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Journey by Journey => Transport for London => Topic started by: grahame on November 08, 2019, 12:32:11 pm



Title: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on November 08, 2019, 12:32:11 pm
I'm sure I'll be merging this topic later on with previous "Crossrail delay" threads ... but noting that I'm the first to post here ... perhaps a delay is not news any more.  A major project on time WOULD be.

Quote
The opening of London's Crossrail project will be delayed until 2021 as Europe's biggest infrastructure scheme is set to go another £650m over budget.

The route, to be known as the Elizabeth Line, was originally due to open in December 2018.

Crossrail Ltd chief executive Mark Wild said services would be delayed to allow time for more testing.

Wonder if they will make 2021  :o  :-\  :-[

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50345344


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 08, 2019, 05:51:44 pm
I'm sure I'll be merging this topic later on with previous "Crossrail delay" threads ... but noting that I'm the first to post here ... perhaps a delay is not news any more.  A major project on time WOULD be.

Quote
The opening of London's Crossrail project will be delayed until 2021 as Europe's biggest infrastructure scheme is set to go another £650m over budget.

The route, to be known as the Elizabeth Line, was originally due to open in December 2018.

Crossrail Ltd chief executive Mark Wild said services would be delayed to allow time for more testing.

Wonder if they will make 2021  :o  :-\  :-[

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50345344

Pennies compared to HS2, but hey it's a rail scheme so we have come to expect massive delays and overspends.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on January 01, 2020, 07:45:54 am
Someone has c*cked up a press release ... at 00:06 this morning, on the news feeds an old article from 31st August 2018.   Oops!

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/elizabeth-line-services-through-central-london-to-start-in-2019

Welcome to 2020, a whole decade prepared for new bloopers!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: eightonedee on January 01, 2020, 08:54:37 am
Credit where credit is due Grahame.

They did remember to update the year on the copyright date at the foot of the page
!



Happy New Year all!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: CyclingSid on January 01, 2020, 12:16:58 pm
Crossrail have been quoted in the media today as saying it will finish on time and on budget. It isn't April 1st is it? (Sorry should be the season of goodwill)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on March 20, 2020, 12:27:13 pm
So much has changed since then!

'Inevitable' impact on Crossrail project from coronavirus, say London mayor (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/18320945.inevitable-impact-crossrail-project-coronavirus-say-london-mayor/)

How many of the infrastructure projects announced in the Budget will go ahead - and how will they be funded?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on March 24, 2020, 03:19:01 pm
So much has changed since then!

'Inevitable' impact on Crossrail project from coronavirus, say London mayor (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/18320945.inevitable-impact-crossrail-project-coronavirus-say-london-mayor/)

How many of the infrastructure projects announced in the Budget will go ahead - and how will they be funded?

and further ... from myLondon (https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/london-coronavirus-crossrail-works-suspended-17971371)

Quote
The construction of Crossrail has been temporarily suspended in response to the government announcing a lockdown.

The project, which began in 2009, is a 73-mile new railway line stretching from Shenfield in Essex to Reading, Berkshire.

The decision to suspend the building of the line is due to the risk workers face catching and/or passing on the deadly illness, Covid-19.

On Monday evening (March 23), Prime Minister Boris Johnson made the announcement that citizens' movements will be severely restricted over the next three weeks due to the rapid spread of coronavirus.

Despite Johnson not specifically mentioning construction workers, a debate has been raging since the lockdown announcement on whether construction workers should be staying at home.

Sadiq Khan, the London Mayor has prioritised making the London Underground available for key workers at hospitals and in social services.

Mike Brown, London's Transport Commissioner, said: "The Government and the Mayor have given clear instructions to stay safe and to stop travelling in all cases other than critical workers making absolutely essential journeys.

"In line with this, TfL and Crossrail will be bringing all project sites to a temporary Safe Stop unless they need to continue for operational safety reasons.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: SandTEngineer on April 07, 2020, 09:29:45 am
ETCS Testing successfully completed.  From Railway Gazette:  https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/etcs-tested-successfully-on-heathrow-express-class-387s/56178.article

However, there are apparently still some issues to resolve with the TPWS Interface......

Quote
ETCS tested successfully on Heathrow Express Class 387s

An initial series of test runs using Class 387 EMUs equipped with ETCS on the Great Western Main Line has been completed, leasing company Porterbrook announced on April 3.

Using sections of the GWML east of Reading and the branch from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow Airport, the tests were undertaken by Porterbrook and partners Bombardier, the Department for Transport, DB Cargo UK and Heathrow Airport Ltd. More than 10 test runs over the weekend of March 21-22 were undertaken to prove the functionality of the onboard hardware and software as well as related infrastructure assets.

A dedicated fleet of 12 four-car Class 387 EMUs is to be redeployed by operator Great Western Railway from Thames Valley commuter services to the airport shuttle. The trains are currently being refurbished by manufacturer Bombardier at its Ilford depot, where they are receiving bespoke interiors tailored to the needs of airport passengers.

Once ETCS Level 2 has been commissioned on the branch between Hayes & Harlington and the airport, expected later this year, the Class 387s will replace the Class 332 trainsets which have been used since the inception of Heathrow Express in 1998.

The Heathrow Express service is owned and managed by Heathrow Airport Ltd and is not part of the national franchising system. However, the airport company has outsourced train operations to GWR under a management contract running from 2018 to 2028. The Class 387 fleet will be maintained by GWR at its Reading depot.

‘Notwithstanding these challenging times, we need to continue focusing on delivering key projects so that the railway is ready to support UK plc when the current situation stabilises’, said Mary Grant, Chief Executive of Porterbrook. ‘Introduction of an ETCS-fitted fleet on services to Heathrow is just such a project and will enable a service uplift to meet expected passenger numbers when the airport returns to its role as a key European aviation hub.’


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 12, 2020, 08:04:47 am
ETCS Levels 0, 1 and 2 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

Edited to amend to ETCS Levels 0, 1 and 2


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on May 12, 2020, 08:18:35 am
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

I assume, dangerously for an E&P Engineer  ;D Level 3 is initially for the Crossrail tunnel sections?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2020, 08:38:35 am
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

Thank you.  As a retired hotelier and computer programmer, I struggle to understand any of it.   However, I note odd gems in an ore of incomprehensibility.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: paul7575 on May 12, 2020, 10:52:33 am
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

I assume, dangerously for an E&P Engineer  ;D Level 3 is initially for the Crossrail tunnel sections?

AIUI the TfL core infrastructure actually uses a different Communications-based train control (CBTC) system, either because they didn’t expect ETCS to have reached the necessary functionality before Crossrail commissioning started, or IMHO they decided to have a permanent obstacle to attempts to run other trains through the tunnels. 

I believe they had to jump through quite a few hoops to avoid ETCS in their core section, being a new railway and in scope of The Technical Specifications for Interoperability (TSIs).

Paul

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: paul7575 on May 12, 2020, 11:12:27 am
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)
I see it actually refers to ETCS Levels 0,1 and 2 though?  Somewhere in the depths of the document it says Level 3 is not included.  (Is that full physical removal of lineside train detection and signals?)

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 12, 2020, 12:18:55 pm
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

I assume, dangerously for an E&P Engineer  ;D Level 3 is initially for the Crossrail tunnel sections?

AIUI the TfL core infrastructure actually uses a different CBTC system, either because they didn’t expect ETCS to have reached the necessary functionality before Crossrail commissioning started, or IMHO they decided to have a permanent obstacle to attempts to run other trains through the tunnels. 

I believe they had to jump through quite a few hoops to avoid ETCS in their core section, being a new railway and in scope of TSIs.

Paul

Yes, my schoolboy error.  I should have said Levels 0, 1 and 2 which will be utilised on the shared railway sections.  As I understand it either Level 2 or 3 will be used on the Core Section not used by other trains (well, not for a very long time at least).  The different Levels are explained here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on May 12, 2020, 02:35:32 pm

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P

ETCS Level 0 ???    If you added ATC would that make it level 1?

I ask as a baffled E&P Engineer


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 12, 2020, 09:23:21 pm

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P

ETCS Level 0 ???    If you added Automatic Train Control (ATC) would that make it level 1?

I ask as a baffled E&P Engineer

Yes it would, but it would need to be the Great Western Railway (GWR) version of Automatic Train Control (ATC) ;D

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on May 13, 2020, 07:08:34 am

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P

ETCS Level 0 ???    If you added ATC would that make it level 1?

I ask as a baffled E&P Engineer

Yes it would, but it would need to be the GWR version of ATC ;D

Is there any other,  can just see a 44' 3" ramp would work at 125 mph

Interesting document on the GWR ATC here https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&ved=2ahUKEwjV6_iAlbDpAhWbVBUIHcGIACIQFjASegQIBBAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmweb.co.uk%2Fcommunity%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dattach%26section%3Dattach%26attach_id%3D953953&usg=AOvVaw1NVyPmiY3fex5c6T9LydM8&cshid=1589349951811925


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Oxonhutch on May 13, 2020, 08:34:43 am
Is there any other,  can just see a 44' 3" ramp would work at 125 mph

Just under a quarter second should be enough, shouldn't it?  ;D

Although reading the attached article, the effective length is only 25'8" so 140 milliseconds might be a bit tight!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 13, 2020, 08:38:31 am

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P

ETCS Level 0 ???    If you added ATC would that make it level 1?

I ask as a baffled E&P Engineer

Yes it would, but it would need to be the GWR version of ATC ;D

Is there any other,  can just see a 44' 3" ramp would work at 125 mph

Interesting document on the GWR ATC here https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&ved=2ahUKEwjV6_iAlbDpAhWbVBUIHcGIACIQFjASegQIBBAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmweb.co.uk%2Fcommunity%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dattach%26section%3Dattach%26attach_id%3D953953&usg=AOvVaw1NVyPmiY3fex5c6T9LydM8&cshid=1589349951811925

Yes, it could be done with coded track circuits like the original 1968 Victoria tube line. Level 1 is nothing new.. ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 17, 2020, 08:10:55 pm
Latest Update: https://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-project-update


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 17, 2020, 08:14:55 pm
Latest Update: https://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-project-update

Does that represent a further delay?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 17, 2020, 08:18:17 pm
Latest Update: https://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-project-update

Does that represent a further delay?

No, it reads almost the same as January's update.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 18, 2020, 08:51:48 am
I picked out this snippet:

Quote
Each Elizabeth line station has over 50 km of communications cabling, 200 CCTV cameras, 66 information displays, 200 radio antennas, 750 loudspeakers and 50 help points. All this technology needs to be fully installed, tested and integrated.

 :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on May 18, 2020, 09:19:54 am
I picked out this snippet:

Quote
Each Elizabeth line station has over 50 km of communications cabling, 200 CCTV cameras, 66 information displays, 200 radio antennas, 750 loudspeakers and 50 help points. All this technology needs to be fully installed, tested and integrated.

 :P

750 loudspeakers at places like Taplow may lead to complaints of noise nuisance from nearby housing, might it not?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 18, 2020, 09:29:41 am
I picked out this snippet:

Quote
Each Elizabeth line station has over 50 km of communications cabling, 200 CCTV cameras, 66 information displays, 200 radio antennas, 750 loudspeakers and 50 help points. All this technology needs to be fully installed, tested and integrated.

 :P

750 loudspeakers at places like Taplow may lead to complaints of noise nuisance from nearby housing, might it not?

I think they are speaking of the central section stations (pun intended) ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on May 18, 2020, 01:47:27 pm
I've been in one of the Contractors Lab / development area.  It would be complex in its self if it was just one company supply systems but its not.  There are large companies who are normally in cut throat competition with each other have to work collaboratively.

One concern they have (and they are a the UK part of Germany company) is the free flow of information and engineers after the 31st Dec 2020, whilst it will not stop progress may be slowed down


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 19, 2020, 07:06:52 am
I picked out this snippet:

Quote
Each Elizabeth line station has over 50 km of communications cabling, 200 CCTV cameras, 66 information displays, 200 radio antennas, 750 loudspeakers and 50 help points. All this technology needs to be fully installed, tested and integrated.

 :P

750 loudspeakers at places like Taplow may lead to complaints of noise nuisance from nearby housing, might it not?

Depends who's singing.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on July 24, 2020, 01:25:49 pm
From The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/23/crossrail-opening-delayed-again-due-to-coronavirus)

Quote
The heavily delayed Crossrail will not open as planned in summer 2021 because of delays caused by coronavirus, its board has said.

The troubled railway, from Berkshire to Essex via central London, was originally expected to open in December 2018 but repeated delays have pushed it back.

On Thursday evening, Crossrail said: “A programme of this scale and complexity was already challenging, the impact of Covid-19 has clearly made the existing pressures more acute.

“Due to a pause of physical activity on sites and significant constraints on ongoing work – time has been lost, only some of which can be recovered.

“The opening of the central section between Paddington and Abbey Wood next summer, as announced earlier this year prior to Covid-19, is not achievable.”

Crossrail did not provide a new date for when the railway line, to be called the Elizabeth line, was now expected to be open, but said that a “more comprehensive update” would be issued in due course.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: didcotdean on August 21, 2020, 04:17:43 pm
Central portion now first half of 2022 on "best available programme information right now".

https://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/update-following-crossrail-board-august-2020

Implies through running December 2022. Maybe ...


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2020, 04:45:16 pm
On this occasion at least a much more plausible reason.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 21, 2020, 06:35:56 pm
"Rail project runs years behind schedule and way over budget".......who'd have thought it? 🤦‍♂️


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on August 22, 2020, 08:05:26 am
"Rail project runs years behind schedule and way over budget".......who'd have thought it? 🤦‍♂️

There is a reason ..........  ;D

Railway Engineers over the las 2 centauries have learnt to tell the Politicians and their supporting Civil Servants what they want to hear they not like hearing the accurate facts; so the Railway Engineers knowing something will take 10 years to build will agree with the Politicians and Civil Servants who want it done in 8. 

The UK works in a 4 year political cycle - 6 months post election to get their act together, 2 years euphoria try to meet their manifesto and then 2 years try to set themselves up for the next general election and then year 5 of the Parliament is electioneering.

In reality things get achieved in the first 2 1/2 years, nothing controversial gets done in the next 2.

Where as Railway Engineering has a 20+ year plan


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 22, 2020, 10:59:01 am
"Rail project runs years behind schedule and way over budget".......who'd have thought it? 🤦‍♂️

There is a reason ..........  ;D

Railway Engineers over the las 2 centauries have learnt to tell the Politicians and their supporting Civil Servants what they want to hear they not like hearing the accurate facts; so the Railway Engineers knowing something will take 10 years to build will agree with the Politicians and Civil Servants who want it done in 8. 

The UK works in a 4 year political cycle - 6 months post election to get their act together, 2 years euphoria try to meet their manifesto and then 2 years try to set themselves up for the next general election and then year 5 of the Parliament is electioneering.

In reality things get achieved in the first 2 1/2 years, nothing controversial gets done in the next 2.

Where as Railway Engineering has a 20+ year plan

Interesting anecdote - I'd love to see the evidence!

Does the same philosophy apply to costs? "Yes of course we can deliver HS2 for £36 billion!"  ::)



Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2020, 12:29:52 pm
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 22, 2020, 06:14:14 pm
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2020, 06:30:19 pm
Yes indeed, they’ve put an awful lot of effort into trying to stop the HS2 project over the years.  So far to no avail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on August 23, 2020, 09:44:28 am
"Rail project runs years behind schedule and way over budget".......who'd have thought it? 🤦‍♂️

There is a reason ..........  ;D

Railway Engineers over the las 2 centauries have learnt to tell the Politicians and their supporting Civil Servants what they want to hear they not like hearing the accurate facts; so the Railway Engineers knowing something will take 10 years to build will agree with the Politicians and Civil Servants who want it done in 8. 

The UK works in a 4 year political cycle - 6 months post election to get their act together, 2 years euphoria try to meet their manifesto and then 2 years try to set themselves up for the next general election and then year 5 of the Parliament is electioneering.

In reality things get achieved in the first 2 1/2 years, nothing controversial gets done in the next 2.

Where as Railway Engineering has a 20+ year plan

Interesting anecdote - I'd love to see the evidence!

Does the same philosophy apply to costs? "Yes of course we can deliver HS2 for £36 billion!"  ::)



Yes because time to build equates to cost, you can never tell a politician and civil servant taht yes we can build it in half the time but it will cost twice as much

This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2

I think it says a lot about how UK PLC goes about its public work, there is still the Victorian philosophy that private finance should be raised with no State funding


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: ellendune on August 23, 2020, 05:18:57 pm
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2

The taxpayers alliance is a shadowy extreme right wing lobby group whose funding is a closely guarded secret.  I am not sure how much weight I would put on any so called research they publish. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 24, 2020, 06:54:10 am
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2

The taxpayers alliance is a shadowy extreme right wing lobby group whose funding is a closely guarded secret.  I am not sure how much weight I would put on any so called research they publish. 

Right wing for sure, but describing the Taxpayers Alliance as "Shadowy Extreme right wing" puts them in the same bracket as neo Nazi groups which is a little silly, although I get that it's being used pejoratively.

Messenger shooting aside however, which data/findings from the report cited by II are you challenging exactly?

Much of it seems to come from HM Treasury commissioned studies, the NAO and the like.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: ellendune on August 24, 2020, 08:19:35 am
Much of it seems to come from HM Treasury commissioned studies, the NAO and the like.

The number of references to other taxpayers alliance report is notable.  I would not trust the references to NAO reports without checking whether they had properly used the evidence in those reports.

Right wing for sure, but describing the Taxpayers Alliance as "Shadowy Extreme right wing" puts them in the same bracket as neo Nazi groups which is a little silly, although I get that it's being used pejoratively.

How would you describe an organisation that has seems to be well funded but does not say where it comes from and puts forward ultra right wing libertarian economic views similar to the extreme right in the USA? Indeed it has been shown to have links to such organisations. Like them they also oppose policies designed to combat climate change. 

I am not saying there is no truth in anything they write, but I would consider what they say with extreme caution. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 24, 2020, 09:15:55 am
I did consider whether I should post a link to a Taxpayers Alliance report as I’ve been critical of them before and I was fairly confident TG wouldn’t be able to stop himself from picking up his HS2 bone again.

I decided I would as it seemed to be one of their more balanced pieces, and demonstrated that whilst the railways are probably the worst offender when it comes to overspending and delays on initial major project costs, they are by no means alone. 

Some of the projects, such as the primary school refurbishment one, I’d never even heard of.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 24, 2020, 09:43:14 am
I did consider whether I should post a link to a Taxpayers Alliance report as I’ve been critical of them before and I was fairly confident TG wouldn’t be able to stop himself from picking up his HS2 bone again.

I decided I would as it seemed to be one of their more balanced pieces, and demonstrated that whilst the railways are probably the worst offender when it comes to overspending and delays on initial major project costs, they are by no means alone. 

Some of the projects, such as the primary school refurbishment one, I’d never even heard of.

The ability to acknowledge that organisations with which you don't generally agree can on occasions be correct or at least add value is a sign of a strong intellect II, (and on that basis I'll forgive the ad hominem, which detracts from it!) 😉


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on October 02, 2020, 08:05:16 pm
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-54386721)

Quote
London's Crossrail project will be "shut down" without an additional ?1.1bn, transport bosses have said.

Papers from a Transport for London (TfL) finance committee meeting say the issue has become "increasingly critical" as the project "will soon have committed all of its funds".

The route - known as the Elizabeth Line - was initially due to open in December 2018 but has faced numerous delays.

TfL said discussions about funding were taking place with the government.

In July, the Crossrail board said the line's central section, from Paddington to Abbey Wood, was not expected to be ready until "the first half of 2022" while more funding could also be needed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on October 03, 2020, 10:39:34 am
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-54386721)

Quote
London's Crossrail project will be "shut down" without an additional ?1.1bn, transport bosses have said.

Papers from a Transport for London (TfL) finance committee meeting say the issue has become "increasingly critical" as the project "will soon have committed all of its funds".

The route - known as the Elizabeth Line - was initially due to open in December 2018 but has faced numerous delays.

TfL said discussions about funding were taking place with the government.

In July, the Crossrail board said the line's central section, from Paddington to Abbey Wood, was not expected to be ready until "the first half of 2022" while more funding could also be needed.

I guess in the "new normal" there's a discussion to be had about whether it's still justifiable to be pouring more and more money into a scheme for which demand is likely to be far lower than was originally anticipated, but notwithstanding that, the financial situation and delays are ridiculous.

Nice trains though, and TfL have given Taplow a much enhanced service, as well as an improved station environment and ever friendly staff!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: ellendune on October 03, 2020, 04:33:43 pm
I guess in the "new normal" there's a discussion to be had about whether it's still justifiable to be pouring more and more money into a scheme for which demand is likely to be far lower than was originally anticipated, but notwithstanding that, the financial situation and delays are ridiculous.

But what have you got if you don't put more money in?  You can't send it back and get a refund on what is spent.  So in economic terms the question is whether the whole benefit of completing the scheme is worth the extra ?1 billion or so?  Not whether the benefit is worth all that will have been spent. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on October 03, 2020, 05:04:21 pm
I guess in the "new normal" there's a discussion to be had about whether it's still justifiable to be pouring more and more money into a scheme for which demand is likely to be far lower than was originally anticipated, but notwithstanding that, the financial situation and delays are ridiculous.

But what have you got if you don't put more money in?  You can't send it back and get a refund on what is spent.  So in economic terms the question is whether the whole benefit of completing the scheme is worth the extra ?1 billion or so?  Not whether the benefit is worth all that will have been spent. 

As I said, there's a discussion to be had, but there clearly needs to be more accountability for these projects which vastly exceed budgets and timings.

I suspect, given the usual railway form, some years (more likely decades) down the line, we will be facing similar discussions over massive cost increases/time overruns with HS2 - in the case of cost of course, we already are.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: eightf48544 on October 05, 2020, 11:11:07 am
Nice trains though, and TfL have given Taplow a much enhanced service, as well as an improved station environment and ever friendly staff!

Agree with Taplowgreen the station looks good although it would be better still with the old footbridge in place. However it would mean no lift from the South Car Park.

The train service seems pretty reliable Three Up stoppers is an hours gardening.

Just a thought  now that the line is likely to be less well used in the central section when it opens it might it be time to add toilets to the 345s whislt many units are spare and could be run though the works .

One disabled two ordinary in a nine car.  Lose < 100 capacity out ot 1500.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on October 05, 2020, 04:10:50 pm
Agree, IMHO ALL new trains should have toilets.
Allowance needs to be made not just for the normal and foreseeable needs of passengers, but also for the inevitable strandings and breakdowns.
Remember the Lewisham debacle and the appalling conditions resulting.
Consider also the inevitable use of trains on longer routes than for which they were originally intended.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 05, 2020, 08:23:45 pm
Just a thought  now that the line is likely to be less well used in the central section when it opens it might it be time to add toilets to the 345s whislt many units are spare and could be run though the works .

One disabled two ordinary in a nine car.  Lose < 100 capacity out ot 1500.

I'm struggling to visualise how this could lead to the loss up to 100 sitting / standing passengers.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 05, 2020, 08:27:21 pm
From newcivilengineer.com (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/crossrail-confirms-network-rail-stations-delay-05-10-2020/)

Quote
Crossrail Ltd has confirmed that upgrade works to surface stations on the eastern and western sections of the railway will be pushed into next year due to the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic.
In a monthly update to the London Assembly, Crossrail Ltd chief executive Mark Wild said that despite recent progress at Romford, West Drayton, Ealing Broadway and Hayes & Harlington, the pandemic had interrupted progress.
?As a result of the temporary pause of Network Rail works due to Covid-19, it is likely that these enhanced stations, along with llford, Southall, Acton Main Line and West Ealing, will be completed as soon as possible in 2021,? he said.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: FremlinsMan on October 05, 2020, 08:33:46 pm
Just a thought  now that the line is likely to be less well used in the central section when it opens it might it be time to add toilets to the 345s whislt many units are spare and could be run though the works .

One disabled two ordinary in a nine car.  Lose < 100 capacity out ot 1500.

I'm struggling to visualise how this could lead to the loss up to 100 sitting / standing passengers.
To provide toilets, couldn't these trains have a carriage dedicated to that purpose? No seats, just toilets. It would truly be a "honey wagon".


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on October 05, 2020, 10:19:22 pm
Just a thought  now that the line is likely to be less well used in the central section when it opens it might it be time to add toilets to the 345s whislt many units are spare and could be run though the works .

One disabled two ordinary in a nine car.  Lose < 100 capacity out ot 1500.

I'm struggling to visualise how this could lead to the loss up to 100 sitting / standing passengers.

You said "up to". The original said "less than". They mean the same thing, don't they (apart from exact equality, that is)?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 05, 2020, 10:32:12 pm
Whilst a toilet retrofit would be most welcome, realistically it won?t happen.  Too costly and of course the depots would also need redesigning and expensive equipment fitted to allow for toilet waste to be tanked and disposed of.

It remains a major flaw of the trains and tarnishes the slick operation and otherwise suitable design of the trains IMHO.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on October 06, 2020, 10:05:55 am

It remains a major flaw of the trains and tarnishes the slick operation and otherwise suitable design of the trains IMHO.

Nonetheless, the time most, if not all, passengers will spend on a Crossrail train is less than many will spend on a bus in somewhere like Bristol. There is no call to equip buses with toilets, and fewer bus stops than stations have facilities.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on October 06, 2020, 03:46:18 pm
IMHO, toilets are a requirement even for relatively short rail routes due to the risk of stranding, breakdown or other delays.
Not comparable to buses. Passengers may alight from a delayed bus and relieve them selves, whereas on trains the policy is "keep them on board no matter what"


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on October 06, 2020, 04:44:47 pm
IMHO, toilets are a requirement even for relatively short rail routes due to the risk of stranding, breakdown or other delays.
Not comparable to buses. Passengers may alight from a delayed bus and relieve them selves, whereas on trains the policy is "keep them on board no matter what"

.............an empty Port bottle may come in handy in these circumstances?  ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: didcotdean on October 06, 2020, 04:44:57 pm
The TfL argument is that toilets will be available within nearly all Crossrail stations and for the others they are facilities nearby (eg for Paddington in the main line station and Bond Street in the shopping centre above). However, some people will be in more urgent need, and outside of emergencies the current low service frequencies makes breaking the journey unattractive.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on October 06, 2020, 06:10:12 pm
Agree, IMHO ALL new trains should have toilets.

[snip]

Consider also the inevitable use of trains on longer routes than for which they were originally intended.

I will give you "most" but not all.  There are no toilets on class 139 trains, and I think you would be hard pressed to justify them as and when the time comes for replacements.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on October 06, 2020, 07:50:08 pm
The TfL argument is that toilets will be available within nearly all Crossrail stations and for the others they are facilities nearby (eg for Paddington in the main line station and Bond Street in the shopping centre above). However, some people will be in more urgent need, and outside of emergencies the current low service frequencies makes breaking the journey unattractive.

The Elizabeth Line is a Metro service, the DfT have determined that metro services do not require toilets, many other services into London do not have toilets on board trains


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: 1st fan on October 06, 2020, 08:03:22 pm
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2

The taxpayers alliance is a shadowy extreme right wing lobby group whose funding is a closely guarded secret.  I am not sure how much weight I would put on any so called research they publish. 
My uncle has worked on large projects across the world. He said there's zero chance that they only realised months/weeks/days before it was due to open that it wouldn't. You have timelines, deadlines, project update meetings all of which would in any normal project indicate that there are going to be delays.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 06, 2020, 08:06:15 pm
The Elizabeth Line is a Metro service, the DfT have determined that metro services do not require toilets, many other services into London do not have toilets on board trains

But SWR are correcting that with their new 701 fleet of trains that should be in service within the next year or two. Or maybe three. It's a rail project so it's bound to take longer than expected for the complete rollout.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on October 07, 2020, 05:22:19 am
The TfL argument is that toilets will be available within nearly all Crossrail stations and for the others they are facilities nearby (eg for Paddington in the main line station and Bond Street in the shopping centre above). However, some people will be in more urgent need, and outside of emergencies the current low service frequencies makes breaking the journey unattractive.


And will these toilets be reliably available for use, throughout railway operating hours ?
I expect that a lot of them will be closed due to;
Essential maintenance.
Staff shortage.
Vandalism.
Water supply failure.
Security alert.
Some might never actually open, with a promise of toilets gradually turning into a future aspiration that is being "worked towards"

And of course the possibility of station toilets wont help during multi-hour strandings that seem to be an increasing part of modern railway operations.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reading General on October 07, 2020, 09:46:25 am


The Elizabeth Line is a Metro service, the DfT have determined that metro services do not require toilets, many other services into London do not have toilets on board trains
I guess the DfT have failed to recognise that as well as a service into London it's also a service to London for those beyond the city's outer limits. It's more than a metro service.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: didcotdean on October 07, 2020, 10:40:58 am
The previous generation of trains operating the service on the eastern side, ie Liverpool Street to Shenfield didn't have toilets, but they were in effect an inner-suburban configuration even though the journey time end to end can be up to three-quarters of an hour. Indeed the generation before that didn't have toilets either, at least for what would then have been second-class passengers.

The counter-example is the continued provision of toilets on Thameslink, but TfL hasn't got its hands on that.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 29, 2020, 11:53:02 am
As a bit of an aside, why do we refer to Crossrail as 'the biggest infrastructure project in Europe' when the EUR38 billion Grand Paris Express, with its 200km of tunnels, is plainly bigger?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjuMcWwMqPk

It'll be interesting to see if they manage to avoid some of the pitfalls of Crossrail...


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on October 29, 2020, 02:08:42 pm
Perhaps the title "biggest infrastructure project in Europe" is to prepare us for when the cost escalates to such a degree that it BECOMES the biggest infrastructure project in Europe, at least in terms of cost.

I expect that the Paris project will also increase in cost, but not as rapidly as Crossrail, so Crossrail could overtake it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on October 29, 2020, 04:40:03 pm
As a bit of an aside, why do we refer to Crossrail as 'the biggest infrastructure project in Europe' when the EUR38 billion Grand Paris Express, with its 200km of tunnels, is plainly bigger?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjuMcWwMqPk

It'll be interesting to see if they manage to avoid some of the pitfalls of Crossrail...

It should be remembered that from the UK point of view Europe now consists of only 4 nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on October 29, 2020, 06:06:45 pm
As a bit of an aside, why do we refer to Crossrail as 'the biggest infrastructure project in Europe' when the EUR38 billion Grand Paris Express, with its 200km of tunnels, is plainly bigger?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjuMcWwMqPk

It'll be interesting to see if they manage to avoid some of the pitfalls of Crossrail...

It should be remembered that from the UK point of view Europe now consists of only 4 nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland  ;D ;D ;D

I though it was the other way round - Crossrail can't be the largest anything in Europe, as we're not part of the continent of Europe any more. So I wonder, what are we now - the incontinent of Europe?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 29, 2020, 07:05:17 pm
...we're not part of the continent of Europe any more...

Ah well, if a clod be washed away by the sea and all that.

I note that the Grand Paris Express doesn't claim to be the biggest in Europe. That's because it's the biggest in the world. And its father doesn't smell of elderberries.

Edit: Correction: Mothers don't smell of elderberries.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on October 30, 2020, 09:42:53 am

It should be remembered that from the UK point of view Europe now consists of only 4 nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland  ;D ;D ;D

... at the time of writing.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: smokey on October 30, 2020, 03:13:29 pm

It should be remembered that from the UK point of view Europe now consists of only 4 nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland  ;D ;D ;D

... at the time of writing.

More correctly,  the United Kingdom view is that Europe is OVER the Water! ;D ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on October 30, 2020, 04:19:46 pm
"Channel fogbound, ferries and planes at a standstill. Europe isolated" Said to be an old newspaper headline.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on October 30, 2020, 06:27:47 pm
"Channel fogbound, ferries and planes at a standstill. Europe isolated" Said to be an old newspaper headline.

Except now there is TransManche Link  ;D which is not effected by fog


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on October 31, 2020, 04:22:09 pm

Except now there is TransManche Link  ;D which is not effected by fog

Steady now, ET! I got in trouble for coming over all French. I expected a ?50 fixed penalty.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2020, 07:57:05 pm
From Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/19bn-crossrail-faces-mothballing-over-state-funding-row-tfl-chief-warns-12138012)

Quote
Crossrail, London's long-delayed ?19bn east-to-west rail link, faces being "mothballed" without the release of urgent new government funding, the capital's transport chief has warned ministers.

Sky News has learnt that Andy Byford, the London transport commissioner, wrote to the permanent secretary at the Department for Transport (DfT) this week, seeking ?80m of immediate support to keep the project on track.

Mr Byford, who took on the role in May and has spent much of the last six months battling to secure funds to keep London's bus and Tube network running during the COVID-19 crisis, told Bernadette Kelly that without the additional funding being provided, he could relinquish responsibility for it.

"If agreement is not reached this week, we will have no option but to mothball the project and to seek alternative governance for its eventual completion," the letter said, according to a Whitehall source who had been briefed on it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2020, 07:59:09 pm
And from the RMT (https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmton-crossrail-speculation/)

Quote
RMT Press Office:

As speculation grows that Crossrail could be mothballed RMT demands Government stop using TFL and its workers as a political football.

Responding to reports that the Capital's Crossrail line could be mothballed without immediate funding transport union RMT today called on the Government to stop using TFL as a political football.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

"What's happening between the Government and TFL is nothing short of a disgrace. As we approach next year's London Mayoral Election it's clear the Government are using TFL and our members as a political football and rather than stick to their pledge of "Building Back Better" they're starving TFL of vital funds and playing games with worker's livelihoods.

"London transport and its workforce are vital to the economic recovery from Covid-19 and RMT will not be afraid to do whatever is necessary to protect our member's jobs and livelihoods"


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on November 21, 2020, 08:31:33 pm
This is not an increase in the projected cost - for once. The last time the estimated cost to completion rose was in August, when adding Covid-19 the the previous figures (updated) was reported as an extra ?450M. Negotiations between TfL and DfT on who will pay and when have not got far - and of course TfL and London are broke. This is all in a paper from the last TfL board meeting  (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/20200930-board-chairs-action-crossrail-governance-transition-web.pdf)(20th October):
Quote
8 Funding Position and Financial Implications

8.1 On 7 December 2018, a Chair?s Action paper entitled ?Crossrail Update? was approved, giving an increase to Crossrail funding of ?2.15bn to an overall financial envelope of ?14.964bn (excluding Network Rail costs), reflecting the need for additional funding announced by CRL in the summer of 2018. This funding was negotiated with Government and included a ?750m loan facility between TfL and the Secretary of State, along with a GLA grant to TfL of ?1.4bn.

8.2 In November 2019, CRL announced that additional funding over and above the ?2.15bn funding package would be required to complete the project. At that time, an estimate of additional funding, at differing levels of probability, of between ?400m and ?650m was provided by CRL. Funding discussions with government on how to resolve this funding gap took place during the following months, but progress with government remained slow. Once the Covid-19 crisis began, the focus of funding discussions with government shifted to immediate issues related to TfL?s wider financial position and it was acknowledged by all parties that Crossrail funding would be dealt with at a later point as part of the H2 negotiations, when the impact of Covid-19 on CRL?s funding requirement was better understood.

8.3 On 21 August 2020, CRL announced that the previously stated funding gap of between ?400m and ?650m had increased, on an emerging basis, to up to ?1.1bn.

8.4 CRL has not yet fully utilised the current ?2.15bn funding package in cash terms and this is expected to be exhausted in March 2021. However, the full amount of the existing funding package is anticipated to be fully committed by mid-October 2020. At this point, if funding discussions are not concluded, CRL will be unable to make any further financial commitments.

8.5 TfL and the GLA are working through potential funding proposals that seek to close this gap. Government has consistently stated that ?London should pay?, irrespective of the fact that the majority of the economic benefit of the project flows to the exchequer. However, the options for London based funding are extremely limited, even more so post-Covid-19, and are inherently interdependent on both TfL and the GLA?s wider financial position, which have suffered substantial adverse impacts as a result of Covid-19. These discussions will remain ongoing as part of wider funding discussions with government and will be progressed in parallel to the governance transition.

There is also a lot about structural changes - not to the tunnels, this is "governance": moving the board chairs on a sinking ship.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on November 21, 2020, 09:14:40 pm
This is not an increase in the projected cost - for once. The last time the estimated cost to completion rose was in August, when adding Covid-19 the the previous figures (updated) was reported as an extra ?450M. Negotiations between TfL and DfT on who will pay and when have not got far - and of course TfL and London are broke. This is all in a paper from the last TfL board meeting  (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/20200930-board-chairs-action-crossrail-governance-transition-web.pdf)(20th October):
Quote
8 Funding Position and Financial Implications

8.1 On 7 December 2018, a Chair?s Action paper entitled ?Crossrail Update? was approved, giving an increase to Crossrail funding of ?2.15bn to an overall financial envelope of ?14.964bn (excluding Network Rail costs), reflecting the need for additional funding announced by CRL in the summer of 2018. This funding was negotiated with Government and included a ?750m loan facility between TfL and the Secretary of State, along with a GLA grant to TfL of ?1.4bn.

8.2 In November 2019, CRL announced that additional funding over and above the ?2.15bn funding package would be required to complete the project. At that time, an estimate of additional funding, at differing levels of probability, of between ?400m and ?650m was provided by CRL. Funding discussions with government on how to resolve this funding gap took place during the following months, but progress with government remained slow. Once the Covid-19 crisis began, the focus of funding discussions with government shifted to immediate issues related to TfL?s wider financial position and it was acknowledged by all parties that Crossrail funding would be dealt with at a later point as part of the H2 negotiations, when the impact of Covid-19 on CRL?s funding requirement was better understood.

8.3 On 21 August 2020, CRL announced that the previously stated funding gap of between ?400m and ?650m had increased, on an emerging basis, to up to ?1.1bn.

8.4 CRL has not yet fully utilised the current ?2.15bn funding package in cash terms and this is expected to be exhausted in March 2021. However, the full amount of the existing funding package is anticipated to be fully committed by mid-October 2020. At this point, if funding discussions are not concluded, CRL will be unable to make any further financial commitments.

8.5 TfL and the GLA are working through potential funding proposals that seek to close this gap. Government has consistently stated that ?London should pay?, irrespective of the fact that the majority of the economic benefit of the project flows to the exchequer. However, the options for London based funding are extremely limited, even more so post-Covid-19, and are inherently interdependent on both TfL and the GLA?s wider financial position, which have suffered substantial adverse impacts as a result of Covid-19. These discussions will remain ongoing as part of wider funding discussions with government and will be progressed in parallel to the governance transition.

There is also a lot about structural changes - not to the tunnels, this is "governance": moving the board chairs on a sinking ship.

And no doubt some cats will get chubbier and as the violin plays "Nearer My God to Thee"


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: ellendune on November 21, 2020, 09:38:20 pm
Given the government's stated ambition is to end the imbalance of investment towards London and South East this is politically difficult for them even before you add the politics of a Labour Mayor and a very Conservative government and a mayoral election in May.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on November 25, 2020, 04:38:35 pm
From Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/19bn-crossrail-faces-mothballing-over-state-funding-row-tfl-chief-warns-12138012)

Quote
Crossrail, London's long-delayed ?19bn east-to-west rail link, faces being "mothballed" without the release of urgent new government funding, the capital's transport chief has warned ministers.

From New Civil Engineer (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/government-commits-to-funding-crossrail-completion-25-11-2020/)

Quote
The ?19bn Crossrail project received a major boost today (25 November) as the government committed to financing the completion of the scheme.

The project has been beset by a series of delays and cost overruns, raising concerns over its delivery.

The decision to finance the completion of the project was confirmed in the government?s National Infrastructure Strategy, which insists levelling up the rest of the UK should not mean levelling London down.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on November 25, 2020, 07:11:38 pm
From Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/19bn-crossrail-faces-mothballing-over-state-funding-row-tfl-chief-warns-12138012)

Quote
Crossrail, London's long-delayed ?19bn east-to-west rail link, faces being "mothballed" without the release of urgent new government funding, the capital's transport chief has warned ministers.

From New Civil Engineer (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/government-commits-to-funding-crossrail-completion-25-11-2020/)

Quote
The ?19bn Crossrail project received a major boost today (25 November) as the government committed to financing the completion of the scheme.

The project has been beset by a series of delays and cost overruns, raising concerns over its delivery.

The decision to finance the completion of the project was confirmed in the government?s National Infrastructure Strategy, which insists levelling up the rest of the UK should not mean levelling London down.

It worth noting that the trains were built in Derby, the electrical traction power control system for the central section and the CIS for the whole line designed and equipment built in Ashby de la Zouch (an no that's not Belgum) and Manchester, the rail from Scunthorpe etc many of the workforce constructing it are from all over the UK.

By not completing it could have a bigger effect on the economy than the funding



Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on November 27, 2020, 07:48:38 am
It's also a good result for TfL and the Mayor of London. Somebody else is paying.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 27, 2020, 08:06:55 am


It's also a good result for TfL and the Mayor of London. Somebody else is paying.

Isn't that always the case?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: REVUpminster on November 27, 2020, 10:20:49 pm
I think the government will just throw money at it till it's done and open before the next General Election as it does pass through Tory heartlands.

it is just a glorified relief line for the central Central Line and stations such as Stratford, Liverpool Street and Paddington.

The only new area served is Abbey Wood which originally was to be served by a branch from the Jubilee Line at North Greenwich for which the junction was built at time of construction.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on November 27, 2020, 10:54:26 pm
I think the government will just throw money at it till it's done and open before the next General Election as it does pass through Tory heartlands.

it is just a glorified relief line for the central Central Line and stations such as Stratford, Liverpool Street and Paddington. ...

I'm going to question "just" - are they not also using their purse of money as a lever to force their political agenda and controls over the cash-strapped Transport for London? 

Were you questioning when/whether the Central Line actually needs relief at the moment?  Perhaps it could me more than that with long distance cross London trains.  Norwich to Plymouth, Swansea to Brussels or Sandwich to Weston-super-Mare?  HS2 brings Birmingham to Paris.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: REVUpminster on November 28, 2020, 06:52:38 am
Crossrail like the Central Line before at the outer ends is just a takeover of existing BR lines. The Central took over the Epping line with some new build via Gants Hill then taking over more BR lines to Hainault that came from Ilford. West Ruislip was similar.

If Birmingham to London with HS2 in half an hour then Paris does become a real possibility. But who remembers the Nightstars languishing in Long Marston for the proposed sleeper service from Scotland to Paris; eventually being sold to Italian Railways.

After covid air travel will return to normal very quickly. Look how many went abroad (500,000) as soon as the first lockdown ended and probably brought back the second wave from "safe" countries such as Spain and Greece.

The Christmas break is expected to bring a third wave just from locals. The government probably knows this from advanced bookings on various modes of transport.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on November 28, 2020, 07:54:28 am
I think the government will just throw money at it till it's done and open before the next General Election as it does pass through Tory heartlands.

it is just a glorified relief line for the central Central Line and stations such as Stratford, Liverpool Street and Paddington.

The only new area served is Abbey Wood which originally was to be served by a branch from the Jubilee Line at North Greenwich for which the junction was built at time of construction.

There is an Election soon, May 21 the deferred Mayor for London, BoJo desperately wants the tories to win it back from Labour.

It actually more a relief for the Jubilee Line, Bakerloo (Pad - Baker St) in the west, in the east takes the pressure again off of the Jubilee and the GE services into Liverpool St.

Passenger numbers may never return to the plus 7% year on year growth the railways in London and the SE had seen in the last 15 years, however within a couple of years passengers numbers will return, because we humans like to travel and meet people.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: ellendune on November 28, 2020, 09:37:18 am
Passenger numbers may never return to the plus 7% year on year growth the railways in London and the SE had seen in the last 15 years, however within a couple of years passengers numbers will return, because we humans like to travel and meet people.

I am not so sure London commuter traffic will return to the same levels. Companies have started to realise that they can do more with electronic communications than they thought and so the very large and expensive London office starts to look less like value for money.

The 1960's and 70's saw many companies move their head offices out of London to replicate these as large centralised offices in other parts of the country (often in places like Reading - so not so far from London).  I don't see this as a model either. I don't think many companies will abandon offices all together but a mix of a network of smaller offices distributed around the country with more home working and electronic communications seems to me to be the future. 

The company I now work for has a Head Office in Cheshire (so not costing central London prices), but has many offices around the country (including the one I don't work in at the moment) a recent senior Head Office job was advertised internally as "location flexible" the the external advert said based in Cheshire. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: rogerw on December 02, 2020, 10:39:03 am
Announced yesterday that a ?825M funding package has been agreed to enable completion. The funding package will be split into a ?500M loan with a fixed repayment profile and a ?325M loan that will be repaid subject to MCIL and BRS revenues going forward. Ultimately this means that Londoners will foot the bill.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reginald25 on December 02, 2020, 10:54:03 am
Always seems to me that the real benefit of Crossrail to the underground network is relief on the sub-surface section east of Paddington where three routes share the same tracks to Aldgate.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on December 02, 2020, 02:44:08 pm
Whatever to pros and cons of Crossrail, however the pandemic pans out, and whoever wins the mayoral election, Crossrail will get finished one day. There is simply not enough capacity to shift everyone from A to B across London, as well as into and out of the capital from its dormitories. It may be that with office workers taking up residence in the study permanently, banks fleeing to the continent to escape Brexit, Oxford Street becoming a row of high class charity shops and all the supporting cast of newsagents, coffee shops and the like going to the wall, that London will be a lot less busy. Personally, I wouldn't bet on it long term, and if you look back to when Crossrail was first proposed, you can see that it is very much a long-term job. Whether it connects Birmingham to the City, replaces or augments some underground lines or lets city workers live in Reading and have a one-train journey to work isn't really relevant. What matters is that more people can get around more easily, new through routes are possibly, and the pressure is eased on the rest of the network. Politics or no politics, it will have whatever money it needs to get finished.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on December 02, 2020, 07:23:05 pm
I agree, the overspending and delays are regrettable, but leaving the project three quarters built and substantially unusable was not a realistic option.

We know not what the future holds, but I fully expect that Crossrail will be well used when it eventually opens. For decades, rising passenger numbers within London or indeed further afield have simply resulted in worse overcrowding rather than in more capacity.
Nice to see some extra capacity actually being built.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: REVUpminster on December 02, 2020, 09:51:24 pm
It will be well used because it takes over two existing commuter services. How much extra traffic it generates we'll have to see.

At first it is only taking revenue from GWR and Anglia and giving it to TFL


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on December 03, 2020, 07:49:27 am
Always seems to me that the real benefit of Crossrail to the underground network is relief on the sub-surface section east of Paddington where three routes share the same tracks to Aldgate.

It is a bit wider than that, it will indeed easy the loading on the Circle, H&S, District and Met, it will a bigger impact on the Jubilee and from Padd the Bakerloo, likewise from the East it will relive the Jubilee and Central from the SE it opens up new routes into the City, Westend and Docklands.

The other key benefit for travellers from the west will be the Farringdon interchange with Thameslink giving easy access to services to Cambridge, Peterborough also for those east of Reading easier access South to Gatwick etc

It is easy to look at Crossrail in the very short term of the Covid impact, Crossrail will still be here in a 100 years when Covid will be an event in history as the Spanish flu is to us of a 100 years ago.

The one thing I have learnt in my 45 year railway engineering career is what I am renewing now another engineer designed and installed it over 50, 70 ........... 100 years ago and what I am seeing the designs for and witnessing the build of will be in service long after I am in my pine box.

The politicians are circulating ready to pull the corps of the Crossrail project apart once its complete so they can walk away with trophies to aid their prospects at elections, it is the nature of UK politics


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Godfrey Tables on December 11, 2020, 12:14:21 am
I came across this on Youtube. For those that cannot wait for Crossrail to fully open this drivers eye view from Abbey Wood to Paddington might tide you over for a bit.
I must admit I rather enjoyed this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHjoav_sb88 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHjoav_sb88)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 12, 2020, 01:59:59 am
Thanks for the link.

We?re being kept waiting, but, boy, what a cracking piece of railway infrastructure.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyN on December 12, 2020, 09:41:47 am
Crossrail are cross.
The Video has been removed due to a copyright claim by Crossrail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Surrey 455 on December 12, 2020, 11:51:14 am
Crossrail are cross.
The Video has been removed due to a copyright claim by Crossrail.

I didn't see that video. was it the same as the one here at ITV News (https://www.itv.com/news/london/2020-12-09/crossrails-elizabeth-line-increases-train-testing)?

I'm not sure how long ITV News reports stay online.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 12, 2020, 01:22:53 pm
I didn't see that video. was it the same as the one here at ITV News (https://www.itv.com/news/london/2020-12-09/crossrails-elizabeth-line-increases-train-testing)?

It was the same video but running in realtime in 4K rather than timelapsed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: RailCornwall on December 14, 2020, 09:52:04 pm
From the official Crossrail site

https://youtu.be/r1HZHDTjGSw


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: REVUpminster on December 15, 2020, 11:24:51 am
 The train stopped in the eastbound track and did not go into the turnback sidings which all looked occupied.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2020, 11:37:44 am
Yes, although for the time being all lines are acting as turnback sidings in effect.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on December 15, 2020, 12:19:04 pm
We?re being kept waiting, but, boy, what a cracking piece of railway infrastructure.

Absolutely!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Lee on January 25, 2021, 08:58:35 am
Crossrail?s revised cost and opening date are under ?significant pressure? due to an ?under-resourced? and ?over-stretched? workforce, Jacobs latest Project Representative (Prep) reports conclude - https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/over-stretched-workforce-puts-crossrail-schedule-under-significant-pressure-25-01-2021/



Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 25, 2021, 09:42:14 am
Crossrail?s revised cost and opening date are under ?significant pressure? due to an ?under-resourced? and ?over-stretched? workforce, Jacobs latest Project Representative (Prep) reports conclude - https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/over-stretched-workforce-puts-crossrail-schedule-under-significant-pressure-25-01-2021/



Pretty dreadful really but I doubt many will be surprised, and to paraphrase a Blair spin Doctor, it's a good time to bury bad news.

When NCE asked HS2 Ltd how many of its staff had been recruited directly from Crossrail ? via a Freedom of Information request submitted in September 2020 ? HS2 Ltd said that it was ?unable to answer [the] request using current reporting tools? because its ?data is not organised in such a way?. - I very much doubt the Information Commissioner would let them get away with that one if pushed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on January 25, 2021, 12:58:43 pm
Crossrail?s revised cost and opening date are under ?significant pressure? due to an ?under-resourced? and ?over-stretched? workforce, Jacobs latest Project Representative (Prep) reports conclude - https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/over-stretched-workforce-puts-crossrail-schedule-under-significant-pressure-25-01-2021/

It was suggest years ago by Crossrail that it should be allowed to work collaboratively with HS2 in regards to workforce and skills training, this was ruled out by the Government as being uncompetative, increase costs and add delay.

The other thing not mentioned is the Brexit effect, large numbers of EU countries skilled workers migrated back to the EU as there was no certainty they and their families could remain.  For a large number of the jobs in Crossrail do not fit into the UK Governments essential skill profile


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on January 25, 2021, 02:35:28 pm
But, says the  Reading Chronicle's website (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19035857.crossrail-will-run-berkshire-may-open-sooner-thought/),

"Crossrail, which will run through Berkshire, may be open sooner than thought."


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on January 25, 2021, 02:39:45 pm
But, says the  Reading Chronicle's website (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19035857.crossrail-will-run-berkshire-may-open-sooner-thought/),

"Crossrail, which will run through Berkshire, may be open sooner than thought."

I feel that could right,


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on January 25, 2021, 09:53:47 pm
But, says the  Reading Chronicle's website (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19035857.crossrail-will-run-berkshire-may-open-sooner-thought/),

"Crossrail, which will run through Berkshire, may be open sooner than thought."

That would make a lot of sense, providing it can be done safely. I reckon it would be better to start when passengers numbers are low and the alternatives are still in place in case of problems.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 29, 2021, 12:16:52 am
A couple of recent video updates:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXGWKcoGynM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYHvZMRLlA

CEO Mark Wild is a nice, genuine chap, but surely they could have fixed his hat on straight!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on May 20, 2021, 08:18:00 am
Crossrail has given Twyford homeowners something to smile about (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/crossrail-given-twyford-homeowners-something-20632900)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reading General on May 20, 2021, 02:14:09 pm
Aren’t they all lucky.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 21, 2021, 07:23:01 am
Aren’t they all lucky.

Pretty good for Taplow too!  :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: johoare on May 21, 2021, 01:42:25 pm
And Maidenhead! Just need Crossrail to actually open then I can sell up and move on  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on July 18, 2021, 11:02:05 am
We don't seem to have an active thread for Crossrail progress - I wonder why ....

But there is some. Trial running just started again after a blockade to allow work on stations. Before that they had managed 8 tph, and this week they had a go at 12 tph. On Monday they just about managed that level for an hour or so, but without keeping to the timetable, and gave up at lunchtime. Tuesday was better, and by Wednesday there was pretty well a full (trial) service for six hours with none missing and only a few a few minutes late. So then they took the rest of the week off!

They have also rejigged the phasing of the introduction of public services to the tunnel, as documented in IanVisits (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2021/07/12/crossrail-to-make-changes-to-its-staged-opening-plans/). The differences don't really affect passengers much, it's more about how the operations are managed but should allow through running a bit earlier (than something).


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: didcotdean on August 20, 2021, 04:05:05 pm
The latest update from Crossrail today shows several views of the completed Paddington concourse and other areas, the test running and looks forward: https://youtu.be/iTzsCvvFEoA


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Bob_Blakey on August 21, 2021, 11:05:07 am
In the video Mr Wild specifies a finally final completion of the project by May 2023 and passengers / taxpayers are expected to be impressed?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on August 21, 2021, 12:38:45 pm
In the video Mr Wild specifies a finally final completion of the project by May 2023 and passengers / taxpayers are expected to be impressed?

I think he has been quite consistent with his messages and updates.  He started at one point for the first part (Paddington / Abbey Wood) as "we are planning for"  he is now sending out a much more confident message as "we are well on track for"

Also he is now say what the final stages are with expected time lines.

This phase of Crossrail was left a bit of mess by the previous 'construction' senior leadership who had totally forgot about commissioning and integrating a highly complex system


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on August 21, 2021, 01:47:32 pm
In the video Mr Wild specifies a finally final completion of the project by May 2023 and passengers / taxpayers are expected to be impressed?

I think he has been quite consistent with his messages and updates.  He started at one point for the first part (Paddington / Abbey Wood) as "we are planning for"  he is now sending out a much more confident message as "we are well on track for"

Also he is now say what the final stages are with expected time lines.

This phase of Crossrail was left a bit of mess by the previous 'construction' senior leadership who had totally forgot about commissioning and integrating a highly complex system

The plan has several stages of opening, and I don't think they have ever succeeded in putting this across clearly. It may not even be possible. For one thing, when passengers start using the central tunnel, they will still have to change at Paddington to and from the west. Paddington station was finished recently, will be an important interchange for the surface station for a few months, and will then become somewhere to whizz past unseen. So for passengers from Taplow (especially those going to Bond Street) the first opening is not a lot of use.

There's an IanVisits report on that that includes a simpler statement of the phasing, as it affects Paddington, which may help:
Quote
When the line opens next year*, people coming in from the east via Canary Wharf will use the new station, while services coming in from the west will continue to use the mainline station.

Later next year, it’s planned that all services will use the new platforms, with a slightly better service for the Abbey Wood branch than the Shenfield branch, and then the whole lot is linked up in early 2023.
*A report in July (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2021/07/27/crossrail-aiming-for-february-2022-opening-date/) has Mark Wild giving "early February 2022" as the earliest date for that step.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 31, 2021, 04:47:56 pm
If anyone wants to watch how the testing is going, the signalmaps site has the best detail I've seen:

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#crossrail:946

Trains, signals, routes, berth occupation all shown (though the route set can be a little difficult to interpret).


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on August 31, 2021, 05:17:26 pm
If anyone wants to watch how the testing is going, the signalmaps site has the best detail I've seen:

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#crossrail:946

Trains, signals, routes, berth occupation all shown (though the route set can be a little difficult to interpret).

Plus there's still the odd glitch like a train appearing where it is and where it isn't at the same time.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: bradshaw on September 08, 2021, 01:18:55 pm
Looks interesting

RTT Stratford Tfl for this Sunday

Apologies, when modifying the link it seems OK but changes when posted.

Suggest go to RTT, enter Stratford, TOC XR Tfl, time 1023-1953, date 12/09/21

Crossrail trial running through the tunnels


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: GBM on September 08, 2021, 02:58:38 pm
Looks interesting

RTT Stratford Tfl for this Sunday

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:SRA/2021-09-12/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

Crossrail trial running through the tunnels

Link not working - just a page saying the SRA has now closed!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: bradshaw on September 08, 2021, 03:43:21 pm
Have modified the post taking out the link and instead suggesting search terms on RTT.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: GBM on September 08, 2021, 03:55:24 pm
Still only seeing the SRA link (which is still closed!); no link visible to the RTT site.  Apologies if only me


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: bradshaw on September 08, 2021, 05:02:22 pm
Opening up the link did get to the SRA. That part of the link is hidden when you copy and paste from the RTT web address.

However if you go to the RTT site
Enter
Location  Stratford
TOC XR Tfl
Time they run from 1023 to 1953
Date 12/09/21
That opens the page and should show trains running east from London Paddington


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on September 08, 2021, 05:05:51 pm
Still only seeing the SRA link (which is still closed!); no link visible to the RTT site.  Apologies if only me

Issue is our system for expanding abbreviations on the forum - with an abbreviation in the URL it causes trouble.

Abbreviations are only expanded once in a message so if I mention SRA, WVS and XR before I give the URL , it works:


https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:SRA/2021-09-12/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on September 08, 2021, 05:12:30 pm
You could also try

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:TCR/2021-09-12/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: JayMac on October 14, 2021, 12:42:55 pm
The left hand side of London Paddington has now been opened out in preparation for the commencement of Elizabeth Line services through Paddington.

(https://i.ibb.co/X8bPp56/IMG-20211014-122153.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/2vNXddS/IMG-20211014-122303.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Nr9yDqg/IMG-20211014-122329.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on November 17, 2021, 11:12:12 am
There was a London Assembly Transport Committee meeting (https://www.london.gov.uk/about-us/londonassembly/meetings/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=173&MId=7077) yesterday, with a detailed situation update from Mark Wild. There's a three-hour video of proceedings, but if you feel too time-poor to cope with that there is a summary on IanVisits (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2021/11/16/crossrail-aims-to-start-trial-operations-within-days/). Here's a few highlights from that:
Quote
Crossrail aims to start Trial Operations “within days”
Published 16 November 2021 By Ian Mansfield Transport News

The final testing stage before the Elizabeth line opens to the public is due to start within the next few days, Crossrail’s CEO, Mark Wild has confirmed.

The Crossrail project has been in a phase known as Trial Running since April, which tests the railway with a timetabled service similar to the one the line will have when it opens to the public, and was used to shake out the final bugs in the complicated software needed to run the line and build up the reliability of the service.
...
Earlier this year, there were thousands of small things to fix, and now they’re down to the final 620 items to fix to open the line.

Trial Operations

The railway is now ready for the final stage before it opens to the public, the trial operations where hundreds of TfL staff will carry out passenger drills and safety evacuations to prove that the line is perfectly safe to open to the public.
...
Trial Operations will take 3-4 months, depending on the reliability growth of the systems. That means that at the moment, they are aiming to open the line as soon as possible between Feb and June 2022, but it’s down to those final tests and the “tuning up” of the systems.

The wide range for the opening date is also expected to narrow in the New Year, mainly once the final updates are made to the ventilation and trail control systems are completed over the Christmas period.

Stations

Out of the two stations left to hand over to TfL, Canary Wharf station is expected to be handed over by Christmas.

Two years ago, Bond Street was running 18 months behind the rest of the line, but over the past two years, they’ve almost caught up with the rest of the project, and the station is now, if not totally finished, it is revenue ready. All of the physical installation work will be completed by February 2022, and then there’s the document assurance process to confirm what’s built matches what was ordered.
...
Ultimately, a decision has been taken that if they can open the Elizabeth line early in the opening window next year, they will do so without Bond Street station, and add it in later.

Financing

The project is working to keep close to the £825 million funding deal, but at the time they were asking for £1.1 billion, and at the moment it still seems likely that something will be needed between the two.

If you look at RTT, trial operations has been running a five-minute service (12 tph) and doing that within 5 minutes for an hour or two at a time most days. But it rarely lasts longer, and then a train gets ten or twenty minutes late. That takes a couple of hours to work out of the system without cancellations, and then it's back to regular running again. There's also quite often a train missing and a ten-minute gap. So, not like any clock I'd use, but probably good enough to progress to the next stage.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on November 20, 2021, 05:35:51 pm
Got my jargon wrong! It wasn't trial operations up to last week, it was trial running. Trial operations started today, involving the same 12 tph for most of the day, and going on to near midnight (tapering off). As well as more staff getting involved in training and dress rehearsal mode, there will be staged incidents for everyone to practice. So if RTT shows massive disruption, it's all planned. Probably.

And then, the same plan says public service starts on 6th March. So if that falls flat on its face due to "unforeseen circumstances", there will be loads of embarrassment - but at least by now there's been a lot of rehearsal of that too.

While a visible (if not yet nailed down) end-point is welcome, the whole timescale does look rather ... unVictorian, doesn't it?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on January 09, 2022, 06:58:11 pm
Having gone back to their 12 tph of trial operations last week, today for the first time trains were meant to pop out of their burrowtunnel and go somewhere. OK, it was only Acton Main Line, so "somewhere" is a bit over the top, and in any case a signal failure near Hanwell ruled it out for most of today. But at 17:03 a train from Abbey Wood got there - with a delay of six minutes getting past Westbourne Park (ribbon cutting?).

It was meant to return, and didn't - it seems to have vanished - and neither of the two more scheduled to do the same left the warm security of their tunnel. But another tiny step, at least.

Correction - I missed some this morning, before the signal sickness struck, so the first got in just before 10:00.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on January 17, 2022, 07:59:30 pm
Whilst a partial opening will no doubt be ultimately achieved, hopefully this year, I am very doubtful as to the longer term reliability of this railway.
Apart from the general issues of anything new tending towards greater complexity and reduced reliability, there seems to be a particular built in problem in this railway.

My understanding is that two different signaling systems are used, one for the core section and one for the outer bits. Both systems have to interface with the computer systems on the train.
If the changeover between these two systems does not work as intended then the brakes are automatically applied


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: paul7575 on January 17, 2022, 08:49:37 pm
Whilst a partial opening will no doubt be ultimately achieved, hopefully this year, I am very doubtful as to the longer term reliability of this railway.
Apart from the general issues of anything new tending towards greater complexity and reduced reliability, there seems to be a particular built in problem in this railway.

My understanding is that two different signaling systems are used, one for the core section and one for the outer bits. Both systems have to interface with the computer systems on the train.
If the changeover between these two systems does not work as intended then the brakes are automatically applied
I thought three different signalling systems are used. The Crossrail specific communications based system in the core tunnels, AWS/TPWS on Stratford to Shenfield for the foreseeable future, but also between Westbourne Park and the Heathrow junction initially, and then ETCS in the Heathrow tunnels.  The GW stretch should have been made ETCS ready beforehand, but hasn’t been yet?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on January 18, 2022, 11:36:37 am
I thought three different signaling systems are used. The Crossrail specific communications based system in the core tunnels, AWS/TPWS on Stratford to Shenfield for the foreseeable future, but also between Westbourne Park and the Heathrow junction initially, and then ETCS in the Heathrow tunnels.  The GW stretch should have been made ETCS ready beforehand, but hasn’t been yet?

Even more complication and risks of failure.

And of course opportunity for the train builders and the suppliers of the THREE different signaling systems to blame each other.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 18, 2022, 01:34:43 pm
Whilst a partial opening will no doubt be ultimately achieved, hopefully this year, I am very doubtful as to the longer term reliability of this railway.
Apart from the general issues of anything new tending towards greater complexity and reduced reliability, there seems to be a particular built in problem in this railway.

My understanding is that two different signaling systems are used, one for the core section and one for the outer bits. Both systems have to interface with the computer systems on the train.
If the changeover between these two systems does not work as intended then the brakes are automatically applied

I agree that having more than one signalling system adds to the complexity, and I am sure there will be issues cropping up now and again.  However:

1)  Don’t the Thameslink Class 700s change signalling systems when they go through their core section which uses ATO?  Do we hear of many problems with them?

2)  During the extensive testing programme for Crossrail, units are regularly changing signalling modes in real life now whilst coming on and off Old Oak Common depot to get to Royal Oak. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on January 18, 2022, 03:39:29 pm
Whilst a partial opening will no doubt be ultimately achieved, hopefully this year, I am very doubtful as to the longer term reliability of this railway.
Apart from the general issues of anything new tending towards greater complexity and reduced reliability, there seems to be a particular built in problem in this railway.

My understanding is that two different signaling systems are used, one for the core section and one for the outer bits. Both systems have to interface with the computer systems on the train.
If the changeover between these two systems does not work as intended then the brakes are automatically applied

I agree that having more than one signalling system adds to the complexity, and I am sure there will be issues cropping up now and again.  However:

1)  Don’t the Thameslink Class 700s change signalling systems when they go through their core section which uses ATO?  Do we hear of many problems with them?

2)  During the extensive testing programme for Crossrail, units are regularly changing signalling modes in real life now whilst coming on and off Old Oak Common depot to get to Royal Oak. 

The Thameslink class 700 in the core do use ATO based on a NR form of ETCS which is different to Crossrail core which uses a system based on the same system as the Northern line.  The Thameslink core also has conventional signalling and PoSA -Proceed-on-Sight Authority.

One of the main integrators of the systems on Crossrail is Siemens Transportation, I saw the Crossrail system in a Siemens UK factory during its factory acceptance testing a few years ago, the level of inter company cooperation is extremely high, none of the companies want or can afford reputationally for Crossrail to fail technically   


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on January 18, 2022, 07:38:52 pm

I agree that having more than one signalling system adds to the complexity, and I am sure there will be issues cropping up now and again.  However:

1)  Don’t the Thameslink Class 700s change signalling systems when they go through their core section which uses ATO?  Do we hear of many problems with them?

2)  During the extensive testing programme for Crossrail, units are regularly changing signalling modes in real life now whilst coming on and off Old Oak Common depot to get to Royal Oak. 

The Thameslink class 700 in the core do use ATO based on a NR form of ETCS which is different to Crossrail core which uses a system based on the same system as the Northern line.  The Thameslink core also has conventional signalling and PoSA -Proceed-on-Sight Authority.

One of the main integrators of the systems on Crossrail is Siemens Transportation, I saw the Crossrail system in a Siemens UK factory during its factory acceptance testing a few years ago, the level of inter company cooperation is extremely high, none of the companies want or can afford reputationally for Crossrail to fail technically   
[/quote]

Whilst that all sounds very reassuring, ISTR rather similar reassurances about the failed  IET project.
Things like various "essential requirements" regarding time to couple and uncouple, and resistance to waves at Dawlish.
And testing so as to ensure reliability in service.
And all "trains from London that need to be full length, will be"
Guaranteed availability, with heavy penalties payable for any shortfalls.

And we have seen how that has ended, even if partly hidden by/blamed upon the pandemic.
 So I do not share the optimism expressed by some.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on January 18, 2022, 08:09:05 pm

Whilst that all sounds very reassuring, ISTR rather similar reassurances about the failed  IET project.
Things like various "essential requirements" regarding time to couple and uncouple, and resistance to waves at Dawlish.
And testing so as to ensure reliability in service.
And all "trains from London that need to be full length, will be"
Guaranteed availability, with heavy penalties payable for any shortfalls.

And we have seen how that has ended, even if partly hidden by/blamed upon the pandemic.
 So I do not share the optimism expressed by some.

None of which has more than a tenuous link to the matter of signalling on Crossrail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on January 18, 2022, 09:06:09 pm
The connection is indeed tenuous, but both are large, complex and expensive railway projects. One of which has gone orribly wrong.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 18, 2022, 09:12:05 pm
The connection is indeed tenuous, but both are large, complex and expensive railway projects. One of which has gone orribly wrong.

My mistake for thinking you were wanting to discuss a different topic, rather than just working out a way to bring it round to one of your old favourites. 

Tedious rather than tenuous.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on January 19, 2022, 09:18:16 am
The connection is indeed tenuous, but both are large, complex and expensive railway projects. One of which has gone orribly wrong.

My mistake for thinking you were wanting to discuss a different topic, rather than just working out a way to bring it round to one of your old favourites. 

Tedious rather than tenuous.

Crossrail is a complex project, it will have teething problems when it enters public use, just as TLP was a complex project and had teething problems.

I would not say that IEP is a failed project.

Crossrail for the Thames Valley and Thames Estuary rail users will be a game changer for accessing the West End, City, Docklands and Heathrow; add to the mix interchange at Farringdon with Thameslink


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: CyclingSid on January 25, 2022, 02:47:05 pm
BBC News brief test of Crossrail https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-60120731 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-london-60120731)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on January 27, 2022, 07:59:30 am
Opening March, May or June (yes, 2022!)

From New Civil Engineer (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/crossrail-bosses-may-wait-for-bond-street-to-be-complete-before-opening-elizabeth-line-27-01-2022/)

Quote
Crossrail Ltd has earmarked March 2022 as the earliest the Elizabeth line could open to passengers, with June 2022 recorded as the latest possible opening date. A third possible opening date of May 2022 is also included in Crossrail Ltd’s latest target opening scenarios. All three dates are within the previously declared opening window of the first half of 2022.

Waiting for Bond Street to be ready would mean that the March date would be highly unlikely, with May or June a more realistic target date.

A decision on Bond Street was due to be made at a “Go/No Go meeting” scheduled for 2 December. However, according to Jacobs latest PREP [project representative] report, that meeting was delayed until an unidentified date in January.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on January 27, 2022, 01:18:22 pm
Opening March, May or June (yes, 2022!)

From New Civil Engineer (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/crossrail-bosses-may-wait-for-bond-street-to-be-complete-before-opening-elizabeth-line-27-01-2022/)

Quote
Crossrail Ltd has earmarked March 2022 as the earliest the Elizabeth line could open to passengers, with June 2022 recorded as the latest possible opening date. A third possible opening date of May 2022 is also included in Crossrail Ltd’s latest target opening scenarios. All three dates are within the previously declared opening window of the first half of 2022.

Waiting for Bond Street to be ready would mean that the March date would be highly unlikely, with May or June a more realistic target date.

A decision on Bond Street was due to be made at a “Go/No Go meeting” scheduled for 2 December. However, according to Jacobs latest PREP [project representative] report, that meeting was delayed until an unidentified date in January.

In the Jan 22 update from Mark Wild CEO of Crossrail Bond Street stats it has been "decoupled" from the opening of the railway in this video at 2min 54 sec https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnVeE8DxTzk is where he mentions it.

Having been involved in Thameslink and the opening of a new section of that (Canal Tunnels) and the impact it had on the already operational railways, I know there is a well structured and rigorous safety verification process that involves all the 'stake holders'  (Police both BTP and civil, Fire and Rescuce, ambulance, service, local authorities, other railway infrastructure operators etc) TfL DfT etc and of course the ORR 

The process is not an overnight one the evidence will have been verified as the pre opening testing was going on.

March might be a big ask, Easter school holidays I would say is nearer date and defiantly in time for Queen Platinum Jubilee


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on January 29, 2022, 09:48:05 pm
Opening March, May or June (yes, 2022!)


The first fare-paying passenger from Abbey Wood to Paddington has already been carried according to ITV News (https://www.itv.com/news/london/2022-01-26/crossrail-security-breach-as-passenger-travels-by-mistake-on-test-train).

Quote
Crossrail security breach as passenger travels by mistake on test train to Paddington

Wednesday 26 January 2022, 3:46pm

London transport bosses investigated a serious security breach on Crossrail after a member of the public travelled on a test train by mistake.

The passenger got on board at Abbey Wood in south east London and travelled through the new tunnels to Paddington.

Platforms are meant to be out of bounds to the public but Crossrail boss Howard Smith said the man wandered through an open gate.

"Abbey Wood station is used by Southeastern trains, it's open, it's been built for several years," said Howard Smith.

"But the Elizabeth Line platforms should be closed off with a gate.


"The gate used by drivers to get to and from the trains was left open and a passenger innocently came down to the platform and boarded the train that they saw was marked Paddington which is where they wanted to go.

"As soon as they got off the train they were picked up by staff.

"They conducted an investigation and changed the arrangements regarding the gate keeping it locked and with regard to signage," Mr Smith added.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 30, 2022, 08:11:53 am
That's an absolutely shocking breach of security.

If someone with evil intent had been able to just breeze through in that manner God knows what the consequences could have been.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 30, 2022, 10:38:03 am
Not great I grant you, but mountains out of molehills if you ask me.  It’s not as if they spent the whole day roaming the tunnels and stations at will.  They snuck through a gate onto a train and got picked up when they got off at the other end.

I’d have thought someone with ‘evil intent’ would be better off waiting until it was properly open…or get a job actually working on the project?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 30, 2022, 03:05:32 pm
Not great I grant you, but mountains out of molehills if you ask me.  It’s not as if they spent the whole day roaming the tunnels and stations at will.  They snuck through a gate onto a train and got picked up when they got off at the other end.

I’d have thought someone with ‘evil intent’ would be better off waiting until it was properly open…or get a job actually working on the project?

I wish I could feel so casual about it, but having been involved in two near misses myself (Irish and Islamist terrorist incidents), it's difficult.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 30, 2022, 03:38:20 pm
I was at Paddington when the Edgware Road bomb went off.  A working tube line of course, which was my point really.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on January 30, 2022, 04:35:11 pm
The train schedule loaded for today was for a test of 24 tph from Westbourne Park through the tunnel to various other ends. Not continuous, each way had about half of each hour at full rate, but in the event it was never sustained for even half an hour. Some attempt was kept up at running as many as possible until lunchtime, when they gave up. No doubt it was all a valuable learning experience.

I did wonder if the complete lack of trains in the tunnel meant the information feed had failed. But there is now a something going through - 5L80, which changed into 5C80 at Paddington Crossrail. That, however, is an inter-depot transfer from west to east, and I think that's why it gets a 5xxx ID.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on January 30, 2022, 05:05:09 pm
Not great I grant you, but mountains out of molehills if you ask me.  It’s not as if they spent the whole day roaming the tunnels and stations at will.  They snuck through a gate onto a train and got picked up when they got off at the other end.

I’d have thought someone with ‘evil intent’ would be better off waiting until it was properly open…or get a job actually working on the project?

"Snuck" doesn't seem to be the right word here. "Walked" through a gate that should not have been open and got on the train showing "Paddington" as the destination seems more like it. As you say, a real malefactor would probably wait until the service was up and running, then buy a ticket or use a card to gain entry.

Embarrassing, probably not a sacking matter, but there will have been a memo with a three-line whip.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on February 08, 2022, 04:18:37 pm
There are internal memos seeking volunteer railway staff to assist in a couple of evacuation exercise days.  (Note these are not open to members of the public)

So things are getting close to opening, the hard line in the sand for opening seems to be in time for the Queen's Platinum Jubilee weekend ..................... or heads will roll  :o


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: eightonedee on February 08, 2022, 06:53:07 pm
It might be the Charles Line by the time they finish!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Surrey 455 on February 08, 2022, 07:56:05 pm

So things are getting close to opening, the hard line in the sand for opening seems to be in time for the Queen's Platinum Jubilee weekend ..................... or heads will roll  :o

Before the previous scheme was mothballed, it had been hoped to open in 1991...

Thames News (London ITV)

 


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on February 09, 2022, 09:50:34 am
There are internal memos seeking volunteer railway staff to assist in a couple of evacuation exercise days.  (Note these are not open to members of the public)

So things are getting close to opening, the hard line in the sand for opening seems to be in time for the Queen's Platinum Jubilee weekend ..................... or heads will roll  :o

I expect that some degree of opening will indeed be achieved by the Jubilee weekend.
Fully open and with a frequent service, most unlikely in my view. Far too much still to go wrong.

Signaling trips or locks up, resulting in a very restricted and slow service.
Over sensitive fire alarms resulting in frequent evacuations.
RMT find something unsafe and threaten to strike, more money makes the risk go away.
Extreme weather floods, overheats, or breaks something important.
Failures of traction current, due to increased complexity and reduced reliability.
Failures of power supply to stations, backup arrangements found inadequate.
Endless security alerts.
Cyber criminals close down the computer systems and demand ransom. Foreign powers likewise to cause trouble.
Extinction rebellion or other protest groups do something disruptive.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on February 09, 2022, 06:31:00 pm
It might be the Charles Line by the time they finish!

At least that beats Portishead, which may yet be the George VII line.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 09, 2022, 09:45:55 pm
I expect that some degree of opening will indeed be achieved by the Jubilee weekend.
Fully open and with a frequent service, most unlikely in my view. Far too much still to go wrong.

The opening stages have been clearly defined for some time now (though without exact dates) - https://www.crossrail.co.uk/project/our-plan-to-complete-the-elizabeth-line/phased-opening

I consider it very unlikely that the initial 5-minute interval service (12tph) won’t happen from the get go…any less and you might risk disruption due to crowding…and I would certainly describe that as frequent.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on February 10, 2022, 08:11:14 am
New-look Burnham Station opens ready to bring the Elizabeth Line to Reading (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/new-look-burnham-station-opens-23038847)

I did wonder about some of the phrasing in the article, such as: "Part of the new Crossrail network, Burnham Station will eventually connect Elizabeth Line passengers with central London as well as Shenfield in the east."


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reading General on February 10, 2022, 10:07:31 am
This has been going on since the end of British Rail. Crossrail has been sold and confused as a brand new line for the service’s entire length rather than a tunnel under london joining railways well established. I guess it’s a marketing trick learnt from estate agents and the like that the current cabinet are now also using for ‘new’ hospitals etc. Using the word ‘delivered’ to describe something done appeared around the same time. It works too, many times have I corrected better educated than me people on what crossrail actually is, with many convinced it was a brand new line in tunnel from Reading to Essex running at unimaginable speeds. The connecting of stopping services much like Thameslink, which wasn’t promoted in the same manner and isn’t confused as more than it is.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: REVUpminster on February 13, 2022, 06:52:34 am
It might be the Charles Line by the time they finish!

Could it be.......
(https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/50396097238_9bf3058787_m.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/2jMkaWf)william line (https://flic.kr/p/2jMkaWf) by Robert (https://www.flickr.com/photos/revupminster/), on Flickr


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on February 13, 2022, 07:50:33 am
I'm pretty sure that member's views will range from ardent royalist to fervent federalist with many shades between. I'm going to take the highly unusual step of asking members to stay roughly on topic, as well as the highly usual step of having/asking members to be respectful of all individuals, even where we strongly question their office or actions. This request is NOT triggered by posts so far but rather in anticipation of where they could lead, especially over a period of time ahead. It will probably made a separate thread in due course; this thread HAS triggered my own though process, looking ahead.

The Queen has reached the age of 97, and UK data tells us that life expectancy is not great at that age - the following table showing (mid year 2020 the last line, mid year 2019 the row above, and so on) how the numbers of people in the UK of a certain age falls rapidly in the "very old".  So, whether or not we are royalist, unviewed or federalist, we should also be realistic and understand that in all likelihood The Queen will pass while most of us are still around, and on this forum too.  I understand that "Operation Forth Bridge" is in place for when this comes to pass and no doubt it have elements that relate to the forum (the very title of the operation does!) and also no doubt that members will continue to act as they have with other areas of great controversy, such as Brexit and of great public concern such as Coronavius, Climate and the Environment.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ukveryold.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Celestial on February 13, 2022, 08:08:43 am
Interesting to see in that table if you look at the bottom left you can see a pattern in recent years where there's a sudden big increase of around 50% in the number reaching each age. It's most obviously seen in 2020 where the number aged 100 goes up from 4980 to 7590 (and it happens a year earlier for 99 and so on).

That looks like the effect of the end of WW1, when everyone who survived returned home and family life resumed.  Amazing that we can still see a pattern in our population due to an effect of the Great War. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on February 13, 2022, 09:08:15 am
Interesting to see in that table if you look at the bottom left you can see a pattern in recent years ....

Utterly fascinating.  I had wondered but - duh - of course!   On a more sombre note, I see a significant reduction of numbers in nearly every year in 2020 - the effect of Coronavirus, I would suggest. And I wonder what the figures for 2021 will show when they're published in September.

Data source:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/ageing/datasets/midyearpopulationestimatesoftheveryoldincludingcentenariansunitedkingdom


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Celestial on February 13, 2022, 09:34:47 am
I think that's as much to do with birth patterns a century ago too, in that the post war baby boom was very short lived, so the columns below 100 are already drifting back downwards after the sudden spike.  I can't seem to post an image, but there's a chart in the link you posted where you can see the spike.



Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on February 13, 2022, 09:56:42 am
I think that's as much to do with birth patterns a century ago too, in that the post war baby boom was very short lived, so the columns below 100 are already drifting back downwards after the sudden spike.  I can't seem to post an image, but there's a chart in the link you posted where you can see the spike.

I'm not sure if this is the chart - but I have hosted it, and it does show the pattern change
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ukover90.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Celestial on February 13, 2022, 10:07:12 am
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/ageing/bulletins/estimatesoftheveryoldincludingcentenarians/2002to2020

No sorry , I meant Figure 3 here, which you can see how births drifted down during the war, shot up immediately afterwards, and quickly drifted back down again.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on February 13, 2022, 10:39:01 am
No sorry , I meant Figure 3 here, which you can see how births drifted down during the war, shot up immediately afterwards, and quickly drifted back down again.

This one then  ;D :

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/ukpostww1nookie.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Celestial on February 13, 2022, 10:47:50 am
Yes, thank you! And of course, 1918 to 20 was also the period of the Spanish Flu pandemic, just to give a parallel with modern times.

Sorry, we've drifted a bit off Crossrail haven't we...


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on February 13, 2022, 11:30:24 am
If you want to know the expected future survival rates of old ladies you should look at a life table, which shows that directly. ONS has three-year average tables for the whole population, for download from this page (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/lifeexpectancies/datasets/nationallifetablesunitedkingdomreferencetables).

The latest table is for 2018-2020, and gives numbers per 100,00 live births. This is the bottom right-hand bit of the table (women now aged 95 -99; there are no annual data for age 100 and over):

age     mx     qx     lx   dx   ex
95 0.2601770.23022712458.8 2868.4  3.06
960.289863  0.253171    9590.5    2428.0  2.83
970.3227980.277939  7162.4 1990.7  2.62
980.3524560.299649  5171.7 1549.7  2.43
990.3808250.319910   3622.0 1158.7  2.26

The columns show (using standard life table notation) probabilities as number, and population numbers per 100,000:
age  exact years at the start of each year of age
mx   central mortality rate - number of deaths from 'age' to 'age'+1 divided by the average population during that year
qx    mortality rate - number of deaths from 'age' to 'age'+1 divided by the population at 'age'
lx     survivors - how many of 100,000 live births would be still alive at exact 'age' based on qx in this table
dx    is the difference in lx: the number of the original 100,000 dying at 'age' to 'age'+1
ex    is the period life expectancy - how many years of life there are on average at 'age'

These are worked out for each year's population data and then averaged over the three years 2018-2020.
These are population figures - based on all the people alive at the same time born over a long period, not cohort figures - based on those born at the same time, reaching any given age in different years.

So for 100 97-year old women, of average health for the country as a whole, 28 will not reach age 98. They will on average live 2.62 years, and have a less than evens chance of reaching 100.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Celestial on February 13, 2022, 12:43:10 pm
Thank you, (although that looks very complicated - I think I'm going to be out of my depth if this conversation continues!)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Ralph Ayres on February 13, 2022, 10:28:21 pm
Just one small correction - it's Operation London Bridge; I have to hand the plans for church bellringing at the relevant time.  The name did lead to some double-takes in the rail industry a few years back when London Bridge station was redeveloped.

The change of name from Crossrail to the Elizabeth line incidentally has also caused some difficulty with terminology, sprung as it was on all but a select few who were presumably in the know before it was revealed.  The two terms can't always just be swapped by cut-and-paste, and the new name doesn't lend itself to abbreviating in a dignified manner where space is limited.  It's also far from clear why there is to be a separate Elizabeth line roundel outside stations it serves when Victoria line stations for instance just have a generic "Underground" roundel.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: CyclingSid on February 14, 2022, 07:15:41 am
I see a significant reduction of numbers in nearly every year in 2020 - the effect of Coronavirus, I would suggest.

Might be worth looking at Excess Deaths https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/excessdeathsinenglandandwales2020final (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/excessdeathsinenglandandwales2020final)

There are some FoI responses for 2021 figures https://www.ons.gov.uk/search?q=Excess+deaths (https://www.ons.gov.uk/search?q=Excess+deaths)

Further detail at https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/excess-mortality-in-england-weekly-reports (https://www.gov.uk/government/statistics/excess-mortality-in-england-weekly-reports)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on February 24, 2022, 02:45:51 pm
A good set of tweets from someone involved in one of the recent mass evacuation test exercises:

https://twitter.com/omari_antony/status/1494989982540390403?t=PWMpGLJhVYUWUxxldQuGig&s=19


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: CyclingSid on March 14, 2022, 10:13:33 am
Sorry this is a drop and run
https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/1503051135317381131?cxt=HHwWlsC4_ejC9NspAAAA (https://twitter.com/MrTimDunn/status/1503051135317381131?cxt=HHwWlsC4_ejC9NspAAAA)
but I am a bit busy


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on April 27, 2022, 11:26:15 pm
Another step towards full rate operations is being tried on Sunday: a whole day of 20 tph (or twelve hours, anyway). The schedule is 3 minute intervals all day, which sounds more demanding than 2.5 minutes with a recovery gap every half hour.

Of each hour's trains, ten will turn at Westbourne Park, four at Old Oak Common, four at West Ealing sidings, and two at Hayes and Harlington. So it might be worth a look to see how they are doing, on one of the signalling maps if you are not going to be close to Westbourne Park.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on April 28, 2022, 07:56:26 am
It’ll be interesting to see how it goes.  I shall take a peek at the signalmaps site at some point during the day for a gander.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on April 28, 2022, 11:43:38 am
I expect that trial running will go reasonably well.
The real and much more severe test will be how well the system survives contact with real passengers.
Some of whom will be drunk, stupid or otherwise NFTT.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Red Squirrel on April 28, 2022, 02:01:07 pm
I have renamed this thread in anticipation of imminent opening!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Bmblbzzz on April 28, 2022, 03:47:26 pm
Yes, thank you! And of course, 1918 to 20 was also the period of the Spanish Flu pandemic, just to give a parallel with modern times.

Sorry, we've drifted a bit off Crossrail haven't we...
Not so much drifted as jumped right over the tracks! Very interesting though.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 01, 2022, 03:00:08 pm
All going largely to plan so far it looks.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: CyclingSid on May 04, 2022, 10:01:11 am
Finally a date:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61095510 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61095510)
Abbey Wood to Paddington initially no Sundays or Bond Street


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on May 05, 2022, 01:40:16 pm
Finally a date:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61095510 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61095510)
Abbey Wood to Paddington initially no Sundays or Bond Street

Complete with criticism of the Mayor for announcing the opening on local election day.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on May 05, 2022, 05:26:06 pm
Incidentally, should we now merge this thread with the other thread Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 05, 2022, 06:50:00 pm
Incidentally, should we now merge this thread with the other thread Crossrail - The Elizabeth Line - ongoing discussion, merged topics?

Or maybe it would be better to split off posts in both since yesterday's announcement into a new thread, called "Crossrail opening and operation" or the like.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: infoman on May 06, 2022, 05:57:04 am
Thinking of getting the first London bound train of the day,and see what it all about.

I presume this is where most of the News station will be reporting LIVE from on the day.

Would any one want any sort of souvenirs type things that might be given away,FREE?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on May 06, 2022, 07:59:51 am
Meanwhile, from the Metro via MSN (http://a.msn.com/01/en-gb/AAWUgLS?ocid=se):

Quote
More observant passengers noticed an odd inconsistency as new signs for the Elizabeth Line were unveiled at Tube stations.

The purple signs say ‘Elizabeth Line’, but travelling around the capital, which is a different style of labelling to other routes, like ‘Victoria’, ‘Piccadilly’ and ‘Northern’.

Economist Daniel Tomlinson tweeted a picture, writing: ‘Feeling very disappointed in TfL this morning. Deciding to label it “Elizabeth line” rather than “Elizabeth” is a striking error. As @ClioChris says, are we now to call it the Elizabeth Line Line? Change here for the Central, Circle, and Elizabeth Line Lines.’

So if you find someone looking very confused, and asking staff if it is called the Elizabeth Line or the Elizabeth Line Line, don't be too harsh - he is a leading economist.

I wonder if this should have gone to the Pedantry thread?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on May 06, 2022, 08:08:46 am
I wonder if this should have gone to the Pedantry thread?

Perhaps. Should we meet at Battersea Power Station Station to discuss that?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on May 06, 2022, 05:58:29 pm
I wonder if this should have gone to the Pedantry thread?

Perhaps. Should we meet at Battersea Power Station Station to discuss that?

A splendid observation, Graham! I think that is the only one.

I've decided that the post should stay here, if only because I don't want to be known as the pedant who moved a classic piece of pedantry to the Pedantry thread. We don't want another pedants' revolt.


Title: BBC reporting LIVE from CROSSRAIL Liverpool street station
Post by: infoman on May 13, 2022, 06:40:56 am
on the opening of Crossrail in just a few weeks time.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 13, 2022, 09:22:39 am
This press release from ORR (https://www.orr.gov.uk/search-news/orr-confirms-green-light-elizabeth-line-opening) starts:
Quote
ORR confirms green light for Elizabeth line opening
13 May 2022

London’s Elizabeth line has received its final authorisations of its trains, stations, and infrastructure from the rail regulator ahead of its opening on Tuesday 24 May.

The Office of Rail and Road (ORR) has issued approvals for all the Elizabeth line stations – with the exception of Bond Street – confirming the stations and infrastructure meet the requirements for passenger use.

Abbey Wood, Canary Wharf, Custom House, Farringdon, Liverpool Street, Paddington, Tottenham Court Road, Whitechapel and Woolwich stations have all been given the green light and issued with authorisations.

Bond Street has been given the go-ahead for safe evacuation procedures only, as it will open for passengers later than the rest of the line.

ORR has also authorised the overall routeway for the Elizabeth line’s track and tunnel infrastructure, to allow trains to run through the central section.

The new railway will transform how Londoners and visitors cross the capital with Paddington to Canary Wharf, for example, taking just 18 minutes.

Transport for London recently confirmed the Elizabeth line will open to the public on Tuesday 24 May...

No doubt that's why there is an extra meeting of TfL's Elizabeth Line (née Crossrail) Committee today (with a regular one on May 25th).


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 17, 2022, 06:27:20 pm
Ans now it's ... been opened, nominally, but not so as to make it open. From TfL (https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2022/may/her-majesty-the-queen-visits-paddington-elizabeth-line-station):
Quote
Her Majesty The Queen visits Paddington Elizabeth line station
17 May 2022

During the visit, Her Majesty The Queen and His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex, met with staff, including Elizabeth line apprentices, drivers, and station staff

  • The Elizabeth line will open to customers on Tuesday 24 May, radically cutting journey times, increasing capacity and encouraging people back onto public transport
  • The opening of the railway coincides with this year's Platinum Jubilee celebrations, marking The Queen's 70 years on the throne

Her Majesty The Queen and His Royal Highness The Earl of Wessex, today (Tuesday 17 May), visited Paddington Elizabeth line station to mark the completion of the transformational new railway ahead of its opening to passengers on Tuesday 24 May. 

During the Royal visit, Her Majesty officially unveiled a plaque to celebrate the completion of the line named in Her honour. The plaque will be permanently mounted at Paddington station, celebrating The Queen's connection with the railway for generations to come.

Accompanied by HRH The Earl of Wessex, Her Majesty also met with staff who have been key to the Crossrail project, as well as Elizabeth line staff who will be running the railway - including apprentices, drivers, and station staff. 

Her Majesty and His Royal Highness were joined on the visit by the Prime Minister Boris Johnson, The Mayor of London Sadiq Khan, Transport for London's Commissioner Andy Byford, the Transport Secretary the Right Hon. Grant Shapps, and the Crossrail Chief Executive Mark Wild. 

London is paying for most of the Elizabeth line, with nearly 70 per cent of the total funding paid by London - made up of roughly 30 per cent is from London's farepayers, around 40 per cent from London's businesses - combined with 30 per cent from Government.

The Elizabeth line is already supporting regeneration and new homes, jobs, and economic growth across the length of the route. The new railway is expected to support thousands of new homes and jobs and will boost the UK economy by an estimated £42bn. It will transform rail transport in London and the South East by increasing central London rail capacity by 10 per cent and relieving congestion on many existing rail and Tube lines. It will also transform the accessibility of the transport network by radically increasing the number of step-free stations and providing spacious trains.

In the run up to opening, station staff are making final preparations at the nine new central section stations. Businesses from right around the UK have benefited from work connected to the Elizabeth line. Throughout its construction, the railway has had an extensive supply chain which has supported businesses of all sizes, and jobs and skills creation across the whole country. The Class 345 trains running on the Elizabeth line were built in Derby, roundels and signage for the line were supplied by a family-run business on the Isle of Wight, and a company based in Leeds strengthened and protected London's Victorian sewer networks during construction. 

To mark the name change from Crossrail to the Elizabeth line, The Queen came to see the railway during its construction in 2016. Today's visit builds upon a long-held association between the Royal family and London's Transport network. Her Majesty became the first reigning monarch to travel on the London Underground in 1969, when she opened the Victoria line.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Ralph Ayres on May 17, 2022, 10:09:15 pm
Quote
To mark the name change from Crossrail to the Elizabeth line, The Queen came to see the railway during its construction in 2016

...isn't quite how I or my former colleagues remember it. The name change came completely out of the blue to all but the chosen few, and had clearly been foisted on TfL by the then Mayor of London (whose name escapes me...). It's hard to abbreviate neatly to fit any text display with a low character limit, and because it's regarded as a separate operation rather than just another Tube line it ends up quite clumsy in places; it always has to have the word "line" included when the others are often just referred to as the Bakerloo, District etc. The Victoria line has of course long suffered from a similar clumsiness but I'm not aware of the same degree of official policy. I look forward to hearing an automated announcement mention the Elizabeth line line!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 17, 2022, 10:49:53 pm
It's hard to abbreviate neatly to fit any text display with a low character limit, and because it's regarded as a separate operation rather than just another Tube line it ends up quite clumsy in places; it always has to have the word "line" included when the others are often just referred to as the Bakerloo, District etc. The Victoria line has of course long suffered from a similar clumsiness but I'm not aware of the same degree of official policy.

I've seen a lot of comment about the name with "line" being needed because it's not a proper tube line, but I can't see it. Surely you can't just use a living queen's name just as it is. Hardly lèse-majesté, but it just feels wrong - too familiar. With Victoria's one, maybe there were enough radical traditionalists in the 50s to apply the same logic, but by now that wouldn't count for much. However, there is a practical issue that would call for a bit of policy - Victoria (the station) is a major destination. So best to avoid just "Victoria" on wayfinding signs (though I can't check whether they do sitting here at home).


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: RichardB on May 17, 2022, 11:10:12 pm
I have to say I really don't care what it's called - I'm just glad it's opening.

Good to see the Queen at Paddington today - it would be interesting for someone to pull together all the rail things she has opened over the years, plus her Royal Tours.  The 50s tour of Devon & Cornwall saw the railways go to mad lengths to show off for the Queen including covering whole station buildings in drapes, special signs etc e.g. Saltash when it was a very busy station.

In recent times, no draping of stations and she travels on an ordinary EMU to King's Lynn for Sandringham.  Here's a video from 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPpazK0P0kc

And then we had this in 2013 

https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/the-queen-arrival-at-st-ives-and-visit-to-lifeboat-news-footage/687600762

Closet gricer the Queen, clearly.......



Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Bmblbzzz on May 18, 2022, 08:48:43 am
In recent times, no draping of stations and she travels on an ordinary EMU to King's Lynn for Sandringham.  Here's a video from 2019 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPpazK0P0kc
I hope this doesn't mean Rod Hull fixing the Sandringham TV aerial.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 18, 2022, 06:23:20 pm
TfL now want to sneak in an extra stage - 5b-! From the Elizabeth Line Readiness report (https://board.tfl.gov.uk/documents/s17801/elc-220525-elizabeth-line-readiness.pdf) to the EL Committee meeting next week (hence it's dated 25 May):
Quote
5 Stage 5b
5.1 The plan to complete the end-to-end railway entails three steps; 5b-minus which will provide a 22 trains per hour peak (16 trains per hour off-peak) frequency in the central section (Paddington – Whitechapel) which can commence outside of a National Rail timetable change but requires a 16-week notice period; and stages 5b and 5c both of which step up the peak frequency to 24 trains per hour but require auto-reverse

You've probably forgotten exactly what stage is which - I had to check up. Assuming they are as reported last
year, stage 3 starts next week. Stage 5c is the final service, and 5b is much the same train frequencies but simplified so no train runs outside the core on both east and west sides.

So it looks as if 5b- doesn't alter the service pattern, just adds more of the same.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on May 19, 2022, 04:21:48 pm
"Reading and other Berkshire railway stations have appeared on the Transport for London tube map for the first time" (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/new-tube-map-including-elizabeth-24003385)

I may be being unfair to "Get Reading", but I think that the article is mostly an old story. Certainly I can recall local news websites last year marvelling at Reading being included on a map of London transport and comments (perhaps here in the Coffee Shop) about how Reading had been squeezed in at right angles.

Or perhaps that map showed only the Crossrail route west from Paddington. Whatever, the article intro is wrong.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 19, 2022, 05:04:00 pm
"Reading and other Berkshire railway stations have appeared on the Transport for London tube map for the first time" (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/new-tube-map-including-elizabeth-24003385)

I may be being unfair to "Get Reading", but I think that the article is mostly an old story. Certainly I can recall local news websites last year marvelling at Reading being included on a map of London transport and comments (perhaps here in the Coffee Shop) about how Reading had been squeezed in at right angles.

Or perhaps that map showed only the Crossrail route west from Paddington. Whatever, the article intro is wrong.

I had to stop and think about that - I don't often see the "tube map", mostly I use the "rail and tube services" one. But I think you're right: TfL Rail was put on the tube map from December 2019.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: onthecushions on May 19, 2022, 09:36:06 pm

The Lizline opening day of 24th May is Queen Victoria's birthday, also, until 1957, Empire Day. It is still observed in Canada on the nearest Monday as a public holiday entitled "Victoria Day"

The Maple Leaf for Ever

OTC


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: infoman on May 24, 2022, 07:39:31 am
Sky news are reporting live from "Central London" on Tuesday morning news at 07:35am not sure where though in connection with opening of Crossrail.

BBC news are LIVE from Woolwich


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on May 24, 2022, 08:23:44 am
Sky news are reporting live from "Central London" on Tuesday morning news at 07:35am not sure where though in connection with opening of Crossrail.

BBC news are LIVE from Woolwich

BBC Radio 4 has a reporter ready to board a train.



The Maple Leaf for Ever

OTC

From a Spike Milligan book (probably "Adolf Hitler: My Part in his Downfall")

Canadian soldier: "Can you play the Maple Leaf Forever?"
Harry Edgington (pianist with Milligan's band): "Sorry, my hands get tired after an hour."


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on May 24, 2022, 06:14:06 pm
Reading this latest article (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/20157100.elizabeth-line-opening-not-finished--/) and watching the Meridian TV news coverage about Crossrail, I wonder if I'm missing something - or more than two somethings.

Some of the vox pops on the TV item still don't seem to realise that it takes an hour to get from Reading to Paddington, yet the reporter said that when Crossrail was fully open it would be possible to get from Reading to Central London in under an hour.

"Travellers boarding at Reading, Maidenhead and Slough will soon have access to more modern, less crowded trains, and some will have faster commutes." Haven't these trains been running for more than two years?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on May 24, 2022, 06:16:09 pm
As luck would have it, I had a meeting near Liverpool Street today... so an ideal opportunity to try the Lizzy Line on its first day.

It is fast. Really fast. Ten minutes from Paddington to Liverpool Street. (Presumably that'll be 11 or 12 once Bond Street opens.)

Because it's basically sub-surface at Paddington, access from the main platforms is really quick: just walk out the west side of the station, down a shallow escalator and you're on the platforms. Liverpool Street is obviously deeper, and further to walk.

The station architecture, at least the bits I saw, is efficient but unspectacular - much less flashy than the Jubilee Line Extension. But lots of space everywhere - platforms, halls, corridors. Clear information screens both in the trains and on the platforms, where they're positioned directly above the platform doors rather than crossways along the platform.

I can't help feeling this is going to have a big knock-on effect on the GWR network. The City (and Silicon Roundabout etc.) are now within 1hr30 of somewhere like Charlbury. Previously schlepping across town on the Circle Line (or walking to catch the Central) was slow and unreliable, making it a sensible commute only for the really dedicated. If you're working part-time from home, part-time from the office, this becomes a very attractive option.

(Now on the train home and I'm reminded how colossally GWR have screwed up demand management on the Cotswold Line. The 17.34 is a nine-carriage train and in our carriage (B) there were just seven passengers at Paddington. Many more joined at Reading. That is kind of an inevitable consequence of charging sky-high peak fares from Paddington, and not stopping the majority of the evening trains at Reading. There has to be a better way of doing it than this...)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 24, 2022, 06:55:42 pm
Why have almost all reports of this included that it is late and over its budget? No-one (else) has said that it was underbudgeted and promised too early. Isn't that as good a description of what happened - and arguably more accurate? After all the function of an estimate is to predict what will happen, so in this case the time and cost estimates (and thus the budget, based on that) were in error.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 24, 2022, 07:59:46 pm
Why have almost all reports of this included that it is late and over its budget? No-one (else) has said that it was underbudgeted and promised too early. Isn't that as good a description of what happened - and arguably more accurate? After all the function of an estimate is to predict what will happen, so in this case the time and cost estimates (and thus the budget, based on that) were in error.

Careful, or HS2 will offer you a job in their PR department!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on May 24, 2022, 10:14:15 pm
I used the line this morning 06:50 (ish) for every commuter there was 3 or 4 enthusiasts with a camera or phone videoing it.         

This afternoon not a camera videoing in sight 


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reading General on May 25, 2022, 07:48:23 am
Reading this latest article (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/20157100.elizabeth-line-opening-not-finished--/) and watching the Meridian TV news coverage about Crossrail, I wonder if I'm missing something - or more than two somethings.

Some of the vox pops on the TV item still don't seem to realise that it takes an hour to get from Reading to Paddington, yet the reporter said that when Crossrail was fully open it would be possible to get from Reading to Central London in under an hour.

"Travellers boarding at Reading, Maidenhead and Slough will soon have access to more modern, less crowded trains, and some will have faster commutes." Haven't these trains been running for more than two years?

This appears to have been the marketing from the start. It does seem that only those with knowledge of the railways know what the arrangement is, everyone else has been conned with misleading information about a new line for the entire 70 odd miles. The ‘new’ line the Thames valley is getting is the same one that’s been open since 1840. Yes, journey times once IN London have improved for those going there but the over the top hype about this project from the media and property companies has mostly been misleading, particularly for Reading as the journey times quoted, largely never mentioned that you’ll still be on the very same mainline trains you’ve been on for decades to achieve the advertised times. The real benefits to Reading are the same as they would be for Swindon, Bath, Bristol and anywhere else on the former Intercity routes from London Paddington. Cynical I know but I do dislike misinformation and the way things are marketed to be more than they perhaps are, particularly when it means I can no longer afford to live in the town I’m from.
This post is all just my opinion.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on May 25, 2022, 08:00:14 am

... Some of the vox pops on the TV item still don't seem to realise that it takes an hour to get from Reading to Paddington, yet the reporter said that when Crossrail was fully open it would be possible to get from Reading to Central London in under an hour...

The thought  occurs that since the 1970s and the introduction of HSTs it's been possible to get from Reading to Central London within an hour: 25 minutes to Paddington; 10-minutes walk and wait for Tube; 15 minutes to Oxford Circus.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Fourbee on May 25, 2022, 11:53:29 am
This just looks like a fudge to have a curtain raiser before the Jubilee; open... but in 3 parts (split at Paddington and Liverpool Street). So not really open then.

Running throughout by May 2023... that's got a Benson & Hedges calculation about it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reading General on May 25, 2022, 03:55:13 pm

... Some of the vox pops on the TV item still don't seem to realise that it takes an hour to get from Reading to Paddington, yet the reporter said that when Crossrail was fully open it would be possible to get from Reading to Central London in under an hour...

The thought  occurs that since the 1970s and the introduction of HSTs it's been possible to get from Reading to Central London within an hour: 25 minutes to Paddington; 10-minutes walk and wait for Tube; 15 minutes to Oxford Circus.

Not sure if the journey time has differed that much in the time but the Bakerloo line timetable suggests 8 minutes journey time on the train to Oxford Circus underground from Paddington underground. Obviously leaving the station takes a bit of time has the platforms at Oxford Circus seem to be half way down Regent Street towards Piccadilly. Which does make me wonder whether you could just fool people into walking large distances in underground tunnels instead of running trains. Anyone who’s ever used the lie of a tube entrance for South Kensington station on exhibition road by imperial college.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: didcotdean on May 25, 2022, 04:12:09 pm
With the planned full service in the peak there would be two services to/from Reading that would make just five intermediate stops (Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, West Drayton and Ealing Broadway). Although at around a 20 minute time disadvantage to Paddington compared with the non stop services, some might decide not having to change for their onward journey to be worth it. How many remains to be seen.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on May 25, 2022, 05:14:10 pm
With the planned full service in the peak there would be two services to/from Reading that would make just five intermediate stops (Twyford, Maidenhead, Slough, West Drayton and Ealing Broadway). Although at around a 20 minute time disadvantage to Paddington compared with the non stop services, some might decide not having to change for their onward journey to be worth it. How many remains to be seen.

I think a lot will, especially as the chance of a seat is high if you are staying on past Paddington. A lot of passengers will be getting off there for destinations other than Reading. You don't have to get off and board another train, which may cost you that time advantage if the second train doesn't leave within moments of you getting to the platform.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: paul7575 on May 25, 2022, 07:19:36 pm
…Which does make me wonder whether you could just fool people into walking large distances in underground tunnels instead of running trains. Anyone who’s ever used the lie of a tube entrance for South Kensington station on exhibition road by imperial college.
Ah, I did wonder why the original Tyne (pedestrian) Tunnel didn’t have any trains in it…  ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 25, 2022, 07:40:26 pm
…Which does make me wonder whether you could just fool people into walking large distances in underground tunnels instead of running trains. Anyone who’s ever used the lie of a tube entrance for South Kensington station on exhibition road by imperial college.
Ah, I did wonder why the original Tyne (pedestrian) Tunnel didn’t have any trains in it…  ;D

I do remember my Dad saying, as something commonly said earlier (i.e. 30s-50s), that having half of their passengers walking through a tunnel was how the Underground managed to cope with such large numbers.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reading General on May 25, 2022, 07:49:24 pm
Many don’t seem to notice how far they walk underground without landmarks, they do just follow the signs and the crowd. The same is true of how far people are willing to walk indoors in a shopping centre perhaps, or inside the barriers of stations. If you get off the last coach of a ten coach southern electric train at Reading the barriers are further away than Friar Street is from the same barriers.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Surrey 455 on May 25, 2022, 09:30:42 pm
The Evening Standard have noticed that a contactless journey from Reading to Tottenham Court Road is cheaper if you tap out then in again at Slough.

From London Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/elizabeth-line-commuters-save-money-tapping-contactless-journey-b1002064.html)
Quote
A peak time trip from Reading to Tottenham Court Road costs £28.50 for an adult tapping in and out using a contactless card, according to Transport for London’s Fare Finder.

However, a trip from Reading to Slough costs just £5.90 while Slough to Tottenham Court Road costs £11.80.

The loophole exists as prices switch between Transport for London (TfL) fares and National Rail fares at stations further outside the capital, according to the Telegraph.

This allows commuters to make a saving of £10.80 if they choose to tap in and out at Slough rather than travel directly from Reading.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on May 26, 2022, 06:17:19 am
The Evening Standard have noticed that a contactless journey from Reading to Tottenham Court Road is cheaper if you tap out then in again at Slough.

From London Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/elizabeth-line-commuters-save-money-tapping-contactless-journey-b1002064.html)
Quote
A peak time trip from Reading to Tottenham Court Road costs £28.50 for an adult tapping in and out using a contactless card, according to Transport for London’s Fare Finder.

However, a trip from Reading to Slough costs just £5.90 while Slough to Tottenham Court Road costs £11.80.

The loophole exists as prices switch between Transport for London (TfL) fares and National Rail fares at stations further outside the capital, according to the Telegraph.

This allows commuters to make a saving of £10.80 if they choose to tap in and out at Slough rather than travel directly from Reading.

It would mean a much much slower journey, there would not be enough time at Slough to get off of a train from Reading tap out allow the system to time out (anti fraud) and then get back on the same train, I guess for sum the the saving of £10.80 would be worth it


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 26, 2022, 06:49:35 am
The Evening Standard have noticed that a contactless journey from Reading to Tottenham Court Road is cheaper if you tap out then in again at Slough.

From London Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/elizabeth-line-commuters-save-money-tapping-contactless-journey-b1002064.html)
Quote
A peak time trip from Reading to Tottenham Court Road costs £28.50 for an adult tapping in and out using a contactless card, according to Transport for London’s Fare Finder.

However, a trip from Reading to Slough costs just £5.90 while Slough to Tottenham Court Road costs £11.80.

The loophole exists as prices switch between Transport for London (TfL) fares and National Rail fares at stations further outside the capital, according to the Telegraph.

This allows commuters to make a saving of £10.80 if they choose to tap in and out at Slough rather than travel directly from Reading.

It would mean a much much slower journey, there would not be enough time at Slough to get off of a train from Reading tap out allow the system to time out (anti fraud) and then get back on the same train, I guess for sum the the saving of £10.80 would be worth it

Given the frequency of the services it need only be about 20 mins slower - leave a bit earlier, get off at Slough, nip over the road to Starbucks and get a coffee, stroll back over to the station, tap back in and get on the train - for anyone who still commutes daily that's saving you £54 a week, well worth it!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reading General on May 26, 2022, 06:55:57 am
What a ridiculous rail system we have where stuff like this exists. High prices for those who don’t individually do the research. It’s 2022.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: GBM on May 26, 2022, 07:02:01 am
- for anyone who still commutes daily that's saving you £54 a week, well worth it!
Well, less the cost of the LARGE coffee (in my case, PLUS a roll of some sorts)  ;)



Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 26, 2022, 07:20:40 am
- for anyone who still commutes daily that's saving you £54 a week, well worth it!
Well, less the cost of the LARGE coffee (in my case, PLUS a roll of some sorts)  ;)



A forward roll will cost you nothing, but put the coffee down first, and being Slough, best check for unpleasant surprises on the pavement.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on May 26, 2022, 11:33:34 am
What a ridiculous rail system we have where stuff like this exists. High prices for those who don’t individually do the research. It’s 2022.

This just reflects the way GWR pricing has been for years. Contactless fares for the bit outwards of Paddington (which is most of the cost here) have been set at half the equivalent day return fare. For Reading-Paddington you can split at Slough: £11.80+£18.60 vs. £52.10 (anytime) saving £21.70. In this case you don't even need to get off!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: paul7575 on May 26, 2022, 11:37:29 am
What a ridiculous rail system we have where stuff like this exists. High prices for those who don’t individually do the research. It’s 2022.

This just reflects the way GWR pricing has been for years. Contactless fares for the bit outwards of Paddington (which is most of the cost here) have been set at half the equivalent day return fare. For Reading-Paddington you can split at Slough: £11.80+£18.60 vs. £52.10 (anytime) saving £21.70. In this case you don't even need to get off!
The media reporting seems intended to make out this is a new issue just this week, like the earlier misleading reports about Reading now being on the tube map…


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 26, 2022, 12:31:45 pm
I missed the opening day frenzy, but took a good look at the Elizabeth Line yesterday which was an overwhelmingly positive experience.  I thought I’d share my observations and thoughts.

I thought I’d also compare what the same journey experience through from Reading would have been like had I made the same journey a decade or so ago.  There is a lot of focus on when things go wrong, or where the service has become worse, than on the significant number of changes, both big and small, that have been made for the better which might have been forgotten about.

So, I set off from Reading late morning on a 9-car IET in electric mode that had come up from Cornwall.  Plenty of seats available towards the back, though the front looked a bit cosy.  Naturally I didn’t want to rely on a trolley service, which didn’t materialise, so had brought my coffee from the outlet on the platform.

A decade ago this would have been on a diesel powered HST and would have had a buffet car of course.  Though I suspect it would have been closed by the time I boarded for the final leg into Paddington and if it had of been open, by the time I’d walked to it and made my purchase there wouldn’t have been time to drink it anyway!

A decade ago the route from outside the station to platform would have been via the old cramped concourse and overbridge, which seemed busy even at the quiet times.


Arrival at Paddington was at Platform 3 and after heading down to the new Elizabeth Line station you’re immediately hit with how spacious and accessible everything is and how much safer the platform edge doors make things.  I decided to head first for Liverpool Street, using my contactless card to pay.

A decade ago I would have been heading to a cramped platform 16 via the narrow overbridge and gateline shared with anyone using platforms 10-14 as well and then using the one set of steps that led down to the platform – no fancy luxuries like lifts in those days!  Whilst I could have used my Oyster card, I would have needed to remember to ensure it was topped up of course.

The train itself pulled it and I reckon about 80 of us got on board, so plenty of room over the 9-car length of the train.  We departed and in ten minutes I had arrived at Liverpool Street, passing through Bond Street with its ‘new station’ and ‘opening soon’ labels on the roundels for a few months until it’s complete.  A VERY smooth ride in an air-conditioned train.

A decade ago my train would have been a 6-car ‘C’ stock train dating from the 70s.  No air-conditioning, a much worse ride, and a journey time of at least twice as long, maybe three times as long as time passed slowly by sat at Edgware Road.

Arriving at Liverpool Street and you’re in another large station with the two platforms connected at regular intervals with a main central corridor.  At one end two long escalators (and a little bit of a walk it has to be said) take you up to Liverpool Street station.  It’s clear how far underground the Elizabeth Line station has to be, to burrow under all the other existing lines and infrastructure.

I hadn’t realised, but the platforms at Liverpool Street station are SO long that if you go up the escalators at the other end, you end up at Moorgate station!  It’s clearly signposted, but I’m sure some people will be heading for connections at Liverpool Street mainline station and miss them because they’ve ended up taking the escalators up to Moorgate by mistake.

So, after a good look around I went back to the platform and got a train to Canary Wharf.  Another vast underground cavern of a station on two levels linked by escalators and lifts cleverly lit in canary yellow.

Next it was on to Custom House, one of only two stations on the route to Abbey Wood that is overground.  A much smaller, though still large, traditional station with the DLR station alongside it for ongoing connections.

Finally it was on to the terminus, Abbey Wood.  Two platforms for Elizabeth Line trains, with to adjacent platforms for SouthEastern trains offering connections to Dartford, Gravesend, Lewisham and Sidcup – along with Thameslink trains to Rainham via the Medway towns of Strood, Chatham, Rochester and Gillingham with their quarter of a million inhabitants.

One of the Abbey Wood Elizabeth Line platforms has a connection with the two through lines allowing a future expansion of services through to Gravesend via Dartford and Ebbsfleet without a major rebuild to the station. 

A quick loo stop at Abbey Wood (no toilets on the trains remember!) was needed before I headed back through to Paddington in under thirty minutes.  Throughout all these journeys every train ran punctually, virtually to the second, there were plenty of staff on hand, and I overheard plenty of praise and positivity coming from other passengers...and not a single negative comment.

Arriving at Paddington I decided to head back on one of the Elizabeth Line trains to Reading to complete the experience.  Another visit to the loo alongside Platform 12 where my 9-car train was waiting – I meant to check whether the Elizabeth Line part of the station had its own toilets but forgot.

A decade ago (well, just over actually!) platform 12 was a dingy place to get a train with plenty of artificial light instead of the natural light from Span 4 which in those days was boarded up blocking the light, creating a very poor impression of that part of Paddington station.  The toilets were on Platform 1 and not as nice and spacious…and of course you had to pay for the privilege of using them.

So, back to the train and plenty of seats, and I chose a longitudinal one to see what a long journey travelling sideways would feel like.  I could still get a good look at all the stations en-route, most of which now have nice large concourses, lifts, gatelines and more visible staff.  There was a ticket check shortly after West Drayton.

A decade ago this would probably have been a 3-car diesel Turbo (perhaps even a 2-car!).  No air-conditioning (or that worked anyway).  Larger stations we stopped at enroute like Ealing, Hayes and Southall had cramped concourses, few lifts and few staff.  Smaller stations were open to access by anyone, with a ticket or not, unless you were confined to a wheelchair when it was tough luck.  And ticket examinations were rarer than hen’s teeth!

I arrived back at Reading very pleased with what I saw and experienced.

Sure, I could chuck a few negatives in there.  We should have been up and running with this service several years ago, and it’s gone over budget.  You still can’t get direct from Ealing to Abbey Wood.  The ‘cleverly lit’ canary yellow lifts and escalators could easily be labelled a bit naff. 

A definite artwork fail is the glass roof at Paddington with its ‘pretend cloud’ finish that (when it is cloudy like yesterday) just looks like the window cleaners have left without finishing the job – perhaps it looks better under blue skies?

Then there are the free toilets at Paddington, but of course the old Turbo trains had free toilets on board which is the case no longer.  We also had a tissue seller on board from Ealing to West Drayton (though he was a very polite one).

Overall though?  Fantastic, transformative and modern.  Something for all Londoners to be proud of.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: paul7575 on May 26, 2022, 12:51:41 pm
Interesting point about Liverpool St & Moorgate.  I expect before long someone will enter and exit 10 mins later at the other end and be charged a fare for an underground walk.

I don’t know how the barrier lines will work collectively, because presumably a single station journey on the H&C or Circle is still valid as before.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Reading General on May 26, 2022, 01:02:29 pm
What a ridiculous rail system we have where stuff like this exists. High prices for those who don’t individually do the research. It’s 2022.

This just reflects the way GWR pricing has been for years. Contactless fares for the bit outwards of Paddington (which is most of the cost here) have been set at half the equivalent day return fare. For Reading-Paddington you can split at Slough: £11.80+£18.60 vs. £52.10 (anytime) saving £21.70. In this case you don't even need to get off!

Quite. The fact that all these arrangements still exist all over the network demonstrates what a poor railway it is with loopholes and discrepancies. We require a railway where everything is transparent on the price without having to shop around and do research. We require a railway which all works as one system rather than one with competitive pricing and operators. Instead, demonstrated by the misinformation over this vast project and the above fare arrangements, we still have a confusing railway that shows no signs of changing or moving on to become a simple, useable, affordable network for everyone to use for all journeys, without using apps and the internet to find what the best or cheapest way of doing things is. As far as I’m concerned, we’re getting transport wrong.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Mark A on May 26, 2022, 04:01:50 pm
Write up of some of the fares weirdness from MyLondon, here:

https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/crossrail-how-elizabeth-line-fares-24059991


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on May 26, 2022, 04:49:26 pm
"Mum who commutes to Burnham disappointed in Elizabeth Line launch" (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/crossrail-woman-who-commutes-burnham-24060077)

Seems quite a long article about not very much?

National Rail gives journey times between 96 and 113 minutes for Chadwell Heath to Burnham.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: bobm on May 26, 2022, 05:05:10 pm
I am going to echo much of what II has posted as I took a trip on the new line today.

My trip started at Paddington at 7.20am and got me back there at 9.45am.   Assuming the initial rush of enthusiasts has died down somewhat the trains were all busy but not uncomfortably so. 

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizsign.jpg)

Throughout signage is good and there are plenty of staff on hand to guide people through the system and answer questions.

As many have said, the first thing that strikes you is the space.  High ceilings, well lit and spacious concourses as soon as you enter the new station at Paddington.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizpad1.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizpad2.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizpad3.jpg)

Although not officially part of the Underground network, the trains do of course travel below the surface but there is none of the screeching, uneven ride or stuffy interiors associated with the tube.  We moved swiftly beneath the city before emerging to the east and the current terminus at Abbey Wood.

I will bet not many had heard of Abbey Wood until recently - other than it is the first station alphabetically in pick lists on journey planners.  Unlike Paddington where terminating trains go out to Westbourne Park before returning to form an eastbound service, trains here use one of two platforms alternately. 

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizabw.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/eliz\abw2.jpg)

With such a frequent service a departure board is almost superfluous, so much so that no one seemed to notice it was more than ten minutes out of date

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizdep.jpg)

All the stations are understandably clean but their exteriors do blend in well with their surroundings

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizcan1.jpg)

All the trains I caught ran on time and my journey to Abbey Wood and back (exiting at two stations) reached the daily cap of £11 on my Oyster card.  Very hard to criticise on the basis of one round trip and the only thing I did notice was on occasions the platform doors opened momentarily after the train doors and I did see a couple of people bump into the second set of doors as they started to exit.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizdoors.jpg)

The big plus for me is the new areas of London it opens up with an easy journey from Paddington.  I had a walk around the site of the old Woolwich Arsenal - where my grandfather worked - the Woolwich pier and Thames Clippers and Canary Wharf.  All within a couple of hours of leaving Swindon.

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizwool.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizwool2.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizwool3.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizwool4.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizcan2.jpg)

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/elizcan3.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: eightonedee on May 26, 2022, 05:42:01 pm
Quote
"Mum who commutes to Burnham disappointed in Elizabeth Line launch"

Seems quite a long article about not very much?

It's not the only Berkshire Live article on the Elizabeth Line about which that can be said.

There's a link to another one embedded in the article with the clickbait title "House prices explode in Slough, Reading and other Elizabeth line stations". Having recently retired from providing services to the housebuilding industry since the 1980s I thought I would check it out (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/property/elizabeth-line-house-prices-explode-24012349).

I do hope that the credulous readers of (or contributors to?) this site have not piled into investing in residential property beyond Burnham. The article quotes house price increases of 62% in Taplow, 61% in Maidenhead, 50% in Twyford and 62% in Reading between 2012 and 2021. For comparison, the Nationwide House Price indices for Greater London, Outer Metropolitan and Outer South-east increased by 67.7%, 65% and 66.5% respectively between the second quarter of 2012 and fourth quarter of 2021. So while Langley, Slough and Burnham have "won" with increases of 73%, 81%  and 75% respectively over the same period, it looks like the correct headline should be "Elizabeth Line has had no positive effect on house prices west of Burnham".

I'd rather read Industry Insider and BobM for informed views of the effect of the scheme!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: bobm on May 26, 2022, 05:51:09 pm
I'd rather read Industry Insider and BobM for informed views of the effect of the scheme!

Praise indeed, thank you.   I've just had a text from a friend though saying "I see you've posted your ramblings from today."!!  ???


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on May 26, 2022, 07:28:56 pm
"Mum who commutes to Burnham disappointed in Elizabeth Line launch" (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/crossrail-woman-who-commutes-burnham-24060077)

Seems quite a long article about not very much?


There's no pleasing some folk.


I'd rather read Industry Insider and BobM for informed views of the effect of the scheme!

Hear hear!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: bobm on May 26, 2022, 10:56:35 pm
I meant to add - if you are thinking of taking a trip on Saturdays 11th of June or 30th July; don’t.  Services between Paddington and Abbey Wood are suspended both days.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: infoman on May 30, 2022, 07:04:51 am
Would any one know what surcharge was levied on Buisness's and residents in the London area to part pay for cross rail?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on May 30, 2022, 09:34:09 am
A new and useful travel opportunity which I didn’t realise straight away is the Farringdon interchange between the EL and Thameslink, whose trains go to many destinations north and south of London.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: bradshaw on May 30, 2022, 09:57:18 am
One million journeys in just five days
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61629982


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on May 30, 2022, 07:27:17 pm
Would any one know what surcharge was levied on Buisness's and residents in the London area to part pay for cross rail?

A quick Google and -
"How will London’s businesses help fund Crossrail?
The Crossrail Business Rate Supplement (BRS) has been
used to finance £4.1 billion of the costs of the project. Of this,
around £3.3 billion has been borrowed with the remaining
£0.8 billion being funded directly using BRS revenues. It will
need to be levied until the GLA’s borrowing is repaid. This is
expected to be some time in the 2030s.
Does my business have to pay the Crossrail BRS?
Your rates bill makes clear if you are liable to pay the
BRS. Since April 2017 the Crossrail BRS is applied only to
assessments (for example business and other non domestic
premises) with a rateable value of over £70,000 on the local
rating lists of the 32 London boroughs and City of London
Corporation. Around 85 per cent of non domestic properties in
London will be exempt from the BRS in 2018-19 due to
this threshold.
How much do I pay if my property’s rateable value is
 above £70,000?
The Crossrail BRS multiplier for 2018-19 remains at 2p per
pound of rateable value. Reliefs for the Crossrail BRS will
apply on the same basis and at the same percentage rate as
for your National Non Domestic Rates (NNDR) bill. However,
no transitional relief is provided for the BRS.
"


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on May 30, 2022, 07:39:50 pm
A new and useful travel opportunity which I didn’t realise straight away is the Farringdon interchange between the EL and Thameslink, whose trains go to many destinations north and south of London.

When I was working on the Thameslink Programme (2012 to 2016) the journey opportunities became apparent to me then, EL to Thameslink Farringdon from there choices are going North Amsterdam and Paris via St Pancras,

just think Maidenhead to Paris 3 trains with only 2 changes  ;D or staying domestic Luton airport, Peterborough, Cambridge.  Going South Gatwick, Brighton, Maidstone.

Farringdon will become one of the busiest interchanges in London with its connections to Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton airports and Stanstead via Liverpool St add in all the Thameslink destinations. 

If we look forward 10 years when the HS2 Station at Old Oak Common is open Farringdon will see even more passengers heading for Gatwick, Luton and St Pancras


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: paul7575 on May 30, 2022, 07:52:29 pm
A new and useful travel opportunity which I didn’t realise straight away is the Farringdon interchange between the EL and Thameslink, whose trains go to many destinations north and south of London.

When I was working on the Thameslink Programme (2012 to 2016) the journey opportunities became apparent to me then, EL to Thameslink Farringdon from there choices are going North Amsterdam and Paris via St Pancras,

just think Maidenhead to Paris 3 trains with only 2 changes  ;D or staying domestic Luton airport, Peterborough, Cambridge.  Going South Gatwick, Brighton, Maidstone.

Farringdon will become one of the busiest interchanges in London with its connections to Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton airports and Stanstead via Liverpool St add in all the Thameslink destinations. 

If we look forward 10 years when the HS2 Station at Old Oak Common is open Farringdon will see even more passengers heading for Gatwick, Luton and St Pancras
I can see Farringdon being overwhelmed in time, if it becomes as popular as many people expect.
About 50-60% of the Thameslink platforms’ length are pretty much substandard against latest standards in terms of width, and at the north end they’re very narrow. 

Also, there’s those definite pinch points where the arches are supporting the listed LU station building.   

But incredibly difficult to fix at the north end, without widening the whole site. Probably missed the boat on that one…

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on June 01, 2022, 08:17:55 am
'I rode the Elizabeth Line from Shenfield to Reading and it was surprisingly brilliant' (https://www.getreading.co.uk/whats-on/reviews/i-rode-elizabeth-line-shenfield-24108142)

"The journey time from London Paddington was just a bit longer than 45 minutes."  Lily Morl arrived from Liverpool Street at Paddington at 0808, so presumably caught one of the very fewer semi-fast Crossrail trains?  Her overall journey seems to have taken three hours.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Bmblbzzz on June 01, 2022, 09:07:21 am
Quote
There are also glass screens at Liverpool Street station with digital ads keeping you somewhat entertained until the next train comes along.
Not my idea of entertainment.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on June 01, 2022, 12:45:24 pm
'I rode the Elizabeth Line from Shenfield to Reading and it was surprisingly brilliant' (https://www.getreading.co.uk/whats-on/reviews/i-rode-elizabeth-line-shenfield-24108142)

"The journey time from London Paddington was just a bit longer than 45 minutes."  Lily Morl arrived from Liverpool Street at Paddington at 0808, so presumably caught one of the very fewer semi-fast Crossrail trains?  Her overall journey seems to have taken three hours.

Well, up to a point ... but the "semi-slow" trains (the least-stopping ones on the relief lines) are only run by XR in the peak direction. The outbound ones in the morning peak are still GWR (387) services. So the fist train after 8:10 to Reading that could be said to take "a bit longer than 45 minutes" is actually the 8:57 (arr. 9:45)! (There is an 8:22 with the same stopping pattern, but for some reason it takes 55 minutes.) Still, that's in line with the general accuracy level of the article.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TonyK on June 01, 2022, 04:42:27 pm
Quote
There are also glass screens at Liverpool Street station with digital ads keeping you somewhat entertained until the next train comes along.
Not my idea of entertainment.

Mine neither. Call me old-fashioned, but I much prefer the sort of glass screen that shows SpongeBob SquarePants (https://youtu.be/r9L4AseD-aA)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on June 01, 2022, 07:54:28 pm
A new and useful travel opportunity which I didn’t realise straight away is the Farringdon interchange between the EL and Thameslink, whose trains go to many destinations north and south of London.

When I was working on the Thameslink Programme (2012 to 2016) the journey opportunities became apparent to me then, EL to Thameslink Farringdon from there choices are going North Amsterdam and Paris via St Pancras,

just think Maidenhead to Paris 3 trains with only 2 changes  ;D or staying domestic Luton airport, Peterborough, Cambridge.  Going South Gatwick, Brighton, Maidstone.

Farringdon will become one of the busiest interchanges in London with its connections to Heathrow, Gatwick, Luton airports and Stanstead via Liverpool St add in all the Thameslink destinations. 

If we look forward 10 years when the HS2 Station at Old Oak Common is open Farringdon will see even more passengers heading for Gatwick, Luton and St Pancras
I can see Farringdon being overwhelmed in time, if it becomes as popular as many people expect.
About 50-60% of the Thameslink platforms’ length are pretty much substandard against latest standards in terms of width, and at the north end they’re very narrow. 

Also, there’s those definite pinch points where the arches are supporting the listed LU station building.   

But incredibly difficult to fix at the north end, without widening the whole site. Probably missed the boat on that one…

Paul

The widening of the Thameslink platforms at Farringdon was discussed with the City of London, they were polite but very adamant in their response declining the idea


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Thatcham Crossing on June 03, 2022, 10:45:21 am
Took my first ride yesterday evening, Canary Wharf to Paddington, which took about 18 mins.

Quiet, smooth, fast, a bit of a non-event really - but I guess that's how it should be.

What came across also was the size of the stations, they are like enormous underground caverns.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on June 03, 2022, 06:01:02 pm
Took my first ride yesterday evening, Canary Wharf to Paddington, which took about 18 mins.

Quiet, smooth, fast, a bit of a non-event really - but I guess that's how it should be.
That was how it was designed and built ........... it is a utility

What came across also was the size of the stations, they are like enormous underground caverns.

That was the design intent and they are enormous underground caverns


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on June 03, 2022, 08:41:22 pm
The generously sized stations are indeed impressive, and should be future proof if passenger numbers continue to rise. Observe by contrast the overcrowded and congested conditions in older parts of the underground, that were presumably once adequate.

The only drawback of such large open areas is that they are vulnerable to bombs and shells, thinking here of air raids/artillery attacks, rather than small bombs carried by terrorists.
The deep tube stations were very valuable indeed during the last war and saved many lives. Current thinking is no doubt that there wont be another war. The people in Ukraine probably thought that.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on June 03, 2022, 09:19:13 pm
The generously sized stations are indeed impressive, and should be future proof if passenger numbers continue to rise. Observe by contrast the overcrowded and congested conditions in older parts of the underground, that were presumably once adequate.

I know it's only been a few days, but are the Central line, Bakerloo line and Circle and Hammersmith and City from Lancaster Gate and Paddington heading east still "overcrowded and congested"or has the Elizabeth Line abstracted excess passengers as it was supposed to do?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on June 03, 2022, 09:37:13 pm

The only drawback of such large open areas is that they are vulnerable to bombs and shells, thinking here of air raids/artillery attacks, rather than small bombs carried by terrorists.
The deep tube stations were very valuable indeed during the last war and saved many lives. Current thinking is no doubt that there wont be another war. The people in Ukraine probably thought that.

Very few structures are impervious to modern military ordinance.

As for terrorist IED the stations, along with other modern build / rebuild stations have measures built in to limit the effects from an IED blast.  The weird knowledge an electrical engineer picked up in the past when leading a multi discipline team involved in building stations ............... enough to make my head hurt


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 03, 2022, 11:07:04 pm
The generously sized stations are indeed impressive, and should be future proof if passenger numbers continue to rise. Observe by contrast the overcrowded and congested conditions in older parts of the underground, that were presumably once adequate.

I know it's only been a few days, but are the Central line, Bakerloo line and Circle and Hammersmith and City from Lancaster Gate and Paddington heading east still "overcrowded and congested"or has the Elizabeth Line abstracted excess passengers as it was supposed to do?

I use the Central Line two or three times a week and it's much quieter than I remember it.....suspect that's more due to people adopting new working practices than Crossrail though, but I guess in time more will transfer that way, especially when Bond Street opens.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on June 04, 2022, 05:09:38 am

Very few structures are impervious to modern military ordinance.

As for terrorist IED the stations, along with other modern build / rebuild stations have measures built in to limit the effects from an IED blast.  The weird knowledge an electrical engineer picked up in the past when leading a multi discipline team involved in building stations ............... enough to make my head hurt

The subsurface metro stations in Ukraine have given a useful degree of protection to the many sheltering therein.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 04, 2022, 11:22:55 am
The deep tube stations were very valuable indeed during the last war and saved many lives. Current thinking is no doubt that there wont be another war. The people in Ukraine probably thought that.

Given all the deep tube stations are still open, aren't all those 'facilities' still available in the event of war?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on June 04, 2022, 01:35:07 pm
The deep tube stations were very valuable indeed during the last war and saved many lives. Current thinking is no doubt that there wont be another war. The people in Ukraine probably thought that.

Given all the deep tube stations are still open, aren't all those 'facilities' still available in the event of war?

Yes, still open, and yes still available. BUT with a growing population more shelter space would be desirable.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 04, 2022, 01:52:21 pm
Yes, still open, and yes still available. BUT with a growing population more shelter space would be desirable.

How about the literal miles of space available in the Crossrail tunnels with their wide bore and walkways throughout?


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: broadgage on June 04, 2022, 05:13:36 pm
Yes, still open, and yes still available. BUT with a growing population more shelter space would be desirable.

How about the literal miles of space available in the Crossrail tunnels with their wide bore and walkways throughout?

We may yet be glad of that.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: froome on June 06, 2022, 06:05:11 pm
I had my first journey on the Elizabeth line at the weekend, from Paddington to Canary Wharf, and as others have said, it is impressively efficient, and has obviously made that journey very much quicker than it would have taken before.

However, there was one very big downside to my journey, which I'll post on a new thread now.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on June 08, 2022, 06:28:27 pm
Elizabeth Line trains start running to Heathrow T4 from 14th June (next Tuesday). T4 itself will open progressively, with airlines transferring over the next few weeks. In fact shuttles are running between Central and T4, presumably for staff use as officially they aren't. From Tuesday, the EL trains from Paddington will split equally between T4 and T5, which initially means only 2 tph to T4 and (as now) to T5.

The currently loaded WTT says that from 8th August the through trains to T4 stop, and the service reverts to as now, with shuttles. I imagine that's an artefact of the data feeds.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on June 09, 2022, 11:03:38 am
"House prices on Elizabeth Line expected to soar with increased demand." (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/20196535.house-prices-elizabeth-line-expected-soar-increased-demand/) The soar seems to be inexorable! Still, the views expressed are those of Rightmove’s "director of property science", so they must be valid.



Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on June 26, 2022, 05:53:45 pm
"Why Elizabeth Line trains are rammed at the front and back but the middle is always empty" (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/elizabeth-line-trains-rammed-front)

This "phenomenon" has long existed on Tube trains, such as on the Bakerloo at Paddington, where in my commuting days passengers would go on to the platform at the more-or-less central point and cluster there, then crowd onto the middle of the train. I would squeeze past them and stroll down the platform to join the last carriage (which, TBH, was the best one from which to exit at Lambeth North).


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: didcotdean on June 26, 2022, 07:00:38 pm
Paddington is kind of an exception to this if connecting to/from the Bakerloo as you actually want to be in the middle.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Surrey 455 on June 26, 2022, 07:04:48 pm
Paddington is kind of an exception to this if connecting to/from the Bakerloo as you actually want to be in the middle.

I used to find that there was a better chance of a seat in the rear carriage(s) on southbound Bakerloo line trains at Paddington.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 26, 2022, 09:42:20 pm
I used to find that there was a better chance of a seat in the rear carriage(s) on southbound Bakerloo line trains at Paddington.

Certainly the case for the ones that have started only a few stops up the line at Queens Park.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on July 16, 2022, 07:28:37 pm
Something happened this afternoon, which you might call another real-world learning opportunity. Trains both ways stopped for half an hour just after 4 pm. The earliest evidence I can see is that 9Y32 from Abbey Wood got to Custom House on time and was never recorded as leaving. It is flagged as part-cancelled "This service was cancelled between Custom House and London Paddington due to a delay caused on a non-Network Rail line (TX)."


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: stuving on July 17, 2022, 12:14:58 am
Something happened this afternoon, which you might call another real-world learning opportunity. Trains both ways stopped for half an hour just after 4 pm. The earliest evidence I can see is that 9Y32 from Abbey Wood got to Custom House on time and was never recorded as leaving. It is flagged as part-cancelled "This service was cancelled between Custom House and London Paddington due to a delay caused on a non-Network Rail line (TX)."

This appears to be their standard response to a failed train, if it's still mobile, at this point. Obviously the trains following it all stopped very soon, and after a couple had passed the other way the next one (9U30) was held at Canary Wharf. That allowed the failed train to move forward a short distance and use the crossover, then reverse and exit the core to Abbey Wood. By now the tunnel behind it, and Abbey Wood's two platforms, were full. But with the failed train moved those blocked trains could get going again. The ex-9Y32 (ID unknown) went to the depot at Plumstead, for which the reversal happens in ABW station. But it would have to queue to get out of the tunnel at all, as the tailback extended that far.

Having a train fail on the line to the depot will be interesting - there's no flexibility and almost no alternative route around that. You do wonder why it was built like that.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Electric train on July 17, 2022, 08:35:25 am
Something happened this afternoon, which you might call another real-world learning opportunity. Trains both ways stopped for half an hour just after 4 pm. The earliest evidence I can see is that 9Y32 from Abbey Wood got to Custom House on time and was never recorded as leaving. It is flagged as part-cancelled "This service was cancelled between Custom House and London Paddington due to a delay caused on a non-Network Rail line (TX)."

This appears to be their standard response to a failed train, if it's still mobile, at this point. Obviously the trains following it all stopped very soon, and after a couple had passed the other way the next one (9U30) was held at Canary Wharf. That allowed the failed train to move forward a short distance and use the crossover, then reverse and exit the core to Abbey Wood. By now the tunnel behind it, and Abbey Wood's two platforms, were full. But with the failed train moved those blocked trains could get going again. The ex-9Y32 (ID unknown) went to the depot at Plumstead, for which the reversal happens in ABW station. But it would have to queue to get out of the tunnel at all, as the tailback extended that far.

Having a train fail on the line to the depot will be interesting - there's no flexibility and almost no alternative route around that. You do wonder why it was built like that.

It was built "Tube" style. 

I wonder why the unit was not allowed to proceed ECS from the point it failed to OOC depot, if it was not a dead unit that needed to be rescued


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on July 22, 2022, 09:38:37 am
"Passengers using Elizabeth Line falling down escalators." (https://www.getreading.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/passengers-using-elizabeth-line-falling-24523221)

"'There was a whole series of minor incidents, but very minor, at Paddington shortly after opening.' However, he explained there were not any particularly noticeable or worrying trends in terms of passenger safety incidents in the first month of opening."

I've never been very comfortable stepping onto an escalator at top or bottom,matters not being helped by an inner-ear op in 1996 that affected my balance for several years. At Reading Station I always prefer to use the stairs where possible. On a visit to the town earlier this year, I found I was more uncomfortable than before on the short escalators in the Oracle. An age thing, and in a way it was reassuring when a friend and his wife recently"toured" Crossrail and admitted to also feeling uneasy on busy escalators. (He's a volunteer on the Romney, Hythe & Dymchurch Railway, where that sort of problem doesn't exist.)


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on July 27, 2022, 08:52:45 pm
Crossrail's fake destinations (https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/elizabeth-line-trains-fake-destinations-24341495)

Another non-story on local news media. Ealing Broadway is hardly a "fake destination" as Crossrail trains do stop there. And the same helpful "trick" was used pre-Lockdown by FGW stopping services with the destination boards at Reading suggesting that  Ealing Broadway was the terminus. It probably still is -I've gone no further east than Maidenhead for 30 months.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Surrey 455 on July 27, 2022, 09:53:12 pm
Crossrail's fake destinations (https://www.mylondon.news/lifestyle/travel/elizabeth-line-trains-fake-destinations-24341495)

Another non-story on local news media. Ealing Broadway is hardly a "fake destination" as Crossrail trains do stop there. And the same helpful "trick" was used pre-Lockdown by FGW stopping services with the destination boards at Reading suggesting that  Ealing Broadway was the terminus. It probably still is -I've gone no further east than Maidenhead for 30 months.

FGW / GWR and probably Thames Trains also used to advertise stopping trains from Paddington to Reading as terminating at Twyford. No idea if TfL still do that.

Well I suppose it makes a change from these "journalists" visiting pubs and restaurants and writing "You won't believe how awesome my meal was"


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: paul7575 on July 27, 2022, 11:23:17 pm
A shout out for up direction SWT/SWR stoppers from Poole, advertised at Brockenhurst and Southampton Parkway as terminating at Farnborough, (rather than Waterloo), because they get overtaken.

This is a standard practice that’s been used for quite some time.

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: grahame on July 28, 2022, 07:27:54 am

FGW / GWR and probably Thames Trains also used to advertise stopping trains from Paddington to Reading as terminating at Twyford.


Yeah ... damned if they do and damned if they don't.

I recall catching a "Twyford" train at Paddington a few years back - with plenty of time to make the slow journey to Reading and connect onto a an express to Swindon to connect to Melksham.  Problem was it turned out to really be a Twyford terminator, and I stood on the platform at Twyford for the best part of half an hour and watched my Swindon train rush past.

On the other  hand, standing in the ticket office in Motherwell and seeing multiple departures to "Glasgow Central", with two trains leaving at the same time sometimes too, is not exactly helpful to informing unfamiliar passengers how to get to the city quickest!


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on July 28, 2022, 12:10:22 pm
About forty years ago I unwittingly boarded a "Twyford" train at Paddington, realised my mistake and got off at Twyford. The train continued towards Reading. I wonder if I'd stayed on it whether I could have got off at a platform in Reading - in those days of course passengers could open the doors for themselves.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: PrestburyRoad on July 28, 2022, 12:33:00 pm
Back in the days of loco-hauled slam-door stock and no digital screens, I remember standing at the western end of island platform 10/11 at Birmingham New Street, wondering which of the two delayed trains at those platforms would depart first to get me to its first stop of Cheltenham.  The train crews weren't sure either and they like me were waiting to see which signal turned green first.  One of the signals duly turned green and I jumped onto that train.  It made me think of the 'wild' travelling from Waterloo described in Three Men in a Boat.


Title: Re: Crossrail - a new railway for London
Post by: Marlburian on August 04, 2022, 10:09:26 am
"Elizabeth Line property scheme fraudsters jailed for £13m scam": Reading & Berkshire News (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/elizabeth-line-property-scheme-fraudsters-24665073)



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