Great Western Coffee Shop

The new TT also has a new list of peak restrictions. Leaflet 641894 shows 12 Tfl and 5 GWR departures from Paddington to Reading as off peak (OP). The TfL's all take between 57 and 61 minutes, the GWR trains 27 to 48 minutes. This gives a very reasonable availability of departures (if running) and empty seats (for the moment).

My question comes from the NRE information that gives three day single (S) fares to Reading; 25.10 OS and TWO OPS's at 21.50 and 20.10. The 21.50 trains, usually calling only at Twyford etc are therefore now restricted. Is there a marginal validity for OP singles on some services but not CDR's or one day travelcards ?

If I am confused...

E&OE

OTC

I wouldn't trust the info on National Rail at the moment. I was looking at off-peak validity back to Reading and it was suggesting it is not valid on most peak tfl services but is valid on a couple of them, and that it is not valid on the 16:42 fast to Didcot, but is valid on the 17:42 & 18:42 fast. Information I am sure not to be true

I played it safe yesterday and came back to Reading on the 15:37 fast to Newbury

If you look closely, you will see that the £21.50 fare is actually a Thames Branches Day Ranger! I've not looked at the restrictions as currently listed (nor do I know where any full restrictions, including unpublished ones, for rangers can be found), but presumably as now notified to the OJP this is valid after 16:00 on some specific trains. Perhaps this relates to the semifasts that used to be allowed with of-peak tickets? Cock-up, probably.

My understanding is that all TfL trains to Reading are charged off-peak in the evening 'peak'

As are the remaining GWR stopping services that take around an hour to get from Paddington to Reading.

Marlburian

As a widening of this topic, "anytime" and "off-peak" is a mess ...


Both my pictures.   The one on the right is an "off peak" train, with lower priced tickets that (as I understand it) were offered to encourage people to travel at times when trains weren't so crowded.   "Off peak" tickets are not valid on the train on the left - customers are required to pay the premium "anytime" fares to travel on it.

Is a fair (fare?) definition these days that an "off peak" train is one which runs at a time that customers are price sensitive to the extent they'll be put off by being asked to pay the "anytime" fare,  with a bit of 'this is what we're regulated to do' on the side?

The Rail Delivery Group did a big consultation excercise on updating fare the fare structure - lots of good questions asked, but to my knowledge no recommendations published as their work became an input to "Williams", looking even wider.  Williams should have reported by now, but no recommendations published yet as their work has been paused as we looked even wider and had an election.   Is it too much to hope that in this widening and widening again, the case for fare revision won't slip off the radar,  and be conveniently sidelined as the new government moves forward in its particular direction ... bypassing the intent of the likes of Theresa May, Chris Grayling and Phillip Hammond when they instigated this work.

While capacity remains in excess of demand in the peak (which it should for a year or two bearing in mind how much extra capacity has just been provided), any "Fat Controller" won't be interested in spreading load off peak fare trains which have space onto lower fare trains that also have the space - in fact, he won't want it to happen because it will hurt the bottom line.

There are no GWR stoppers in the peak - though there are some first-stop-Slough trains after 17:50 that are allowed and almost as slow (48 minutes).

The restriction code for off-peak singles and day returns (J9) still has a list (text) of all the trains not allowed, and blocked windows defined for OJPs to use. It has been updated for the new timetable, and those blocks are now "on GWR" instead of "on any TOC" which should take all the TfL ones out of the picture. It also covers them for getting the timing of the windows wrong (which they have).

The TVB ranger uses restriction code T3, which has a similar list of disallowed trains - but not identical. It looks like it's a revision out of date, so leaves a few trains allowed that have now been placed on the banned list. I can't see any unpublished restrictions on BRFares - but they must exist. In both cases these can be out of sync with the text, and then the OJP would be.

The intent seems to be that all long-distance trains are banned, all TfL stoppers are not, and with the semifasts it's a matter of some are and some aren't. The choice doesn't look very logical, but perhaps it wouldn't if they had just picked the ones that ran full up to last week to block. 

Ah, you're correct of course. I'm still struggling to work out the overall implications for me, but at the moment I'm thankful that earlier this year my number of off-peak visits to London reduced from about 16  a year to six. But I've always been an Eeeyore, and things seldom turn out as badly as I'd feared.

It would have helped of course if GWR put the leaflet I referenced, as a page on their website in an easily accessible place. (I could not find it.)

Perhaps the GWR people who officially read this could take this up with the designer.

Websites should inform as well as persuade and entertain.

OTC

I think in the past that leaflet was only available at Reading and nearby stations, since the list was different for travel to other stations. Now that the same information is in two of the printed timetables, I wasn't expecting that leaflet to still be produced, so I'm surprised to hear you've got one.

The changes in off-peak times that are producing all the screaming and shouting and rioting in the streets of places like Bedwyn are part of this move towards more uniform rules, but I think there are still significant differences (even without considering via-London routes).

In places like Bedwyn they'd consider it rioting in the street if Father Ted was standing outside the station with a placard saying "Careful now" - but I take your point.

But it is examples like this that find me in no great hurry to see the recommendations of Williams. There is an old saying "Better the Devil you know" and another "Be careful what you wish for."

Until TfL start charging their own fares alongside the existing ones.  Then, 1600 to 1900 westbound will be charged at peak Oyster / Contactless rates but off peak 'paper' fares.

That's what I understand from TfL's words so far - though I've not seen anything clear and specific on this. For example, if TfL's PAYG fares for travel outside their zones match the existing GWR ones, will they be charging more than GWR in the evening peak? Will that count as an anytime fare and allow you to use a fast train?

It is, after all, the payment method that sets the fare, not the train - and while GWR have an established system of different trains for off-peak and anytime, TfL don't and have said their fares will be valid on the "adjacent" GWR services (whatever that means).

Note that this issue hasn't arisen before, even though GWR operate TfL pricing out to West Drayton, since fast trains don't stop at any of these stations. Also, the paper tickets (sold by GWR until TfL took over the stations) served the same purpose as TfL paper tickets, and were similarly a lot more expensive than peak PAYG and not available as off-peak. None of which applies further out.

I believe I saw a copy of the new Off-peak leaflet on the counter at Reading yesterday. They still haven't managed to put out all the new timetable leaflets.

Except it hasn't, the OJPs are only offering the 17:13/18:13/19:13 tfl services and the 17:42/18:42 GWR services when looking at off peak services back to the Reading area despite what restrictions C7 / P7 / J9 etc say

I only looked at J9 - for singles from PAD - and that works as per the timetables. The T3 code being out of sync adds (spurious, I reckon) TVB ranger trips on semifasts, but that's a separate issue.

Restriction code C7 (for CDRs from RDG) however doesn't work, as you say. It has not had the change from "on any TOC" to "on GWR" made, so it blocks a whole load of TfL trains. Given that that is probably the main ticket being used off-peak out of PAD in the evenings, missing that change is really not clever at all.

The TfL single fare finder is clear about how Contactless fares will work from 2 January 2020.
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder

A blanket peak applies when travelling westward from 1600 to 1900 based on the first place you touch in, so in theory someone touching in on the other side of London at 1850 would pay a peak Contactless single from Gatwick to Twyford even if they pass through Paddington well after 1900.  (Obviously the converse is true - someone touching in on the other side of London at 1550 would pay off-peak fares regardless of when they pass through Paddington.)

Peak fares don't apply on Contactless to any destination through the evening peak for eastbound journeys originating west of West Drayton to any destination.  Hitherto, this easement has only applied for journeys into Zone 1.

On enquiry at Reading about contactless fare paying, it seems that this only issues singles, i.e go off peak and return off peak (4 touches with the CC) and the system charges you for TWO singles, i.e no CDR!

No information available about capping.

Mess....

OTC

Yes, that is right.  All of the movement on train fares is towards single ticket pricing.  The singles on Contactless will be about half of the current off-peak day returns.

No capping will apply initially.  https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2019/december/tfl-rail-will-operate-services-to-reading-from-15-december

"While TfL is working to deliver capping, customers who should have benefitted from daily capping will automatically be reimbursed to ensure they pay the best fare for their travel."

TfL does in fact publish its contactless fares. For Paddington to Reading their single is £24.40 peak (0630-0930, 1600 - 1900) and £10.60 off peak (2 Jan 2020). This compares with present GWR peak of  £25.10 and £20.60 off peak. The GWR CDR is therefore good value compared to TfL's offerings if returning on a "peak" off peak train!

How one could one convince a RP inspector on a daytime Didcot stopper that one had paid contactless to Reading?....

The morning up GWR TT (p30 ofT10 with the red markers) shows some exclusions to OP that I don't understand. The strangest is the 0852 from Reading, barred from Reading  to Taplow, then OP except for West Drayton and Hayes!

The PM peak from Paddington looks a little clearer in that it is really from 1650 - 1820 inclusive for semi-fasts (except for the 1756!)

Greetings.

OTC

That's the only fare I have seen (in a press release). They were not in the mayoral decision on price increases, presumably because there were no old fares for them to have increased from. Nor are they on the page about new prices from 2nd January ... presumably because no-one thought of it.

If you ask the OJP, it's doing its usual thing of trying to make sense of the rules as fed to it (Thames Valley Branches ranger included - still). So it does offer CPAY as the right choice off-peak, as singles or both way. So it should as it's cheaper, at £10.60 vs £21.20 or half of £21.30.  It spoils the effect slightly by flagging the fare option as "advance" - presumably no-one's given it the right flag word yet.

However, it doesn't offer the peak CPAY as an option, either way, insisting for example on a day single on the return leg if you choose two single tickets. It should, as it is also cheaper at £24.40 vs £25.90 or half of £48.90. And look, yes, that anytime day return has gone down in price!

So as expected the CPAY (single) fares are a little below half the GWR return that's equivalent (sort of). For existing, and zonal, PAYG fares inwards of WDT the same is true except that there are (AFAICS) no off-peak paper ticket fares. Hence the odd effect of different peak time rules didn't apply there, but does further out.

Presumably - while nothing has been said about altering those TfL rules for this line, it might be implied by the promise about matching GWR fares, and something of the kind is done on Euston-Watford. But the lack of peak CPAY fares on OJP removes the possibility of using that as way of checking what rules are encoded in the data feeds.

One thing to remember here is that contactless does not give a railcard discount

All contactless fares are available on TfL's 'single fare finder.
https://tfl.gov.uk/fares/find-fares/tube-and-rail-fares/single-fare-finder?intcmp=54716

Type in the stations and then select 2020 fares.

From GWR website (https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/contactless-payment?utm_source=leisure_customers&utm_medium=email&utm_term=booknow&utm_content=EB1083739&utm_campaign=CPAY_20)


shocking way of claiming delay/repay though - enough to put you off using contactless frankly!

Moving away from the TfL Rail v GWR in the Thames Valley corridor scenario, the above statement is not true. Many eastbound journeys through Paddington during the evening Peak are charged at Peak rates - something only recently introduced by GWR. For instance, an afternoon single from Exeter St Davids to Southend rises from £88.50 before 2pm thru £136.30 in the Off-Peak window to £151.70 in the Peak window. Splitting the ticket at PAD is the cheapest option with such journeys.

But that text IS referring to GWR/TfL Rail in the Thames Valley - you can't suddenly & arbiterally apply the ssame text to elsewhere on the GWR network :-)

I'm not sure why you'd see those higher fares offered. Currently, for travel tomorrow, the OJP offers the super off-peak single at £102.30 throughout the afternoon and evening. It has no restrictions in the evening that I can see for this journey. The £88.50 fare is a 1st Advance, and that is offered (even for tomorrow) on a random selection of trains, including the 14:53 that arrives PAD 17:12 and to leave Liverpool St 1817 - which is surely evening peak.

OK - so I misread the Super Off Peak Single price, but gwr.com is currently only offering these prices for Fri 03/01/20......

(https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1jd4uCJbubVBIMZflvDu_uYC0K_QHg0vH)

There is a big difference of opinion between the two journey planners (GWR and NRE) here. They agree about which trains still have the £88.50 1st advance available, including at 13:40 and 14:53 (others have disappeared recently). I picked an SSS on the 14:15 on NRE, which was only offered by GWR as an SDS. It passed me on to GWR.com to buy it, where I saw:

Now, that could happen with an Advance - but for any form of off-peak ticket, when you buy it doesn't alter its availability! So they are reading the rules (or should that be runes?) differently. It doesn't matter if GWR coded this restriction code (XC, according to BRFares) - they are still meant to implement the same data feeds as all other OJPs. As I said, I see no outward restrictions in that code after the morning peak.

The creation of these restriction codes is a very cumbersome system, easy to get wrong. For example, at the bottom of the text version of that code (at  https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/XC) it says this:

So that'll be the 20th, then?

I also note that if you select an SSS on GWR's OJP, and follow a link for information, it says this:

Is that saying they know they don't implement validity rules in full? And you'd be advised to us the NRE OJP first and transfer to GWR.com to buy the ticket?

I had that the other day - picked a route on NRE, when it went through to GWR it said it was not available. Went back to NRE, selected GA and purchased it from them no problem what so ever.

When I tried to pick the route myself on GWR rather than on NRE, it refused to offer it to me. When I selected something close, it insisted on me having a Single Advance rather than the Return I wanted - stuffed if I could work out how to get the return. The GWR site really is absolute shite.

Can any regular users of the GWR.com JP/booking engine confirm that this is a new issue? I don't recall it being mentioned before the timetable change (or perhaps the more recent ticketing change with PAYG/contactless from Reading).

Yes, I've had this problem, but can't remember whether it was before or after the timetable change. I'm pretty certainl that it was before the fares increase date though.

I took it up with NRE twitter & tweeted them a couple of screenshots & they said it would be investigated. I suggest those able to do the same as the Rail Delivery Group that run both the NRE website/twitter feed and the data table that the OJP is looking up. The more queries they gwet, the more likely that something will be done

Glad it’s not just me who thinks this when it comes to buying tickets on the GWR website. So much so that I will use any other TOC websites to buy tickets now. It’s a horrible interface.

I too have had an issue with GWR advance fares appearing on other ticket sites but not on the GWR website.

Somethings not right there. That and the issue I had with not receiving Nectar points which I have finally received after numerous emails between me and GWR Customer services  ::)

The current issue isn't with Advance fares - it's possible, though undesirable, for those to appear differently on different search engines due to timing of their running our and latencies. The same can happen with air tickets, after all. But this time it's off-peak fares that GWR.com is saying are not available (because not valid) when NRE says they are. That should never happen.

A couple of days ago, someone on www.reading-forum.co.uk posted about such a leaflet and later made another post: "Here's the Flyer", which I took to be his attempt to provide a hyperlink. Only it isn't one. I'm not registered with the Forum, so I can't nudge him. I spent a few minutes looking for one on the GWR website and by Googling, and only got something relating to 2014.

I suspect that I could note down the trains from a timetable for myself (just five GWR services plus any TFL train). And I may have time to kill at Reading Station tomorrow and, if so, I shall ask for the leaflet.

Marlburian

Back in December, onthecushions cited leaflet 641894 and lamented its absence from GWR's web site. I recently got hold of one, and have posted its picture here. Having peered intently at it for a while, I can see a couple of differences from the printed versions, both trains not allowed on the leaflet:

17:27 semifast - as the leaflet says it's for "departures to Reading", then they are right as this one only goes to Maidenhead. However, these evening restrictions (as in timetable T10) are now the same for all destinations short of Reading, so perhaps they should have changed that wording.

19:18 to Swansea - in this case the PDF on the website (TS) has been altered to show this as a peak service.

There wasn't a little card version as there used to be, though it would be easy enough to shorten the list by simply saying "all TfL Rail trains are OK". Or would this be easier to remember?
GWR trains are not off-peak from 16:00 until:
17:30 for trains calling at Slough
18:30 for trains calling at Twyford
19:25 for any train

Thanks for that, Stuving. Handy, as my first visit to London since the new timetable was introduced is next week. My business will be completed by around 1700, so it's a choice between catching one of the very few semi-fast trains listed or killing time - something I can do in the summer wandering around parks and Olde London, but not so pleasant in February.

But that's a strange cluster of FGW trains: 1849, another seven minutes later and a third 11 minutes after that.

I wonder how many "off-peak" people will get on other trains unwittingly or trying their luck. On the 125s there never seemed to be a ticket check.

The 19.02 train to Temple Meads via Bath Spa is off peak, so presumably that should read any train after 19.00?

That may be so going to BRI, but not to RDG which is what the leaflet was about. Indeed, it's super off-peak, and there are other off-peak ones before that.

Ah yes, I should have read the thread in more detail.  :)

The announcements on that train are slightly confusing, as they says that super off-peak tickets are not valid, and then add afterwards that they are valid if travelling to Swindon or beyond (by which time some people will have switched off from hearing it).

I get the train to Trowbridge from Chippenham before 9:00am and this is always off peak. I presume all TranWilts journeys are off peak regardless of time? Curiously when using the self service machine there is an on peak option which is double the price! It's not very clear. The ticket barriers won't let me in though but the GWR staff always let me through :)

In that direction, the restriction on a day return for both legs is:

Starting at Trowbridge, the cut-off time is 9:30.

I'm sure that makes perfect sense, really.

No - from Chippenham the 06:27 train to Trowbridge is a peak train, and the 05:23, 07:09 and 07:42 from Trowbridge to Melksham are also peak trains.

There are three day return fares from Chippenham to Trowbridge
1.  The any permitted route, any time ticket at £10.20
2.  The via Melksham, any time ticket at £6.90
3.  The via Melksham, off peak ticket valid on any train timed to depart after 08:44, at £5.90


Lovely.

To add ... Gaz, your train leaves Swindon at 08:44 and for anyone travelling from Swindon that is still - just - off peak, as the same restrictions on off peak apply from Swindon.  There was a bit of adjustment before the December timetable change to ensure that running it earlier (it used to be 08:53) didn't hike up all the fares when the next train isn't until after 11 O'Clock.

Ah okay, thanks... makes sense! It's been FREE this week, because the train hasn't arrived  ;)

As a gentleman of a very certain age, I need to bear in mind where toilets are available. Until a year ago, I visited London a couple of times a month and over five or six hours would drink a fair amount of liquid (but hardly any alcohol), especially as I have a dry mouth. (And in summer heat we are enjoined to drink lots of water.)

This week's visit includes lunch with a close friend in a Strand restaurant, then coffee with another friend in Highgate. No problems with getting to Paddington afterwards, but I'm conscious that, given the very limited rush-hour choice, I may end up on a TfL train that takes 55 minutes or so (plus any delays) to Reading without any toilets.

I was not impressed by the TfL explanation that the average Crossrail journey will take 20 minutes.

So I'll be limiting my liquid intake. Fingers crossed for my journey - but hopefully I won't have to cross my legs.

Marlburian

I've moved this here - it was in response to a post on another thread.


I should modify that. Somebody has been tinkering! But one result is a new (I think) contradiction.

First, the restriction code: from Slough, the CDR code is O9 - a new version starting today (9/3/20). Its text list of banned trains does not include the earlier semifasts marked in red in (the old) T10 - 16:50 & 16:56. The "unpublished restrictions" (which feed all OJPs, remember) don't match the text - the gap in blackout times is 1654-1657 (exclusive), catching the 16:50 and letting the 16:56 pass.

The current on-line timetable T10 (a PDF created on 20/2/20, with an "updated" flash on the cover) shows the 16:56 as OK on off-peak tickets - but not the 16:50, which is cyan (I think that had changed from red already?). So if this was intended, the text list in code O9 is wrong. However, the OJP is right by the (now) published timetable. Has there been any publicity for this relaxation? If I'm in Reading tomorrow (and I remember -  important caveat these days) I'll look for a new handout.

No new leaflet - just the same 641894. But there were copies of the new "updated" (and new season's colourway) timetable booklet.