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Title: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on October 27, 2019, 20:18:17 From The Metro (https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/23/elderly-couple-refuse-move-pregnant-womans-reserved-seats-10969230)
Quote An elderly couple refused to budge from seats a pregnant woman and her family had reserved, it is claimed. Amanda Mancino-Williams posted a photo online after she said she asked them to move from the table seats she had booked. The 37-year-old said she had reserved the four seats on the Cheltenham to Nottingham route. She claims the couple told her seat reservations ‘didn’t matter’. Amanda said the couple were also aware she was six and a half months pregnant. Her three children had to squeeze into two seats opposite the couple on the CrossCountry train. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: Chris from Nailsea on October 28, 2019, 00:24:39 Unfortunately, the selfish couple apparently chose to fuzz their faces:
(https://i1.wp.com/metro.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/10/PRI_91466415.jpg?quality=90&strip=all&zoom=1&resize=540%2C376&ssl=1) Where was the train manager? ::) Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: Western Pathfinder on October 28, 2019, 00:48:14 What I read from the woman concerned on Twitter ,is that the Train Manager rather than have an discussion with the people who had occupied her seats,moved mother and all three children to first class by way of a upgrade.
Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on October 28, 2019, 03:06:31 What I read from the woman concerned on Twitter ,is that the Train Manager rather than have an discussion with the people who had occupied her seats,moved mother and all three children to first class by way of a upgrade. Several sources suggest that happened - and that's a good pragmatic move for the train manager to Mae in such circumstances - I have read of similar being done before on an airline flight when someone said "I should not have to sit next to this person" and the reply was along the lines of "this person should not have to sit next to you" and upgraded the person being complained about. Problem with this solution - it does not censure the people who have occupied the seats when they should not have. We don't know how it was done, but one wonders / perhaps hopes it was done in a suitable way to embarrass them into realising that they done bad. But then perhaps they had no sense of right and wrong - sad lesson that there are some nasty old people around, just as there are some nasty people in just about any demographic; it just tends to be in some demographics they're not talked about and in other demographics they come to be used to categorise the whole demographic. Straying off topic there. Almost every story has 2 sides. Passengers have 10 minutes to claim their reserved seats from departure of the train from the start point of the reservation. If the mum and 3 kids were late taking their seats, it's possible that the couple already occupying two of them were actually correct if they said they had lapsed / did not apply. I doubt that was the case, but stranger things have happened. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: Robin Summerhill on October 28, 2019, 16:23:44 Quote from: grahame Almost every story has 2 sides. Most stories have three sides. What each warring party in the argument has to say, and what really happened... ;) Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: MVR S&T on October 28, 2019, 21:48:49 One extra coach on every voyager(with ole pantograph) could have been paid for by central government with the B**** advertising budget...
Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on October 29, 2019, 07:55:52 Now made the BBC - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50187528 - and a discussion of how many problems the current system has, moving on from the particular case to take a more general look.
Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: ChrisB on October 29, 2019, 10:09:19 From the BBC website (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-50187528)
Quote When pregnant Amanda Mancino-Williams boarded a train with her three children last week, she felt safe in the knowledge they had four seats booked. It was the second leg of a six-hour journey, the first part of which had been spent standing. "I thought 'thank God,'" she says. "I thought we would be able to sit." But when Amanda and her family - with luggage for a week's holiday - clambered through the packed carriage, they soon saw their reserved seats were partly occupied by an older couple. "There was another gentleman sitting at the table who realised it was our seats and got up very quickly, but I could see the woman sort of whisper to her husband when she realised we were on our way." 'We can sit anywhere' "I said 'I think you're sitting in our seats,'" Amanda recalls. "She looked at me and said 'that's not how it works, we can sit anywhere we want.' "I just thought 'oh, no, don't do this to me now.'" Her children sat down, but she had to stand. Furious, she snapped a few photographs and posted them on Twitter. "Had [the woman] been polite, I would have gone and found the guard to help find them seats," Amanda says. "But I can't be split up from my kids." After a quick conversation with an apologetic, but seemingly powerless, CrossCountry train conductor, Amanda and her children were upgraded to first class. A victory of sorts, perhaps. Yet her predicament reveals the hollow promise of advance train reservations: they are enshrined in law, and the rail industry says they are the only way to guarantee a seat. But in practice train companies say that, when faced with peaceful protest from those unwilling to move, they often cannot enforce them. Even the British Transport Police says it would only deploy officers to a reservation row "appropriately and proportionally" after a call from train staff. It has left Amanda feeling as though the system risks "rewarding being a jerk". So what's the point of reservations? Advance seat reservations on trains have become more common in recent years as more passengers book online, according to railways journalist Andrew White. "When you buy online, you are encouraged to have a reservation," he says. "The operators want you to buy in advance because they then know who is on their train. (https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/624/cpsprodpb/FE9C/production/_109408156_byelaws.jpg) That seems clear enough. But in practice, White says, conductors have an "unenviable job of trying to move somebody out of a seat if someone complains". "What can one person do against another person who is intransient?" he asks, adding: "The options are limited." 'Common decency' Industry body the Rail Delivery Group says advance seat reservations are the only way passengers can be sure they will get a seat. "It's up to the train operator how they choose to enforce this," a spokesman explains. "They can demand the reserved seats are vacated or they can relocate those who reserved the seat to other seats on the train." Image copyright Getty Images Image caption Train seat reservations are increasingly common as more people book trains online The BBC approached all train operating companies in the mainland UK that allow seat reservations. Those that responded said their priority was to de-escalate any arguments. Some like ScotRail and CrossCountry said staff always try to find an "amicable solution" that avoids confrontation. Others like Great Western Railway said they expect customers "to show due consideration to their fellow passengers". First TransPennine Express went further and said staff hope "common decency prevails". For Amanda, her tweets were not intended as an attack against the obstinate couple - "I'm sure they're lovely, they just made the wrong decision." Instead, she says she wants to highlight "bad behaviour". "I would always try to do what is fair," she adds. "You have nothing to lose by speaking out if you're in the right and call people out on their behaviour. "Hopefully they will think about it next time." Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on October 29, 2019, 10:15:40 Thanks, ChrisB - see also http://www.passenger.chat/22368 where a thread about overcrowding on Cross Country has also picked up this story. Perhaps time to do a bit of merging, splitting and retitling?
Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: JayMac on October 29, 2019, 10:23:29 This is not an issue unique to CrossCountry though so I don't think it should go into a thread about them.
Stubborn folk refusing to move from reserved seats could be on any train. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on October 29, 2019, 10:32:40 This is not an issue unique to CrossCountry though so I don't think it should go into a thread about them. Stubborn folk refusing to move from reserved seats could be on any train. Probably a move & merge job! Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on October 29, 2019, 10:43:31 Thanks, ChrisB - see also http://www.passenger.chat/22368 where a thread about overcrowding on Cross Country has also picked up this story. Perhaps time to do a bit of merging, splitting and retitling? Now merged under your heading, and all moved to "Fare's Fair". Although the biggest problem (from an unscientific personal view) is with Cross Country, and this story is Cross Country, I do agree that there is a commonality across all trains that offer seat reservations, thus the new home here for the thread. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: johnneyw on October 29, 2019, 11:10:32 Network Rail's website says "Seat reservations are normally free of charge if made at the same time you buy your ticket" but are there any exceptions on any of the ticket issuing websites? If there are, then should these cases be treated differently?
Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on October 29, 2019, 11:42:57 The news article highlights the desire of the train operators - and I'm sure of the vast majority of passengers - to have an amicable system that works for all, and under which situations that need de-escalating are minimised. Sadly (my view) the system that Cross Country use together with the metrics of their operation provide a system which really doesn't work for all and indeed seems almost set up to make for awkward situations; there's a limit to how understanding people will be, even assuming they know about reservations enough to understand in the first place.
Scenario - Bristol to Birmingham, Friday evening. Connection at Trowbridge missed by a few seconds and following train was late - result, a need to hare across Temple Meads as a Cross Country pulled in, without time to try for any form of last minute reservation. Virtually every seat in my carriage (on a 4 car voyager) reserved ... large numbers of people getting on and few looking for specific seats; train announcements asking us to move down so everyone could get on and we could get going. OK - my personal gamble failed and I was asked to vacate my seat (I did) ... but people being asked to move were few and far between. I don't think many were in the right seats ... I don't know how many people didn't even ask for the seats they had booked, but I suspect that there was no-one there to take up the majority of the reservations. For sure, people getting up and sitting down at Bristol Parkway and at Cheltenham Spa were not leaving or taking up seats marked as being to or from those stations. So - system with significant flaws. How to improve it? * More capacity on trains so that it's the exception and not the rule that people who want to sit down are left standing. * Removal of encourgements when booking to reserve a seat on an open ticket when you don't really know what train you'll be catching. * Perhaps "Standby" fares - a pound cheaper but no seat resevations and indeed if you're on one of these tickeks you need to understand you will only have a seat is there are seats to spare. And, yes, the seat I had "squatted" at Temple Meads was taken by a fit-looking young lady where, these days, I'm really not of sufficient fitness to stand for long periods. I have chosen to have a senior railcard rather than a disabled one ... Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: AMLAG on October 29, 2019, 13:26:25 "The operators want you to buy in advance because they then know who is on their train." There is far more to this quoted extract above, to encouraging advance purchase of tickets; not least because the TOC is getting income/FARES REVENUE in advance and knowing that a significant and financially worthwhile number of passengers cancel or alter their 'Advance' paid travel plans and do not bother to go through the processes to get a refund etc. This is the main reason for so many 'reserved' seats not being occupied by the passenger for whom they were reserved, but instead by a passenger who has no seat reservation. In days gone by ( pre Privatization) the information of large numbers of pre booked/ reserved seats would assist the Railway's Regional Operating Manager's ' Reliefs and Strengthenings' staff to make decisions with regard to provision of extra coaches on scheduled trains or the running of 'Relief' trains, as likely traffic at peak times demanded. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: broadgage on October 29, 2019, 13:44:45 I have experienced a similar situation at least twice on FGW services, as they were still known at the time.
On one occasion the train manager felt unable to intervene, so being reluctant to give the usurper a good thump I had to stand to Taunton. Excellent for the full first class fare of about £150. On another journey no on board staff were seen, another £150 to stand. The situation has got worse with the introduction of the new shorter trains, and as a result I now travel much less. On one recent trip from Taunton, the train on which I had booked was half length and clearly grossly overcrowded, knowing that reservations are voided and that first is de-facto declassified on half length trains I let the train go and awaited the next one. On this following service I was "fined" a substantial sum for not having a valid ticket, mine being valid only on the booked train. Overcrowding has been regularly discussed on these forums, and advocates of the rail industry, or employees therein, have stated that "passengers have a choice, to not board a train that is overcrowded" I would be interested to hear the views, as to whether passengers who make such a choice should be "fined" or not. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: Timmer on October 29, 2019, 14:51:09 On one recent trip from Taunton, the train on which I had booked was half length and clearly grossly overcrowded, knowing that reservations are voided and that first is de-facto declassified on half length trains I let the train go and awaited the next one. Happened to me, had Advance tickets booked in 1st. 5 car vice 10 showed up, absolutely rammed. One portion of 1st in the composite coach was declassified leaving just the portion next to the kitchen for everyone to squeeze in with four more stations before London still to come. Refused to travel on this train so waited for the next one half an hour later, a nine car set with 1st virtually empty. Explained to the TM the situation with the previous train and he was more than happy for us to travel on his train. The 1st class host was amazing too so we had a lovely journey up to London. How it should be.On this following service I was "fined" a substantial sum for not having a valid ticket, mine being valid only on the booked train. Overcrowding has been regularly discussed on these forums, and advocates of the rail industry, or employees therein, have stated that "passengers have a choice, to not board a train that is overcrowded" I would be interested to hear the views, as to whether passengers who make such a choice should be "fined" or not. Had we been "fined" I'd have paid up and taken it up with GWR to claim the money back. If they or their supplier (Hitachi) fail to provide the paid for service, why should I have to suffer a second rate service arriving in London stressed out? Not unreasonable is it? Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: broadgage on October 29, 2019, 15:03:58 One extra coach on every voyager(with ole pantograph) could have been paid for by central government with the B**** advertising budget... Yes, or even a battery vehicle. Battery charged by the existing engines when spare power is available. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: TaplowGreen on October 29, 2019, 18:23:42 Upgrading the customers who had reserved seats is a good result for them but sends out all the wrong messages to those who have selfishly chosen to occupy seats reserved by others and refused to move - they'll feel they can remain there without any action being taken against them other than possibly the disapproval of others.
Surely it's part of the TM's job to enforce this, not just give up and walk away? I'm sure it used to say something on the back of ticket reservations about there being a penalty for occupying a someone else's reserved seats and/or removing the label? Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on October 31, 2019, 14:23:21 Giving in to those who abuse the system with no more than the ire of their fellow passengers, which they may be too thick-skinned (or thick) to notice, is not a solution beyond very quickly defusing a situation. Long term it brings the system as it stands into disrepute so that even more people will ignore it. Having said which, the reservation system isn't exactly a glowing example of how things should be done, is it?
Another TOC giving up on reservations - from Examiner Live (https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/news/west-yorkshire-news/rail-company-bans-seat-reservations-17176767) Quote Train passengers travelling between Huddersfield and Manchester can no longer pre-book a seat - due to the amount of drunken ale trail rows over reservations on a weekend. Transpennine Express (TPE) has banned passengers booking a seat on journeys at the weekend, after numerous reports of antisocial behaviour and rowdy disorder on the trains. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: Thatcham Crossing on October 31, 2019, 15:40:23 Many years ago I took an overnight train in Germany, with seats reserved, between Gutersloh and Berlin.
Myself and my (UK Military) mates found our seats occupied, and politely asked (in basic German) for the middle-aged female occupants to move (having showed them our reservation paperwork). They refused to do so, so off I went off to find the conductor. He told them, in no uncertain terms, that they needed to move. But they still didn't. Probably 10-15 minutes later we pull into the next station. Polizei board and remove the offending Frau's. We tried not to smile at them too much as they left. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: plymothian on November 01, 2019, 20:58:10 And now another one.
Opinions on this one? https://twitter.com/RoadsignReport1/status/1190280703419834369 Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: sikejsudjek3 on November 02, 2019, 04:56:49 And now another one. Opinions on this one? https://twitter.com/RoadsignReport1/status/1190280703419834369 If he didn't have a reservation then he should calm down. No right to those seats. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: TaplowGreen on November 02, 2019, 07:23:21 And now another one. Opinions on this one? https://twitter.com/RoadsignReport1/status/1190280703419834369 If he didn't have a reservation then he should calm down. No right to those seats. Yeah it's not the same - no right to expect courtesy these days unfortunately! Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: Henry on November 02, 2019, 08:51:57 Don't same countries have a policy that unless you book a seat in advance you do not travel ? Perhaps that is now the way forward, particularly on 'Inter-City' routes. Although I suppose the guard would then have to 'earn his money' regulating this policy. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: Surrey 455 on November 02, 2019, 09:59:59 And now another one. Opinions on this one? https://twitter.com/RoadsignReport1/status/1190280703419834369 Twitter says "Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!" Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: grahame on November 02, 2019, 10:09:47 And now another one. Opinions on this one? https://twitter.com/RoadsignReport1/status/1190280703419834369 Twitter says "Sorry, that page doesn’t exist!" Ah - the danger of linking to a page under someone else's control. I took a look earlier (when it was visible) and I suspect that the original poster reconsidered his message. As a general comment - Highly frustrating to have your train (with reserved seats for yourself and offspring) cancelled - but that does not give you the right to demand other get up from their seats for you on the ovecrowded replacement train that you've taken to make your journey in lieu. You may have a claim to refund / compensation from the TOC who's train was cancelled, but having found a single seat in the replacement train for your daughter, you cannot normally request / demand / expect the person already seated in the adjacent seat for a long journey to give it up for you. Clearly there may be exceptions - if you are disabled / pregnant / need a priority seat for medical reasons, or if the person seated next to your daughter is a rail associated person travelling on a duty pass which includes a condition of issue that seats must be given up if required. Title: Re: 'We're not moving' - when reserving a train seat goes wrong Post by: plymothian on November 02, 2019, 16:45:56 I was rather under the influence when I saw that twitter post (and to be honest still am folllowing all the early rugby kick offs this weekend).
The "problem" was that that the gentlemen pictured refused to move so the daughter could sit next to the mother after their train got cancelled. IMO the twitter rant is totally unjustified for the fact that the poster's train was cancelled and although the daughter was unable to sit immediately adjacent to the mother, she was still in eyesight. However, one of the gentlemen shamed could have swapped seats in that instance. But what got my back up was more how easy it is to social media shame - a follow up post critised one of the guys for falling asleep - and the general attitude to seating on trains. And @Henry regarding the 'you can only travel if you have a reservation' arguement is always couneracted by asking the person complaining "if you couldn't have got a reservation on this train and the next available is in 5 days time, what would you have done" for example? This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |