Great Western Coffee Shop

My understanding is that contactless payment should now be accepted on all services fast and slow between London and Reading. However, GWR website is not particularly clear on this, and I'm finding that neither ticket office staff at Reading nor many train managers on long distance services have any understanding of this. Repeated advice I've received at Reading ticket office is that contactless is only valid on TfL services, while I've now faced two rather bemused train managers on long distance GWR services who have had to ring their control for advice on what to do when I explain why I'm travelling without a ticket.

Using contactless to travel between Reading and London costs £24.40 peak and £10.60 off peak. The equivalent peak or off peak return paper tickets cost £48.90 and £21.20 so using contactless both ways will save you 10p on the paper tickets. However while a paper peak single ticket is a bit more than half a return at £25.90, a paper single off peak costs £21.20 only 10p less than the return. This means some much bigger savings are possible if you want to travel in the peak in one direction and off peak in the other, as using contactless you can buy a combination of peak and off peak tickets for £35, whereas doing the same for paperless costs £47.10. For someone like me who commutes occasionally into London and generally goes in early and back late this provides a nice saving.

To add the confusion, the definition of peak and off peak is different for contactless and paper tickets. In the evening from London, going contactless you are charged peak fare on any service if you tap in between 16:00 and 19:00, whereas an off peak paper ticket allows you to travel on a whole host of stopping services (mainly the TfL services) during this time.

This means one can now see a small group of wised up travellers loitering by the gate line at Paddington wanting to catch the 19:02 fast train to Reading, who all tap in as soon as the clock ticks past 19:00 and then run down the platform to jump on the train for £10.60. Meanwhile those with off peak paper tickets have to stand and watch or pay £25.90 for a peak single.

https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/contactless-payment

Those are pretty much the questions I was asking earlier, on various threads.

Inwards from West Drayton, where contactless and Oyster were already in use, the GWR paper tickets have the same role as TfL paper tickets - a painfully expensive backup for those without cards, and an inducement to use them. But here it's a bit different, as without Oyster there is still a need for paper tickets, and the prices "match" - sort of.

I see what you mean about that GWR page of information being vague. It talks about accepting contactless, without separating the two different meanings of that - accepting at a station, by providing tap-in barriers, and accepting on trains as a valid ticket.

The official rules for using contactless might be found in the restriction code for it; and it does have one (PQ, for off-peak). However, it isn't a real code as it's not a real ticket in all respects. And the NRE journey planner doesn't recognise it, and offer it as a fare. From West Drayton inwards, a little message appears in the OJP saying what the contactless/Oyster cost would be "from" (i.e. off-peak). The words there, and on the page it links to, don't saying anything about specific journeys or trains, though. And from Reading, even that isn't shown.

What does code PQ say, for what it's worth? The ticket code is POC  CPAY OFFPK INFO; I assume INFO means for information only, not defining a proper ticket. The words mention Oyster, and capping, since the code applies to all contactless journeys. It defines the time validity as
"Not valid to depart   any location   0630–0930   on any TOC"
 - but of course it works off tap-in time, not departure time. Anytime tickets don't have restriction codes, but peak contactless (PAC CPAY PEAK INFO) does: code PI. It has this limitation:
"Not valid to depart   any location   0931–2359   on any TOC".
And, to make the point that it's not a proper ticket, in the validity section (i.e. what future days) it says "NOT FOR TRAVEL (1 day)".

The text version is more sensible, and it is available at www.nationalrail.co.uk/pq (and /pi):

But we knew all that anyway, for PAYG as a whole. How this is all supposed to work out to Reading is still a bit of a puzzle, especially given the very different system of peak/off-peak acceptance on GWR trains in the evening.

I am fairly sure we were told by TFL that contctless travel west of West Drayton would be confined to TFL services only.

Definitely told Oyster only as far as West Drayton.

I've tried to get my cousin who works on ITSO cards to explain how contactless can calculate the correct fare but I'm still baffled. ???

I'm sure I've seen people tapping out at Taplow....given that it's virtually TfL services only now, I'm guessing that would work OK?

I think you may be confusing ITSO with PAYG. Not surprising, as it is confusing.

Oyster is PAYG, and works out your fare (or fares - added daily) afterwards from your tap-ins and -outs.

Oyster cards are not ITSO, as that was invented since Oyster was set up. All readers are (or soon sill be) able to read anything; Oyster, ITSO, money card (EMV). What makes a system PAYG is the back-office processing to work out charges and to handle credits and debitting.

ITSO cards can hold PAYG credit, if they are signed up to a host PAYG system. TfL could do this, but have not yet done so (I think this is the second generation Oyster card, which they have put on indefinite hold).

SWR have just (September 2019) launched such a PAYG service using ITSO cards, called Tap2Go (this may warrant a thread of its own). It should work on anyone's card, not just theirs (now branded as Touch, like GWR's). Looking at the map for this, it only works outside the Oyster area and there is no overlap - so journeys through Feltham can't use either (unless you get out and the same little dance with the barriers needed between a paper ticket and Oyster).

There was a DfT consultation on PAYG in February 2019 (Pay-as-you-go on rail Consultation: Moving Britain Ahead (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=10&ved=2ahUKEwjer8i-_ajnAhWGTcAKHX_wCLkQFjAJegQIAxAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fassets.publishing.service.gov.uk%2Fgovernment%2Fuploads%2Fsystem%2Fuploads%2Fattachment_data%2Ffile%2F776998%2Fpayg-rail-consultation-doc.pdf&usg=AOvVaw3S4UaAawQo6x9FM1cIUwsm)). The document covers all this stuff, and shows where they (who?) want to extend PAYG to - notably Reading-Gatwick, around here.

From Contactless Payment is Here (https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/contactless-payment) (as referred to above):

"To support TfL Rail’s payment option, we are also offering Contactless pay as you go at all stations on the direct line between London Paddington and Reading."

Can't see any ambiguity there really, especially as later on it specifically excludes the GWR branch services. If the intention was this to mean at GWR-managed stations on TfL services it falls down.

I don't think that's the relevant bit - as I said before, that says you can tap in and out but not which trains you can use. The next paragraph is the one:

That till doesn't say loud and clear "when using PAYG you can travel on GWR or TfL trains". But it does strongly imply it; otherwise it would be saying the fares are the same on GWR trains but you can't use them.

Of course that still leaves some open questions about peak/off-peak and the different Tfl and GWR rules for them.

Another piece of evidence is the latest edition of "London’s Rail & Tube services" (https://www.nationalrail.co.uk/London_Rail_Tube_Map_Dec2019.pdf) which has been extended out to Reading and includes separate lines for TfL Rail and GWR to Reading both within the PAYG boundary and outside the Oyster boundary.

Does that mean the map distinguishes between the two boundaries? The last one (May 2019) didn't.

The words in the Oyster box did, however, remind us that PAYG can charge different fares for different services on the same route. In theory. This was something we speculated about beforehand for Reading/Paddington (i.e. a Gatwick Express kind of set-up), but as it has not been announced can we dismiss it entirely?

As an aside, someone unfamiliar with the London and the South East and looking at that map might be confused by apparently being able to head both west from Reading and south from central London to get to Guildford!

I've just asked GWR on twitter as the information on the GWR site is far from clear. Firstly they referred me straight back to their unclear information (sigh) so I asked explicitly if I was on a GWR train between Paddington and Maidenhead having paid by contactless what would happen if there was a ticket check

The reply "Yes, this can be checked on board by tapping your contactless card/phone onto the staff's reader"

So I will keep that as proof if nothing else..

I can't find anywhere that will tell me what the contactless fairs would be though?

I think TfL's single fare finder is the only place. I found that confusing before PAYG went live, as the big red flag saying the fares didn't exist masked the year selector. That's a question of familiarity, but I wonder how many users of PAYG within London ever look up single fares - after all, they are either "not much" or "capped anyway". Maybe the main users of the SFF will be out-of-towners.

They appear on the likes of www.brfares.com set by GWR, although incorrectly stating an Oyster card is needed.

I asked at the Reading enquiries desk how to respond to GWR RP inspectors if I'd paid contactlessly. I was told that their "machine" could read a card (e.g a VISA debit!) and tell if it had been touched in.

I remember telling a similar tale to loud mobile users in coach A; that speaking loudly wrecked the battery!

I'm as intrigued to know that one can write to flash memory on a bank card, as I am to find that I can travel with a TfL off peak ticket (c£10) in the last 20 minutes of the  GWR evening peak.

Enjoy the debate

OTC

This has regularly been discussed in another rail forum, and I don’t believe they can tell if a contactless bank card is touched in at all. On TfL they can only tell that on buses, because the bus can provide the inspector with a list of recently touched in card numbers.  Nothing is ever written to a contactless bank card, unlike Oyster.

On Underground, DLR, trams and trains, they can tell only if a contactless bank card has previously been hotlisted, and if not then the on board check just records a ‘touch in’. The back office will work out later if the card was already showing “in the system” at that time, otherwise it will charge a maximum cash fare.

Paul

There are now leaflets available at Reading explaining contactless - though in reality they are about contactless PAYG, and do not take care to distinguish the two as TfL do. Of course they can say that from Reading the two are the same thing as Oyster isn't usable, but there are aspects of PAYG they just don't mention. And I'm sure some of what they say is only true to/from Paddington, such as the evening peak times. And no - it's not just my scanner; the paper does have a blue cast the the green isn't GWR green.

That leaflet (more of a card, really) directs you to tfl.gov.uk/modes/tfl-rail, but you need to poke about somewhat to find the relevant extra details. One thing I found there is this page, which explains capping for trips in the Reading-Iver zoneless zone:National Rail fares, caps and Travelcards beyond Zone 9 (http://National Rail fares, caps and Travelcards beyond Zone 9).

That says (I think) that the caps applying to the rest of the network still operate, but journeys into the elsewhere zone are not counted in them. However, there is something so like capping that everyone - except TfL - is going to call it that:
Obviously that should read Reading to Iver inclusive.

Presumably it's not called capping because many of the things they say about capping don't apply to it. However, I think it will need a name of some kind, needed even to talk about that kind of distinction.

But you can't use an SWR touch card even though their trains call there.

Well, you can but you have to show it to the gateline staff who know that the barriers do not work properly.

Geoff Marshall's latest video demonstrates how contactless split ticketing can save money by breaking a PAD-RDG journey on TfL Rail at SLO:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljN3xRWAkCE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljN3xRWAkCE)

Interesting; really "just" splitting coming to TfL.   But if you split contactless you can't (in practise) stay on the same train as you have to swipe out and back in again.  Single peak fare, though, drops from £24.40 to £14.30.  If you split same journey, same way on paper tickets (no need to swipe out and back in, but much be on a train that calls) peak fare drops from a paper £25.90 to a paper £20.20. 

if you swipe in and Padd in the evening peak and get off and swipe out at Slough, Maidenhead, Twyford or Reading whta fare are you charged?

Looking at National Rail and doing a day retrun from Maidenhead to Padd leaving after 10:00 and returning after16:00 it gives me any out but it gives the 16:56 Padd Maidenehad at off Peak price, this train is shown as peak from Padd in the timetable!

Evne odder if you do similar timing for a return from Bourne End you get no services between15:56 and 18:49 from Padd. However, if you add via Taplow you get the Off Peak return fare for TFL trains in the evening peak!

I'm baffled!

 

Or confused? I don't think the National Rail OJP knows anything about PAYG (including contactless); it will only tell you about "paper" tickets (covered by RSP rules). So you should pay the fares TfL's single fare finder shows (also given in BRFares with CPAY in the ticket name): for Slough that's £8.70.

As to the next bit ... that does seem odd; it's not a contradiction between GWR's different versions as they all say the 18:56 is not allowed.

I should modify that. Somebody has been tinkering! But one result is a new (I think) contradiction. Of course this isn't about contactless at all ... so the reply is her (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=22590.msg283509#msg283509)e.

I paid by contactless the other day (Mai to Pad) when there was a ticket check and there was no way for them to check that I had paid it seems.. Though they did believe me and reminded me to touch out at Paddington

Just seen that capping has now been activated (and backdated) for contactless fares out west. A table has been put up on the excellent Oyster Rail website:

https://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/2020/05/capping-to-reading-luton-airport-etc/

They don't seem particularly surprising and don't seem to offer any major savings over paper tickets - unless anyone can see anything I haven't (have to admit I have mainly looked at Twyford as that is where I will be commuting from soon).

Are there contactless readers on the platforms at Reading, or does one have to go over to the gateline to tap out? I will be transferring from an Elizabeth Line service there onto a Thames Valley local with only a few minutes to spare.

The portable card reader keeps an encrypted record of your contactless card/device and the check is done later by the "back office" system; all the inspector has to do is allow the reader to read the card and doesn't need to believe you or not. If you hadn't touched in, your card would go on a naughty list later in the day and if you keep doing it then you'll find the card isn't accepted for travel at all, won't work gates or validators and may be flagged by the portable reader on a future journey at which point you will be treated as intentionally travelling ticketless so potentially up for prosecution rather than just a penalty fare.  Much like not buying a paper ticket, you might get away with not paying if you're lucky but the more you do it, the more likely you are to get caught.
 
The reminder to touch out is probably aimed at people who think that having been checked on the train there's no need to do anything at the end of the journey if your train happened to come into an ungated platform at Paddington.  As for an unchecked journey, if you don't touch out you'll generally be charged more than the correct fare to discourage attempts to play the system.