Great Western Coffee Shop

From Facebook - Pewsey Notice Board (https://www.facebook.com/groups/pewseynoticeboard/permalink/10156792905547686/)

That depends on whether GWR move the peak time restrictions to take into account of the new train time.

Indeed. 

At present the GWR site will sell you...

12th December, returns Pewsey to Paddington leaving Pewsey at
07:22 for £120
08:10 for £53.60
10:18 for £40.40

19th December, returns Pewsey to Paddington leaving Pewsey at
07:19 for £120
08:17 for £120
09:30 for £53.60
11:01 for £40.40

There are some good advance fares around on some days, and of course the lower return fares listed above also restrict the time you can return from London.

That's not the point - quite the opposite. The current restriction code for off-peak returns (LC) says they are valid for trains after 7:54 - so OK at 8:10, and a fortiori at 8:17. The question is why the times for that code change in December, because they do. Extracting just the Pewsey lines from the long list of "unpublished restrictions" on BRFares (i.e. the machine-understandable version of the text):

Apologies for not tidying up the messy format, but as you can see the start of off-peak moves forward to 9:00 in December, but moves back to 7:55 next May.

Now that train (currently the 8:17, later the 8:10) arrives in London well before the normal threshold time for off-peak travel from bigger stations (with more trains), which is why the restrictions are applied one by one to origin stations. Code FO, applying to a wider range of stations (e.g. Reading and Hungerford) has a similar "concession" - and it does the same thing between 15/12/19 and 27/5/20. For Reading the shift is only from 9:29 to 9:39, but it looks to me as if this "mean" version is a direct implementation of "off-peak is available starting with the first train to arrive at Paddington from here after 10:29". It does look like someone's got a program that does this, and has used it uncritically -  unless someone knows of a plan to withdraw these "concessions". Just for six months.

I just found another anomaly post 15/12/19

On the National Rail Enquiries website, if I select an off peak return on the 0930 from Pewsey to Padd @£53.60 it shows that it is not valid on the return departures from Padd at 1638 / 1704 / 1737 / 1807

However, if I select a super off peak return on the 1100 (or later) from Pewsey to Padd @£40.40 it shows that it is valid for ANY departure from Padd to Pewsey.

That's generated in much the same way. The super off-peak restriction code (XC) also switches to something much more severe in December, then back again in May. Outward from Pewsey, the banned times of morning are 0230–0854 now and from May and 0430–1029 from December. Hence the 09:30 stops being available on an SSR. For return from Paddington in the evening, the now and future ban applies 1507–1855 and 1858–1900, while for the December-May period there just isn't any - instead there is an arrivals ban for 1502–1900!

I can understand that the shorter journey times might suggest to GWR management that they should redo the calculation of other-end times based on the veto times at the Paddington end. However, if that's what was intended then it's not been done correctly. It would not be surprising if it was done incompletely, given the scramble to get the timetable together not too long after T-12. However, it's wronger even than that.

It seems the GWR timetable change in December is descending into a complete farce. Let's hope GWR sorts it out as lost of people in Pewsey are getting very angry about this.

Apparently it's going to be discussed on BBC Wiltshire tomorrow!

The trains allowable on an off-peak ticket from Paddington in the late afternoon / early evening also don't look quite right to many destinations. Mind you it often isn't around even a minor timetable change as it is handled so clunkily.

It may be a much more minor change and inconvenience than referenced earlier, but the first off-peak train to London from Didcot will become the 9:27 rather than the 9:17 (not that long ago it was the 9:01). The arrival of this has been accelerated by two minutes, and the valid period put back by one minute so it will arrive three minutes earlier into London than the off-peak valid time rather than bang on it.

With all the Peak/Off Peak anomalies cropping up due to changes to train times I hope that GWR will allow an 'amnesty' period (preferably into mid January 2020) for passengers.

If they are cocking up the fares database then it wouldn't be fair to ching passengers with Off Peak tickets whose only crime is travelling at a slightly different time than they've become used to only because of timetable changes.

Same happening here on the Cotswold Line. Savers (i.e. Off-Peak period returns) have been valid since time immemorial on the 06.42 from Hereford (08.35 from Charlbury), which eventually rumbles into Paddington at 09.47. With the timetable change, it's being reclassified as a peak train, seemingly deliberately.

A few years ago after a timetable change the train listed in the fares manual as having a Goldcard easement on the Cotswold line disappeared. It was replaced with a train that ran slightly earlier and I wanted to check if the easement applied to this train also. So I called National Rail Enquiries specifically to the call centre in India and asked. They said they don't have access to the fares manual which was no help and odd given they're supposed to handle enquiries.

So I called FGW/GWR and asked them the same question. A very nice bloke there checked the new manual for me. He was surprised to find that they hadn't updated things and the old train was still listed. He told me that looking at it historically there was always an easement on the last train before 10am. So he checked with a supervisor and then gave me his name. He said they were authorising the use of a Goldcard for that train and to refer the train manager to him if challenged.

Though in that example the time of the following train is much closer from December - 09:10 as opposed to 09:41, reaching Paddington at 10:24 rather than 10:57.  That's probably a fairer time for off-peak tickets to be valid from, but I can see the 09:10 becoming an even more popular train than it is now if it is a 5-car as the 09:41 is currently and it becomes the first off-peak train.

My understanding is that GWR feel, with a generally hourly service improvement, the Cotswold Line is to lose most of their easements and is to fall into line with their general restrictions. so 1000 for the off-peak cutr of at PAD, with the 'usual' evening restrictions also

For Charlbury, that's borne out by journey planners, and by the restriction code - GN. There's no text to say what the morning peak is - just the unpublished restrictions, which give specific peak departure times of 0430–0819 now but 0430–0844 come December. For return times there is in this case a simple statement:

The unpublished restrictions say just that, within a minute, through to after December.

GN includes Hereford as an origin, with morning peak coded as 0430–0641 - just not snaring the 0642. For the new timetable that's 0430–0655, which all fits with what ChrisB said about the whole line.

But the JPs won't allow the 0642 on an SVR from Hereford, and that's because that ticket has a different code - GK. And GK (which appears to be designed just for Hereford) has peak departures at 0230–0705 now, ruling out the 0642. Come December 15th, that changes to be less restrictive, but only to 0430–0655 (which doesn't seem to affect any trains). For return times there is in this case a similar simple statement:


but that's not what the unpublished restrictions say; there it is currently 1641–1846, though after December 15th it is 1641–1831.

While some of that makes some sense, a lot of it doesn't.

For many of us who use trains at about that time (e.g. from Swindon) there will be incredulity that anyone boarding a London bound train between 07:00 and 09:00 would ever expect it to be anything other than a peak train. 

Indeed ... the historic differences from Network South East area (which includes Hereford via Evesham and Exeter via Axminster, but not Swindon) to areas outside, and the special cases / easements brought about by gaps in the timetable (up to 4 hours in places) have lead to some situations where those at stations with limited service have got some very attractive fares at the peak shoulder.  Logic suggests that with 76% of train times changing (GWR data) and gaps such as the 4 hours reduced to 2, some rethink of the special cases is appropriate.  Which is not to say it won't be a very serious issue to people who are regular users of the fare / time combos that have been attractive purely because there were no other available trains.

Small correction - I believe Hereford wasn't in the NSE area - Worcester Stations was the extremity of the NSE area at that end of the COtswold Line - hence the Network Card being valid only to those stations and not beyond.

Thanks for that, Chris ... I must have got confused between the limits of NSE and the limits of working of class 165/166 which (in those days) were the Paddington suburban trains.  ;)

As alluded upthread, the sparse (and slower) service was historically the reason. The 08.30ish from Charlbury would get you into Paddington at 10.00, as would an 09.00 departure from Swindon. But whereas in Swindon you'd typically have to wait a few minutes for a subsequent IC125 on which off-peak tickets were valid, on the Cotswold Line it would typically have been well over an hour, and that for a Turbo.

To be honest, given the existence of the 09.10 - which was indeed the reason GWR gave us at a recent Charlbury Town Council meeting - I'm a lot less exercised by this than by the evening peak changes in 2015. Indeed, the 18.22 ex-Pad being retimed to 18.52 is good from a fares point of view. I suspect the bleeding to Chiltern will continue, though.

The Network Card boundary was extended out from Oxford to Worcester on 28 May 1995. I think this was to reflect that through turbo services had become the norm by then.

...and it's not just Pewsey passengers getting angry. Looks like similar issues will affect passengers from Bedwyn, Hungerford, Kintbury, etc.

Interesting view from a local;

Surprised?
Its obvious people use this service at these times who drive from the towns and cities to get the cheaper fare, it was never going to last for ever.
I frequently use Bedwyn, Hungerford and Kintbury car parks and they are full daily of commuters who drive to the station to get the cheap London fares.

Another success for my crystal ball ?
Years ago, before the IETs entered service, there was considerable speculation and discussion on these forums as to how these hugely expensive trains would be paid for.
Some forecast that substantial fare increases would be imposed in order to pay for the "improved" trains whilst other pointed to an official statement that stated that no increases in regulated fares would be imposed beyond the normal slightly above inflation rate.

I forecast that "headline" fare increases would indeed be modest and limited to only slightly above the inflation rate.
But I also forecast "hidden fare increases" would be achieved by careful adjustments to charge peak time fares for journeys previously considered to be off peak.

And yet, on the three occasions I've driven to Bedwyn in recent months, to catch an Off Peak service, I've had no problem parking. The hordes of commuters have kindly left a few spaces.

I don't remember anyone disagreeing with that possibility - like car park charges it's an excellent way of getting in more money but not being in breach of any regulated fares rulings.

Tell me, do you predict the same will happen for other stations over time?

I ask, because checking the fares and restrictions for some of the biggest hitters on the GWR network, namely Cardiff Central, Bristol TM, Bath Spa and Swindon, there is a general improvement on when off-peak and super off-peak fares become valid from December when compared with now. 

Listing the arrival times (as they are more relevant than the departure times):
Cardiff:   First off-peak arrival is 10:37 now, and becomes 10:12 from December.  First super off-peak arrival is 12:00 now, and becomes 11:39 in December.
Bristol TM/Bath Spa/Swindon:  First off-peak arrival is 10:14 now, and becomes 10:07 from December.  First super off-peak arrival is 11:39 now, and becomes 11:37 in December.

I would have thought changes at those stations would have a much bigger impact than at smaller stations such as Charlbury, Pewsey and Bedwyn?

Adding a further case to the list ...

At present, on a Monday to Friday, there are three through trains from London Paddington to Paignton.   Currently off Paddington at 07:03, 10:33 and 17:33, walk up singles cost £114.00 on the first and last trains (any time) and £56.60 on the 10:33, super off peak, journey time 3 hours 18 minutes.

From 16th December 2019, on a Monday to Friday, there will be three through trains from London Paddington to Paignton.   The will leave Paddington at 07:04, 09:37 and 17:37, walk up singles cost £114.00 on the first and last trains (any time) and £78.10 on the 09:37, off peak, journey time 3 hours 12 minutes.

On a (sample) date, 19th December, an advance fare is available on the 09:37 at £31.50.

Paignton (and the rest of Torbay) are one of the major visitor destinations for short breaks and conferences in the UK and I will (readers may argue) suggest that there's going to be a lot of people travelling there who have a strong preference for the through train (with all their luggage?).  Yes, walk up super off peak will still be available from London at (example) 11:04 with a change at Exeter St Davids.   The timing (09:37 v 10:33 v 11:04) probably makes very little difference to the passenger group I have describes, and the journey time (between 3 hours 10 and 3 hours 20 minutes) is probably not a key element in them choosing the train.  They would be unlikely to want to travel on the 07:04 (too early from London) or 17:37 (too late into Paignton)

Late to the party here, but just noticed this. I travel weekly Monday morning CRV-HFD-(EVE)-PAD (which has been off-peak using the 0642 HFD-PAD train) and return Friday off-peak (PAD-NWP-CRV).

With the changes in GWR fare restrictions I now seem to face a >130% increase in cost of my weekly commute, from £101.30 to £237.60. I appreciate it may be considered an anomaly that the 0642 was off peak in the past, but considering how much slower it was than the journey from HFD to London via NWP it seemed reasonable that there was a difference in fare.

It looks like it may now be slightly cheaper to travel with Avanti West Coast via Crewe (and at least they seem to have some advance ticket availability), so it looks like this change will be self-defeating from GWR's perspective, at least in my case.

Welcome to the forum, Clunfarm

A (very) quick look at fares ... Singles from Craven Arms to Worcester Foregate Street and back, period (not day) return from there to Oxford and single Oxford to Paddington (peak) and back (off peak) add up - but subject to checking - at £153.50, valid for your trains.    Still more than the £103.00, but far less than the £237.60.

Split ticketing is allowed provided that you catch a train which actually stops at the stations where you change from one ticket to the next - for that reason I have NOT checked a Didcot split as that would slow you down.

I also noticed a very interesting anytime period return £111.40 fare Craven Arms to London via Warminster and Salisbury!

Avanti are getting some stick on Twitter over prices - "same trains - all that's changed is the price" was a comment I saw a few hours back - before you posted and it's rolled off my feed by now, but I think it came from an MP.    From Avanti


But what that makes no mention of is any change in quotas ... where Virgin sold (say) 20 at a certain good price on a particular train, we aren't told if Avanti are selling 5, 20 or 50 at that price.

Splitting at Oxford, there are Advances into Paddington available on your current trains during the peak between £20 and £25 each way

Thank you for that help with split ticketing - will play with that more at the weekend. That's a big improvement and £20 better than I was getting with Avanti. Realistically I would like to keep my return as PAD-NWP-CRV so I get home for dinner on a Friday.

It's indeed an attractive fare, but at 5hr 25m for a journey that can be done in 3hr 15m it means it is only for the time-rich (which sadly I am not, yet)!

Another option via the Cotswold Line is to split London-Hanborough, Hanborough-Ludlow, Ludlow-Craven Arms.

On walk-up tickets, this will be £69+£34.20+2*£4.90 = £113. But as Oxonhutch says, you may well be able to get Advances for the London-Hanborough portions, which would knock the cost down still further.

This is by no means an isolated instance of huge fare rises following the withdrawal of certain "concessions" in recent weeks.

I found out last night, for example, that an off peak single PAD-CPM is now not valid for travel before 0916 (which means the 0933 train). These tickets were valid on the 0830 departure until 3 years ago when it was adjusted to the 0900. Now the coffee outlets in PAD will be getting my business for even longer...

But back to the OP's issue, there are of course various search engines out there that will find you the best splits. The companies operating them charge a fee for teir services, but it is possible (if unethical) to get the necessary informaion out of them and then buy the tickets yourself.

I would characterise it as a move towards interpreting the requirement of the "off peak" timing to the letter of the franchise / contract, and there's sufficient pattern to it so see this change as being policy.  Either it will displace people off shoulder peak trains (and disgruntle them at the same time), or it will generate more income for the TOC implementing the changes.    An interesting comparison is to the shift fro 09:00 to 09:30 for start of bus pass (ENCTS) travel ... little extra income generated, just irate pensioners, empty buses from 09:00 to 09:30 and ovecrowded ones from 09:30 onwards.

When the price of something rockets, though, people grumble and then look for alternative products ... could be a later train, could be split tickets, could be driving to another station, bus or car the whole way ... as you suggest ...


The term "off peak" is starting to take on a disrepute in my eyes ... am I alone?  The new 05:33 from Melksham (when it runs - 2 cancels already this year!) is virtually empty, and yet off peak tickets not accepted (there may be some exceptions) ... if that train isn't "off the peak", I don't know what is.   We could seriously market off peak fares for arrivals into London before 07:00 ... back to the old "workman's train" of Victorian / Edwardian ties.

Totally off-topic (sorry).
ENCTS passes can be used on Kernow busses 24x7.  Funding provided by withdrawing the use of ENCTS from Truro Park & Ride, and that funding transferred to ensure service busses are now free for those passes at all times.