Great Western Coffee Shop

All across the Great Western territory => The Wider Picture Overseas => Topic started by: SandTEngineer on October 31, 2019, 09:47:35 am



Title: Green Roads
Post by: SandTEngineer on October 31, 2019, 09:47:35 am
I make absolutely no comment........ ::)

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/stories-50223895/could-electric-roads-spark-a-green-transport-revolution


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: Trowres on October 31, 2019, 10:17:25 am
Curious...

When I hover the mouse over the cab of the HGV in the photograph, the (alternative text) caption displayed is:
Quote
Could electric roads spark a green transport revolution?

However, hover over the HGV trailer and the caption becomes:
Quote
The mobile laundry for homeless people

 :D ??? ::)


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: eightf48544 on October 31, 2019, 10:25:44 am
Interesting. i seem to remember a bus like vehicle that had two poles at the back that collected electricty to propel the vehicle. Last seen in Bradford in the early 70s?


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: stuving on October 31, 2019, 11:06:19 am
...and and I seem to remember it on the forum in 2014 (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14372.0) - Siemens both times, and their system goes back to 2011.

But this German programme, Elisa, is newer. It seems to be government-led and has three demonstration sites. This time the trucks are Scania, not Volvo, but pretty much the same idea. Reported last month as running late. (https://www.electrive.com/2019/09/30/delays-in-german-electric-highway-project-elisa/)


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 31, 2019, 11:13:00 am
Oose gonna pay for it?

A propos of nothing, the UK intervention in Iraq between 2003 and 2009 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War) cost £8.4bn.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: broadgage on October 31, 2019, 12:32:42 pm
This undoubtedly works to an extent as has been demonstrated.

I am very doubtful as to the practicalities of applying it more generally.
What about fools touching the over head ?
Or vandals throwing conductive articles at it.
What about bridges over the road. At present bridges provide just sufficient clearance for existing designs of HGV. I cant see how the overhead can be fitted in as well under existing bridges.

And yes, passenger vehicles were powered thus, trolley buses back in the old days.

BTW a similar system was used about 100 years ago for goods vehicles, especially up hills. It worked well enough but was rendered obsolete by cheap oil, and cheap reliable high powered road vehicles to use it.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: stuving on October 31, 2019, 12:41:06 pm
Oose gonna pay for it?

A propos of nothing, the UK intervention in Iraq between 2003 and 2009 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Financial_cost_of_the_Iraq_War) cost £8.4bn.

What, Elisa? the German government, of course:
Quote
The Ministry of the Environment is spending a total of almost 50 million euros on the three test sections, including almost 15 million euros for the section on the A5. In December, the Ministry commissioned Scania to supply hybrid trucks with pantographs.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: broadgage on October 31, 2019, 02:57:48 pm
As was done well over a hundred years ago !
https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/07/electric-road-trains-in-germany-1901-1950.html (https://www.lowtechmagazine.com/2009/07/electric-road-trains-in-germany-1901-1950.html)

Probably easier then than it would be now. Certainly a more robust attitude to safety "we are sorry to hear that your child was electrocuted as a result of interfering with our equipment. we accept no liability for such events. please find enclosed our bill for 48 shillings, this represents our costs in dealing with the damage. please pay by return"


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: infoman on October 31, 2019, 04:07:32 pm
Might as well put the conductor rail in the road way.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: grahame on October 31, 2019, 05:18:46 pm
Might as well put the conductor rail in the road way.

Not a bad idea.    And would the whole thing have far less energy needs / friction if the rubber wheels were replaced with flanged metal ones running on that conductor rail?  ;D


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: broadgage on October 31, 2019, 07:03:17 pm
Might as well put the conductor rail in the road way.

Unlikely in my view. Fraught with hazards. Overhead is bad enough but is at least out of easy reach. And remember that a rubber tyred vehicle needs TWO conductor rails or overhead wires, railways are bad enough with just one.

The health and safety industry are opposed to any significant expansion of conductor rails on railways, so anything similar on roads would seem likely to be prohibited.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: stuving on October 31, 2019, 07:25:25 pm
Might as well put the conductor rail in the road way.

Unlikely in my view. Fraught with hazards. Overhead is bad enough but is at least out of easy reach. And remember that a rubber tyred vehicle needs TWO conductor rails or overhead wires, railways are bad enough with just one.

The health and safety industry are opposed to any significant expansion of conductor rails on railways, so anything similar on roads would seem likely to be prohibited.

Unless you're a Swede, it seems. As was reported here last year (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=14372.msg235815#msg235815), when a short stretch of "slot-lorry" public road was opened. It was meant to be a one-year trial leading to a longer road being done, but I can't see anything about it from this year.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: Trowres on August 01, 2020, 11:24:20 pm
More on the subject of overhead electrification for powering HGVs in this report:

Decarbonising  the  UK’s  Long-Haul  Road Freight at Minimum Economic Cost
http://www.csrf.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SRF-WP-UKEMS-v2.pdf (http://www.csrf.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SRF-WP-UKEMS-v2.pdf)

Quote
Overhead catenaries and compatible HGV’s are the most energy-efficient and cost-effective solution to fully decarbonise the UK’s road freight network. Their deployment is essential if the UK is to achieve its  Carbon  budgets through  to  net-zero GHG  emissions  by  2050.  The  technology  is  proven  and  the transition  from  the  current  diesel-centric  approach  to  catenary-powered  electric  vehicles  can  be handled  with  hybrid  vehicles

Certain engineers on this forum should look away now...

Phase 1
3261 lane-km
Construction time: 2 years
Infrastructure cost: £5.6bn
HGV-km coverage: 31%

Quote
The German government has spent over £62 million (€70 million) to date on its catenary programme across three main demonstration sites (BMU, 2018). These include the A5 near Frankfurt, the BAB1 near  Lubeck  and  the  B462  near  Baden-Württemberg.  In  each  of  the  projects,  the  planning  phase consisted  of  one  year,  and  the  construction  took  9 months.  The  electrified  sections  range  between 6 km  and  10  km,  with  an  average  per  lane-km  construction  cost  of  approximately  £1.29  million (€1.46 million).





Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: CyclingSid on August 02, 2020, 08:05:42 am
Quote
vehicle that had two poles at the back that collected electricty to propel the vehicle
, so possibly a trolley lorry?

Sounds like one of the phrases you had to say very fast as a kid and not get your lollies and lorries mixed up.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: stuving on August 02, 2020, 01:22:03 pm
More on the subject of overhead electrification for powering HGVs in this report:

Decarbonising  the  UK’s  Long-Haul  Road Freight at Minimum Economic Cost
http://www.csrf.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SRF-WP-UKEMS-v2.pdf (http://www.csrf.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/07/SRF-WP-UKEMS-v2.pdf)

I don't think that is the subject - and the report makes a mistake in giving the "UK Electric Motorway System" too much prominence. The real subject is how to make battery-powered lorries practical, both in the long term zero-carbon future and the shorter-term transition to get there. Providing mains electricity on the long trunk road parts of the journey is their long-term answer, with a diesel range extender (making it doubly hybrid) needed if batteries are not capable enough soon enough. (Note that batteries are not expected ever to be practical on their own, and the German trail systems don't bother with them.)

That all makes some kind of sense, at a superficial level at least. And this is a pretty superficial report. The supporting details may be provided by the references; I haven't looked so I don't know. Certainly this "Centre For Sustainable Road Freight (http://www.csrf.ac.uk/)* is not in a position to do much detailed technology stuff, being mainly a bunch of logisticians. In particular, they have a glaring lack of electrical engineers - bearing in mind that the future is electric - which presumably explains the lack of even a voltage for the supply.  And as to the issues of sizing the power supply, its feeds, its protection, and how to earth a lorry for safety - look elsewhere.

One striking feature is how scathing they are about hydrogen fuel. That may just reflect how their chosen solution competes with it, but it also provides a counter-argument to most of what your read, which comes from pro-hydrogen sources.

*mission statement: "The Centre For Sustainable Road Freight brings together multi-disciplinary teams of researchers and industry leaders to improve road freight efficiency and reduce its environmental impact. Our purpose is to research engineering and organizational solutions to make road freight economically, socially and environmentally sustainable." The Centre is a collaboration between Cambridge and Heriot-Watt Universities and organizations in the freight and logistics sectors, with a major 5-year grant from EPSRC.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: rogerw on August 02, 2020, 09:03:09 pm
Have they explained how lorries will overtake other vehicles?  Or is that a question they hoped would not be asked


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: ellendune on August 02, 2020, 09:36:51 pm
I was wondering how much it would cost to raise all those bridges for the OLE.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: stuving on August 02, 2020, 10:07:58 pm
Have they explained how lorries will overtake other vehicles?  Or is that a question they hoped would not be asked

Yes. Drop the pantograph(s), drive round, or across the junction, or into and out of where you take our break, then reconnect. What's the problem?


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: Trowres on August 02, 2020, 11:01:05 pm
And as to the issues of sizing the power supply, its feeds, its protection, and how to earth a lorry for safety - look elsewhere.

How do trolleybuses meet electrical safety requirements?


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: rogerw on August 03, 2020, 08:25:45 am
Have they explained how lorries will overtake other vehicles?  Or is that a question they hoped would not be asked

Yes. Drop the pantograph(s), drive round, or across the junction, or into and out of where you take our break, then reconnect. What's the problem?

What is the return path for the current with a single contact wire and a pantograph? Works fine when running on rails but rubber tyres and tarmac roads have very high electrical resistance. Trolley buses worked ok with twin wires and trolleys but required controlled switches at all junctions. Worked OK in an urban environment with its lowers speeds. Can't see trolleys working too well at the higher speeds on motorways. Road vehicles do not stay on a rigid line, unlike those on rails, and although the picture on the BBC looks impressive I can forsee multiple cases of dewiring and wires down


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: Oxonhutch on August 03, 2020, 08:55:29 am
Road vehicles do not stay on a rigid line, unlike those on rails, and although the picture on the BBC looks impressive I can forsee multiple cases of dewiring and wires down

I would foresee something more like existing mine haul trucks as described here (https://im-mining.com/2020/02/13/caterpillar-formally-introduces-trolley-assist-cat-electric-drive-mining-trucks/).

(https://im-mining.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Cat-795-AC-mining-truck-on-trolley-at-Boliden-Aitik-mine-390x260.jpg)

I have seen these things working and they are very impressive. They accelerate tremendously once they contact the overhead wires.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: Bmblbzzz on August 03, 2020, 09:14:35 am
All the photos I've seen show double overhead wires, on long straight roads such as motorways. So those earthing and overtaking questions are not a big issue.
photos (https://www.google.com/search?q=overhead+electric+highway&safe=off&client=opera&hs=Nft&sxsrf=ALeKk00uLsEyGLjMc5nE1nrt1jDrueNSVQ:1596442272104&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjX1KH0yv7qAhUGUBUIHaKHDPUQ_AUoAXoECAwQAw&biw=1366&bih=658)


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: stuving on August 03, 2020, 10:45:49 am
Have they explained how lorries will overtake other vehicles?  Or is that a question they hoped would not be asked

Yes. Drop the pantograph(s), drive round, or across the junction, or into and out of where you take our break, then reconnect. What's the problem?

What is the return path for the current with a single contact wire and a pantograph? Works fine when running on rails but rubber tyres and tarmac roads have very high electrical resistance. Trolley buses worked ok with twin wires and trolleys but required controlled switches at all junctions. Worked OK in an urban environment with its lowers speeds. Can't see trolleys working too well at the higher speeds on motorways. Road vehicles do not stay on a rigid line, unlike those on rails, and although the picture on the BBC looks impressive I can forsee multiple cases of dewiring and wires down

I'm sure this would use two supply wires, like trolleybuses - but different. The safety point is just that there is a question, and what's involved is likely to involve things that are not obvious. And it's not unknown for something that was safe enough fifty years ago to now need extra precautions, or be declared too risky by the liability lawyers.

Probably more relevant are the latter-day trolleybuses, or trams on rubber tyres. I don't think their commercial failure and (in France, at least) replacement by proper trams had anything to do with safety or earthing, but I'm not sure I'd know if it did. It would be surprising if they required a safety earth to a conducting road, but possibly some form of earth leakage protection is now needed. Fault current protection of low-voltage DC overhead supplies is in any case difficult, calling for complicated switchgear and often for limits on the current demanded. Trains, and trams to a lesser extent, can be eaisly prevented from all starting up at once. Lorries on a road would naturally all want to do that.

And then there's the commercial/legal stuff about who's liable if it breaks. A short section without power isn't a problem - the lorries are all self-powered, after all. But for a longer section they might be unable to reach their destination, which would raise a lot of questions. And then there's national resilience ...


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: stuving on June 30, 2022, 08:23:43 pm
Here's someone else having a tilt at this turbine - Tevva. They have just launched a battery truck with a hydrogen fuel cell range extender (https://www.tevva.com/uk-gets-first-hydrogen-electric-truck-with-landmark-tevva-launch/) (it was unveiled last September).
Quote
The Tilbury-headquartered scale-up, which has so far raised $140m in funding, will unveil its hydrogen electric vehicle alongside its latest full-battery electric HGV at the Road Transport Expo in Warwickshire.

Hydrogen has been used safely in buses and other vehicles in more than twenty countries for many years and has a higher energy density than lithium-ion batteries or even diesel. Because of these properties, it is particularly attractive for use in larger, commercial vehicles.

By adding a hydrogen fuel cell system to its battery-electric HGV design, Tevva is delivering zero-emission solutions that will work for the overwhelming majority of fleet operators across a range of industries and sectors. The fuel cell system tops up the battery, extending the vehicle’s range and allowing the truck to carry heavier loads over longer distances.

One advantage of using the fuel cell as a range extender, rather than the primary source of power, is that it allows Tevva to provide smaller, cheaper and lighter fuel cells and operate these at the highest possible efficiency.

Tevva’s 7.5-tonne hydrogen electric truck comfortably meets (and exceeds) demanding duty cycles for nearly all urban and extra-urban use cases. Tevva’s innovation means that its customers can drive for longer (with a range of up to 310 miles or 500 kilometres) and will have reassurance because of the technology’s reliability and safety.

Crucially, hydrogen refuelling typically takes a similar time to diesel truck refuelling (5-20 minutes) and the dual-use of both battery electric and hydrogen energy sources futureproofs Tevva and its customers as the transition away from fossil fuels and the decarbonisation of the transport industry continues.


Title: Re: Green Roads
Post by: broadgage on July 01, 2022, 01:01:12 pm
I remain doubtful as to the merits of hydrogen fuel cells.
The fuel cells are expensive, bulky, and the hydrogen fuel is bulky, dangerous, and problematic to handle.

I am in favour of trolley buses and trolley trucks on motorways and in some urban areas. A lithium battery would be required to permit of running for say 25 miles on roads not electrified.
I cant see anything involving ground level conductor rails being approved on public roads, overhead should be enough of a challenge.

If any such system is to be adopted, we need a national standard, and preferably international, for interoperability. BEFORE each town, city, or district adopts its own bespoke system.

The climate emergency is now getting a bit last year, but the recent increase in diesel prices should concentrate minds somewhat. The war in Ukraine also shows the perils of being reliant on potential enemies for fuel.



This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net