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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: IndustryInsider on August 19, 2019, 03:02:08 pm



Title: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 19, 2019, 03:02:08 pm
You may remember I've said about making some fairly minor internal layout alterations to the IETs to help solve the lack of space for buggies, which can often be found in doorways, or partially in the bike/luggage compartments.

Well, I've got out my measuring stick and worked out how I think it should be done.  Turns out that removal of four seats, replaced with three tip-up seats, can give you plenty of room for a buggy!  I've attached a diagram to show how it would work, including nominal measurements.

Feedback would be useful, otherwise it's over to you to improve things for your customers, GWR!  ;)


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: broadgage on August 19, 2019, 03:17:39 pm
I can see the merit of this suggestion, the only real drawback IMHO is that it panders to those who refuse to fold buggies and thereby occupy excessive space.

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed "buggy inflation" whereby the contraptions become steadily larger as the years go past.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Charlie (in Gloucester) on August 19, 2019, 03:30:53 pm
Iíve also spoken  about the fact that 9 car vehicles have Standard Class wheelchair spaces yet are in the Quiet Carriage. LNER worked around this and have the Quiet Carriage in coach H.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Robin Summerhill on August 19, 2019, 05:59:35 pm
Quote from: broadgage
I can see the merit of this suggestion, the only real drawback IMHO is that it panders to those who refuse to fold buggies and thereby occupy excessive space.

Is it just me, or has anyone else noticed "buggy inflation" whereby the contraptions become steadily larger as the years go past.

That may or may not be the case, but they are still substantially smaller than the prams some of us older buggers were pushed around in when we were kids.

My parents told me that my pram, together with numerous others, ended up in the guard's van when being taken into Bristol in the days when St Philip's station was still open. Unfortunately as I was only 15 months old when it closed I have absolutely no recollection of the trips whatsoever  ;D


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: bignosemac on August 19, 2019, 07:18:25 pm
become steadily larger as the years go past.

Bit like some of us! :P


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: MVR S&T on August 19, 2019, 08:23:31 pm
Why not have a coach with no fixed seats, just tip up seats around the edges, an easy clean non slip floor, hand grabs for standing, plenty of room for cycles, wheelchairs, prams, buggys, Isambard props, or lots of standing cummuters from London to the west country... (and surf boards)


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: broadgage on August 20, 2019, 01:31:23 pm
Why not have a coach with no fixed seats, just tip up seats around the edges, an easy clean non slip floor, hand grabs for standing, plenty of room for cycles, wheelchairs, prams, buggys, Isambard props, or lots of standing cummuters from London to the west country... (and surf boards)

A bit OTT to have a whole coach fitted out thus, but perhaps about one quarter or one third of a coach might be reasonable, it would be what we used to call the guard's van or luggage van, but would need re branding these days.
"multi functional facility" or some such.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 20, 2019, 01:34:48 pm
Doesnít sound like the nicest environment for passengers to travel in.  I remember when wheelchair passengers were simply dumped in the guards van and left to spend the journey cold, alone and staring at piles of parcels!


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Oxonhutch on August 20, 2019, 02:10:55 pm
I remember when wheelchair passengers were simply dumped in the guards van and left to spend the journey cold, alone and staring at piles of parcels!

On one absolutely packed  service from Oxford to New Street in the late seventies, I spent the entire journey in the guardís van sitting on my own bicycle's seat. Nicely sprung, it was more comfortable than standing up!


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: broadgage on August 20, 2019, 02:29:17 pm
Doesnít sound like the nicest environment for passengers to travel in.  I remember when wheelchair passengers were simply dumped in the guards van and left to spend the journey cold, alone and staring at piles of parcels!

Yes but the new multi functional space could be equipped with heating, windows, and the tip up seats would allow the companions of the wheelchair user to travel with them.
So not cold nor alone.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: chuffed on August 20, 2019, 03:01:36 pm
couldn't the multifunctional user space described above sell hot and cold drinks, sandwiches, confectionary and cakes all at the same time. It could even be fixed in position....... :o


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: broadgage on August 20, 2019, 07:08:34 pm
couldn't the multifunctional user space described above sell hot and cold drinks, sandwiches, confectionary and cakes all at the same time. It could even be fixed in position....... :o

Not under present GWR management as it would be contrary to their strongly stated policy regarding such matters.
Might be worth considering by a future operator though.

Extend all the 9 car trains to 10 car by adding an extra vehicle incorporating the new multi function area.
About 40 or 50 seats in about half of the vehicle.
The other half of the vehicle to consist of stowage for bulky articles and heavy luggage and an area from which refreshment may be obtained.
At least a dozen tip up seats could be provided, primarily for those accompanying wheelchairs, baby carriages and the like.
Place this vehicle in the middle of the standard class section in order that no standard class customer has to walk far in order to use it.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2019, 12:42:54 am
I might have known my thread would get hijacked with buffet reinstatement suggestions.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Charlie (in Gloucester) on August 21, 2019, 01:05:39 am
I might have known my thread would get hijacked with buffet reinstatement suggestions.

No suggestions as of current to have locomotives at each end and replace the sliding doors with slam doors.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: broadgage on August 21, 2019, 04:37:14 am
A locomotive at each end would IMO be preferable, I see no merit in the return of slam doors.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2019, 09:46:15 am
A tenth carriage with areas for wheelchairs, buggies and bikes is indeed a possibility, though a costly one and it does nothing to help the 5-car fleet.  I personally donít think the sums for a 10-car extension will add up unless itís entirely used for seating. 

My solution was designed to be quick and cheap to do.  You could probably complete the works on a given unit over a weekend.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Celestial on August 21, 2019, 11:02:59 am
It would seem absurd to reduce proper seating to allow for buggies when these should be collapsed on board. Surely better that gateline staff have a supply of leaflets explaining that buggies should be collapsed and the reasons why (emphasising safety). When someone asks to be let through the wide gate with a buggy they are handed the leaflet and asked to read it.  On board staff would also have a few available too.

There could be posters at stations too and maybe in the vestibule areas.

I thought the original idea of young children not paying a fare was that if a seat was needed by another person they would have to sit on the parent's lap. Now we are suggesting taking seats out for them.

What next, specially strengthened seats to take suitcases and a smoking area on board for those that prefer not to obey some of the other rules?


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: grahame on August 21, 2019, 11:32:43 am
How radical do you want to be?

Charge the same fare for all ages, with a single range of loyalty railcards - bronze, silver and gold available to everyone offering increased discounts at each level for an increased annual fee.  Revise Groupsave so that discounts can be compounded.

Charge a part fare for bicycles, dogs, buggies, wheelchairs, heavy luggage, owls, surfboards, etc. Whether a flat fare or a proportion of the ticket - to be decides.  Whether loyalty discounts apply on these extras, goodness knows.

Fixed fee for seat reservations, but with a guarantee of a seat.

Your economics for extra carriages and what they should take may start to look better, and I'm sure those of us who from time to time take (in my case) dogs, owls and heavy luggage would not mind paying a bit extra on the occasions we did, if compensated by a bit less on the occasions we didn't ... nor would we mind a small seat reservation fee for those occassions we especially want to be able to be sure of being seated.

I wonder if Williams will be this radical!


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Bmblbzzz on August 21, 2019, 03:13:10 pm
Hats off to II for considering the matter.

As a pedantic quibble, but also to clarify a possible source of confusion, he talks of "buggies" but the diagram shows what I would call a "pram". Or a "baby carriage" if you want to be Transpondian. The term "buggy" to me suggests something smaller and for a toddler or older baby who is at least sitting up, if not walking. This isn't just a pedantic quibble Ė the crucial difference here is that a buggy folds, prams do not (or at least not without a deal of effort). Also, whereas the pram stage lasts maybe a year at most, the buggy stage lasts several years, so there are more buggies and due to the age, probably more travelling.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2019, 03:31:43 pm
Thanks, and yes I chose that image for two reasons, firstly it indicated what space the largest item would take up, and secondly as a pictogram it worked much better than overhead views of pushchairs/buggies and I wanted to indicate the likely width so a side-on image wouldnít have been as effective.

You could fit two small pushchairs in the available space if required.

Iím terms of ĎWhy should we provide a space?í  Then I guess that comes down to whether you want to try and make journeys as rewarding and stress free as possible.  Insisting on folding away things takes time and can cause congestion as people behind try to get on.  Other people just ignore leaflets and guidance and will continue to leave them unfolded and abandoned in various other places on the train that causes other issues.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on August 22, 2019, 09:34:31 am
I can see the merit of this suggestion, the only real drawback IMHO is that it panders to those who refuse to fold buggies and thereby occupy excessive space.

Generally my experience is that sleeping children in buggies object quite vociferously to being folded up. My experience is also that other passengers donít particularly welcome vociferous children...

II, this is an excellent suggestion. Providing freeform luggage space like this would improve travel for everyone with buggies, suitcases and bikes. These seats are inevitably only used on very busy services in any case.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: mjray on August 22, 2019, 12:46:34 pm
A bit OTT to have a whole coach fitted out thus, but perhaps about one quarter or one third of a coach might be reasonable, it would be what we used to call the guard's van or luggage van, but would need re branding these days.
"multi functional facility" or some such.
Belgium's SNCB/NMBS calls them "multi-functional areas" and I've found it to be generally one carriage of 10 (or the lower deck of a shorter double-decker, or half a carriage of a shorter single-decker). Some double-deckers have low-level exit doors but they can only be opened by the guard. See https://cheeseweb.eu/2015/06/bike-belgian-trains-stepbystep-guide/ although the Liege-Lux service now has carriages with an open area too.

The Netherlands's NS seemed to have thirds of some coaches as open spaces but labels them variously as luggage or 4-bike spaces (despite 6 fitting easily and 8 is possible on most with careful stacking, sometimes more, all with none blocking gangways), causing needless conflict and delay if you've a rules-enforcing guard and a different mix of luggage/bikes/passengers to what the builders expected.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: broadgage on August 22, 2019, 03:24:33 pm

Generally my experience is that sleeping children in buggies object quite vociferously to being folded up. My experience is also that other passengers donít particularly welcome vociferous children...

II, this is an excellent suggestion. Providing freeform luggage space like this would improve travel for everyone with buggies, suitcases and bikes. These seats are inevitably only used on very busy services in any case.

AFAIK, the child, sleeping or otherwise is meant to be removed BEFORE folding the buggy. I would expect the child to object vociferously if folded up with the buggy. Some makes of buggy have instructions that read "WARNING, REMOVE CHILD BEFORE FOLDING"
Most children do not come with instructions.



Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on August 22, 2019, 06:19:18 pm
The problem is that waking the child also sets off the vociferous chain of events!


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Bmblbzzz on August 22, 2019, 09:34:23 pm
Very small children IME have a natural inclinometer. They can fall asleep in any position but once asleep, will wake and initiate the aforementioned vociferous chain of events the instant they are laid on a horizontal surface. If by chance they happen to fall asleep in a horizontal position, they will wake the instant they are are raised or lowered, no matter how gently, with the same effects.


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: eightonedee on August 22, 2019, 09:56:29 pm
Back to II's initial suggestion  it seems sensible to me.

If he puts in an order for tip up seats, can he order a few extra please so they can be installed in the two substantial wheelchair spaces in the centre coaches of "refurbished" Turbos, so a few more folk can sit down when these spaces are not in use (dare I say, as is usually the case) for wheelchairs?


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: MVR S&T on August 22, 2019, 10:17:11 pm
Having all these spaces for wheelchairs, buggys, priority seats on the train is all very well, but getting from the platform on to and out of the train, is more of an issue. remember any of us may need a wheelchair/pram one day..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49434911



Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: bignosemac on August 22, 2019, 11:21:51 pm
Having all these spaces for wheelchairs, buggys, priority seats on the train is all very well, but getting from the platform on to and out of the train, is more of an issue. remember any of us may need a wheelchair/pram one day..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49434911

On that point, I've started a dedicated topic about this latest TOC failing to provide for a disabled traveller:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22116.0


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Bmblbzzz on August 23, 2019, 12:59:20 am
Having all these spaces for wheelchairs, buggys, priority seats on the train is all very well, but getting from the platform on to and out of the train, is more of an issue. remember any of us may need a wheelchair/pram one day..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-49434911


One at each end of life, often!


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: Oxonhutch on August 23, 2019, 07:02:31 am
I think I read it on these boards first - we are all born disabled.

I made my pram into the most exciting trolley. The fun I had with that ...


Title: Re: Suggestion: IET internal modifications to make them more buggy friendly
Post by: ChrisB on August 28, 2019, 10:27:49 am
Create space maybe for *collapsed* buggies free of charge a la II's idea, but if their owners don't want to colapse, then a further ticket necessary as they'll take up similar space to a seat. That'll make 'em think.



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