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Title: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 19, 2019, 15:10:42 Effect on oil price would be negligible compared to the bombing of the Saudi refinery and shipment port, surely. Yes, in theory refinery problems* should REDUCE crude oil prices since reduced refinery activity means less demand for crude oil. Shortages of refined products might logically increase the prices of these products. In fact markets do not always respond logically and refinery problems* sometimes seem to increase crude prices. I expect that this blockade will have a negligible impact on crude oil prices. If however the blockade is long continued, or repeated at other refineries, then a shortage of refined oil products such as petrol and diesel fuel is likely. The recent attacks in Saudi Arabia, whilst not directly relevant, might make consumers more nervous and more liable to panic buying/prudent stocking up/hoarding. I never panic buy, but have done some prudent stocking up. *Not just blockades, but also industrial disputes, fires, terrorist attacks, mechanical failures and damage from extreme weather. Title: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on September 19, 2019, 15:32:59 Meanwhile, petrol near my current location has gone down 2p a litre in the past couple of days.
Title: Storing petrol Post by: IndustryInsider on September 19, 2019, 15:34:26 A good time to panic buy then. :D
Title: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 19, 2019, 15:39:03 I never panic buy, but have done some prudent stocking up. I lay in prudent stocks.You hoard. He panic buys. ;) Title: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 19, 2019, 16:01:10 I never panic buy, but have done some prudent stocking up. I lay in prudent stocks.You hoard. He panic buys. ;) Yes, or in more detail, prudent stocking up is done well before any emergency or disaster suggests a particular need. Panic buying is done when the emergency or disaster is clearly imminent or has already occurred. "Hoarding" is a bit more subjective but to me it implies illegal or immoral behaviour in wartime whereby others are deprived. I don't drive but keep a modest reserve of petrol. I usually heat with fire wood and off peak electricity, but keep a reserve of paraffin. I use mains powered electric lights, but also have battery lights and keep a reserve of batteries. Title: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 19, 2019, 17:41:38 I agree that hoarding implies behaviour which is illegal or immoral and from which the hoarder often intends to profit by selling the stock later, though I don't think it's restricted to wartime.
It seemed the most appropriate word (I could think of at the time) to conjugate the irregular verb. Out of curiousity, what is your modest reserve of petrol for if you don't drive? Title: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 19, 2019, 17:53:30 My reserve petrol is for any friends who drive here and cant obtain petrol to return, for neighbours from whom I might want a favour, or possibly other uses not yet foreseen.
Title: Storing petrol Post by: TaplowGreen on September 19, 2019, 18:08:42 My reserve petrol is for any friends who drive here and cant obtain petrol to return, for neighbours from whom I might want a favour, or possibly other uses not yet foreseen. Storing any quantity of petrol is incredibly dangerous, and illegal above a relatively small amount...…….I hope you observe the rules, and keep it well away from your coach and horses. Title: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 19, 2019, 18:16:39 Would you let your coachman or domestic staff use this?
Seriously, the really dangerous thing with petrol is not the liquid, which is obvious, but the invisible vapour. Example (https://www.itv.com/news/calendar/2017-07-04/watch-warning-after-garden-shed-explodes/) Title: Storing petrol Post by: TaplowGreen on September 19, 2019, 18:17:43 Highly irresponsible.
Title: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 19, 2019, 18:58:18 Highly irresponsible. To what do you refer ? The protesters ? Or to my store of petrol which I believe to be safe and legal. I store no more than 30 liters, in purpose made steel jerry cans. These are kept in a locked detached outbuilding. Title: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 19, 2019, 20:56:55 Highly irresponsible. To what do you refer ? The protesters ? Or to my store of petrol which I believe to be safe and legal. I store no more than 30 liters, in purpose made steel jerry cans. These are kept in a locked detached outbuilding. https://www.lawnmowersdirect.co.uk/blog/news/petrol-cans-safe-storage/ Quote 5-litre plastic cans 30 litres is not far off the tank of the last car I had (though that was diesel) and twice the motorbike I had back when I was motorcycling, so it seems an awful lot to store if you don't have a car. You are legally able to store two of these cans at home, meaning you could have up to 10 litres stored in plastic cans at any one time. These tend to be the most common form of fuel container, with around three million being sold every year, usually from petrol station forecourts. 10-litre metal containers You are legally able to store up to 20 litres in metal cans, meaning you can have up to two 10-litre metal fuel containers. In total you can store up to 30-litres of petrol at home by using two 10-litre petrol cans in combination with two 5-litre plastic containers. The fuel in your lawnmower or other petrol garden machinery also counts toward this storage limit. That website also points out that petrol 'goes off'; they quote a usable limit of three months – so unless you have an awful lot of friends using your stored petrol, it seems a bit of a waste. Edit: Something more official: http://www.hse.gov.uk/fireandexplosion/petrol-storage-club-association.htm Title: Storing petrol Post by: Celestial on September 20, 2019, 10:00:39 Highly irresponsible. To what do you refer ? The protesters ? Or to my store of petrol which I believe to be safe and legal. I store no more than 30 liters, in purpose made steel jerry cans. These are kept in a locked detached outbuilding. Title: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on September 20, 2019, 13:06:53 If all 30 litres are in steel jerry cans, that's probably not legal. It seems from a quick goggle that you're allowed two steel cans (10 litres each) and two plastic (5 litres each). https://www.lawnmowersdirect.co.uk/blog/news/petrol-cans-safe-storage/ I'm not sure that website has interpreted the law correctly. https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1637/contents/made Quote SCHEDULE 2 Petrol Storage in Domestic or Other Relevant Premises Requirements for keeping up to 30 litres of petrol in suitable portable containers or in a single demountable fuel tank 1. A person keeps petrol in accordance with this paragraph if— (a)no more than a total of 30 litres in suitable portable containers or in a single demountable fuel tank is kept, of which— (i)no more than 30 litres is kept in one or more suitable portable containers; (ii)no more than 30 litres is kept in one demountable fuel tank; or (iii)no more than 30 litres is kept in no more than two suitable portable containers in any motor vehicle, motor boat, hovercraft or aircraft; (b)the storage place is— (i)within, above, below, attached to, or within the curtilage of a building (but, subject to paragraphs (ii) and (iii), not a flat or public building); (ii)below a flat; (iii)attached to a public building; or (iv)in a vehicle for the purpose of using it as fuel for any internal combustion engine; (c)the storage place, where it is— (i)within a building, is fire-separated from the rest of the building and any exit route from the building; and (ii)above, below or attached to a building, is fire-separated from the building; The need to store 30 litres of petrol when not using vehicles is highly questionable, but not necessarily illegal. Title: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 20, 2019, 15:33:04 That lawnmower website has, I think, got the essentials right – the 30 litre limit, not keeping it in a dwelling, etc – but for some reason been overly cautious and prescriptive on the type of container. Perhaps because those are just the most common types of container used by lawnmowerists?
I only linked to it because it was the first site that came up in a quick search; I did edit my post to include a link to the official HSE rules. Broadgage's 30 litres do seem to be legal, as long as the building is subject to adequate ventilation etc. I do wonder what the local fire brigade and also the police, for different reasons, would say though! Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Red Squirrel on September 20, 2019, 17:08:54 I've moved these posts to a new topic as this thread had wandered rather a long way from 'Climate protests in Bristol'
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TaplowGreen on September 20, 2019, 17:43:17 That lawnmower website has, I think, got the essentials right – the 30 litre limit, not keeping it in a dwelling, etc – but for some reason been overly cautious and prescriptive on the type of container. Perhaps because those are just the most common types of container used by lawnmowerists? I only linked to it because it was the first site that came up in a quick search; I did edit my post to include a link to the official HSE rules. Broadgage's 30 litres do seem to be legal, as long as the building is subject to adequate ventilation etc. I do wonder what the local fire brigade and also the police, for different reasons, would say though! I reckon he's a secret revolutionary, he's probably the sort of chap who likes his steak well done (on the Pullman and elsewhere) so petrol bombs hold no fear for him! To the barricades comrades! for buffets and no more IETs! ;) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Celestial on September 20, 2019, 18:05:47 My reserve petrol is for any friends who drive here and cant obtain petrol to return, for neighbours from whom I might want a favour, or possibly other uses not yet foreseen. I'm baffled. How many friends do you ever expect to turn up and not have enough petrol to get them as far as the nearest open filling station? If you're being that prudent I hope you have a similar supply of diesel in case any of your friends have cars so powered. And if you need a favour then much much safer that you give them a couple of quid or a bottle of wine than start to decant fuel into their vehicle.But seriously, although I think we've established that it's not illegal, if there ever was any question as to your motivation for keeping such a large amount of fuel on the premises, your reasons would be laughed out of hand by whichever authority was interested as totally implausible and to be hiding another motive. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 20, 2019, 23:13:42 I reckon he's a secret revolutionary, he's probably the sort of chap who likes his steak well done (on the Pullman and elsewhere) so petrol bombs hold no fear for him! To the barricades comrades! for buffets and no more IETs! ;) Young sir, you again tend to exaggerate a little. I prefer my steak to be medium to rare. I have never made a petrol bomb, nor manned a barricade. I would like to see the return of proper trains with buffets, but would not resort to violence over such matters. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 20, 2019, 23:33:13 My reserve petrol is for any friends who drive here and cant obtain petrol to return, for neighbours from whom I might want a favour, or possibly other uses not yet foreseen. I'm baffled. How many friends do you ever expect to turn up and not have enough petrol to get them as far as the nearest open filling station? If you're being that prudent I hope you have a similar supply of diesel in case any of your friends have cars so powered. And if you need a favour then much much safer that you give them a couple of quid or a bottle of wine than start to decant fuel into their vehicle.But seriously, although I think we've established that it's not illegal, if there ever was any question as to your motivation for keeping such a large amount of fuel on the premises, your reasons would be laughed out of hand by whichever authority was interested as totally implausible and to be hiding another motive. 30 litres is only enough to get one vehicle back to London in an emergency. If any serious emergency occurred one can not expect to find an open filling station. In some emergencies, a can of petrol could be very valuable indeed, much more so than a few pounds or a bottle of drink. The last time that my reserve was used "in anger" was during the fuel price protests and blockades. A neighbour was very glad of it, having already used their own reserve. And yes I do keep a small supply of diesel fuel. I doubt that the fire brigade or police would be very interested in a small and legal supply. Many people in rural areas store petrol far in excess of that permitted, and often in dubious circumstances. With common sense precautions, I see little risk in decanting petrol from a jerry can into a vehicle. No smoking, no other flames or sparks nearby, touch the can with one hand and the vehicle with the other to discharge any static electricity, preferably decant in daylight, or use an intrinsically safe flashlight, or an electric light a safe distance away, or other safe light source. "Did you hear about poor old Harry ? He struck a match to inspect the level in his petrol tank !" "What ! you would think that would be the last thing he would do" "It was" Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 22, 2019, 13:18:37 An emergency serious enough to close every petrol station between Broadgage Towers and London would probably require alternative transport desirable. For some reason, I'm reminded of The Changes (https://www.peterdickinson.com/books/changes/) trilogy, particularly the last one, The Weathermonger.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 22, 2019, 15:51:59 I never panic buy, but have done some prudent stocking up. I lay in prudent stocks.You hoard. He panic buys. ;) The airline hedges. My reserve petrol is for any friends who drive here and cant obtain petrol to return, for neighbours from whom I might want a favour, or possibly other uses not yet foreseen. My 2 or 3 litres (until at least Hallowe'en) is primarily for my lawnmower, but nearly got used to take me to Taunton, where petrol is much cheaper. My neighbours are very pleasant, but should make their own arrangements. As for other uses, as yet unseen? But while the police, army, fire brigade or local council may not be worried about my stash, I am. It is in a sealed container of the approved type, by the door of my garage, away from the balanced flue boiler, and as well ventilated as I can make it. I might be daft, but I'm not stupid. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on September 22, 2019, 16:44:22 Ahh, someone else who fills up in Taunton. I try to whenever I visit the family. It's currently 5p a litre cheaper in Taunton compared to Morrison's Wincanton, which is the cheapest near Templecombe.
Taunton is consistently one of cheapest places for petrol/diesel in the UK. One reason is that there are 4 supermarket filling stations in the town. Another reason is the Sainsbury's at Hankridge Farm's proximity to the M5, A38 and A358. Saturday's at Sainsbury's Hankridge Farm can be a nightmare, when it seems everyone from Somerset (and the odd one from Devon like TonyK ;)) descends on the petrol station there. An acquaintance who used to work for Sainsbury's told me that the petrol station at Hankridge Farm sells more fuel than any other Sainsbury's in the UK. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Surrey 455 on September 22, 2019, 18:50:28 An emergency serious enough to close every petrol station between Broadgage Towers and London would probably require alternative transport desirable. For some reason, I'm reminded of The Changes (https://www.peterdickinson.com/books/changes/) trilogy, particularly the last one, The Weathermonger. Gosh, The Changes on BBC1 scared me witless when I was young even though it was a childrens programme. The soundtrack had fairly haunting music I seem to recall. It's on YouTube but I haven't got round to watching it yet. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 22, 2019, 19:29:51 The Sainsbury's just off J12 of the M4 used to have very cheap petrol back in the 90s, perhaps for similar reasons.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Clan Line on September 22, 2019, 19:37:46 One reason is that there are 4 supermarket filling stations in the town. That would seem to be a logical statement...........but.............the cheapest place that I know of is Tesco in Calne - with no local competition there whatsoever. Always much cheaper than anywhere in the Warminster/Trowbridge/Salisbury areas. Whenever I visit my daughter there the car is always down to its last cupful ! Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: bobm on September 22, 2019, 20:24:07 The Sainsbury's just off J12 of the M4 used to have very cheap petrol back in the 90s, perhaps for similar reasons. In those days it was Savacentre - a joint enterprise between Sainsbury’s and British Home Stores. Look what happened to BHS! Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 23, 2019, 09:35:51 Yes, it was Savacentre, but I didn't know there was any BHS involvement; thought it was just another 'brand' of Sainsbury's, similar to 'Tesco Metro' etc nowadays. I don't remember ever seeing any other branch of Savacentre anywhere!
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: patch38 on September 23, 2019, 09:37:50 An emergency serious enough to close every petrol station between Broadgage Towers and London would probably require alternative transport desirable. For some reason, I'm reminded of The Changes (https://www.peterdickinson.com/books/changes/) trilogy, particularly the last one, The Weathermonger. I think broadgage's avatar gives another clue to why he stores petrol (coincidentally contemporaneous with The Changes)... Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 23, 2019, 11:19:01 Ahh, someone else who fills up in Taunton. I try to whenever I visit the family. It's currently 5p a litre cheaper in Taunton compared to Morrison's Wincanton, which is the cheapest near Templecombe. I never go there just to fill up, but always do en passant[/url]. I arrive on fumes. My normal fuel uplift in Tiverton is a tenner. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 23, 2019, 12:30:09 I think broadgage's avatar gives another clue to why he stores petrol (coincidentally contemporaneous with The Changes)... Yes. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Red Squirrel on September 23, 2019, 12:48:26 I think broadgage's avatar gives another clue to why he stores petrol (coincidentally contemporaneous with The Changes)... Yes. Aha! Brilliant! So here's a little riddle: Which physical artefact links Survivors with The Good Life? Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: patch38 on September 23, 2019, 12:57:24 So here's a little riddle: Which physical artefact links Survivors with The Good Life? Too easy for a Survivors fan: Jerry Leadbetter's yellow Volvo estate was also Abby Grant's car. Although I preferred her hubby's Jensen Interceptor (a corner of which is visible in the aforementioned avatar). I claim my prize ;D Oh, and don't eat the fish... Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Red Squirrel on September 23, 2019, 13:22:47 Yup; DJH 180K
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 23, 2019, 17:09:11 So here's a little riddle: Which physical artefact links Survivors with The Good Life? Too easy for a Survivors fan: Jerry Leadbetter's yellow Volvo estate was also Abby Grant's car. Although I preferred her hubby's Jensen Interceptor (a corner of which is visible in the aforementioned avatar). I claim my prize ;D Oh, and don't eat the fish... Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: patch38 on September 23, 2019, 17:34:49 Yup, it's definitely a Jensen Interceptor. The avatar is a screencap from the first episode of the 1975 BBC drama Survivors. The station is Great Malvern, dressed up as 'Brimpsfield'. Brimpsfield is actually a village in Gloucestershire (round about the end of the dualled bit of the A417 near Birdlip). Someone from the production team (possibly producer, Terence Dudley) used to drive past the signpost regularly and borrowed the name.
The Jensen never appeared after that but the yellow Volvo turned up in a few more episodes. FWIW - I agree with you about the Austin Allegro! Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on September 23, 2019, 18:20:07 The Jensen Interceptor 'starred' in a fair few movies and TV series in the 60s and 70s. And even into the 1980s where one was The Saint's (Simon Templar played by Simon Ditton) car in a series of TV movies.
The Champions, The Persuaders, The Protectors, The Sweeney The Professionals, The Saint... all have featured the Interceptor. There's a good chance that the Interceptor would appear in any 60s-80s 'good guys v bad guys' TV shows. Production Designers seemingly liked them. Oh, and it's one of the cars I'll have in my collection when I win the lottery. It'll look good alongside the Triumph Stag and Aston Martin Lagonda. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Oxonhutch on September 23, 2019, 18:22:46 I agree with you about the Austin Allegro! My dad had one - square steering wheel and all! Great caravan towing cars - their rear wheels were so close to the tow hitch. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 23, 2019, 20:21:04 "is that what life is worth nowadays. Fifty gallons of petrol. God help as all"
Series one, episode 12. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw5yAbFiC3U (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uw5yAbFiC3U) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 24, 2019, 09:40:36 I didn't recognise the name but realise I've been through Brimpsfield several times, sometimes from Birdlip, sometimes from Cowley, sometimes up from Slad. Never on a train! ;)
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 24, 2019, 10:12:47 The Jensen Interceptor 'starred' in a fair few movies and TV series in the 60s and 70s. And even into the 1980s where one was The Saint's (Simon Templar played by Simon Ditton) car in a series of TV movies. The Champions, The Persuaders, The Protectors, The Sweeney The Professionals, The Saint... all have featured the Interceptor. There's a good chance that the Interceptor would appear in any 60s-80s 'good guys v bad guys' TV shows. Production Designers seemingly liked them. Oh, and it's one of the cars I'll have in my collection when I win the lottery. It'll look good alongside the Triumph Stag and Aston Martin Lagonda. I have never owned either, but I have driven both a Triumph Shag and an Austin Legover. The Stag was borrowed to impress a lady. It wasn't easy to drive, as it kept pulling over to the middle of the road unless I steered heavily to the left. Less than a week later, the offside rear wheel fell off accompanied by the half-shaft, thankfully under the command of the owner. The Allegro belonged to my mate's auntie, who lived halfway up the Great Orme. She complained about how sluggish it was. It was 3 years old and had done under 5,000 miles, half of it free-wheeling to Llandudno, or down the other half of the Great Orme. We drove it to Chester and back at the sort of speed you do when you are young and immortal, starting at midnight. My pal changed the oil the following morning, and his auntie thought it was much improved. I currently drive a British-made car (Nissan), although I might trade it in for an Austin Brexit. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: patch38 on September 24, 2019, 10:29:32 A mate of mine owned a Triumph Snag and, one lovely summer's day in the mid-1970s, we drove up to Shropshire with the roof down. Although it was one of the rare occasions that it didn't overheat, what we didn't know was that there was a microscopic oil leak from the rocker cover. I can assure you that aerosolized Castrol 10W/40 makes a mockery of Brylcreem. When we got there, my hair looked like Bridget Jones's after Hugh Grant drove her down to the country. I had to flatten it with a shovel.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: eightonedee on September 24, 2019, 22:29:51 My goodness - nostalgia overload this evening for someone who used to drive his Allegros (I owned two!) to go shopping at the Savacentre at Calcot/junction 12 catching up on coffee shop posts.
The first was a high mileage ex-journalist's hack that had seen better days, and was kept going at reduced cost by virtue of the fact that my brother worked for a BL subsidiary which meant staff discount on spares. It took two friends and myself, a frame tent, camping equipment and a fortnight's supplies on a trip down to Switzerland then around a circuit of the Alps, briefly into Italy and over several famous passes including the Simplon, and also was used for a high speed dash across the Netherlands when visiting a friend working there. The second by contrast was a low-mileage well cared for one that served me well for two and a half years, and only almost let me down once - when the ignition light came on driving down to the New Forest. I called into the garage at the roundabout at Sutton Scotney, bought a new alternator, got my tool box out and swapped it out and was on my way again in half an hour - happy days! I think I've worked out the real reason Broadgage claims to store a bizarre amount of petrol at home - it's to set ablaze a bonfire of thread drift on the forum! Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 25, 2019, 16:45:04 The first was a high mileage ex-journalist's hack that had seen better days, and was kept going at reduced cost by virtue of the fact that my brother worked for a BL subsidiary which meant staff discount on spares. My brother used to spend most weekends sourcing bits for his Morris 1000 at a certain scrapyard up north. This even continued on holiday - I towed him from Strensham services to Bristol, then spent the folllowing mrning at a Bristol scrapyard. One day, his local man asked what he was looking for that day. "I'm not. I'm leaving the car this time," he said. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 24, 2021, 12:24:24 The latest petrol panic is growing, with a significant number of filling stations running out, and long queues at others.
I may yet be glad of my modest supply. I expect that the panic will spread to heating oil when the populace realise that it is delivered by the same pool of drivers and in similar tankers. An acquaintance of mine was blocked into his own driveway by persons queueing for petrol, and the police felt unable to intervene. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 24, 2021, 12:59:30 You could sell some of your stock at a premium! Then simply buy some more in a couple of weeks when people are tired of panicking.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 24, 2021, 13:27:14 You could sell some of your stock at a premium! Then simply buy some more in a couple of weeks when people are tired of panicking. Which reminds me - is anyone short of toilet roll? I need the spare bedrooms back soon. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 24, 2021, 14:03:47 Are there sunflowers in the garden at Broadgage Towers? They would look very pretty around the pumps at "Broadgage Petroleum". ;D
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TaplowGreen on September 24, 2021, 16:39:18 The latest petrol panic is growing, with a significant number of filling stations running out, and long queues at others. I may yet be glad of my modest supply. More than 30 litres Broadgage? If so I'm sure you will have informed your local Petroleum Enforcement Authority, as required by law? Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 24, 2021, 17:43:02 No more than 30 liters as has previously discussed. Stored in two purpose made steel jerry cans each with a capacity of 20 liters but only containing 15 liters.
Red in colour and clearly marked as to contents. Similar cans but blue in colour are used for paraffin, there is no limit on paraffin storage AFAIK. Stored in an outbuilding. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: johnneyw on September 24, 2021, 18:01:19 I hope the country won't talk it's way into a panic buy scenario. The BBC news website today put the amount of petrol stations running out of supply as around 1% of the 8380 in the UK.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on September 24, 2021, 18:37:58 I've seen several social media posts where people are blaming traditional media for the panic buying.
I've not read a single news item that tells people to stock up. In fact, nearly all items have quotes from industry and politicians saying there is no need to panic buy. Classic cases of shooting the messenger. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 24, 2021, 18:52:11 I've seen several social media posts where people are blaming traditional media for the panic buying. I've not read a single news item that tells people to stock up. In fact, nearly all items have quotes from industry and politicians saying there is no need to panic buy. Classic cases of shooting the messenger. It was only when the government said there was no need to panic that I realised how serious this is, and panicked. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: didcotdean on September 24, 2021, 19:10:15 Some newspapers ran some pretty dramatic headlines today:
Now we are running on empty (Daily Mail) Alarm as BP begins petrol rationing (Daily Telegraph) Warning of fuel supply shortages amid supply chain crisis (Guardian) Fuel rationed ... (The i) Out of fuel: Delivery block closes pumps (FT) The actual contents mainly have a "don't panic" theme by and large (words used in The Times headline) and "no real shortage" but this was too late. These supply hiccups have been going on for a month or so with no scare headlines. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 24, 2021, 19:37:42 I suspect that this shortage will not amount to much.
There is plenty of petrol at refineries and bulk storage depots. The problem is a shortage of delivery drivers. That can be overcome by more efficient delivery planning, and if need be by military drivers. Any actual shortage of petrol at refineries would be more serious, but I see no sign of that. Prudent to be prepared though, just in case. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Marlburian on September 24, 2021, 20:49:28 I suspect that this shortage will not amount to much. There is plenty of petrol at refineries and bulk storage depots. The problem is a shortage of delivery drivers. That can be overcome by more efficient delivery planning, and if need be by military drivers. Any actual shortage of petrol at refineries would be more serious, but I see no sign of that. Prudent to be prepared though, just in case. The other problem is people topping up just in case, causing long queues at petrol stations. Stories are emerging of people buying £10 worth of petrol and filling cans. How long does one leave it before taking on petrol? I usually top up when the tank is four-fifths empty, at the moment it's just over half full. I won't be joining any queues, but on short journeys over the weekend will be passing several petrol stations early in the day and if they're quiet might be tempted to pull in. Most of my driving is not essential, so morally should I leave it another week or two and hope that the panic is over? Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: paul7575 on September 24, 2021, 21:42:10 I've seen several social media posts where people are blaming traditional media for the panic buying. I've not read a single news item that tells people to stock up. In fact, nearly all items have quotes from industry and politicians saying there is no need to panic buy. Classic cases of shooting the messenger. It was only when the government said there was no need to panic that I realised how serious this is, and panicked. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 24, 2021, 22:01:14 I suspect that this shortage will not amount to much. There is plenty of petrol at refineries and bulk storage depots. Not really. The refinery blockades of a few years back (when I was driving a LPG car and wasn't even remotely affected) showed what a just-in-time thing fuel is. It isn't quite out of oil tanker, through the refinery, into petrol tanker then straight to Tesco just before the pumps run dry, but it isn't far from it. The seven refineries produced 61 million tonnes of refined product in 2015, which includes heating and aviation as well as ground transport. If we assume that production is broadly similar at about 1.2 million tonnes weekly. I wouldn't be surprised if there was as much fuel in vehicle fuel tanks, fuel station forecourt tanks, and delivery tankers as there is stored in bulk as a reserve. There are about 60 storage terminals around the country, many receiving the motion potion by pipeline from the refineries to dispense into tankers for delivery by road to fuel stations - this is currently the weak link in the chain. Major airports receive fuel by pipeline, so are not going to be affected. But I don't think the shortage will come to a great deal despite this. Some of the pumps were out of action when I filled up (from necessity) yesterday, but enough weren't, and there seemed no great urgency. We don't all fill up the car daily, and, broadgage excepted, don't have facilities for storage at home. I have a 5-litre "can" for the lawnmower, and that is the lot. I fill up usually when I have to, or if I am passing somewhere cheaper than the norm (like Sainsbury in Taunton) but I wouldn't bother unless I was down to a half tank, and normally wait until I get warned. If everybody tops up, it might mean a week of slight shortages. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Western Pathfinder on September 25, 2021, 13:01:24 All this talk Of storing petrol makes me think,that those who do need to be mindful of the fact that E10 which is now standard unleaded petrol does not last anywhere near as long as its predecessor when stored in any form of container, most noticeably when kept for longer periods in metal Jerrycans it releases water vapour,that leads to rusting of the inside of said cans and subsequent contamination of the stored fuel
Thought you might like to know !.. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: bobm on September 25, 2021, 13:17:32 It did amuse me that the BBC sent a reporter to see the situation at a Stockport Petrol Station called Phil McCann.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 25, 2021, 15:01:02 All this talk Of storing petrol makes me think, that those who do need to be mindful of the fact that E10 which is now standard unleaded petrol does not last anywhere near as long as its predecessor when stored in any form of container, most noticeably when kept for longer periods in metal Jerrycans it releases water vapour, that leads to rusting of the inside of said cans and subsequent contamination of the stored fuel Thought you might like to know !.. Indeed. It SHOULD be OK in military spec jerry cans as these are lined with an epoxy paint and said to be suitable not just for petrol, but also for anti freeze, methanol, ethanol, or drinking water. However being of a cautious nature, I expect that future purchases will be of "Aspen 4" a synthetic alternative to traditional petrol which it is claimed keeps better. There is a widely held and erroneous view that Aspen 4 is less of a fire risk and exempt from the storage rules applicable to traditional petrol. https://aspenfuel.co.uk/ (https://aspenfuel.co.uk/) Link to supplier, I confirm that I have no connection with them. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: stuving on September 26, 2021, 13:23:25 I've been trying to find some real numbers for the various stages of road fuel storage, with mixed success. These are thus round numbers at best, for petrol+diesel supplied retail :
Daily volume from retail outlets: 100 M l Number of retail sites: 8000 Number of vehicles: 35-40 M Average fuel tank size: 50 l A big buried fuel tank these days is 30,000 l, and most sites will have at least two. The overall volume stored is enough for six days (this is the least reliable of the numbers). I'll assume car tanks are a bit less than half full and forecourt tanks about half on any given day. So cars have 1000 M l of free fuel space in them Fuel stations have 300 M l of fuel and of space So it only takes one headline - even an entirely bogus one - to trigger a panic and at least local shortages. At the supply end, there is a long-standing requirement (of national resilience) for refineries, import locations, and storage and distribution centres to hold around 60 days supply. This can be a mix of crude and refined products, but the buffer stock before distribution to retailers is certainly bigger than after it. Petrol is the new toilet rolls! Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: paul7575 on September 26, 2021, 13:26:45 Petrol is the new toilet rolls! Paul Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Timmer on September 26, 2021, 13:51:17 Sigh, all so unnecessary but oh so predictable as we saw with the toilet roll fiasco. Drop a story out in the public domain, then stand back and watch them flock to whatever it is there is talk of shortage or supply issues.
Felt for those who really did need to fill up but were prevented from doing so by those with half/three quarters tanks full and worse those who had boot fulls of jerry cans. Petrol stations should have done more quicker to stop the fuel horders. Now there is a problem that wasn’t there before Friday. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 26, 2021, 16:54:35 Agree, I avoid hoarding or panic buying since others may thereby be deprived, and panic buying can be more expensive or entail more trouble than ordinary purchasing.
I do purchase prudent stocks, at ordinary prices, long before any panic or crisis. I had hundreds of toilet rolls LONG BEFORE the great toilet roll panic. I had the maximum lawful amount of petrol LONG BEFORE the last panic. I have a large supply of logs BEFORE the next heating fuel panic. I have half a ton of anthracite BEFORE the next panic. Candles, paraffin, oil lamps and other supplies likewise. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TaplowGreen on September 26, 2021, 17:01:58 I had hundreds of toilet rolls LONG BEFORE the great toilet roll panic. That's an awful lot. Was it a plan you had firmed up, or perhaps more based on a loose scenario? Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Clan Line on September 26, 2021, 18:22:01 Agree, I avoid hoarding or panic buying since others may thereby be deprived, and panic buying can be more expensive or entail more trouble than ordinary purchasing. I do purchase prudent stocks, at ordinary prices, long before any panic or crisis. Yes, of course we believe you ;) ;) (Do you have a red car ??) (https://i.postimg.cc/L6zVG777/Screenshot-2021-09-26-181738.jpg) (https://postimg.cc/D8wsXC7d) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on September 26, 2021, 18:23:11 Agree, I avoid hoarding or panic buying since others may thereby be deprived, and panic buying can be more expensive or entail more trouble than ordinary purchasing. I do purchase prudent stocks, at ordinary prices, long before any panic or crisis. I had hundreds of toilet rolls LONG BEFORE the great toilet roll panic. I had the maximum lawful amount of petrol LONG BEFORE the last panic. I have a large supply of logs BEFORE the next heating fuel panic. I have half a ton of anthracite BEFORE the next panic. Candles, paraffin, oil lamps and other supplies likewise. Avoids hoarding, then goes on to list his hoard. Does "BEFORE" change the definition of what is and isn't hoarding? Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 27, 2021, 01:18:59 Yes in my view, the time and circumstances of purchase DO determine the difference between sensible bulk purchasing and hoarding.
To purchase larger than normal volumes of anything that is in short supply (or clearly about to be in short supply) could reasonably be considered hoarding as others are thereby deprived. So doing might be illegal in time of war or other major emergency, and whilst not illegal under present circumstances is anti social. To obtain large stocks whilst times are normal is sensible pre-planning and hurts nobody. Toilet rolls, and many other goods are cheaper in bulk packs and money may be saved thereby. It could even be argued, that by use of my pre-existing stocks, rather than buying even "normal" numbers of toilet rolls during the shortage was indirectly helping others. The six pack NOT purchased by me, remained on the shelf for someone else to purchase. Similar arguments apply to other goods. Including candles, long life foods, batteries, blankets and long underwear. I have reduced stocks of batteries in the last ten years because modern LED torches and lanterns give a better light for longer than the old incandescent types. (incandescent torch with 4 D cells, and a 4.8 volt 0.75 amp bulb runs for about 12 to 15 hours on one set of batteries. If fitted with a decent LED bulb, the light is better and the run time as long as 80 hours.) I also keep a stock of very low consumption incandescent torch bulbs, these give a miserable light, but better than no light, and economise on batteries. A 2.7 volt, 0.15 amp bulb on two alkaline D cells will give over 100 hours service, and the light is sufficient for indoor use. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on September 27, 2021, 04:55:26 Just remember when buying candles, if you need four, it's better to ask for, "three, plus one more" in the hardware store, to avoid confusion.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TaplowGreen on September 27, 2021, 06:59:18 Just remember when buying candles, if you need four, it's better to ask for, "three, plus one more" in the hardware store, to avoid confusion. No need to worry - there's a cupboard full of fork handles too - just in case! :) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 27, 2021, 13:51:50 To avoid any confusion, I would stock candles in cartons of 50 or more and not in any smaller packs.
Some spare forks might be advisable, complete ones not just the handles! a fairly low priority though, remembering that fingers were invented before forks. Disposable cutlery can be useful for emergencies in case water or fuel for heating washing up water is in short supply. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on September 27, 2021, 14:10:20 remembering that fingers were invented before forks. Disposable cutlery can be useful for emergencies... It's a bit hard to turn over your vegetable patch with your fingers! Disposable cutlery should be avoided too, unless biodegradable/compostable. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Ralph Ayres on September 27, 2021, 14:25:34 I also keep a stock of very low consumption incandescent torch bulbs, these give a miserable light, but better than no light, and economise on batteries. A 2.7 volt, 0.15 amp bulb on two alkaline D cells will give over 100 hours service, and the light is sufficient for indoor use. I'd recommend switching to an LED lamp. Choose the right one and you'd get decent light levels for that 100 hours, or a miserable light virtually for ever on a couple of D-size. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 27, 2021, 16:50:22 remembering that fingers were invented before forks. Disposable cutlery can be useful for emergencies... It's a bit hard to turn over your vegetable patch with your fingers! Disposable cutlery should be avoided too, unless biodegradable/compostable. I have an existing stash of disposable plastic cutlery for emergencies. The environmental harm from manufacture has already been done, and nothing is to be gained by discarding the items unused. I do not intend to buy any more plastic cutlery, any future purchases will be the biodegradable wood sort. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 27, 2021, 19:49:52 remembering that fingers were invented before forks. Disposable cutlery can be useful for emergencies... It's a bit hard to turn over your vegetable patch with your fingers! Disposable cutlery should be avoided too, unless biodegradable/compostable. I have an existing stash of disposable plastic cutlery for emergencies. The environmental harm from manufacture has already been done, and nothing is to be gained by discarding the items unused. I do not intend to buy any more plastic cutlery, any future purchases will be the biodegradable wood sort. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 27, 2021, 20:01:55 If water itself is in short supply, we probably have more pressing worries than dirty cutlery. Passers by are amazed when they see me produce water from my butt. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Witham Bobby on September 28, 2021, 10:01:01 Passers by are amazed when they see me produce water from my butt. I line worthy of the pen belonging to Mick Sturbs and read by Terry Wogan Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on September 28, 2021, 18:43:23 Moving back to petrol, things appeared normal this morning when I drove to Tiverton, or at least as normal as they get. Tesco had a couple of customers filling up, the expensive independent garage had its usual empty forecourt, and a fuel tanker driven by someone in civilian clobber passed by, en route maybe to the other indie, or Morrison. All was calm, with no pitchforks in evidence.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Richard Fairhurst on September 28, 2021, 19:57:35 Spotted on Twitter...
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FAU4jaNWYAAbd2z?format=jpg&name=small) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on September 29, 2021, 12:33:02 The situation does appear to have improved markedly.
The nearest filling station to me has a short queue, but not "rabid" as was the case a few days ago. Heating oil deliveries are reported as being delayed by "a few days" I suspect that petrol and diesel was prioritised over heating oil, a reasonable response. Outside the main heating season, heating oil is often available next day. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Red Squirrel on September 29, 2021, 12:40:55 We've not seen any problems at all at our local filling station...
(https://fosbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/ev_charging.jpg) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: grahame on September 30, 2021, 08:17:17 From the BBC - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58735299
End of Furlough ... Quote The number of workers on furlough has fallen steadily this year as lockdown restrictions eased and businesses reopened but the latest figures available showed about 1.6 million remained on the scheme in July. [snip] But the foundation's recent research suggested that a small rise in unemployment was a "real risk" for those still on the scheme as it ends, particularly older workers or those in the travel sector. [snip] According to Citizens Advice, people could work elsewhere while furloughed - if their employment contract allowed. Many forecasters, including the Bank of England, are expecting a small rise in unemployment now the scheme has ended. It would be simplistic to suggest that there are people in the "travel sector" mentioned who could start helping goods travel around in lorries, wouldn't it? Yet in reality in a changed world, this sort of re-use of people is very much on the agenda. And that's whether the changes are due to climate change, Brexit, covid, an ageing population, the greed of business tycoons, the increasingly nanny state, globalisation or because it's the year of the Ox and the month of Libra at present. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on October 03, 2021, 03:49:35 This is hilarious.
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-58767230): Quote Fuel supplies: Mortar tanker tailed by drivers looking for petrol A tanker driver has told how he was tailed by about 20 drivers who were dismayed to discover he was not transporting petrol. Johnny Anderson, who drives for Weaver Haulage, was transporting 44 tonnes of mortar from Bilston, Wolverhampton, to a building site in Northamptonshire. When he reached his destination, he saw a line of traffic backed up behind him. "The man at the front... actually said 'You could have stopped and told us you weren't a petrol tanker," he said. The incident came as lengthy queues formed at forecourts amid petrol and diesel supply problems. Mr Anderson, from Harworth, Nottinghamshire, said he was delivering cement to the David Wilson Homes development at Overstone on Thursday. He was on the A43 when he first realised he was being followed. "I didn't notice initially but then on the dual carriageway, I noticed nobody was overtaking me and saw a string of about 20 cars behind me," he said. "When I eventually turned left into a road that would take me to the site entrance, all these cars turned left with me." Three-quarters of a mile later, when he stopped at the site entrance, he heard car horns honking, he said. Thinking something had fallen off his vehicle, he got out and saw the queue of vehicles. "The man at the front wound down his window and asked me which petrol station I was going to," he said. "When I said I wasn't, he asked me 'Why not?' and when I said I wasn't carrying petrol, he actually said 'You could have stopped and told us you weren't a petrol tanker.' "I couldn't believe it... I just went full McEnroe and said 'You cannot be serious!' "Then the bloke behind asked me where the nearest petrol station was. It just beggars belief." Mr Anderson, who has been driving double-bellied mortar tankers for about six years, said while it was "quite funny", there was also a serious side. "My cargo isn't dangerous but if they are following a petrol tanker, their training is to call the police if they think they're being followed," he said. "People need to stop and think... driving a tanker, no matter what the product, is quite a pressurised job, so following them puts extra pressure on drivers already under pressure without having to worry about absolute morons." Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on October 03, 2021, 11:51:59 And how much petrol was consumed in following the tanker ?
And fuel tankers have to display signs warning of the flammability of the contents, but I suppose you can not expect the average motorist to understand that. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: grahame on October 03, 2021, 12:52:07 And fuel tankers have to display signs warning of the flammability of the contents, but I suppose you can not expect the average motorist to understand that. Doesn't everyone know their 3YE-1203 from their 1T-1910? Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on October 03, 2021, 14:15:48 And fuel tankers have to display signs warning of the flammability of the contents, but I suppose you can not expect the average motorist to understand that. Doesn't everyone know their 3YE-1203 from their 1T-1910? Not in detail, though I do know that 3YE is commonly applied to petrol tankers, and to other loads that present similar risks, not ONLY petrol. The numeral 3 warns firefighters that water is not generally* appropriate, and that foam or dry powder should be used in case of fire. The "E" warns that evacuation should be considered in the event of accident. If you discover an emergency involving dangerous goods, ring the fire brigade and if possible tell them what hazchem code is on the vehicle or building. * Water must not be used if the cargo is already on fire. Water can be used if say the engine or cab are on fire, to prevent the fire from heating the cargo. Water CAN be used if an unrelated fire breaks out near near a petrol tank, to extinguish the fire and prevent spread, or to cool the petrol tanker. If petrol or gas is already burning, water CAN be used to cool nearby buildings or tanks and prevent spread, but must NOT be applied to the fire. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on October 03, 2021, 16:09:14 And how much petrol was consumed in following the tanker ? And fuel tankers have to display signs warning of the flammability of the contents, but I suppose you can not expect the average motorist to understand that. Or mortarist, for that matter. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: paul7575 on October 03, 2021, 23:01:27 And fuel tankers have to display signs warning of the flammability of the contents, but I suppose you can not expect the average motorist to understand that. Doesn't everyone know their 3YE-1203 from their 1T-1910? Paul Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on October 04, 2021, 14:49:22 As has already been said, the current petrol panic is largely due to panic buying with no shortage of the fuel at depots and refineries.
That however might change. Greenpeace have blockaded the Shell oil facility at Rotterdam. If this is long continued or repeated elsewhere then there is the potential for actual shortages. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211004-greenpeace-boats-block-dutch-shell-refinery (https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211004-greenpeace-boats-block-dutch-shell-refinery) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Timmer on October 04, 2021, 18:45:27 As has already been said, the current petrol panic is largely due to panic buying with no shortage of the fuel at depots and refineries. Oh please no!!!That however might change. Greenpeace have blockaded the Shell oil facility at Rotterdam. If this is long continued or repeated elsewhere then there is the potential for actual shortages. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211004-greenpeace-boats-block-dutch-shell-refinery (https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211004-greenpeace-boats-block-dutch-shell-refinery) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Lee on October 04, 2021, 19:24:20 As has already been said, the current petrol panic is largely due to panic buying with no shortage of the fuel at depots and refineries. Oh please no!!!That however might change. Greenpeace have blockaded the Shell oil facility at Rotterdam. If this is long continued or repeated elsewhere then there is the potential for actual shortages. https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211004-greenpeace-boats-block-dutch-shell-refinery (https://www.france24.com/en/live-news/20211004-greenpeace-boats-block-dutch-shell-refinery) I was just completing my petrol station manager training at a Texaco in Portsmouth when the fuel protests/blockades of September 2000 took place, and to say that it was a baptism of fire would be somewhat of an understatement. When it ended, we were told that had it gone on any longer that we would have had to prepare - and I can still quote exactly - for a "breakdown of society event" - The situation was considered that serious. Less than a month later I was managing my own petrol station in Gosport, and it was as if it never happened. I wouldnt want to go through the experience again though, and certainly not beyond the extent it got to in 2000. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Timmer on October 04, 2021, 19:44:38 When you combine the petrol station issue with the antics of insulate Britain around and now in London, that “breakdown of society event” may not be far off.
When you are attempting to change the way we do things that improves the environment around us you need the public on your side and right now neither the government or these protesters have them on their side. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on October 04, 2021, 20:03:53 When you combine the petrol station issue with the antics of insulate Britain around and now in London, that “breakdown of society event” may not be far off. When you are attempting to change the way we do things that improves the environment around us you need the public on your side and right now neither the government or these protesters have them on their side. Indeed. Whilst I have considerable sympathy with the aims of "insulate Britain" They are making themselves very unpopular indeed. Some have been forcibly removed by enraged drivers. Sooner or later an even more enraged driver will simply run them over. If the police attempted to arrest the driver I suspect that they would have a large and very angry mob on their hands. The mob might well succeed in releasing the motorist. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on October 05, 2021, 01:52:58 I was just completing my petrol station manager training at a Texaco in Portsmouth when the fuel protests/blockades of September 2000 took place, and to say that it was a baptism of fire would be somewhat of an understatement. When it ended, we were told that had it gone on any longer that we would have had to prepare - and I can still quote exactly - for a "breakdown of society event" - The situation was considered that serious. Less than a month later I was managing my own petrol station in Gosport, and it was as if it never happened. I wouldnt want to go through the experience again though, and certainly not beyond the extent it got to in 2000. The situation in 2000 would not have been allowed to progress to a "breakdown of society event" As a very last resort martial law could have been declared and the protesters removed with as much violence as needed, including simply running them over or shooting them. Of much greater concern in my view would be events overseas that reduce the supply of oil into the UK. No amount of armed force applied WITHIN the UK would increase the supply in such a situation. This novel is about that sort of thing, and I recommend it. https://www.fantasticfiction.com/s/alex-scarrow/last-light.htm (https://www.fantasticfiction.com/s/alex-scarrow/last-light.htm) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on October 05, 2021, 02:38:26 Really, broadgage?
The UK doesn't, and actually can't, even under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, run over and shoot peaceful protesters. That would be illegal under the Human Rights Act 1998. HRA 1998 is the one piece of legislation that cannot be amended, superseded or ignored when enacting emergency measures under CCA 2004. Even if the protesters turned violent there wouldn't be an order to arbitrarily kill civilians. Arrests, military backed dispersal, curfews, road blocks... all yes. Shoot-to-kill? No. Judicial processes would still function under the Civil Contingencies Act. If you want to further enflame civil unrest then extra-judicial killing is certainly the way to go. ::) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on October 05, 2021, 02:57:03 Really, broadgage? The UK doesn't, and actually can't, even under the Civil Contingencies Act 2004, run over and shoot peaceful protesters. That would illegal under the Human Rights Act 1998. HRA 1998 is the one piece of legislation that cannot be amended, superceded or ignored when enacting emergency measures under CCA 2004. Even if the protesters turned violent there wouldn't be an order to arbitrarily kill civilians. Arrests, military backed dispersal, curfews, road blocks... all yes. Shoot-to-kill? No. Judicial processes would still function under the Civil Contingencies Act. If you want to further enflame civil unrest then extra-judicial killing is certainly the way to go. ::) It seems unlikely, but is I suspect just about possible under extreme circumstances. And of course in wartime "saboteurs" can be shot out of hand. If you wish to cheer yourself up, try reading "Last Light" which will hopefully remain fiction. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on October 05, 2021, 03:09:23 What is and isn't possible is defined by law.
And we're talking about civil unrest, not war. Can civil unrest lead to civil war? Absolutely. But a fuel shortage or protest is a long, long way from outright war. One thing is certain though. If there was major civil unrest and an armed uprising then those that have a stash of petrol and other supplies are going to be targets. EDIT: Oh, and I've read Alex Scarrow's 'Last Light' and quite a few other 'apocalypse' thrillers. Good escapist fun, but the premise would never happen. I read HG Wells and listened to Jeff Wayne as a kid. I'm still waiting for Martians to land on Horsell Common. :P Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on February 04, 2022, 00:53:57 Those who have NOT already prudently stocked petrol, might need to start panic buying.
Considerable disruption to European distribution of oil and oil products is reported due to a large hacking attack on oil infrastructure. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60250956 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60250956) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 04, 2022, 11:59:04 I'd suggest that if there is to be a continent-wide shortage of oil products, priority should go to emergency services followed by power stations and heating of essential buildings (eg hospitals), distribution of food and similar, with personal transport use way down the list.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on February 04, 2022, 12:19:59 Agree entirely, and such a scheme would no doubt be introduced, a bit too late.
Very few hospitals use oil for heating, gas is almost universal. Though there are unrelated concerns WRT to natural gas supply. Very few power stations burn oil, gas is almost universal. Some gas fired power stations CAN burn light oil as an emergency alternative in case of a gas shortage. The main concern would be road transport which is almost entirely oil powered. Most motorists accept the need for giving priority to essential users, provided of course that THEY are essential users, it is the others who should cut back ! Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on February 04, 2022, 12:51:57 Some reports suggest that the cyber attack on the oil industry is getting worse.
https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252512974/Cyber-attacks-on-European-oil-facilities-spreading (https://www.computerweekly.com/news/252512974/Cyber-attacks-on-European-oil-facilities-spreading) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on February 04, 2022, 15:27:47 Those who have NOT already prudently stocked petrol, might need to start panic buying. Considerable disruption to European distribution of oil and oil products is reported due to a large hacking attack on oil infrastructure. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60250956 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-60250956) I stopped and filled up at Trago Mills on the way home from Plymouth today. It always looks like the start of the apocalypse there, but the fuel is "cheap". This will hopefully be over by the time I need to fill up again. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: IndustryInsider on February 04, 2022, 15:48:14 Remember everyone, the quicker you panic the less of a panic it will be for you.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on February 04, 2022, 16:03:20 KEEP CALM
AND DON'T PANIC Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on February 19, 2022, 10:12:05 Members will be glad to know that my petrol supply has again proved most useful.
20 litres loaned to a local farmer to power chainsaws for cutting up fallen trees. They had the maximum lawful volume of 30 litres stored on their premises but this proved insufficient. The other 10 litres supplied to someone reliant on a petrol fueled generator for medical equipment. In fact their own 30 litre supply was JUST sufficient, but only just. Another hour or two without mains electricity could have had most serious consequences. There is no general petrol shortage at present, but that does not help if local filling stations are closed for various reasons, including, no staff, no electricity to operate the pumps, out of petrol and no re-supply due to blocked roads. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on March 02, 2022, 11:15:50 Only just managed to restock before the next petrol panic, which is now well underway.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Sixty3Closure on March 03, 2022, 00:25:25 Having recently had a long power cut I'm thinking about buying a generator which will mean storing petrol. A battery generator doesn't appear to have enough power for my needs although would be more convenient.
Not having mains water I'm reliant on pump which of course needs electricity. A small generator would mean we continue to have drinking water. Heat and cooking come from an oil fired range and log burner. I feel like I'm joining Broadgage in preparing for the zombie apocalypse. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on March 03, 2022, 06:43:41 A generator does not HAVE to be petrol burning, though most smaller generators are petrol.
Propane generators exist but are less common. Propane is at present hugely expensive and in short supply, large volumes may be kept. Diesel generators are much cheaper to run, and the fuel is safer to store. There is almost no limit on diesel storage. If you drive a petrol car or use a petrol motorcycle, then a petrol generator has the merit that the same fuel supply may be used in either vehicle or generator. Most petrol generators have small fuel tanks and need frequent refueling. If you drive a diesel vehicle, then a diesel generator might be best to simplify fuel storage. Whilst red diesel may be legally used in a domestic generator, I would store the more costly white diesel in order that it may lawfully be used on the road if need be. A diesel generator will often run 24 hours without refueling. If you already use propane, then a propane generator is worth considering, they run for days on the larger cylinders and for a month or more on a bulk tank. If you do not already use propane, then I would avoid the complication of adding another type of fuel. The size of the generator will obviously depend on what you wish to run, but I often recommend a minimum 4 kw for a modest home. Allow about 1 kw in total for lighting and for the multitude of low loading appliances found in most homes. TV, computer, fridge, freezer, heating boiler/pump, cellphone charger, cordless phone base unit, internet router, a dozen low energy lamps. Then allow 3 kw to permit use of just one heavy loading appliance. Kettle, toaster, washing machine, water heater, microwave oven, power tool, vacuum cleaner, portable heater, table top size electric cooker, hair dryer, and the like, but ONLY ONE such appliance at a time. For a larger home, I would suggest a minimum of 7 kw. That allows 1.5 kw for lighting and small appliances, more lamps and some duplication of small appliances. And allows about 5.5 kw for use of any two of the larger loading appliances listed previously. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 03, 2022, 10:36:14 In India, where every business larger than a corner shop has its own generator, they're all diesel not petrol. Another factor to beware of is that testing of hospital generators in the UK has shown that most of them don't work when needed, simply because they're virtually never needed. Again, certainly not a problem encountered in a country like India! And of course they are very noisy and smelly. You'll want to site it as far from the house as possible.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on March 03, 2022, 11:08:31 A modern diesel generator will probably be less noisy and cleaner burning than the possibly well used examples found in India.
I would still use it at least three meters away from ones house, further is better. Keep it well secured with a SUBSTANTIAL padlock and chain. Generators attract the pilfering classes. Take great care WRT the electrical arrangements. For a basic but new diesel generator with an output of 4 kw, expect to pay in the region of £2,000. Larger sizes do not cost that much more. That will be for a 3,000 rpm machine which is fine for standby use but not for prolonged use. I would with care fuel a diesel engine whilst running. If considering a standby generator, then also install a few self contained emergency lights. To light your bathroom, the stairs, the kitchen, and where you keep the generator. Be certain that these are the "proper" emergency lights as used in public buildings and NOT domestic rubbish. They run for a minimum of 3 hours and are fully automatic. Replace the battery every five years, or earlier if found wanting. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Sixty3Closure on March 03, 2022, 17:32:31 Thank you for the information- very useful.
We're probably looking at a 600w-1KW generator only to power the pump and water treatment plant. It would be stored in the shed with the pump and filters. It already has a hefty padlock although we're so remote any theft would either be obvious as never see people or easy if we're not around and you could make as much noise as you want. I did wonder about filtering the air which might mean leaving the shed door open although noise shouldn't be a problem. We were thinking aspen petrol as it has a longer life and can be used in the mower. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on March 03, 2022, 18:00:51 Be careful if using a generator for a water pump. Some water pumps have substantial starting currents and may be beyond the capacity of of a generator that sounds sufficient.
Aspen petrol does indeed keep better and burns cleaner, still subject to the 30 liter limit though. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on March 15, 2022, 15:13:31 If you drive a petrol car or use a petrol motorcycle, then a petrol generator has the merit that the same fuel supply may be used in either vehicle or generator. Most petrol generators have small fuel tanks and need frequent refueling. If you drive a diesel vehicle, then a diesel generator might be best to simplify fuel storage. Whilst red diesel may be legally used in a domestic generator, I would store the more costly white diesel in order that it may lawfully be used on the road if need be. A diesel generator will often run 24 hours without refueling. If you drive an electric vehicle, then an electr.... Hang on, I'll get my coat. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on April 08, 2022, 19:15:29 If you drive a petrol car or use a petrol motorcycle, then a petrol generator has the merit that the same fuel supply may be used in either vehicle or generator. Most petrol generators have small fuel tanks and need frequent refueling. If you drive a diesel vehicle, then a diesel generator might be best to simplify fuel storage. Whilst red diesel may be legally used in a domestic generator, I would store the more costly white diesel in order that it may lawfully be used on the road if need be. A diesel generator will often run 24 hours without refueling. If you drive an electric vehicle, then an electr.... Hang on, I'll get my coat. Some of the newer electric cars incorporate a 13 amp socket, powered from the battery via a suitable converter. Some at least are good for a full 13 amps for as long as the battery lasts. Could be useful for domestic standby purposes, if the loads are modest. 1 kw for 24 hours would still leave enough charge in the battery for local journeys. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Red Squirrel on April 09, 2022, 11:57:24 It may at first seem bizarre, but you can use this feature to rescue another EV with a flat battery. Not as quick as siphoning out some petrol, but in an hour or so you may be able to transfer enough energy to get them to a charge point.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on April 12, 2022, 22:12:52 It may at first seem bizarre, but you can use this feature to rescue another EV with a flat battery. Not as quick as siphoning out some petrol, but in an hour or so you may be able to transfer enough energy to get them to a charge point. Have you tried to siphon petrol from a modern car? Not as easy as in the olden days unless you go equipped, as they say on the charge sheet. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on June 14, 2022, 22:35:34 A train strike is almost inevitable.
Although freight operators are NOT striking, they will be severely impacted by signalers and other network rail staff striking. Most petrol and diesel fuel is transported in bulk by rail, with final distribution by road to filling stations. I don't think that the sheeple have realised yet, but any day now ! This would be a good time for road tanker drivers to strike. Sympathetic strike action is prohibited, but nothing prohibits independent strike action that happens to occur at the same time. This would also be a good time for XR to disrupt fuel supplies. Or for terrorists to blow up anything fuel related. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: ellendune on June 14, 2022, 22:39:08 Most petrol and diesel fuel is transported in bulk by rail, with final distribution by road to filling stations. I am not sure this is true any more. I thought most of it went by pipeline to the distribution depots. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on June 14, 2022, 23:46:30 There is certainly some pipeline distribution, but AFAIK a lot still goes by rail.
Does anyone have actual figures as to what percentage of UK liquid fuel is transported by rail ? Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: WSW Frome on June 15, 2022, 09:49:35 Very limited distribution of fuel by rail these days. Most by pipeline to the distribution centres. I do not have the data.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Red Squirrel on June 15, 2022, 11:43:03 Very limited distribution of fuel by rail these days. Most by pipeline to the distribution centres. I do not have the data. Wikipedia supports this view: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_freight_in_Great_Britain Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on June 15, 2022, 12:27:57 Wikipedia supports this view: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_freight_in_Great_Britain Further information is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_oil_pipeline_network#Petroleum_product_pipelines Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on June 15, 2022, 13:11:29 Thanks for the information, no need to panic.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: stuving on June 15, 2022, 15:25:43 Another way of looking at this is from data on gross flows of all oil products from DUKES 2018. All numbers are millions of tonnes of something in a year.
UK refining gave 30 for domestic use (plus 28 exported), and imports were 35, totalling 65 for inland delivery. Road transport used 36 - more than half. That includes retail, for cars and other vehicles, plus other distribution routes. From the GOS Foresight paper "Understanding the UK Freight Transport System", we find that the volume of petroleum products moved by rail was stable at about 5 from 2004 to 2017. That must include much of the stuff that can't be sent down a shared-use pipeline, so the amount of standard products like road vehicle and aircraft fuels must be much smaller. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Red Squirrel on June 15, 2022, 17:19:46 Wikipedia supports this view: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_freight_in_Great_Britain Further information is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UK_oil_pipeline_network#Petroleum_product_pipelines Intrigued by the smorgasbord of units in the Wikipedia article TonyK linked to - it mixes ancient and modern in the same column, or even cell. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on June 15, 2022, 18:20:54 Intrigued by the smorgasbord of units in the Wikipedia article TonyK linked to - it mixes ancient and modern in the same column, or even cell. I didn't write it. ;D Had I done so, I would have in all likelihood opted for tonnes rather than tons, definitely mm for diameters, and kPa for pressure. That last is easily converted to bar or kNm2 if preferred. Many of the pipelines were built in old money during WW2, a pipeline being harder to spot from a Heinkel than a train, but I should think there will be a formula to link capacity and flow rate to diameter which will be a darn sight easier if everything divides by 10. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Bmblbzzz on June 28, 2022, 01:22:27 I'm intrigued to discover the "Tranmere mile", 9 of which equal 24 kilometres.
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on March 21, 2023, 13:08:56 The broadgage strategic petrol reserve may again be needed. A number of local filling stations are now out of fuel.
https://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/19607888.live-panic-buying-brings-petrol-shortages-somerset/ (https://www.somersetcountygazette.co.uk/news/19607888.live-panic-buying-brings-petrol-shortages-somerset/) I am not aware of any underlying reason for the reported shortages, seems to be simply panic buying as reported. There is however a planned strike by some tanker drivers latter this month. That could lead to actual reductions in supply and to significant shortages. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: JayMac on March 21, 2023, 13:17:01 Discount for forum members BG? :P ;) ;D
Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: Mark A on March 21, 2023, 14:13:53 Undated, so not immediately obvious, but I think that's an article from 2021.
Mark Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on March 21, 2023, 15:43:44 Undated, so not immediately obvious, but I think that's an article from 2021. Mark Quite possibly, but my search for relevant on-line news reports was prompted by BBC local radio reporting that a number of filling stations were out of fuel. The radio reports were definitely current news. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on March 22, 2023, 09:10:11 Discount for forum members BG? :P ;) ;D Possibly, but I do not normally require any payment, instead I request that that the person receiving the petrol replaces it after the emergency, at whatever the market price is then prevailing. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on July 21, 2023, 22:45:22 We've not seen any problems at all at our local filling station... (https://fosbr.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/ev_charging.jpg) To quote an old adage, if you can't beat a Red Squirrel, you should join a Red Squirrel. (https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/53062096271_a2bfa92d97_c.jpg) Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on July 25, 2023, 05:20:11 Strike at oil refinery, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66223036 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66223036)
Time to prepare perhaps. If those striking get what they want, then I expect more such disputes "if they won XX% we want the same, or a bit more" If the strikers do not achieve their aims then I expect a prolonged dispute. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: stuving on July 25, 2023, 09:49:39 Strike at oil refinery, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66223036 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66223036) Time to prepare perhaps. If those striking get what they want, then I expect more such disputes "if they won XX% we want the same, or a bit more" If the strikers do not achieve their aims then I expect a prolonged dispute. From that report they are not refinery workers, but work at the refinery for construction subcontractors. A refinery always some of that going on, but stopping their work should not directly affect operations. Obviously how that evolves depends on other union members at the refinery, picket lines, etc. Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: TonyK on July 25, 2023, 10:25:06 Strike at oil refinery, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66223036 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-66223036) Time to prepare perhaps. If those striking get what they want, then I expect more such disputes "if they won XX% we want the same, or a bit more" If the strikers do not achieve their aims then I expect a prolonged dispute. I'm ready, and so is RS. ;D Title: Re: Storing petrol Post by: broadgage on October 15, 2023, 09:35:19 The broadgage strategic petrol reserve may yet again prove useful.
Looking at events in the Middle east, an Arab oil embargo seems a likely response. I remember the last one ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_oil_crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_oil_crisis) And the one before that https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_oil_crisis) Which had in more in common with current events. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |