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All across the Great Western territory => Fare's Fair => Topic started by: Robin Summerhill on August 10, 2019, 03:35:50 pm



Title: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: Robin Summerhill on August 10, 2019, 03:35:50 pm
Yesterday I was having a conversation with our local bus driver who said she was thinking of going to London for the first time in over 30 years. She looked into going by train and I quote: “but they wanted over £150 a ticket so we’re now thinking of going by National Express”

As it’s blowing a gale today, keeps on raining and I am therefore “confined to barracks,” I thought I’d look in to the matter more deeply. We are talking here about no more than a simple day trip from Chippenham to Paddington; other simple day trips from other stations are available:

Anytime return with LT Travelcard £184.70
Anytime return to Paddington only £178.00

Off Peak return with LT Travelcard £79.30
Off Peak return to Paddington only £74.60
Off peak tickets – first available up train 0855 departure, no return between 1640 and 1831

Super Off Peak with LT Travelcard £60.60
Super Off Peak to Paddington only £55.90
Super Off peak tickets – first available up train 1025, no return between 1501 and 1901

Save some money and split at Didcot? (combined fares shown)
Anytime with LT Travelcard £128.30 - saving £56.40 on the cost of a through ticket (to Paddington only is the same)
Anytime to Paddington only £121.60 

Off Peak return with LT Travelcard £64.70 - saving £14.60 on the cost of a through ticket
Off Peak return to Paddington only £60.00
Different Off Peak restrictions now apply to the Didcot to Paddington leg – now no return between 1559 and 1901

Super Off Peak with LT Travelcard £55.90 - saving £11.20 on the cost of a through ticket
Super Off Peak to Paddington only £49.40
Super off peak only applies to the Chippenham to Didcot leg (it’s actually an off peak day return, not a super off peak) so restrictions are the same as for Off Peak tickets.

Just to further complicate the issue, they could buy a Two Together Railcard for £30.00 (essentially £15 each) and get a one third discount on the above prices (off peak and super off peak only, not anytime). So buying any ticket where one third is more than £15.00 will save money. And that would be all of them…

If I give her a copy of this post the next time I see her, do you think that her head might explode?


Title: Re: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: Charlie (in Gloucester) on August 10, 2019, 03:45:41 pm
Yesterday I was having a conversation with our local bus driver who said she was thinking of going to London for the first time in over 30 years. She looked into going by train and I quote: “but they wanted over £150 a ticket so we’re now thinking of going by National Express”

As it’s blowing a gale today, keeps on raining and I am therefore “confined to barracks,” I thought I’d look in to the matter more deeply. We are talking here about no more than a simple day trip from Chippenham to Paddington; other simple day trips from other stations are available:

Anytime return with LT Travelcard £184.70
Anytime return to Paddington only £178.00

Off Peak return with LT Travelcard £79.30
Off Peak return to Paddington only £74.60
Off peak tickets – first available up train 0855 departure, no return between 1640 and 1831

Super Off Peak with LT Travelcard £60.60
Super Off Peak to Paddington only £55.90
Super Off peak tickets – first available up train 1025, no return between 1501 and 1901

Save some money and split at Didcot? (combined fares shown)
Anytime with LT Travelcard £128.30 - saving £56.40 on the cost of a through ticket (to Paddington only is the same)
Anytime to Paddington only £121.60 

Off Peak return with LT Travelcard £64.70 - saving £14.60 on the cost of a through ticket
Off Peak return to Paddington only £60.00
Different Off Peak restrictions now apply to the Didcot to Paddington leg – now no return between 1559 and 1901

Super Off Peak with LT Travelcard £55.90 - saving £11.20 on the cost of a through ticket
Super Off Peak to Paddington only £49.40
Super off peak only applies to the Chippenham to Didcot leg (it’s actually an off peak day return, not a super off peak) so restrictions are the same as for Off Peak tickets.

Just to further complicate the issue, they could buy a Two Together Railcard for £30.00 (essentially £15 each) and get a one third discount on the above prices (off peak and super off peak only, not anytime). So buying any ticket where one third is more than £15.00 will save money. And that would be all of them…

If I give her a copy of this post the next time I see her, do you think that her head might explode?


Short answer: Yes.


Title: Re: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: grahame on August 10, 2019, 04:07:48 pm
If I give her a copy of this post the next time I see her, do you think that her head might explode?

You could - but you're simplifying it.  Please have an expert check this before you use it

The £178 peak return is any train ... £121.60 any train that calls at Didcot.  But if you want to go up peak and back peak, same day, on a train that does not call at Didcot, I think the lowest available fare is £109.10.
* Chippenham to Didcot single, anytime, £27.50
* Didcot to Cholsey weekly season, £18.00
* Cholsey to Paddington, anytime day return, £49.20
* Didcot to Chippenham super off peak single, £14.40 (morning only peak restriction)

Using National Condition of Travel para 14.2:
Quote
If you are using a Season Ticket, daily Zonal Ticket, or another area based Ticket such as a concessionary pass, ranger or rover in conjunction with another Ticket and the last station at which one Ticket is valid and the first station that the other Ticket is valid are the same, then the train does not need to call at that station for your combination to be valid.

Then you need to consider if it' better to buy two singles if headed up and back in different time zones (e.g. up anytime, back off peak).  See http://www.mrug.org.uk/londonfares.html (and I have just noticed that Melksham is a pound cheaper than Chippenham on anytime return!)



I do look forward to the day that you can simply tell a system or person what your travel plans are and have them offer you the lowest cost option. Many people get put off by this being a bit complicated!


Title: Re: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: didcotdean on August 10, 2019, 04:52:27 pm
A straightforward Anytime Day Return for Didcot to Paddington is £66.60, slightly cheaper now than splitting at Cholsey, at least for one journey in a week. Although then you are back to needing to be on a service stopping at Didcot.


Title: Re: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: grahame on August 10, 2019, 05:35:57 pm
A straightforward Anytime Day Return for Didcot to Paddington is £66.60, slightly cheaper now than splitting at Cholsey, at least for one journey in a week. Although then you are back to needing to be on a service stopping at Didcot.

Indeed.   The season to Cholsey was included to give maximum day return flexibility - roughly a pound cheaper if you take Cholsey Season out, and force users only onto Didcot-calling trains.


Title: Re: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: Robin Summerhill on August 10, 2019, 08:07:35 pm
Quote from: grahame
Quote from: Robin Summerhill
If I give her a copy of this post the next time I see her, do you think that her head might explode?

You could - but you're simplifying it. 

 ;D ;D

The origin of this bit of research was a conversation with someone who had not been to London for 30 years and probably has not been on a train in all that time either.

The research, when including tickets with and without travelcards, with or without a railcard and the option of splitting at Didcot, threw up 20 different fare options ranging from £184.70 down to £32.60 (plus £15 for half a railcard!) .

Given that the potential "audience" for this research knows nothing about railway fares and/or indeed perhaps how to use a train, I think arcane issues like throwing a Didcot to Cholsey season into the mix would be a severe case of overkill!



Quote from: grahame
I do look forward to the day that you can simply tell a system or person what your travel plans are and have them offer you the lowest cost option. Many people get put off by this being a bit complicated!

I think that this research certainly implies that that day is so far off railways would have ceased to exist before it arrives!

There is no way on this earth that a range of fares so wide as that could be simplified in such a way that would keep everybody happy. And that range of fares is, as I said earlier, on a very very ordinary day trip from Chippenham to Paddington. There are 2562 other stations on the network, many if not most of them with equally extreme ranges of fares and conditions that apply to those fares. You do the sums :)

As the old saying goes "the impossible we do at once. Miracles take a little longer" ;)


Title: Re: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: grahame on August 10, 2019, 08:28:32 pm
There are 2562 other stations on the network, many if not most of them with equally extreme ranges of fares and conditions that apply to those fares. You do the sums :)

Quote
>>> vv = 0
>>> for k in range(2561): vv += k
...
>>> print(vv)
3278080
>>>

OK - so over 3 million possible journeys - 6 million if you look in both directions.  I note you said "other" stations - so should I have used a number that was one or two more, or does your 2562 include IBM and Berney Arms which are service suspended?  Minor adjustments also needed (we have some pedants here) for stations between which there are no fares - St Budeaux Victoria Road to St Budeaux Ferry Road, Catford to Catford Bridge, Heath High Level to Heath Low Level, etc


Title: Re: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: Robin Summerhill on August 10, 2019, 08:38:36 pm
There are 2562 other stations on the network, many if not most of them with equally extreme ranges of fares and conditions that apply to those fares. You do the sums :)

Quote
>>> vv = 0
>>> for k in range(2561): vv += k
...
>>> print(vv)
3278080
>>>

OK - so over 3 million possible journeys - 6 million if you look in both directions.  I note you said "other" stations - so should I have used a number that was one or two more, or does your 2562 include IBM and Berney Arms which are service suspended?  Minor adjustments also needed (we have some pedants here) for stations between which there are no fares - St Budeaux Victoria Road to St Budeaux Ferry Road, Catford to Catford Bridge, Heath High Level to Heath Low Level, etc


And there I was about to make a gag along the lines of "is there a pedant's revolt then? Oh no - I'm thinking of Wat Tyler..."

Then I remembered that that peasant's revolt was to do with a poll tax. And as others have said before me, if we're not careful this fares review is going to turn out to be a poll tax on wheels.

But in direct answer to your question, I do believe that the figure of 2563 includes the lot, including stations where there is no available fare between the two. So take out as many as you like for the pedants, but you still end up with a whopping great big number!


Title: Re: And the best of luck to the Williams Fares Review…
Post by: grahame on February 22, 2020, 06:50:28 am
... or does your 2562 include IBM and Berney Arms which are service suspended?  ...

Berney Arms re-opens on Monday - https://www.facebook.com/wherrylines/posts/2692448894202666



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