET experience.  Up on the Golden Hind from Exeter and back on the 19:03.

Their first experience (in both directions) was in a 2x5-car which had a trolley 'in the other unit'.  Yesterday, both services were 9-car units and within 10 minutes of joining the train, the rather apologetic call of 'anyone for refreshments' was heard in our carriage. Sadly, neither trolley had hot water available and the selection of food was restricted to packets of crisps and biscuits.

It was extremely good planning to visit Pumpkins before boarding!

Despite the assurances offered by Mark Hopwood, I am very doubtful indeed about the trolley service being significantly and consistently improved. And then provided reliably in both portions of a train, even on Sundays.
They had a couple of years to recruit staff and make the trolley service work properly, and failed miserably.
We have heard very similar re-assurances before, from a previous meet the manager session on these forums.

Whilst GWR have said in effect "no way" regarding buffets, the next operator might be better in this respect.

Unlikely given the DfT hand in all of this. But maybe I detect an agreement with IndustryInsider that we move on from the comparison with buffets until such a time as a new franchise is on the cards, else the subject risks being staler than a 1970s BR ham sandwich.

Well it is very strange then that on other web fora it has been admitted by well known insiders that the market research carried out that returned preference for trollies rather than buffets was carried out after the DFT signed off the trains.

Welcome, also reported on THIS forum, that the survey showing the alleged preference for a trolley was done AFTER the new trains were specified without buffets.
No doubt then as to what result was required from the survey.
The purpose of such surveys is to justify decisions already taken.

This thread http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15945.0 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=15945.0) discusses the downgrade from buffets to just a trolley, and also contains promises about the greatly improved trolley service that was promised.
These promises have become future aspirations, that are still being worked on after a couple of years.

Hello fintan_stack and welcome to the forum - your first post and a brave one.  Buffet v Trolley seems at times to be as emotive here as Remain v Brexit!!

A survey / market research undertaken after a decision has been taken stands the risk of being branded as being biased / designed to have an outcome in line with the decision (as member Broadgage suggests in his post that has been made while I have been writing), though in practise I doubt whether a decision taken somewhere in Horseferry Road would have changed the actual views of passengers from Cardiff or Taunton to London overnight.   

I would also suspect that there wouldn't have been a single isolated piece of research - rather there would have been reports and evaluations based and perhaps other researches over a period - the whole business of on-train catering has been going on a while - the first restaurant car dating back to 1879.   I've not been able to date the first buffet car - it would really require a corridor train - but they've been around rather a long time too.  So a lot of experience too prior to a decision.

We do not see the introduction of the trolley as a downgrade in the service although I accept that there is work to be done to deliver the service consistently.  We are working through the issues and trying to resolve these as quickly as possible. 

Thank you, I agree we should focus on the trolleys and improving this service.  Pleased to hear you had a good service last time you travelled on an IET.

Very disappointing to hear that your trip with your wife and daughter was not what it should have been.  Helpful to know the services you travelled on so I can investigate.

We are working through services, reviewing the plan to ensure we have sufficient equipment and staff to run a robust and consistent trolley service.  It is taking time but I am confident we can deliver this.

I agree.  We have come so far already and it is important we look to the future and focus on improving the customer experience and the elements that are within our control, such as the trolley.

Even I would reluctantly accept the trolley service (though still considering this to be a downgrade over a buffet) If it met all the following conditions.

Provided reliably in both portions of a 5+5 train. (as promised two years ago)
Two trolleys on a 9 car unless the train is very lightly loaded. (as promised two years ago)
Trolley to pass through at least every 30 minutes, more frequently if possible. Even a 29 minute wait is still worse than walking to the buffet.
To reliably stock CHILLED beer*, spirits* with a choice of mixers*, ICE CUBES* chilled fruit juice, sandwiches, HOT bacon* rolls and at least one other hot snack. REAL COFFEE.

Trolley to be available throughout that part of the journey for which it is advertised. No more going through once, and then hiding for the rest of the journey.
No more static trolleys except during conditions of exceptional crowding, which should be rare.

Even in the unlikely case of these conditions being met, I would still consider the trolley to be a downgrade if compared to be proper buffet.
However we must move with the times and accept that a certain amount of downgrading is unavoidable with new trains. The present degree of downgrading does seem excessive to me.

*I mention here only MY favourites, other products are needed for more general tastes.

Apart from the limited selection (and good to hear that bacon rolls are back on the agenda), my main grumble is when, on a 90 min journey, the trolley comes through for the first time 10 mins before I am getting off. I'm not sure what the answer to that is, as the busier the trolley is, the longer it will take to pass through the train.  On a 9 car set maybe one moving and one static trolley is the answer, with announcements to let people know.  That's probably not realistic on a 5 car set, but I guess on those they get through the train quicker.

There is always the option, excepting crowded services, of going and finding the trolley oneself.

Of course, absent of location announcements, you have the coin toss of which direction to set off in.

That's an interesting point. I have always felt that going to find the trolley is unlikely to be helpful in general, as having several people crowding around as it tries to make it's way through the train is going to cause unnecessary congestion and delay it's journey even more.  It might never get beyond half way down the first carriage if everyone were to do it. Interested in what others think though as to whether it's the "done" thing.

For myself, the "etiquette" would be to wait for the trolley unless there's an onboard announcement that the trolley is staying put in a particular coach. The weakness in this is that it rather relies on an announcement always being made it the trolley is static.

....and what then about the security implications of passengers leaving their luggage unattended whilst searching for the trolley.  Are there not constant PA reminders about that?  And yes, I know the same issue arises with a fixed buffet.  Much better that the trolley comes to you.  I think that MarkH hinted that things will improve.  My last two trips had the trolley visit at least twice during the three hour journey.

I've made relatively few long distance IET journeys since their introduction. A combination of personal circumstances and where I've lived in recent years.

I have though sought out the trolley on a couple of occasions. Once it was static (no announcement), and the other time it was mid carriage and I waited in a vestibule so as not to further block the aisle or inconvenience the trolley staff mid carriage.

A consistent well stocked trolley service is perfectly acceptable to me. I understand the reasons and explanations given by Mark Hopwood.

What I would like to see though is a step change in Pullman provision. Here's my thoughts on that as posted on another forum...

Take the entire time First Group have been majority operators of the Great(er) Western franchise. In 1999 there were 11 breakfast Pullman services, 11 lunch/dinner Pullman services, and 6 Pullman Bistro services. A total of 28 weekday services offering full restaurant menus. And that total was in a timetable when fewer long distance services were operated to and from Paddington. Today there are 10 Pullman services.

Think what could be done today with the uniform fleet of fully equipped kitchens that GWR have at their disposal.

Buffets are out. That's perfectly acceptable to me. I understand that the trolleys are showing modest profit. Now let's see a full service restaurant offering across a couple dozen services once again. Push the Pullman brand, advertise, innovate. Get those off peak 1st Class seats filled by offering a combined ticket/meal product.

If GWR need a chef, I can dust off my whites. I'll have to let the trousers and jackets out, but the hat still fits!

I would certainly be in favour of re-instating more of the Pullmans that never re appeared after being "temporarily" withdrawn after the Hatfield accident.

We keep hearing about the advantages of a uniform train fleet all with kitchens, so let more use be made of these facilities.

I remain far from happy at the ban on buffets, progress I know but still regrettable.

Indeed and I have done this, with only limited success. On locating the hidden trolley it was "shut for stock taking" with nearly an hour of the journey to London remaining.
Hunting down the static trolley seems to rather negate the alleged advantage of a trolley.

I personally find that neither a buffet nor a trolley works well for me on a train journey if I want eats / drinks.  As a lone traveller I'm reluctant to leave my stuff or loose my seat as I visit the buffet, and the trolley visits feel occasional and random, as do what the trolley is carrying. And - for me - when we argue between the options we're looking at Hobson's choice.

Is there another way, then?  Our modern trains are fitted with Wifi, and many or even most of our modern passengers are fitted with personal communication devices. Taking a leaf out of establishments such as JD Wetherspoon - could orders not be placed and paid at seats, and delivered by customer hosts?  This is naturally a country wide / national question so perhaps not for "Ask the MD". Leaving Exeter for Salisbury I'll be with SWR, for Westbury with GWR and for Bristol with XC. But just how much could technology offer?  Take it further - order before you board; stock levels held online so you know if there's still a suitable sandwich left in stock on the train. But I worry that even if such a system were planned, would it be as hard as the reservation system seems to be to get robustly operational?

For the present ... I'll treat the trolley as a little luxury that it's my good fortune to be able to use if it comes by at the right time and with stock.  for my Taunton trip last Sunday, the luxury didn't deliver when it could or should have done in either direction. I shrug my shoulders; having a train to get me to appointments or home is far more important that being refreshed when in the bigger picture, delaying eating and drinking is no more than an irritant. But I also note that is my view is common, there's a big opportunity for the TOCs or their concessions to provide a much desired service that will bring improved customer satisfaction and improved income too.

---

Having looked further ahead ... I will look back at the immediate and thank Mark for the attention that's being given to the current less than reliable on board refreshment service.  GWR lost two sales from me on Sunday ... one because the trolley only arrived late in the journey (and lacking milk!), and the other because there was no trolley on the train.

That "order on line (in some sense) and deliver to your seat" service is what VTEC (as it became) bid and LNER still offer. EC bidders were encouraged to submit ideas like that, to be judged in the beauty contest. That part of the Azuma service was written into the franchise agreement, though where that stands now I've no idea. Nothing similar happened with FGWR as there wasn't a proper franchise competition for it to happen in (for one thing).

Does anyone know how well the LNER food service is performing in reality?

For me the problem with the trolley is that it is over complicated.  Hot water comes from urn which has to be plugged in to heat up.  So if it has not been turned on you have to wait 20 minutes so the trolley can't operate until then. 

Also when you run out of water the urn is so heavy that it cannot be carried so the trolley has to return to the urn location which also takes time and causes delay doing so.

Why not have a couple of portable urns like used in first class.  Then when one runs out a member of staff could go and fill one up again while the trolley continues to operate.  (Perhaps the Train Manager could do this ?)

"perhaps the train manager could do this"

STRIKE bruvvers. Fat cat shareholders attempt to downgrade train managers to trolley operatives. STRIKE.
Fat cats will be making drivers open the doors next, whilst safety critical train managers are told to sell kit kats. STRIKE.

The drivers DO now open the doors.

Thank you @Grahame and @Broadgage for your welcome and engagement. No engagement from "the man" on the subject though, and latterly he says he only wants to talk trollies.  >:(

Chatted to the nice trolley person this morning on my way to the big beer festival in London. While the train was stopped mind you, due to the pantograph being faulty, we went forward on diesel according to an announcement, they said many trollies are static due to staff ailments/restrictions or trolley defects. They recommended a cold drink vice the tea/coffee, water was not hot enough. It was a 9 car however so if you really were in need of the caffeine they'd text message the other host to bring you one down in a bag. Was that in the spec ?

Some staff are too good to the company it seems.

I have said this previously however I do believe that the right crew make the journey so much easier. GWR have some of the best crew compared to other intercity operators. An example: The other week I was travelling on the 15:36 from Paddington to Cheltenham alighting at Gloucester. The Train Manager was making regular announcements regarding the quiet carriage and the fact that there were no seat reservations, and the catering crew were working together to get orders from the kitchen as quickly as possible and even with some help from the TM as he had completed (thorough) ticket checks.

I must say I have had journeys where the catering announcements were non existent, and the TM walked around with the ticket printer however I am 99% sure he wasn’t actually doing checks, nor any announcements.

Quotes are from the headline "meet the manager" thread (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22016.msg271095#msg271095) ... I'm replying here to keep the buffet / trolley stuff discussions in one place so it's easier to get the whole discussion.


On train refreshments are caught between a rock and a hard place - buffets are far from perfect and trolleys are far from perfect too.  And passengers are very much individuals - both in terms of personal choice and in terms of journey metrics. 

The current fare system by general consent is riddled with curiosities, sometime translated as "not fit for purpose", but no-one has grasped the nettle and done a root and branch change. That's because there would be winners and losers. The winners would settle down to the new fares they loved and become naturalised with them in weeks but the losers would be incensed for years at how it was worse for them, and would be picking holes in the new system's teething problems and new wrinkles.  The same metrics apply to refreshment systems though we're further along the way - the changes have been made, the winners are quietly enjoying their new positives and those who have lost what worked for them remain unhappy, and looking to pick any holes they can / point out teething troubles in the new system.

It is worthwhile to provide train operators, and behind them train providers and specifying / contracting authorities with ongoing constructive criticism.  Whether you like the new system or not, feedback on teething troubles is useful - both in terms of new ideas and in terms of showing the relative strengths of concerns. But note that the rail industry and those behind them understand deeply what's going on for the most part, and will probably have heard and (I hope) listened to most ideas already - so your rate of return on input may be pretty low.  And if your input is "bring back the buffet", at this time you're asking for something that would be pretty expensive involving a refit of trains very new and not due for any form of refit in the near future.

I cannot talk for Mark Hopwood.  But I can put myself in his shoes. And I can note the use of the word "now" in the  quote from a decade ago too.  Given the trains into which the GWR team have no doubt had considerable input, but  final decisions are not theirs, the best was forward for the GWR team in to grow and work with what they have - may not be perfect, but it still provides food and drink during the long move.  And it can be moved up if we all work it through initial adjustments and teething from merely "providing" to "good" and perhaps "darned good". We will never reach perfect for everyone - but then no system I've seen suggested yet is.

Why would adding a buffet be as expensive and disruptive as suggested by those opposed to buffets ?

Years ago I suggested that a possibly short term "no buffet" policy by GWR would in effect be locking in this downgrade for decades to come.
Advocates of IETs pointed out that these trains are of a modular design and that the ability to readily retrofit a buffet was an "essential requirement"
So how about making use of this "essential requirement" ?

And of course early on in the IET saga, criticism of the "no buffet" ruling by GWR was answered by stating that the new trains widely described as "commuter style" were in fact largely intended for the shorter routes, and that HSTs WITH BUFFETS would be retained for the Cornish services.
Then after a suitable interval it was announced that IETs would also be used on the Cornish routes, but that this later or follow on order for more IETs "could" be to a higher specification and "might" include buffets.
Then it was decided that a uniformly downgraded fleet was preferable.

So by degrees we have moved from proper inter-city trains to new shorter DMUs without buffets, even on some of the longest routes in the country. Progress.

Aren't you now just repeating the same things that you've said on numerous occasions over the last year or so? We know your views, Mark Hopwood knows your views, and I don't think it adds anything to the forum to keep repeating them every few days, though happy for others to disagree. I thought a couple of days ago that there was a glimmer of hope that following Mark's comments on the subject that we could now look ahead and provide constructive comment on how the trolley service is working, but still you keep repeating yourself like a broken record.  As a relative newcomer to the forum, the biggest turn off for me is the constant repetition of this topic, with nothing new being added to the discussion.

I am sorry that you feel like that.
I feel that my remarks regarding the ability to add a buffet being "an essential requirement" of the IETs to be new or newish. I do not recall mentioning this "essential requirement" for some years. And it is in my view a fair answer to those who state that retrofitting a buffet might be nice but would be unreasonably costly or disruptive.

I have also said that I would reluctantly accept the downgrade to a trolley if this was done properly, reliably provided in both portions of a train, even on Sundays, and passing through every 30 minutes.

I'm not opposed to buffets, but I think 'the horse has bolted' here. While simply adding a micro-buffet counter could be relatively simple, it does cost seats as others have said. If GWR had wanted a buffet, the sensible thing to have done would have been to co-locate the kitchen and buffet together between first and standard class, as BR did with both the IC125 and IC225 fleets. While that would probably still be slightly larger than the IET kitchen, resulting in loss of a few seats, it would probably take up less space than the alternative and would ensure the full range of items the kitchen can produce are available from the buffet. To get that now you would have to reconfigure at least two vehicles (the first class driving car and adjacent FO), which would indeed be quite disruptive.

I do think it is regrettable that the original plan to retain IC125s on Paddington-Plymouth/Penzance services was dropped, though loss of the buffet is not the only reason I think that was a bad move. More important in my view is that GWR opted for a large number of 5-car sets. Also, only a very small portion (percentage wise) of the route that is electrified, meaning the underfloor engines are running for longer and possibly using more fuel than an IC125 would (we would need to see fuel consumption figures for both types to answer that though). Coming back to the 5-car sets, I think the decision to have so many of those killed the idea of a buffet (I'm surprised there's even a kitchen on the 5-car 800s given the DfT's presure to increase the number of seats, see also 2+3 seating staying on the Turbos). There should only have been around 14-20 5-car 800s in my view, everything else should have either been a retained IC125 or a 9-car IET.

Actually, I regret the passing of the buffet too, but my perception is that you have been very repetitive on the whole subject for some time, and take no opportunity to repeat your general views whenever something is posted on the subject. Apart from my boredom, which of course I can take or leave, now the forum has semi-official status, I'm sure GWR gets no value from hearing the same arguments trotted out on a subject which Mark has made clear is not going to be changed, and it probably doesn't help its general credibility in the eyes of GWR. I'm just wondering how long you're going to keep banging on about it?

In the good old days, editors could say "This correspondence is now closed." when an argument had run its course. I'm sure the moderators would not seek to stifle comment in that way, but maybe that's what is needed now on the whole subject of buffets?

"Oh not THAT again".   Yeah, I feel a bit that way sometimes. But we have two new members making their first posts on the topic, and we have Mark Hopwood feeling in with GWR's view and position and within a thread that's specifically covering catering on the GWR's long distance fleet.  So - aired once again. But now if well established members could remember that there gets to be a point beyond which their repetition ceases to have much positive effect, it would be appreciated.

Written as I was typing


Saying more or less the same thing ... we could lock the thread, of course, which is the modern equivalent. However, we have the luxury of being able to leave it open for new member and at the same time trust the common sense of well established members not to over-repeat.

A buffet/trolley is desirable on long distance services, more importantly to know that there will / will not be a service before boarding, so supplies can be purchased if required.
However I feel that this facility is perhaps less critical than the timely running of the train itself. I agree that this issue has been aired sufficiently for the present.

I accept that we'll probably never see a buffet again in GWR country.
I also accept that the kitchen is still taking up space that could be used for seating.
My friend cannot accept that the coffee choices have been reduced from various freshly ground options to just instant.
I accept that the DFT wanted more seats on the train so the buffet had to go but...............

Why for the love of [insert deity of your choice] did we get stuck in 1st with the rock hard Fainsa seats in sand paper 'feel fabric'. The carpet is softer than the seat fabric which says it all really. At least the previous seats were more ergonomically fitted for your bum (and leather). Even the Adelante trains were nicer in 1st than the IET.

I'm prepared to trade the buffet for more seats just not those seats with that inernal decor.

I had ground coffee in a Lavazza finely perforated sip through lid on a recent trolley purchase in a standard class on an IET.  Tasted very nice, but then again I’ve never been too much of a coffee snob.  Are these going to become the standard issue on a trolley?

My Caffeine Fiend friend (her description not mine) says that she can't get an espresso anymore and on journeys of over 1/2 an hour this is unacceptable. Also apparently it doesn't matter how it's been packaged if it isn't fresh ground it doesn't taste the same. Something to do with volatile oils or some such evaporating. No good asking me as I don'tlike the stuff.

Not a 'caffeine fiend'. That's just making light of a drug addiction!  :P ;) ;D