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Journey by Journey => Transport for London => Topic started by: grahame on November 08, 2019, 12:32:11 pm



Title: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on November 08, 2019, 12:32:11 pm
I'm sure I'll be merging this topic later on with previous "Crossrail delay" threads ... but noting that I'm the first to post here ... perhaps a delay is not news any more.  A major project on time WOULD be.

Quote
The opening of London's Crossrail project will be delayed until 2021 as Europe's biggest infrastructure scheme is set to go another £650m over budget.

The route, to be known as the Elizabeth Line, was originally due to open in December 2018.

Crossrail Ltd chief executive Mark Wild said services would be delayed to allow time for more testing.

Wonder if they will make 2021  :o  :-\  :-[

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50345344


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 08, 2019, 05:51:44 pm
I'm sure I'll be merging this topic later on with previous "Crossrail delay" threads ... but noting that I'm the first to post here ... perhaps a delay is not news any more.  A major project on time WOULD be.

Quote
The opening of London's Crossrail project will be delayed until 2021 as Europe's biggest infrastructure scheme is set to go another £650m over budget.

The route, to be known as the Elizabeth Line, was originally due to open in December 2018.

Crossrail Ltd chief executive Mark Wild said services would be delayed to allow time for more testing.

Wonder if they will make 2021  :o  :-\  :-[

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-50345344

Pennies compared to HS2, but hey it's a rail scheme so we have come to expect massive delays and overspends.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on January 01, 2020, 07:45:54 am
Someone has c*cked up a press release ... at 00:06 this morning, on the news feeds an old article from 31st August 2018.   Oops!

http://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/elizabeth-line-services-through-central-london-to-start-in-2019

Welcome to 2020, a whole decade prepared for new bloopers!


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: eightonedee on January 01, 2020, 08:54:37 am
Credit where credit is due Grahame.

They did remember to update the year on the copyright date at the foot of the page
!



Happy New Year all!


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: CyclingSid on January 01, 2020, 12:16:58 pm
Crossrail have been quoted in the media today as saying it will finish on time and on budget. It isn't April 1st is it? (Sorry should be the season of goodwill)


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Marlburian on March 20, 2020, 12:27:13 pm
So much has changed since then!

'Inevitable' impact on Crossrail project from coronavirus, say London mayor (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/18320945.inevitable-impact-crossrail-project-coronavirus-say-london-mayor/)

How many of the infrastructure projects announced in the Budget will go ahead - and how will they be funded?


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on March 24, 2020, 03:19:01 pm
So much has changed since then!

'Inevitable' impact on Crossrail project from coronavirus, say London mayor (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/18320945.inevitable-impact-crossrail-project-coronavirus-say-london-mayor/)

How many of the infrastructure projects announced in the Budget will go ahead - and how will they be funded?

and further ... from myLondon (https://www.mylondon.news/news/west-london-news/london-coronavirus-crossrail-works-suspended-17971371)

Quote
The construction of Crossrail has been temporarily suspended in response to the government announcing a lockdown.

The project, which began in 2009, is a 73-mile new railway line stretching from Shenfield in Essex to Reading, Berkshire.

The decision to suspend the building of the line is due to the risk workers face catching and/or passing on the deadly illness, Covid-19.

On Monday evening (March 23), Prime Minister Boris Johnson made the announcement that citizens' movements will be severely restricted over the next three weeks due to the rapid spread of coronavirus.

Despite Johnson not specifically mentioning construction workers, a debate has been raging since the lockdown announcement on whether construction workers should be staying at home.

Sadiq Khan, the London Mayor has prioritised making the London Underground available for key workers at hospitals and in social services.

Mike Brown, London's Transport Commissioner, said: "The Government and the Mayor have given clear instructions to stay safe and to stop travelling in all cases other than critical workers making absolutely essential journeys.

"In line with this, TfL and Crossrail will be bringing all project sites to a temporary Safe Stop unless they need to continue for operational safety reasons.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: SandTEngineer on April 07, 2020, 09:29:45 am
ETCS Testing successfully completed.  From Railway Gazette:  https://www.railwaygazette.com/uk/etcs-tested-successfully-on-heathrow-express-class-387s/56178.article

However, there are apparently still some issues to resolve with the TPWS Interface......

Quote
ETCS tested successfully on Heathrow Express Class 387s

An initial series of test runs using Class 387 EMUs equipped with ETCS on the Great Western Main Line has been completed, leasing company Porterbrook announced on April 3.

Using sections of the GWML east of Reading and the branch from Hayes & Harlington to Heathrow Airport, the tests were undertaken by Porterbrook and partners Bombardier, the Department for Transport, DB Cargo UK and Heathrow Airport Ltd. More than 10 test runs over the weekend of March 21-22 were undertaken to prove the functionality of the onboard hardware and software as well as related infrastructure assets.

A dedicated fleet of 12 four-car Class 387 EMUs is to be redeployed by operator Great Western Railway from Thames Valley commuter services to the airport shuttle. The trains are currently being refurbished by manufacturer Bombardier at its Ilford depot, where they are receiving bespoke interiors tailored to the needs of airport passengers.

Once ETCS Level 2 has been commissioned on the branch between Hayes & Harlington and the airport, expected later this year, the Class 387s will replace the Class 332 trainsets which have been used since the inception of Heathrow Express in 1998.

The Heathrow Express service is owned and managed by Heathrow Airport Ltd and is not part of the national franchising system. However, the airport company has outsourced train operations to GWR under a management contract running from 2018 to 2028. The Class 387 fleet will be maintained by GWR at its Reading depot.

‘Notwithstanding these challenging times, we need to continue focusing on delivering key projects so that the railway is ready to support UK plc when the current situation stabilises’, said Mary Grant, Chief Executive of Porterbrook. ‘Introduction of an ETCS-fitted fleet on services to Heathrow is just such a project and will enable a service uplift to meet expected passenger numbers when the airport returns to its role as a key European aviation hub.’


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 12, 2020, 08:04:47 am
ETCS Levels 0, 1 and 2 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

Edited to amend to ETCS Levels 0, 1 and 2


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on May 12, 2020, 08:18:35 am
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

I assume, dangerously for an E&P Engineer  ;D Level 3 is initially for the Crossrail tunnel sections?


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on May 12, 2020, 08:38:35 am
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

Thank you.  As a retired hotelier and computer programmer, I struggle to understand any of it.   However, I note odd gems in an ore of incomprehensibility.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: paul7575 on May 12, 2020, 10:52:33 am
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

I assume, dangerously for an E&P Engineer  ;D Level 3 is initially for the Crossrail tunnel sections?

AIUI the TfL core infrastructure actually uses a different Communications-based train control (CBTC) system, either because they didn’t expect ETCS to have reached the necessary functionality before Crossrail commissioning started, or IMHO they decided to have a permanent obstacle to attempts to run other trains through the tunnels. 

I believe they had to jump through quite a few hoops to avoid ETCS in their core section, being a new railway and in scope of The Technical Specifications for Interoperability (TSIs).

Paul

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: paul7575 on May 12, 2020, 11:12:27 am
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)
I see it actually refers to ETCS Levels 0,1 and 2 though?  Somewhere in the depths of the document it says Level 3 is not included.  (Is that full physical removal of lineside train detection and signals?)

Paul


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 12, 2020, 12:18:55 pm
ETCS Levels 1, 2 and 3 for use by Class 345 trains now approved by ORR: https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/42879/interoperability-authorisation-class-345-ccs-tsi-2020-05-06.pdf

Health Warning: Even as an S&T Engineer I have struggled to understand some of it  ::)

I assume, dangerously for an E&P Engineer  ;D Level 3 is initially for the Crossrail tunnel sections?

AIUI the TfL core infrastructure actually uses a different CBTC system, either because they didn’t expect ETCS to have reached the necessary functionality before Crossrail commissioning started, or IMHO they decided to have a permanent obstacle to attempts to run other trains through the tunnels. 

I believe they had to jump through quite a few hoops to avoid ETCS in their core section, being a new railway and in scope of TSIs.

Paul

Yes, my schoolboy error.  I should have said Levels 0, 1 and 2 which will be utilised on the shared railway sections.  As I understand it either Level 2 or 3 will be used on the Core Section not used by other trains (well, not for a very long time at least).  The different Levels are explained here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Train_Control_System

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on May 12, 2020, 02:35:32 pm

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P

ETCS Level 0 ???    If you added ATC would that make it level 1?

I ask as a baffled E&P Engineer


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 12, 2020, 09:23:21 pm

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P

ETCS Level 0 ???    If you added Automatic Train Control (ATC) would that make it level 1?

I ask as a baffled E&P Engineer

Yes it would, but it would need to be the Great Western Railway (GWR) version of Automatic Train Control (ATC) ;D

Edit: VickiS - Clarifying Acronym


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on May 13, 2020, 07:08:34 am

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P

ETCS Level 0 ???    If you added ATC would that make it level 1?

I ask as a baffled E&P Engineer

Yes it would, but it would need to be the GWR version of ATC ;D

Is there any other,  can just see a 44' 3" ramp would work at 125 mph

Interesting document on the GWR ATC here https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&ved=2ahUKEwjV6_iAlbDpAhWbVBUIHcGIACIQFjASegQIBBAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmweb.co.uk%2Fcommunity%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dattach%26section%3Dattach%26attach_id%3D953953&usg=AOvVaw1NVyPmiY3fex5c6T9LydM8&cshid=1589349951811925


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Oxonhutch on May 13, 2020, 08:34:43 am
Is there any other,  can just see a 44' 3" ramp would work at 125 mph

Just under a quarter second should be enough, shouldn't it?  ;D

Although reading the attached article, the effective length is only 25'8" so 140 milliseconds might be a bit tight!


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 13, 2020, 08:38:31 am

Appologies for that error, but my excuse is that when I posted the update I was sitting at my desk at home trying to work out some changes to the mechanical interlocking on an hi-tech GWR 1908 pattern lever frame..... ::) :P

ETCS Level 0 ???    If you added ATC would that make it level 1?

I ask as a baffled E&P Engineer

Yes it would, but it would need to be the GWR version of ATC ;D

Is there any other,  can just see a 44' 3" ramp would work at 125 mph

Interesting document on the GWR ATC here https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=19&ved=2ahUKEwjV6_iAlbDpAhWbVBUIHcGIACIQFjASegQIBBAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.rmweb.co.uk%2Fcommunity%2Findex.php%3Fapp%3Dcore%26module%3Dattach%26section%3Dattach%26attach_id%3D953953&usg=AOvVaw1NVyPmiY3fex5c6T9LydM8&cshid=1589349951811925

Yes, it could be done with coded track circuits like the original 1968 Victoria tube line. Level 1 is nothing new.. ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 17, 2020, 08:10:55 pm
Latest Update: https://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-project-update


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 17, 2020, 08:14:55 pm
Latest Update: https://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-project-update

Does that represent a further delay?


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on May 17, 2020, 08:18:17 pm
Latest Update: https://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/crossrail-project-update

Does that represent a further delay?

No, it reads almost the same as January's update.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 18, 2020, 08:51:48 am
I picked out this snippet:

Quote
Each Elizabeth line station has over 50 km of communications cabling, 200 CCTV cameras, 66 information displays, 200 radio antennas, 750 loudspeakers and 50 help points. All this technology needs to be fully installed, tested and integrated.

 :P


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on May 18, 2020, 09:19:54 am
I picked out this snippet:

Quote
Each Elizabeth line station has over 50 km of communications cabling, 200 CCTV cameras, 66 information displays, 200 radio antennas, 750 loudspeakers and 50 help points. All this technology needs to be fully installed, tested and integrated.

 :P

750 loudspeakers at places like Taplow may lead to complaints of noise nuisance from nearby housing, might it not?


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: SandTEngineer on May 18, 2020, 09:29:41 am
I picked out this snippet:

Quote
Each Elizabeth line station has over 50 km of communications cabling, 200 CCTV cameras, 66 information displays, 200 radio antennas, 750 loudspeakers and 50 help points. All this technology needs to be fully installed, tested and integrated.

 :P

750 loudspeakers at places like Taplow may lead to complaints of noise nuisance from nearby housing, might it not?

I think they are speaking of the central section stations (pun intended) ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on May 18, 2020, 01:47:27 pm
I've been in one of the Contractors Lab / development area.  It would be complex in its self if it was just one company supply systems but its not.  There are large companies who are normally in cut throat competition with each other have to work collaboratively.

One concern they have (and they are a the UK part of Germany company) is the free flow of information and engineers after the 31st Dec 2020, whilst it will not stop progress may be slowed down


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 19, 2020, 07:06:52 am
I picked out this snippet:

Quote
Each Elizabeth line station has over 50 km of communications cabling, 200 CCTV cameras, 66 information displays, 200 radio antennas, 750 loudspeakers and 50 help points. All this technology needs to be fully installed, tested and integrated.

 :P

750 loudspeakers at places like Taplow may lead to complaints of noise nuisance from nearby housing, might it not?

Depends who's singing.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on July 24, 2020, 01:25:49 pm
From The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/23/crossrail-opening-delayed-again-due-to-coronavirus)

Quote
The heavily delayed Crossrail will not open as planned in summer 2021 because of delays caused by coronavirus, its board has said.

The troubled railway, from Berkshire to Essex via central London, was originally expected to open in December 2018 but repeated delays have pushed it back.

On Thursday evening, Crossrail said: “A programme of this scale and complexity was already challenging, the impact of Covid-19 has clearly made the existing pressures more acute.

“Due to a pause of physical activity on sites and significant constraints on ongoing work – time has been lost, only some of which can be recovered.

“The opening of the central section between Paddington and Abbey Wood next summer, as announced earlier this year prior to Covid-19, is not achievable.”

Crossrail did not provide a new date for when the railway line, to be called the Elizabeth line, was now expected to be open, but said that a “more comprehensive update” would be issued in due course.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: didcotdean on August 21, 2020, 04:17:43 pm
Central portion now first half of 2022 on "best available programme information right now".

https://www.crossrail.co.uk/news/articles/update-following-crossrail-board-august-2020

Implies through running December 2022. Maybe ...


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 21, 2020, 04:45:16 pm
On this occasion at least a much more plausible reason.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 21, 2020, 06:35:56 pm
"Rail project runs years behind schedule and way over budget".......who'd have thought it? 🤦‍♂️


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on August 22, 2020, 08:05:26 am
"Rail project runs years behind schedule and way over budget".......who'd have thought it? 🤦‍♂️

There is a reason ..........  ;D

Railway Engineers over the las 2 centauries have learnt to tell the Politicians and their supporting Civil Servants what they want to hear they not like hearing the accurate facts; so the Railway Engineers knowing something will take 10 years to build will agree with the Politicians and Civil Servants who want it done in 8. 

The UK works in a 4 year political cycle - 6 months post election to get their act together, 2 years euphoria try to meet their manifesto and then 2 years try to set themselves up for the next general election and then year 5 of the Parliament is electioneering.

In reality things get achieved in the first 2 1/2 years, nothing controversial gets done in the next 2.

Where as Railway Engineering has a 20+ year plan


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 22, 2020, 10:59:01 am
"Rail project runs years behind schedule and way over budget".......who'd have thought it? 🤦‍♂️

There is a reason ..........  ;D

Railway Engineers over the las 2 centauries have learnt to tell the Politicians and their supporting Civil Servants what they want to hear they not like hearing the accurate facts; so the Railway Engineers knowing something will take 10 years to build will agree with the Politicians and Civil Servants who want it done in 8. 

The UK works in a 4 year political cycle - 6 months post election to get their act together, 2 years euphoria try to meet their manifesto and then 2 years try to set themselves up for the next general election and then year 5 of the Parliament is electioneering.

In reality things get achieved in the first 2 1/2 years, nothing controversial gets done in the next 2.

Where as Railway Engineering has a 20+ year plan

Interesting anecdote - I'd love to see the evidence!

Does the same philosophy apply to costs? "Yes of course we can deliver HS2 for £36 billion!"  ::)



Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2020, 12:29:52 pm
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 22, 2020, 06:14:14 pm
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 22, 2020, 06:30:19 pm
Yes indeed, they’ve put an awful lot of effort into trying to stop the HS2 project over the years.  So far to no avail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on August 23, 2020, 09:44:28 am
"Rail project runs years behind schedule and way over budget".......who'd have thought it? 🤦‍♂️

There is a reason ..........  ;D

Railway Engineers over the las 2 centauries have learnt to tell the Politicians and their supporting Civil Servants what they want to hear they not like hearing the accurate facts; so the Railway Engineers knowing something will take 10 years to build will agree with the Politicians and Civil Servants who want it done in 8. 

The UK works in a 4 year political cycle - 6 months post election to get their act together, 2 years euphoria try to meet their manifesto and then 2 years try to set themselves up for the next general election and then year 5 of the Parliament is electioneering.

In reality things get achieved in the first 2 1/2 years, nothing controversial gets done in the next 2.

Where as Railway Engineering has a 20+ year plan

Interesting anecdote - I'd love to see the evidence!

Does the same philosophy apply to costs? "Yes of course we can deliver HS2 for £36 billion!"  ::)



Yes because time to build equates to cost, you can never tell a politician and civil servant taht yes we can build it in half the time but it will cost twice as much

This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2

I think it says a lot about how UK PLC goes about its public work, there is still the Victorian philosophy that private finance should be raised with no State funding


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: ellendune on August 23, 2020, 05:18:57 pm
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2

The taxpayers alliance is a shadowy extreme right wing lobby group whose funding is a closely guarded secret.  I am not sure how much weight I would put on any so called research they publish. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 24, 2020, 06:54:10 am
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2

The taxpayers alliance is a shadowy extreme right wing lobby group whose funding is a closely guarded secret.  I am not sure how much weight I would put on any so called research they publish. 

Right wing for sure, but describing the Taxpayers Alliance as "Shadowy Extreme right wing" puts them in the same bracket as neo Nazi groups which is a little silly, although I get that it's being used pejoratively.

Messenger shooting aside however, which data/findings from the report cited by II are you challenging exactly?

Much of it seems to come from HM Treasury commissioned studies, the NAO and the like.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: ellendune on August 24, 2020, 08:19:35 am
Much of it seems to come from HM Treasury commissioned studies, the NAO and the like.

The number of references to other taxpayers alliance report is notable.  I would not trust the references to NAO reports without checking whether they had properly used the evidence in those reports.

Right wing for sure, but describing the Taxpayers Alliance as "Shadowy Extreme right wing" puts them in the same bracket as neo Nazi groups which is a little silly, although I get that it's being used pejoratively.

How would you describe an organisation that has seems to be well funded but does not say where it comes from and puts forward ultra right wing libertarian economic views similar to the extreme right in the USA? Indeed it has been shown to have links to such organisations. Like them they also oppose policies designed to combat climate change. 

I am not saying there is no truth in anything they write, but I would consider what they say with extreme caution. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 24, 2020, 09:15:55 am
I did consider whether I should post a link to a Taxpayers Alliance report as I’ve been critical of them before and I was fairly confident TG wouldn’t be able to stop himself from picking up his HS2 bone again.

I decided I would as it seemed to be one of their more balanced pieces, and demonstrated that whilst the railways are probably the worst offender when it comes to overspending and delays on initial major project costs, they are by no means alone. 

Some of the projects, such as the primary school refurbishment one, I’d never even heard of.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on August 24, 2020, 09:43:14 am
I did consider whether I should post a link to a Taxpayers Alliance report as I’ve been critical of them before and I was fairly confident TG wouldn’t be able to stop himself from picking up his HS2 bone again.

I decided I would as it seemed to be one of their more balanced pieces, and demonstrated that whilst the railways are probably the worst offender when it comes to overspending and delays on initial major project costs, they are by no means alone. 

Some of the projects, such as the primary school refurbishment one, I’d never even heard of.

The ability to acknowledge that organisations with which you don't generally agree can on occasions be correct or at least add value is a sign of a strong intellect II, (and on that basis I'll forgive the ad hominem, which detracts from it!) 😉


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on October 02, 2020, 08:05:16 pm
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-54386721)

Quote
London's Crossrail project will be "shut down" without an additional ?1.1bn, transport bosses have said.

Papers from a Transport for London (TfL) finance committee meeting say the issue has become "increasingly critical" as the project "will soon have committed all of its funds".

The route - known as the Elizabeth Line - was initially due to open in December 2018 but has faced numerous delays.

TfL said discussions about funding were taking place with the government.

In July, the Crossrail board said the line's central section, from Paddington to Abbey Wood, was not expected to be ready until "the first half of 2022" while more funding could also be needed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on October 03, 2020, 10:39:34 am
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-54386721)

Quote
London's Crossrail project will be "shut down" without an additional ?1.1bn, transport bosses have said.

Papers from a Transport for London (TfL) finance committee meeting say the issue has become "increasingly critical" as the project "will soon have committed all of its funds".

The route - known as the Elizabeth Line - was initially due to open in December 2018 but has faced numerous delays.

TfL said discussions about funding were taking place with the government.

In July, the Crossrail board said the line's central section, from Paddington to Abbey Wood, was not expected to be ready until "the first half of 2022" while more funding could also be needed.

I guess in the "new normal" there's a discussion to be had about whether it's still justifiable to be pouring more and more money into a scheme for which demand is likely to be far lower than was originally anticipated, but notwithstanding that, the financial situation and delays are ridiculous.

Nice trains though, and TfL have given Taplow a much enhanced service, as well as an improved station environment and ever friendly staff!


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: ellendune on October 03, 2020, 04:33:43 pm
I guess in the "new normal" there's a discussion to be had about whether it's still justifiable to be pouring more and more money into a scheme for which demand is likely to be far lower than was originally anticipated, but notwithstanding that, the financial situation and delays are ridiculous.

But what have you got if you don't put more money in?  You can't send it back and get a refund on what is spent.  So in economic terms the question is whether the whole benefit of completing the scheme is worth the extra ?1 billion or so?  Not whether the benefit is worth all that will have been spent. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on October 03, 2020, 05:04:21 pm
I guess in the "new normal" there's a discussion to be had about whether it's still justifiable to be pouring more and more money into a scheme for which demand is likely to be far lower than was originally anticipated, but notwithstanding that, the financial situation and delays are ridiculous.

But what have you got if you don't put more money in?  You can't send it back and get a refund on what is spent.  So in economic terms the question is whether the whole benefit of completing the scheme is worth the extra ?1 billion or so?  Not whether the benefit is worth all that will have been spent. 

As I said, there's a discussion to be had, but there clearly needs to be more accountability for these projects which vastly exceed budgets and timings.

I suspect, given the usual railway form, some years (more likely decades) down the line, we will be facing similar discussions over massive cost increases/time overruns with HS2 - in the case of cost of course, we already are.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: eightf48544 on October 05, 2020, 11:11:07 am
Nice trains though, and TfL have given Taplow a much enhanced service, as well as an improved station environment and ever friendly staff!

Agree with Taplowgreen the station looks good although it would be better still with the old footbridge in place. However it would mean no lift from the South Car Park.

The train service seems pretty reliable Three Up stoppers is an hours gardening.

Just a thought  now that the line is likely to be less well used in the central section when it opens it might it be time to add toilets to the 345s whislt many units are spare and could be run though the works .

One disabled two ordinary in a nine car.  Lose < 100 capacity out ot 1500.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: broadgage on October 05, 2020, 04:10:50 pm
Agree, IMHO ALL new trains should have toilets.
Allowance needs to be made not just for the normal and foreseeable needs of passengers, but also for the inevitable strandings and breakdowns.
Remember the Lewisham debacle and the appalling conditions resulting.
Consider also the inevitable use of trains on longer routes than for which they were originally intended.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 05, 2020, 08:23:45 pm
Just a thought  now that the line is likely to be less well used in the central section when it opens it might it be time to add toilets to the 345s whislt many units are spare and could be run though the works .

One disabled two ordinary in a nine car.  Lose < 100 capacity out ot 1500.

I'm struggling to visualise how this could lead to the loss up to 100 sitting / standing passengers.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 05, 2020, 08:27:21 pm
From newcivilengineer.com (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/crossrail-confirms-network-rail-stations-delay-05-10-2020/)

Quote
Crossrail Ltd has confirmed that upgrade works to surface stations on the eastern and western sections of the railway will be pushed into next year due to the impact of the Covid-19 pandemic.
In a monthly update to the London Assembly, Crossrail Ltd chief executive Mark Wild said that despite recent progress at Romford, West Drayton, Ealing Broadway and Hayes & Harlington, the pandemic had interrupted progress.
?As a result of the temporary pause of Network Rail works due to Covid-19, it is likely that these enhanced stations, along with llford, Southall, Acton Main Line and West Ealing, will be completed as soon as possible in 2021,? he said.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: FremlinsMan on October 05, 2020, 08:33:46 pm
Just a thought  now that the line is likely to be less well used in the central section when it opens it might it be time to add toilets to the 345s whislt many units are spare and could be run though the works .

One disabled two ordinary in a nine car.  Lose < 100 capacity out ot 1500.

I'm struggling to visualise how this could lead to the loss up to 100 sitting / standing passengers.
To provide toilets, couldn't these trains have a carriage dedicated to that purpose? No seats, just toilets. It would truly be a "honey wagon".


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on October 05, 2020, 10:19:22 pm
Just a thought  now that the line is likely to be less well used in the central section when it opens it might it be time to add toilets to the 345s whislt many units are spare and could be run though the works .

One disabled two ordinary in a nine car.  Lose < 100 capacity out ot 1500.

I'm struggling to visualise how this could lead to the loss up to 100 sitting / standing passengers.

You said "up to". The original said "less than". They mean the same thing, don't they (apart from exact equality, that is)?


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on October 05, 2020, 10:32:12 pm
Whilst a toilet retrofit would be most welcome, realistically it won?t happen.  Too costly and of course the depots would also need redesigning and expensive equipment fitted to allow for toilet waste to be tanked and disposed of.

It remains a major flaw of the trains and tarnishes the slick operation and otherwise suitable design of the trains IMHO.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TonyK on October 06, 2020, 10:05:55 am

It remains a major flaw of the trains and tarnishes the slick operation and otherwise suitable design of the trains IMHO.

Nonetheless, the time most, if not all, passengers will spend on a Crossrail train is less than many will spend on a bus in somewhere like Bristol. There is no call to equip buses with toilets, and fewer bus stops than stations have facilities.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: broadgage on October 06, 2020, 03:46:18 pm
IMHO, toilets are a requirement even for relatively short rail routes due to the risk of stranding, breakdown or other delays.
Not comparable to buses. Passengers may alight from a delayed bus and relieve them selves, whereas on trains the policy is "keep them on board no matter what"


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on October 06, 2020, 04:44:47 pm
IMHO, toilets are a requirement even for relatively short rail routes due to the risk of stranding, breakdown or other delays.
Not comparable to buses. Passengers may alight from a delayed bus and relieve them selves, whereas on trains the policy is "keep them on board no matter what"

.............an empty Port bottle may come in handy in these circumstances?  ;)


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: didcotdean on October 06, 2020, 04:44:57 pm
The TfL argument is that toilets will be available within nearly all Crossrail stations and for the others they are facilities nearby (eg for Paddington in the main line station and Bond Street in the shopping centre above). However, some people will be in more urgent need, and outside of emergencies the current low service frequencies makes breaking the journey unattractive.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on October 06, 2020, 06:10:12 pm
Agree, IMHO ALL new trains should have toilets.

[snip]

Consider also the inevitable use of trains on longer routes than for which they were originally intended.

I will give you "most" but not all.  There are no toilets on class 139 trains, and I think you would be hard pressed to justify them as and when the time comes for replacements.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on October 06, 2020, 07:50:08 pm
The TfL argument is that toilets will be available within nearly all Crossrail stations and for the others they are facilities nearby (eg for Paddington in the main line station and Bond Street in the shopping centre above). However, some people will be in more urgent need, and outside of emergencies the current low service frequencies makes breaking the journey unattractive.

The Elizabeth Line is a Metro service, the DfT have determined that metro services do not require toilets, many other services into London do not have toilets on board trains


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: 1st fan on October 06, 2020, 08:03:22 pm
This is an interesting article and associated research paper showing how common overruns and cost escalations are in all sectors, not just rail:

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/cost_overruns_of_major_government_projects

Interesting indeed - I note that rail projects had by far the highest average cost escalation (page 4) and the organisation you cite have produced a lot of interesting articles on HS2 as well, which dwarfs most of the others in terms of cost overrun;

https://www.taxpayersalliance.com/scrap_hs2

The taxpayers alliance is a shadowy extreme right wing lobby group whose funding is a closely guarded secret.  I am not sure how much weight I would put on any so called research they publish. 
My uncle has worked on large projects across the world. He said there's zero chance that they only realised months/weeks/days before it was due to open that it wouldn't. You have timelines, deadlines, project update meetings all of which would in any normal project indicate that there are going to be delays.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 06, 2020, 08:06:15 pm
The Elizabeth Line is a Metro service, the DfT have determined that metro services do not require toilets, many other services into London do not have toilets on board trains

But SWR are correcting that with their new 701 fleet of trains that should be in service within the next year or two. Or maybe three. It's a rail project so it's bound to take longer than expected for the complete rollout.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: broadgage on October 07, 2020, 05:22:19 am
The TfL argument is that toilets will be available within nearly all Crossrail stations and for the others they are facilities nearby (eg for Paddington in the main line station and Bond Street in the shopping centre above). However, some people will be in more urgent need, and outside of emergencies the current low service frequencies makes breaking the journey unattractive.


And will these toilets be reliably available for use, throughout railway operating hours ?
I expect that a lot of them will be closed due to;
Essential maintenance.
Staff shortage.
Vandalism.
Water supply failure.
Security alert.
Some might never actually open, with a promise of toilets gradually turning into a future aspiration that is being "worked towards"

And of course the possibility of station toilets wont help during multi-hour strandings that seem to be an increasing part of modern railway operations.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Reading General on October 07, 2020, 09:46:25 am


The Elizabeth Line is a Metro service, the DfT have determined that metro services do not require toilets, many other services into London do not have toilets on board trains
I guess the DfT have failed to recognise that as well as a service into London it's also a service to London for those beyond the city's outer limits. It's more than a metro service.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: didcotdean on October 07, 2020, 10:40:58 am
The previous generation of trains operating the service on the eastern side, ie Liverpool Street to Shenfield didn't have toilets, but they were in effect an inner-suburban configuration even though the journey time end to end can be up to three-quarters of an hour. Indeed the generation before that didn't have toilets either, at least for what would then have been second-class passengers.

The counter-example is the continued provision of toilets on Thameslink, but TfL hasn't got its hands on that.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 29, 2020, 11:53:02 am
As a bit of an aside, why do we refer to Crossrail as 'the biggest infrastructure project in Europe' when the EUR38 billion Grand Paris Express, with its 200km of tunnels, is plainly bigger?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjuMcWwMqPk

It'll be interesting to see if they manage to avoid some of the pitfalls of Crossrail...


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: broadgage on October 29, 2020, 02:08:42 pm
Perhaps the title "biggest infrastructure project in Europe" is to prepare us for when the cost escalates to such a degree that it BECOMES the biggest infrastructure project in Europe, at least in terms of cost.

I expect that the Paris project will also increase in cost, but not as rapidly as Crossrail, so Crossrail could overtake it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on October 29, 2020, 04:40:03 pm
As a bit of an aside, why do we refer to Crossrail as 'the biggest infrastructure project in Europe' when the EUR38 billion Grand Paris Express, with its 200km of tunnels, is plainly bigger?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjuMcWwMqPk

It'll be interesting to see if they manage to avoid some of the pitfalls of Crossrail...

It should be remembered that from the UK point of view Europe now consists of only 4 nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on October 29, 2020, 06:06:45 pm
As a bit of an aside, why do we refer to Crossrail as 'the biggest infrastructure project in Europe' when the EUR38 billion Grand Paris Express, with its 200km of tunnels, is plainly bigger?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjuMcWwMqPk

It'll be interesting to see if they manage to avoid some of the pitfalls of Crossrail...

It should be remembered that from the UK point of view Europe now consists of only 4 nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland  ;D ;D ;D

I though it was the other way round - Crossrail can't be the largest anything in Europe, as we're not part of the continent of Europe any more. So I wonder, what are we now - the incontinent of Europe?


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 29, 2020, 07:05:17 pm
...we're not part of the continent of Europe any more...

Ah well, if a clod be washed away by the sea and all that.

I note that the Grand Paris Express doesn't claim to be the biggest in Europe. That's because it's the biggest in the world. And its father doesn't smell of elderberries.

Edit: Correction: Mothers don't smell of elderberries.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TonyK on October 30, 2020, 09:42:53 am

It should be remembered that from the UK point of view Europe now consists of only 4 nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland  ;D ;D ;D

... at the time of writing.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: smokey on October 30, 2020, 03:13:29 pm

It should be remembered that from the UK point of view Europe now consists of only 4 nations, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland  ;D ;D ;D

... at the time of writing.

More correctly,  the United Kingdom view is that Europe is OVER the Water! ;D ;D


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: broadgage on October 30, 2020, 04:19:46 pm
"Channel fogbound, ferries and planes at a standstill. Europe isolated" Said to be an old newspaper headline.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on October 30, 2020, 06:27:47 pm
"Channel fogbound, ferries and planes at a standstill. Europe isolated" Said to be an old newspaper headline.

Except now there is TransManche Link  ;D which is not effected by fog


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TonyK on October 31, 2020, 04:22:09 pm

Except now there is TransManche Link  ;D which is not effected by fog

Steady now, ET! I got in trouble for coming over all French. I expected a ?50 fixed penalty.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2020, 07:57:05 pm
From Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/19bn-crossrail-faces-mothballing-over-state-funding-row-tfl-chief-warns-12138012)

Quote
Crossrail, London's long-delayed ?19bn east-to-west rail link, faces being "mothballed" without the release of urgent new government funding, the capital's transport chief has warned ministers.

Sky News has learnt that Andy Byford, the London transport commissioner, wrote to the permanent secretary at the Department for Transport (DfT) this week, seeking ?80m of immediate support to keep the project on track.

Mr Byford, who took on the role in May and has spent much of the last six months battling to secure funds to keep London's bus and Tube network running during the COVID-19 crisis, told Bernadette Kelly that without the additional funding being provided, he could relinquish responsibility for it.

"If agreement is not reached this week, we will have no option but to mothball the project and to seek alternative governance for its eventual completion," the letter said, according to a Whitehall source who had been briefed on it.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2020, 07:59:09 pm
And from the RMT (https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmton-crossrail-speculation/)

Quote
RMT Press Office:

As speculation grows that Crossrail could be mothballed RMT demands Government stop using TFL and its workers as a political football.

Responding to reports that the Capital's Crossrail line could be mothballed without immediate funding transport union RMT today called on the Government to stop using TFL as a political football.

RMT General Secretary Mick Cash said:

"What's happening between the Government and TFL is nothing short of a disgrace. As we approach next year's London Mayoral Election it's clear the Government are using TFL and our members as a political football and rather than stick to their pledge of "Building Back Better" they're starving TFL of vital funds and playing games with worker's livelihoods.

"London transport and its workforce are vital to the economic recovery from Covid-19 and RMT will not be afraid to do whatever is necessary to protect our member's jobs and livelihoods"


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on November 21, 2020, 08:31:33 pm
This is not an increase in the projected cost - for once. The last time the estimated cost to completion rose was in August, when adding Covid-19 the the previous figures (updated) was reported as an extra ?450M. Negotiations between TfL and DfT on who will pay and when have not got far - and of course TfL and London are broke. This is all in a paper from the last TfL board meeting  (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/20200930-board-chairs-action-crossrail-governance-transition-web.pdf)(20th October):
Quote
8 Funding Position and Financial Implications

8.1 On 7 December 2018, a Chair?s Action paper entitled ?Crossrail Update? was approved, giving an increase to Crossrail funding of ?2.15bn to an overall financial envelope of ?14.964bn (excluding Network Rail costs), reflecting the need for additional funding announced by CRL in the summer of 2018. This funding was negotiated with Government and included a ?750m loan facility between TfL and the Secretary of State, along with a GLA grant to TfL of ?1.4bn.

8.2 In November 2019, CRL announced that additional funding over and above the ?2.15bn funding package would be required to complete the project. At that time, an estimate of additional funding, at differing levels of probability, of between ?400m and ?650m was provided by CRL. Funding discussions with government on how to resolve this funding gap took place during the following months, but progress with government remained slow. Once the Covid-19 crisis began, the focus of funding discussions with government shifted to immediate issues related to TfL?s wider financial position and it was acknowledged by all parties that Crossrail funding would be dealt with at a later point as part of the H2 negotiations, when the impact of Covid-19 on CRL?s funding requirement was better understood.

8.3 On 21 August 2020, CRL announced that the previously stated funding gap of between ?400m and ?650m had increased, on an emerging basis, to up to ?1.1bn.

8.4 CRL has not yet fully utilised the current ?2.15bn funding package in cash terms and this is expected to be exhausted in March 2021. However, the full amount of the existing funding package is anticipated to be fully committed by mid-October 2020. At this point, if funding discussions are not concluded, CRL will be unable to make any further financial commitments.

8.5 TfL and the GLA are working through potential funding proposals that seek to close this gap. Government has consistently stated that ?London should pay?, irrespective of the fact that the majority of the economic benefit of the project flows to the exchequer. However, the options for London based funding are extremely limited, even more so post-Covid-19, and are inherently interdependent on both TfL and the GLA?s wider financial position, which have suffered substantial adverse impacts as a result of Covid-19. These discussions will remain ongoing as part of wider funding discussions with government and will be progressed in parallel to the governance transition.

There is also a lot about structural changes - not to the tunnels, this is "governance": moving the board chairs on a sinking ship.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on November 21, 2020, 09:14:40 pm
This is not an increase in the projected cost - for once. The last time the estimated cost to completion rose was in August, when adding Covid-19 the the previous figures (updated) was reported as an extra ?450M. Negotiations between TfL and DfT on who will pay and when have not got far - and of course TfL and London are broke. This is all in a paper from the last TfL board meeting  (https://tfl.gov.uk/cdn/static/cms/documents/20200930-board-chairs-action-crossrail-governance-transition-web.pdf)(20th October):
Quote
8 Funding Position and Financial Implications

8.1 On 7 December 2018, a Chair?s Action paper entitled ?Crossrail Update? was approved, giving an increase to Crossrail funding of ?2.15bn to an overall financial envelope of ?14.964bn (excluding Network Rail costs), reflecting the need for additional funding announced by CRL in the summer of 2018. This funding was negotiated with Government and included a ?750m loan facility between TfL and the Secretary of State, along with a GLA grant to TfL of ?1.4bn.

8.2 In November 2019, CRL announced that additional funding over and above the ?2.15bn funding package would be required to complete the project. At that time, an estimate of additional funding, at differing levels of probability, of between ?400m and ?650m was provided by CRL. Funding discussions with government on how to resolve this funding gap took place during the following months, but progress with government remained slow. Once the Covid-19 crisis began, the focus of funding discussions with government shifted to immediate issues related to TfL?s wider financial position and it was acknowledged by all parties that Crossrail funding would be dealt with at a later point as part of the H2 negotiations, when the impact of Covid-19 on CRL?s funding requirement was better understood.

8.3 On 21 August 2020, CRL announced that the previously stated funding gap of between ?400m and ?650m had increased, on an emerging basis, to up to ?1.1bn.

8.4 CRL has not yet fully utilised the current ?2.15bn funding package in cash terms and this is expected to be exhausted in March 2021. However, the full amount of the existing funding package is anticipated to be fully committed by mid-October 2020. At this point, if funding discussions are not concluded, CRL will be unable to make any further financial commitments.

8.5 TfL and the GLA are working through potential funding proposals that seek to close this gap. Government has consistently stated that ?London should pay?, irrespective of the fact that the majority of the economic benefit of the project flows to the exchequer. However, the options for London based funding are extremely limited, even more so post-Covid-19, and are inherently interdependent on both TfL and the GLA?s wider financial position, which have suffered substantial adverse impacts as a result of Covid-19. These discussions will remain ongoing as part of wider funding discussions with government and will be progressed in parallel to the governance transition.

There is also a lot about structural changes - not to the tunnels, this is "governance": moving the board chairs on a sinking ship.

And no doubt some cats will get chubbier and as the violin plays "Nearer My God to Thee"


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: ellendune on November 21, 2020, 09:38:20 pm
Given the government's stated ambition is to end the imbalance of investment towards London and South East this is politically difficult for them even before you add the politics of a Labour Mayor and a very Conservative government and a mayoral election in May.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on November 25, 2020, 04:38:35 pm
From Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/19bn-crossrail-faces-mothballing-over-state-funding-row-tfl-chief-warns-12138012)

Quote
Crossrail, London's long-delayed ?19bn east-to-west rail link, faces being "mothballed" without the release of urgent new government funding, the capital's transport chief has warned ministers.

From New Civil Engineer (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/government-commits-to-funding-crossrail-completion-25-11-2020/)

Quote
The ?19bn Crossrail project received a major boost today (25 November) as the government committed to financing the completion of the scheme.

The project has been beset by a series of delays and cost overruns, raising concerns over its delivery.

The decision to finance the completion of the project was confirmed in the government?s National Infrastructure Strategy, which insists levelling up the rest of the UK should not mean levelling London down.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on November 25, 2020, 07:11:38 pm
From Sky News (https://news.sky.com/story/19bn-crossrail-faces-mothballing-over-state-funding-row-tfl-chief-warns-12138012)

Quote
Crossrail, London's long-delayed ?19bn east-to-west rail link, faces being "mothballed" without the release of urgent new government funding, the capital's transport chief has warned ministers.

From New Civil Engineer (https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/government-commits-to-funding-crossrail-completion-25-11-2020/)

Quote
The ?19bn Crossrail project received a major boost today (25 November) as the government committed to financing the completion of the scheme.

The project has been beset by a series of delays and cost overruns, raising concerns over its delivery.

The decision to finance the completion of the project was confirmed in the government?s National Infrastructure Strategy, which insists levelling up the rest of the UK should not mean levelling London down.

It worth noting that the trains were built in Derby, the electrical traction power control system for the central section and the CIS for the whole line designed and equipment built in Ashby de la Zouch (an no that's not Belgum) and Manchester, the rail from Scunthorpe etc many of the workforce constructing it are from all over the UK.

By not completing it could have a bigger effect on the economy than the funding



Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TonyK on November 27, 2020, 07:48:38 am
It's also a good result for TfL and the Mayor of London. Somebody else is paying.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 27, 2020, 08:06:55 am


It's also a good result for TfL and the Mayor of London. Somebody else is paying.

Isn't that always the case?


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: REVUpminster on November 27, 2020, 10:20:49 pm
I think the government will just throw money at it till it's done and open before the next General Election as it does pass through Tory heartlands.

it is just a glorified relief line for the central Central Line and stations such as Stratford, Liverpool Street and Paddington.

The only new area served is Abbey Wood which originally was to be served by a branch from the Jubilee Line at North Greenwich for which the junction was built at time of construction.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on November 27, 2020, 10:54:26 pm
I think the government will just throw money at it till it's done and open before the next General Election as it does pass through Tory heartlands.

it is just a glorified relief line for the central Central Line and stations such as Stratford, Liverpool Street and Paddington. ...

I'm going to question "just" - are they not also using their purse of money as a lever to force their political agenda and controls over the cash-strapped Transport for London? 

Were you questioning when/whether the Central Line actually needs relief at the moment?  Perhaps it could me more than that with long distance cross London trains.  Norwich to Plymouth, Swansea to Brussels or Sandwich to Weston-super-Mare?  HS2 brings Birmingham to Paris.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: REVUpminster on November 28, 2020, 06:52:38 am
Crossrail like the Central Line before at the outer ends is just a takeover of existing BR lines. The Central took over the Epping line with some new build via Gants Hill then taking over more BR lines to Hainault that came from Ilford. West Ruislip was similar.

If Birmingham to London with HS2 in half an hour then Paris does become a real possibility. But who remembers the Nightstars languishing in Long Marston for the proposed sleeper service from Scotland to Paris; eventually being sold to Italian Railways.

After covid air travel will return to normal very quickly. Look how many went abroad (500,000) as soon as the first lockdown ended and probably brought back the second wave from "safe" countries such as Spain and Greece.

The Christmas break is expected to bring a third wave just from locals. The government probably knows this from advanced bookings on various modes of transport.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on November 28, 2020, 07:54:28 am
I think the government will just throw money at it till it's done and open before the next General Election as it does pass through Tory heartlands.

it is just a glorified relief line for the central Central Line and stations such as Stratford, Liverpool Street and Paddington.

The only new area served is Abbey Wood which originally was to be served by a branch from the Jubilee Line at North Greenwich for which the junction was built at time of construction.

There is an Election soon, May 21 the deferred Mayor for London, BoJo desperately wants the tories to win it back from Labour.

It actually more a relief for the Jubilee Line, Bakerloo (Pad - Baker St) in the west, in the east takes the pressure again off of the Jubilee and the GE services into Liverpool St.

Passenger numbers may never return to the plus 7% year on year growth the railways in London and the SE had seen in the last 15 years, however within a couple of years passengers numbers will return, because we humans like to travel and meet people.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: ellendune on November 28, 2020, 09:37:18 am
Passenger numbers may never return to the plus 7% year on year growth the railways in London and the SE had seen in the last 15 years, however within a couple of years passengers numbers will return, because we humans like to travel and meet people.

I am not so sure London commuter traffic will return to the same levels. Companies have started to realise that they can do more with electronic communications than they thought and so the very large and expensive London office starts to look less like value for money.

The 1960's and 70's saw many companies move their head offices out of London to replicate these as large centralised offices in other parts of the country (often in places like Reading - so not so far from London).  I don't see this as a model either. I don't think many companies will abandon offices all together but a mix of a network of smaller offices distributed around the country with more home working and electronic communications seems to me to be the future. 

The company I now work for has a Head Office in Cheshire (so not costing central London prices), but has many offices around the country (including the one I don't work in at the moment) a recent senior Head Office job was advertised internally as "location flexible" the the external advert said based in Cheshire. 


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: rogerw on December 02, 2020, 10:39:03 am
Announced yesterday that a ?825M funding package has been agreed to enable completion. The funding package will be split into a ?500M loan with a fixed repayment profile and a ?325M loan that will be repaid subject to MCIL and BRS revenues going forward. Ultimately this means that Londoners will foot the bill.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Reginald25 on December 02, 2020, 10:54:03 am
Always seems to me that the real benefit of Crossrail to the underground network is relief on the sub-surface section east of Paddington where three routes share the same tracks to Aldgate.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TonyK on December 02, 2020, 02:44:08 pm
Whatever to pros and cons of Crossrail, however the pandemic pans out, and whoever wins the mayoral election, Crossrail will get finished one day. There is simply not enough capacity to shift everyone from A to B across London, as well as into and out of the capital from its dormitories. It may be that with office workers taking up residence in the study permanently, banks fleeing to the continent to escape Brexit, Oxford Street becoming a row of high class charity shops and all the supporting cast of newsagents, coffee shops and the like going to the wall, that London will be a lot less busy. Personally, I wouldn't bet on it long term, and if you look back to when Crossrail was first proposed, you can see that it is very much a long-term job. Whether it connects Birmingham to the City, replaces or augments some underground lines or lets city workers live in Reading and have a one-train journey to work isn't really relevant. What matters is that more people can get around more easily, new through routes are possibly, and the pressure is eased on the rest of the network. Politics or no politics, it will have whatever money it needs to get finished.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: broadgage on December 02, 2020, 07:23:05 pm
I agree, the overspending and delays are regrettable, but leaving the project three quarters built and substantially unusable was not a realistic option.

We know not what the future holds, but I fully expect that Crossrail will be well used when it eventually opens. For decades, rising passenger numbers within London or indeed further afield have simply resulted in worse overcrowding rather than in more capacity.
Nice to see some extra capacity actually being built.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: REVUpminster on December 02, 2020, 09:51:24 pm
It will be well used because it takes over two existing commuter services. How much extra traffic it generates we'll have to see.

At first it is only taking revenue from GWR and Anglia and giving it to TFL


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on December 03, 2020, 07:49:27 am
Always seems to me that the real benefit of Crossrail to the underground network is relief on the sub-surface section east of Paddington where three routes share the same tracks to Aldgate.

It is a bit wider than that, it will indeed easy the loading on the Circle, H&S, District and Met, it will a bigger impact on the Jubilee and from Padd the Bakerloo, likewise from the East it will relive the Jubilee and Central from the SE it opens up new routes into the City, Westend and Docklands.

The other key benefit for travellers from the west will be the Farringdon interchange with Thameslink giving easy access to services to Cambridge, Peterborough also for those east of Reading easier access South to Gatwick etc

It is easy to look at Crossrail in the very short term of the Covid impact, Crossrail will still be here in a 100 years when Covid will be an event in history as the Spanish flu is to us of a 100 years ago.

The one thing I have learnt in my 45 year railway engineering career is what I am renewing now another engineer designed and installed it over 50, 70 ........... 100 years ago and what I am seeing the designs for and witnessing the build of will be in service long after I am in my pine box.

The politicians are circulating ready to pull the corps of the Crossrail project apart once its complete so they can walk away with trophies to aid their prospects at elections, it is the nature of UK politics


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Godfrey Tables on December 11, 2020, 12:14:21 am
I came across this on Youtube. For those that cannot wait for Crossrail to fully open this drivers eye view from Abbey Wood to Paddington might tide you over for a bit.
I must admit I rather enjoyed this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHjoav_sb88 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHjoav_sb88)


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 12, 2020, 01:59:59 am
Thanks for the link.

We?re being kept waiting, but, boy, what a cracking piece of railway infrastructure.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TonyN on December 12, 2020, 09:41:47 am
Crossrail are cross.
The Video has been removed due to a copyright claim by Crossrail.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Surrey 455 on December 12, 2020, 11:51:14 am
Crossrail are cross.
The Video has been removed due to a copyright claim by Crossrail.

I didn't see that video. was it the same as the one here at ITV News (https://www.itv.com/news/london/2020-12-09/crossrails-elizabeth-line-increases-train-testing)?

I'm not sure how long ITV News reports stay online.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 12, 2020, 01:22:53 pm
I didn't see that video. was it the same as the one here at ITV News (https://www.itv.com/news/london/2020-12-09/crossrails-elizabeth-line-increases-train-testing)?

It was the same video but running in realtime in 4K rather than timelapsed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: RailCornwall on December 14, 2020, 09:52:04 pm
From the official Crossrail site

https://youtu.be/r1HZHDTjGSw


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: REVUpminster on December 15, 2020, 11:24:51 am
 The train stopped in the eastbound track and did not go into the turnback sidings which all looked occupied.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2020, 11:37:44 am
Yes, although for the time being all lines are acting as turnback sidings in effect.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TonyK on December 15, 2020, 12:19:04 pm
We?re being kept waiting, but, boy, what a cracking piece of railway infrastructure.

Absolutely!


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Lee on January 25, 2021, 08:58:35 am
Crossrail?s revised cost and opening date are under ?significant pressure? due to an ?under-resourced? and ?over-stretched? workforce, Jacobs latest Project Representative (Prep) reports conclude - https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/over-stretched-workforce-puts-crossrail-schedule-under-significant-pressure-25-01-2021/



Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on January 25, 2021, 09:42:14 am
Crossrail?s revised cost and opening date are under ?significant pressure? due to an ?under-resourced? and ?over-stretched? workforce, Jacobs latest Project Representative (Prep) reports conclude - https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/over-stretched-workforce-puts-crossrail-schedule-under-significant-pressure-25-01-2021/



Pretty dreadful really but I doubt many will be surprised, and to paraphrase a Blair spin Doctor, it's a good time to bury bad news.

When NCE asked HS2 Ltd how many of its staff had been recruited directly from Crossrail ? via a Freedom of Information request submitted in September 2020 ? HS2 Ltd said that it was ?unable to answer [the] request using current reporting tools? because its ?data is not organised in such a way?. - I very much doubt the Information Commissioner would let them get away with that one if pushed.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on January 25, 2021, 12:58:43 pm
Crossrail?s revised cost and opening date are under ?significant pressure? due to an ?under-resourced? and ?over-stretched? workforce, Jacobs latest Project Representative (Prep) reports conclude - https://www.newcivilengineer.com/latest/over-stretched-workforce-puts-crossrail-schedule-under-significant-pressure-25-01-2021/

It was suggest years ago by Crossrail that it should be allowed to work collaboratively with HS2 in regards to workforce and skills training, this was ruled out by the Government as being uncompetative, increase costs and add delay.

The other thing not mentioned is the Brexit effect, large numbers of EU countries skilled workers migrated back to the EU as there was no certainty they and their families could remain.  For a large number of the jobs in Crossrail do not fit into the UK Governments essential skill profile


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Marlburian on January 25, 2021, 02:35:28 pm
But, says the  Reading Chronicle's website (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19035857.crossrail-will-run-berkshire-may-open-sooner-thought/),

"Crossrail, which will run through Berkshire, may be open sooner than thought."


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on January 25, 2021, 02:39:45 pm
But, says the  Reading Chronicle's website (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19035857.crossrail-will-run-berkshire-may-open-sooner-thought/),

"Crossrail, which will run through Berkshire, may be open sooner than thought."

I feel that could right,


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TonyK on January 25, 2021, 09:53:47 pm
But, says the  Reading Chronicle's website (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19035857.crossrail-will-run-berkshire-may-open-sooner-thought/),

"Crossrail, which will run through Berkshire, may be open sooner than thought."

That would make a lot of sense, providing it can be done safely. I reckon it would be better to start when passengers numbers are low and the alternatives are still in place in case of problems.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 29, 2021, 12:16:52 am
A couple of recent video updates:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXGWKcoGynM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snYHvZMRLlA

CEO Mark Wild is a nice, genuine chap, but surely they could have fixed his hat on straight!


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Marlburian on May 20, 2021, 08:18:00 am
Crossrail has given Twyford homeowners something to smile about (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/crossrail-given-twyford-homeowners-something-20632900)


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Reading General on May 20, 2021, 02:14:09 pm
Aren’t they all lucky.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: TaplowGreen on May 21, 2021, 07:23:01 am
Aren’t they all lucky.

Pretty good for Taplow too!  :)


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: johoare on May 21, 2021, 01:42:25 pm
And Maidenhead! Just need Crossrail to actually open then I can sell up and move on  ::)


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on July 18, 2021, 11:02:05 am
We don't seem to have an active thread for Crossrail progress - I wonder why ....

But there is some. Trial running just started again after a blockade to allow work on stations. Before that they had managed 8 tph, and this week they had a go at 12 tph. On Monday they just about managed that level for an hour or so, but without keeping to the timetable, and gave up at lunchtime. Tuesday was better, and by Wednesday there was pretty well a full (trial) service for six hours with none missing and only a few a few minutes late. So then they took the rest of the week off!

They have also rejigged the phasing of the introduction of public services to the tunnel, as documented in IanVisits (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2021/07/12/crossrail-to-make-changes-to-its-staged-opening-plans/). The differences don't really affect passengers much, it's more about how the operations are managed but should allow through running a bit earlier (than something).


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: didcotdean on August 20, 2021, 04:05:05 pm
The latest update from Crossrail today shows several views of the completed Paddington concourse and other areas, the test running and looks forward: https://youtu.be/iTzsCvvFEoA


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Bob_Blakey on August 21, 2021, 11:05:07 am
In the video Mr Wild specifies a finally final completion of the project by May 2023 and passengers / taxpayers are expected to be impressed?


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: Electric train on August 21, 2021, 12:38:45 pm
In the video Mr Wild specifies a finally final completion of the project by May 2023 and passengers / taxpayers are expected to be impressed?

I think he has been quite consistent with his messages and updates.  He started at one point for the first part (Paddington / Abbey Wood) as "we are planning for"  he is now sending out a much more confident message as "we are well on track for"

Also he is now say what the final stages are with expected time lines.

This phase of Crossrail was left a bit of mess by the previous 'construction' senior leadership who had totally forgot about commissioning and integrating a highly complex system


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on August 21, 2021, 01:47:32 pm
In the video Mr Wild specifies a finally final completion of the project by May 2023 and passengers / taxpayers are expected to be impressed?

I think he has been quite consistent with his messages and updates.  He started at one point for the first part (Paddington / Abbey Wood) as "we are planning for"  he is now sending out a much more confident message as "we are well on track for"

Also he is now say what the final stages are with expected time lines.

This phase of Crossrail was left a bit of mess by the previous 'construction' senior leadership who had totally forgot about commissioning and integrating a highly complex system

The plan has several stages of opening, and I don't think they have ever succeeded in putting this across clearly. It may not even be possible. For one thing, when passengers start using the central tunnel, they will still have to change at Paddington to and from the west. Paddington station was finished recently, will be an important interchange for the surface station for a few months, and will then become somewhere to whizz past unseen. So for passengers from Taplow (especially those going to Bond Street) the first opening is not a lot of use.

There's an IanVisits report on that that includes a simpler statement of the phasing, as it affects Paddington, which may help:
Quote
When the line opens next year*, people coming in from the east via Canary Wharf will use the new station, while services coming in from the west will continue to use the mainline station.

Later next year, it’s planned that all services will use the new platforms, with a slightly better service for the Abbey Wood branch than the Shenfield branch, and then the whole lot is linked up in early 2023.
*A report in July (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2021/07/27/crossrail-aiming-for-february-2022-opening-date/) has Mark Wild giving "early February 2022" as the earliest date for that step.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: IndustryInsider on August 31, 2021, 04:47:56 pm
If anyone wants to watch how the testing is going, the signalmaps site has the best detail I've seen:

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#crossrail:946

Trains, signals, routes, berth occupation all shown (though the route set can be a little difficult to interpret).


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on August 31, 2021, 05:17:26 pm
If anyone wants to watch how the testing is going, the signalmaps site has the best detail I've seen:

https://signalmaps.co.uk/#crossrail:946

Trains, signals, routes, berth occupation all shown (though the route set can be a little difficult to interpret).

Plus there's still the odd glitch like a train appearing where it is and where it isn't at the same time.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: bradshaw on September 08, 2021, 01:18:55 pm
Looks interesting

RTT Stratford Tfl for this Sunday

Apologies, when modifying the link it seems OK but changes when posted.

Suggest go to RTT, enter Stratford, TOC XR Tfl, time 1023-1953, date 12/09/21

Crossrail trial running through the tunnels


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: GBM on September 08, 2021, 02:58:38 pm
Looks interesting

RTT Stratford Tfl for this Sunday

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:SRA/2021-09-12/0200-0159?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt&toc=XR

Crossrail trial running through the tunnels

Link not working - just a page saying the SRA has now closed!


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: bradshaw on September 08, 2021, 03:43:21 pm
Have modified the post taking out the link and instead suggesting search terms on RTT.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: GBM on September 08, 2021, 03:55:24 pm
Still only seeing the SRA link (which is still closed!); no link visible to the RTT site.  Apologies if only me


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: bradshaw on September 08, 2021, 05:02:22 pm
Opening up the link did get to the SRA. That part of the link is hidden when you copy and paste from the RTT web address.

However if you go to the RTT site
Enter
Location  Stratford
TOC XR Tfl
Time they run from 1023 to 1953
Date 12/09/21
That opens the page and should show trains running east from London Paddington


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on September 08, 2021, 05:05:51 pm
Still only seeing the SRA link (which is still closed!); no link visible to the RTT site.  Apologies if only me

Issue is our system for expanding abbreviations on the forum - with an abbreviation in the URL it causes trouble.

Abbreviations are only expanded once in a message so if I mention SRA, WVS and XR before I give the URL , it works:


https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:SRA/2021-09-12/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: grahame on September 08, 2021, 05:12:30 pm
You could also try

https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/detailed/gb-nr:TCR/2021-09-12/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=all&order=wtt


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: bignosemac on October 14, 2021, 12:42:55 pm
The left hand side of London Paddington has now been opened out in preparation for the commencement of Elizabeth Line services through Paddington.

(https://i.ibb.co/X8bPp56/IMG-20211014-122153.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/2vNXddS/IMG-20211014-122303.jpg)
(https://i.ibb.co/Nr9yDqg/IMG-20211014-122329.jpg)


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on November 17, 2021, 11:12:12 am
There was a London Assembly Transport Committee meeting (https://www.london.gov.uk/about-us/londonassembly/meetings/ieListDocuments.aspx?CId=173&MId=7077) yesterday, with a detailed situation update from Mark Wild. There's a three-hour video of proceedings, but if you feel too time-poor to cope with that there is a summary on IanVisits (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2021/11/16/crossrail-aims-to-start-trial-operations-within-days/). Here's a few highlights from that:
Quote
Crossrail aims to start Trial Operations “within days”
Published 16 November 2021 By Ian Mansfield Transport News

The final testing stage before the Elizabeth line opens to the public is due to start within the next few days, Crossrail’s CEO, Mark Wild has confirmed.

The Crossrail project has been in a phase known as Trial Running since April, which tests the railway with a timetabled service similar to the one the line will have when it opens to the public, and was used to shake out the final bugs in the complicated software needed to run the line and build up the reliability of the service.
...
Earlier this year, there were thousands of small things to fix, and now they’re down to the final 620 items to fix to open the line.

Trial Operations

The railway is now ready for the final stage before it opens to the public, the trial operations where hundreds of TfL staff will carry out passenger drills and safety evacuations to prove that the line is perfectly safe to open to the public.
...
Trial Operations will take 3-4 months, depending on the reliability growth of the systems. That means that at the moment, they are aiming to open the line as soon as possible between Feb and June 2022, but it’s down to those final tests and the “tuning up” of the systems.

The wide range for the opening date is also expected to narrow in the New Year, mainly once the final updates are made to the ventilation and trail control systems are completed over the Christmas period.

Stations

Out of the two stations left to hand over to TfL, Canary Wharf station is expected to be handed over by Christmas.

Two years ago, Bond Street was running 18 months behind the rest of the line, but over the past two years, they’ve almost caught up with the rest of the project, and the station is now, if not totally finished, it is revenue ready. All of the physical installation work will be completed by February 2022, and then there’s the document assurance process to confirm what’s built matches what was ordered.
...
Ultimately, a decision has been taken that if they can open the Elizabeth line early in the opening window next year, they will do so without Bond Street station, and add it in later.

Financing

The project is working to keep close to the £825 million funding deal, but at the time they were asking for £1.1 billion, and at the moment it still seems likely that something will be needed between the two.

If you look at RTT, trial operations has been running a five-minute service (12 tph) and doing that within 5 minutes for an hour or two at a time most days. But it rarely lasts longer, and then a train gets ten or twenty minutes late. That takes a couple of hours to work out of the system without cancellations, and then it's back to regular running again. There's also quite often a train missing and a ten-minute gap. So, not like any clock I'd use, but probably good enough to progress to the next stage.


Title: Re: Crossrail - further delay
Post by: stuving on November 20, 2021, 05:35:51 pm
Got my jargon wrong! It wasn't trial operations up to last week, it was trial running. Trial operations started today, involving the same 12 tph for most of the day, and going on to near midnight (tapering off). As well as more staff getting involved in training and dress rehearsal mode, there will be staged incidents for everyone to practice. So if RTT shows massive disruption, it's all planned. Probably.

And then, the same plan says public service starts on 6th March. So if that falls flat on its face due to "unforeseen circumstances", there will be loads of embarrassment - but at least by now there's been a lot of rehearsal of that too.

While a visible (if not yet nailed down) end-point is welcome, the whole timescale does look rather ... unVictorian, doesn't it?



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