Great Western Coffee Shop

Whilst I was born at the swan song of mainline steam in this country, I do ‘know’ that the King class locomotiveS were not permitted over the Royal Albert Bridge (Saltash) due to their weight and thus the 2-6-2s would have been Castles (or something smaller?)

I need to get my history books out, but I think that prohibition ended in 1960 when the RAB was strengthend?

IIRC more recently modern computer modelling discovered that this made it worse (I am sure I read that somewhere but cannot now find it) so the extra steel added in 1969 was all taken off and something different done by NR between 2011 and 2014. Does anyone else have a better memory of this?

Fast facts:
- Over 100 tonnes of new steelwork
- 40 diagonal bracings will be strengthened
- 132 load bearing cross girders will be repaired
- 205 original Brunel cross girders will be repaired
- 12 coats of old paint, dating to 1859, will be removed
- 4 coats of new paint will be applied
- 1,000 tonnes of grit blast abrasive will be extracted
- 1,800 individual steelwork repairs

More analysis (http://eandt.theiet.org/magazine/2010/07/brunel-bridge.cfm) here

Um yes.
I remember seeing a King at Truro shed almost at the end of the steam era on Sunday afternoon.
Dad was driving back home and we saw steam coming from the line, so parked up and went on the platform.
King Edward (or was there a Henry?) looking very dirty and sad.
Wasn't really into train spotting, so didn't note anything else.
Just sticks in my mind.

I suppose a King could be towed across RAB without the weight of coal and water and then fired up elsewhere...?

Please forgive someone who (sshhh!) was brought up on 4EPBs - but how much difference really is there between a Castle and a King?  (Question asked in ex GWR locomotive terms, obviously)

The King is heavier - another 10 tons for the loco.  Another 3 tons axle load.  The increased power also presumably increased the dynamic load as well. 

Normally they were the same colour. 

Thanks stuving this was the bit I remembered:


I remember seeing the persex model in the 1970's at Derby. 


Whatever if the original strengthening work was done in 1969 - doubt if the Kings were permitted across the RAB before then end of steam.

Pedant mode: the RAB is not the only rail link between Cornwall and the rest of Britain. Calstock viaduct still carries passengers across the border as well.
In 1960, there were five working lines that crossed the border. I imagine the bridges across the Tamar of the other three were much less impressive (never seen any photos of any of them, strangely enough) as the crossings were further north.

Working from South to North, I'd say the five railways that crossed the Border from ENGLAND into Cornwall are/were at and opened by,

1. Plymouth - Penzance Cornish Main Line at St Budeaux/Saltash Royal Albert Bridge (Cornwall Railway)

2. Bere Alston - Callington Line at Calstock Viaduct (Plymouth, Devonport and South-Western Junction Railway)

3. Plymouth to Launceston Line at Launceston (near Launceston Rugby Club & A30) (Launceston & South Devon Railway) Closed to Passengers 31/12/1962 Freight 28/2/1966

4. Halwill to Launceston Line at Launceston (North Cornwall Railway) Closed 3/10/1966

5. Halwill to Bude Line, Crossed into Cornwall Near Box's Shop (London & South Western Railway) Closed 3/10/1966

Moderators - just a thought - we've had quite a lot of typical Coffee Shop thread draft on this topic. Perhaps it should now be entitled "Random Thoughts on Route Availability of GWR Steam Engines and Associated Matters"?  ;D

A "form 1"

now thats a name I have not heard in a long time.

Looks to me like a King is blue and a Castle is green ...

Looking on Google maps I found the remnants of a masonry viaduct abutment in the River Tamar just by where the river runs parallel to Launceston rugby club, so that’s one former England to Cornwall crossing

I dimly recall that route availability for GWR locos was shown with a coloured circle painted on the loco in line with the colours on the map.  Castles were originally in the most restricted class and so had a red circle, when kings came along they did not make another colour so they added an additional red circle so that was double red. 

"A King is double red; a Castle is red..."

Huh??

Request to forum design. As well as a 'like' button, can we have a 'what on earth?' button.

All I can come up with is that it is a reference to Chess - which I have never mastered. If not, and after 24 hours, can I have another guess?

There's a whole nother debate to be had as to what shade of green was used on GWR locos. My Dad would get quite aerated if you had the temerity to suggest that they were painted Brunswick green, but according to some that's just what BR called GWR loco green. Anyone have a definitive answer?

Bob Shephard, owner and paint chemist of Precision Paints until 2004, writes in 2018:

"From my past researches, most railways were fairly particular about their loco and coach colours but not about wagon and building colours. The main problem with colour matching in pre-WW2 days was that all pigments were natural, and varied in shade. This made colour matching very time consuming, and accurate colour matching extremely difficult. The other problem was that locos and coaches all had varnish coats over the colour coat, because gloss finish paints were non-existent until synthetics came along. And because the varnishes were all natural, they were a dark brown shade so this effected the appearance of the paint coat. Locos also had 3 or 4 coats and it is the varnish in paint that discolours with heat. Thus loco paint was a different, darker, shade after about a week after application! You will see on the Phoenix catalogue that there are 4 different shades of GWR Loco Green listed. Actually there was only 1 shade between 1881 and 1945, and one shade prior to this, on the 1875 livery panel. (The 1875 shade was discontinued by Phoenix though).

When I colour matched them I had the original GWR livery panels from Swindon Works, to work with: 1875, 1881, 1906, 1928 and 1945 dated full livery panels, complete with lining. Where the varnish coats had chipped off, the actual colour of the Loco Green was the same from 1881 right up to the 1945 panel. The 1875 Loco Green was different to all the other panels – it was quite a bit darker, and a bit browner too. On the backs of all the panels were instructions for the number of coats of paint and varnish to be applied. As the panels got newer, so the number of varnish coats reduced from 5 coats on the 1875 panel to none on the 1945 panel. During WW2, the way of making synthetic paints, varnishes and pigments was discovered, and the last GWR panel – 1945 (must have been produced late in the year, after the war ended) was full gloss synthetic paint and was not varnished. This showed the true colour of GWR Locomotive Green, and it matched, exactly, all the other panels, from 1881, where the varnish coats had been chipped off.

As another 'aside', many refer to GWR Locomotive Green as Middle Chrome Green. This is not actually correct. Middle Chrome Green was the pigment colour used to make the GWR Locomotive Green, which is what it was called on the backs of all the panels."

Roger, its a reference to the debate about the colour of King class locomotives and their route classification.  If you read the topic completely you will see that we debated the locos being painted BLUE in the early BR days.  Of course if you try to explain that to any GWR 'expert' they will argue and always believe they were only painted GWR GREEN!  The reference to Red or Double Red is the Route Availability classification, all GWR heavy locos being Red but the Kings being the heaviest of all GWR locos, being Double Red.  See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_Power_and_Weight_Classification

Here is a photograph showing the Double Red discs below the number plate on the cab side:

(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7d/4e/f1/7d4ef18ca47f4aa774ec4a06663b2e46.jpg)

...and it was applied to early WR diesel locomotives as well:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/D6343%2C_d7072_-_old_oak_common_-_1965.jpg)

Roger, its a reference to the debate about the colour of King class locomotives and their route classification.  If you read the topic completely you will see that we debated the locos being painted BLUE in the early BR days.  Of course if you try to explain that to any GWR 'expert' they will argue and always believe they were only painted GWR GREEN!  The reference to Red or Double Red is the Route Availability classification, all GWR heavy locos being Red but the Kings being the heaviest of all GWR locos, being Double Red.  See here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Western_Railway_Power_and_Weight_Classification

I would doubt it would come back via North Cornwall Railway (NCR).

Light West Country/Battle of Britain Pacifics were allowed on the NCR but once rebuilt were banned as too heavy. In fact, in rebuilt form, they were only allowed over Meldon Viaduct after it was strengthened in Summer 1961 I believe.

Of course it would have to travel back by rail in any case. Often when heavier trains than normal travel over a line a speed restriction is imposed on them. I would suspect that maybe the loco travelled 'light engine' with a restriction of 5mph over the RAB.

Perhaps someone with more knowledge, or a member of the Cornwall Railway Society would have more information for us?

A friend living in Falmouth told me the story of its return to Plymouth. The loco was turned at Penance, the fire dropped and towed back to St Blazey. At St. Blazer the engine was split from the tender but the CE Dept would not let the engine to be towed back over the RAB without lightening so the boiler was emptied of water and the coupling rods removed which placated the CE Dept to an extent and a small prairie tank was used to tow the engine from Saltash having  been brought from SB by an 28xx.