Great Western Coffee Shop

The following link is to an article suggesting that the Okehampton service may be at risk.
http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=141529&command=displayContent&sourceNode=141513&contentPK=20305597&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

Derek Redgwell, of Devon's Campaign for Better Transport, said he was anxious about what any review of ECT's business would mean for the Dartmoor line and, in particular, the summer Sunday service from Exeter and Exmouth to Okehampton.

He said: "I believe ECT believe the Government is keen to keep smaller lines within the main franchises rather than have micro-franchises but we believe there is still a role for ECT here."

H6 EXETER CENTRAL - CREDITON

1 Route Definition
(a) Services shall be provided between Exeter Central and Crediton calling at Exeter St Davids. Services may continue to or start from Okehampton as specified by Devon County Council.

(b) The service is dependent on funding from Devon County Council. If this is stopped the service shall be discontinued

2 Frequency

Sundays (Summer only)

Between 0830 and 2030, five services shall be provided at two-hourly intervals. One interval may be extended to 2 hours 30 minutes.

I can help here Lee - the Sunday Okehampton service will definitely run this year, funded by Devon County Council, but the hope for next year and beyond is/was that the second platform at Yeoford would be brought back into use and a Dartmoor Railway service run to connect with Exeter - Barnstaple FGW trains there.

We will have to see what happens now with the sale of ECT Rail.

Thanks Richard. Would the Yeoford-Okehampton service be year-round, and if not, are there any plans for such a service?

Further news and views regarding the situation of the Okehampton line:

http://www.thisisdevon.co.uk/displayNode.jsp?nodeId=141529&command=displayContent&sourceNode=141513&contentPK=20340334&moduleName=InternalSearch&formname=sidebarsearch

I can help here Lee - the Sunday Okehampton service will definitely run this year, funded by Devon County Council, but the hope for next year and beyond is/was that the second platform at Yeoford would be brought back into use and a Dartmoor Railway service run to connect with Exeter - Barnstaple FGW trains there.

We will have to see what happens now with the sale of ECT Rail. 

A sad day indeed.   ECT's move does mean that the Sunday trains are now in jeopardy.  I know urgent discussions are taking place to see if they can still run.

It said that it was confident that the railway, which had more than 20,000 visitors last year, had a "great future".

It said: "We already have a number of parties interested in taking on the challenge and opportunity."

Video link here too:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7350000/newsid_7354800/7354854.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws=1 (http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_7350000/newsid_7354800/7354854.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm&news=1&bbcws=1)

Lets hope that Devon CC and FGW can come to some arrangement regarding Summer Sunday services, but, of course, there would be no station facilities available (cafe, ticket counter) etc.

Does anyone know if any of the other local heritage lines (e.g. West Somerset or Bodmin & Wenford) are interested in running the line?

A real shame, I've done the line once and it was very good, despite being very short!

I'm sure Jim will testify that they do a very good breakfast in that caf^!

Yep!

When is a regular service from Oakhampton to Exeter (and preferable beyond) going to start?

It needs to

I think people would use the Okehampton line for commuting etc, the Okehampton line is actually quite fast (line speed 60mph), lets not forget people going to college in Okehampton, and with a free bus link to the town.......... it could be done if the trains were extensions of some Exmouth and Waterloo services thus keeping cost's down.

 There are also some very long sections of 40 mph.

 There are also some very long sections of 40 mph.

Friends & Volunteers meeting, Tuesday April 22nd
There will be a meeting for volunteers and friends on Tuesday April 22nd at 7.30 pm at Fairplace Church, Okehampton (opposite the Post Office) to explore possible ways forward.

The problem with having a service to Plymouth via Oakhampton, would be that trains would have to reverse. :(

And with almost EVERY thing running therse days being Units thats not a problem, by the time the passengers have left or entered the train, the driver has already walked to the other end.

The only service that needs the loco to run round is the Sleeper train, and there is plenty of slack in the Night Train times.

And where exactly does under normal operations the sleeper reverse.
Ans at the Paddington another 57 is put on the other end and at Penzance it backs into Long Rock.

Conner you misunderstand, it's only IF and it's a Bl**dy BIG IF, that if the Sleeper went via a rebuilt Okehampton-Bere Alston line it would require the Engine to Run Round at Plymouth and Exeter St David's.

I believe that those sections only apply to Loco's? units are near 60 all the way??

Fraid not.... For my sins I do sign Okehampton, for a start it's 40 all the way from Crediton to Mill Hill bridge just past Coleford  thats 5 miles.

Then 60 for a couple of miles, then 40 for another couple of miles around Bow, back to 60 until Corscombe then 40  all the way to Okehampton. Those are the unit speeds between Bow and corscombe it's 40 all the way for loco's

It's 17 miles from Crediton to Okehampton I reckon 10 of them (for units) are 40 mph.


I should say that this is the current set-up  **IF** the will was there you could raise those line speeds, this was the SW main line after all.

Anyone know what the linespeeds were in steam days?

According to the Friends of Dartmoor Railway two prospective purchasers have been going through a due diligence process.

Although the Dartmoor Railway is not part of the National Rail network and provides a heritage service to its three stations, it has provided an insight into alternative funding and operational approaches to running lines serving local communities. The Dartmoor line has its own team of engineers and proposals to restore through services to Plymouth via Tavistock have suggested that the Dartmoor Railway, rather than Network Rail, should be responsible for infrastructure north of St Budeaux in order to keep costs down. Transport Scotland is reportedly considering a similar arrangement to minimise costs for the Waverley line reopening project in the Scottish Borders.

Earlier this month E&HCT- a joint venture between ECT and another social enterprise, HCT - won a four-year contract from the Olympic Delivery Authority to provide drivers, buses, vehicle maintenance, route planning and timetabling to support the increasing number of workers employed on the 2012 Games sites in east London.

I must try and travel down there this year. Presumably you have to buy a return from Exeter St Davids as part of the Sunday Rover?

The Dartmoor rover is the only ticket valid on the Oke services

Other rover tickets, Freedom of South West, All Line etc will be valid to OKE (and SMC) for the first time this year along with ATOC staff passes. Think a CDR from EXD to OKE is ^4.50 rising to ^7.50 from PGN/TOT. The CDRs to OKE/SMC are only available from stations on the Barnstaple/Exmouth/Paignton lines and Totnes.

Cool - good to see. So, is Dartmoor Rover valid on Okey services? Or do you need a seperate ticket to get to Okehampton by train and then Rover on top of that?

Dartmoor Sunday Rover is valid on Okehampton trains.  Also this year, the Devon Day Ranger and Freedon of Devon and Cornwall railrover (and for that matter the All Line one) can all be used on Okehampton trains.

There will be normal Cheap Day Single and Cheap Day Return fares to/from Okehampton from stations in an area bounded by Totnes, Exmouth, Paignton and Barnstaple. 

What about Freedom of South West?

Yes, that too. 

Statt Travel IS valid on OKE services  ;D

Any ideas why Okehampton line doesn't appear on the county council website for the Dartmoor Rover?

http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport/public_transport/buses/services-4/sunday-rover.htm (http://www.devon.gov.uk/index/transport/public_transport/buses/services-4/sunday-rover.htm)

Although according to DCC, Wessex still exist and operate so.....

I have been impressed with the loads i've seen so far for St. James--Okehampton on Sundays.

ok just out of interest can anyone tell me if a buyer has been found?

if not an open access company with public shares is the way forward

it just says link below?

Yes,  I didn't understand that either ... I had to delete a lot of other posts during last night, including links to inappropriate sites and personal attacks on other members, but let this one stay (unaltered) as I saw nothing offensive in it.  I guess a link was missing, and I can only imagine what it would have contained!

Just noticed this .... I believe it was aimed to be a pisstake as opposed to posting a dodgy link. ;)

I saw what was posted before you deleted it all, Graham. I'm simply taking a neutral view on it.

There was no intention for the post ... just as a generally annoying thing to wind up the moderators! You see, I know stuff. ;)

I'm not sure how you can be so certain you saw all of the posts, Tom, and how you can be fully aware of the intention of each of them.  Perhaps you had better explain further.

You have a PM (that you haven't replied to).

see.... kind of gone off the subject yet again...

if anyones interested i was at okehampton today and took some photos and did a bit of video...sorry if the quality aint great also has the run down to dawlish... link below

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=JYPF6pysQPg

Looks good - may I grab a couple of stills and add them into this thread - perhaps use them at the page head for a month too??

Good news :)

Passenger services stated again over Easter on the Oke - Meldon stretch using a 'Thumper' unit.

Looks like the new owners are still up for the Yeoford interchange plus other developments:

http://www.dartmoor-railway.co.uk/

Well done to all, especially after the rather negative press coverage following ECT's pull-out.

I'm told the County Council have started works on the down platform at Yeoford in preperation for the services to Okehampton. There will be no FGW services from Exeter this year. Change at Yeoford for some form of 25mph contrivance to Okehampton.

If stock with CDL is used then they can run up to about 50 on the Oke branch I believe?

It is anticipated that the Sunday Rover service between St James' Park Exeter and Okehampton will be operated by First Great Western from Sunday 7th June 2009."

Might take a day off work in a few weeks and pop up there. I quite fancy a ride on that Thumper  :)

Timetable and fares information for summer Sunday Exeter-Okehamption service from FGW website:
http://www.firstgreatwestern.co.uk/Content.aspx?id=4055

And I have refreshed the route, just in case we get a little short handed. ;D

Ok pros. Get me the best ticketting for Truro > Exeter > Okehampton > (Bus) > Gunnislake > Plymouth > Truro (I hold a Devon and Cornwall Railcard too)

I am presuming
CDR Truro > Plymouth
Advance Single Plymouth > Exeter
Devon Sunday Rover for the rest.

but would like confirmation please.

Probably because you can't get through tickets as it's operated on behalf of Devon County Council, unless it's changed since I went 3 or 4 years ago -- we got separate tickets to Exeter and had to buy the Okehampton ticket on the train, which wasn't from a normal FGW ticket machine.

FGR run the Sunday Summer service without any probs but the difficulty is that the line owners don't want anything to interfere with freight services. Therefore imagine new signalling and a passing loop at Yeoford (perhaps) would be required

Timetable:

Trains leave Okehampton at 1000, 1230 and 1500

Trains leave Sampford Courtenay at 1030, 1300 and 1530

Fares:

Adults ^12  Children ^10  Infants ^5

For more information, or to book, please call Okehampton station on 01837 811240

Timetable:

Trains leaving at 0930, 1200, and 1430 from Okehampton

and

0945, 1215 and 1445 from Sampford Courtenay

Prices are ^9 for adults,  ^7 senior citizens, and ^5 for children

For more information, or to book, please call Okehampton station on 01837 811240

Unfortunately, yes: it's on three different weekends.  I'm sorry, but that's the software.  ::)

FallenAngel: I do appreciate that you have had a very trying evening.  So have I, in a way.

I'm only posting these items as a favour for someone - and the fact that the forum software works this way isn't my fault.

For the record - the precise dates, on three different weekends, are shown at http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?action=calendar;year=2009;month=12

C.  ;)

Now you see - the forum software sucks cos I didnt even know there was such a calendar!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
 ???

I'm calming down now but this is probably something that should either be fixed or disabled!  Cos it does look like the common forum bug (not here but elsewhere) of repeated posts

Strange that on reading the documents available that 'The Titfield Thunderbolt' came to mind.

I have been told that the operator will be getting some funding from the local council.

Exeter has been granted Unitary Status, which has prevoked much consternation and a review probably will be called for. If this review is unsuccessful the service will be going through two authorities which will add a layer of confusion to the plans.

"The Okehampton to Exeter Railway Line - last used by passenger services in 1972 "

Interesting quote. Presumably the Beeb can reference that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

What concerns me is it would take more than a few cranks to make the thing pay. You also have to bear in mind that if your average Devonian has to get in his / her car to access the public transport they will tend to drive the whole way or use an alternative mode of public transport. 

Ivybridge has suffered from this problem.Like Okehampton the station is remote from most of the town which has easy access to the A38 and Plymouth its main market. A huge station car park with only a hand full of cars most times. Thus for Okehampton to compete with a main dual-carraigeway trunk route in these circumstances wont be easy. The Tavistock re-opening in 2014 has a far greater chance of success simply because the road alternative to Plymouth is poor and chronically congested in comparison.

Extending services across Exeter from St Davids via central to St James' Park should increase revenue a bit, one would think.
   
Does anyone know if there are plans to re-open Bow and North Tawton?

ITV Westcountry local news currently have their news article as the main video on the front page of their site.

http://www.itv.com/westcountry-west/ (http://www.itv.com/westcountry-west/)

Well noises were made by RDS at the time. when plans were published that the Station at Ivybridge was on the wrong side of Ivybridge for a Plymouth Park and Ride service. would have more success as a Park and Ride for Exeter Services except ther's NO trains at the right times

The Okehampton to Exeter Railway Line - last used by passenger services in 1972 - could be re-opened again.

According to that Westcountry news link they are looking elsewhere in the Westcountry to expand and have already expressed an interest at improving rail links between Exeter and Plymouth.That could be interesting.

Maybe we are drifting off the topic if we talk about open access possibilities in Cwll in this thread ...

Ivybridge is quite a busy little station!


Ivybridge station would be a lot busy IF the station was west of the town.
What's the point in driving East to catch a train west.
The Station was built for Plymouth park & Ride.


Edit note: Chris, to amend quote marks.

There could be an opportunity to run OA services from Newquay to Plymouth. It'd be interesting to see path availability between Plymouth and PZ as many would appreciate a 'proper train' service rather than the short DMU offerings on the non IC services that currently run. A long term deal incorporating the Bodmin and Wenford could be interesting. Bodmin would make an ideal stock stabling facility too.

Apparently the Dartmoor Railway now have one mile of brand new track, capable of supporting 125 mph trains completed in February by Network rail to trial its High Output Track Renewal Equipment.
http://www.dartmoor-railway.co.uk/news.html
 Any one know what lines speeds could be acheived if the entire former Southern Plymouth/Exeter route via Okehampton was re-opened with similarly ugraded track.
 Perhaps that was what Devon and Cornwall railways meant by "Improved rail links between Exeter and Plymouth".Just a thought.

Think this stinks a little bit.  Public money (ours) being used to upgrade a private railway.  There are pleanty of 'national' lines that could have been used for the trial (Looe branch on winter sundays comes to mind).

There is a grave dange in talking up romantic schemes for new or reopened services, and getting money for them, while the bread and butter lines, which will have an increasing part to play in the overall transport network they serve, wither through lack of what should be routine upgrading.

The Line between Crediton and Cowely Exeter was this ever a double track line

The Line between Crediton and Cowely Exeter was this ever a double track line

Yes - I can remember it being double track in the late 1970s. According to http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/sl-lswr.html#Oke (http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/sl-lswr.html#Oke) it was singled in 1984.

This picture (http://www.derbysulzers.com/25069newton78.jpg) from 1978 shows the double track through Newton St Cyres.

Yes - I can remember it being double track in the late 1970s. According to http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/sl-lswr.html#Oke (http://www.trainweb.org/railwest/gen/signal/sl-lswr.html#Oke) it was singled in 1984.

This picture (http://www.derbysulzers.com/25069newton78.jpg) from 1978 shows the double track through Newton St Cyres.

It seem's that Dartmoor Railway aren't quite ready to run services at the moment, as FGW will continue to run summer Sunday services to Okehampton this year.

wow thats very impressive actually that they can help out at such short notice

Which is why although it has been discussed elsewhere on this board the EC directive on the length of a bus route works well in Europe because there are more rail lines nearer more people so the bus routes don't have to serve large stretches of country such as North Devon and  Cornwall, North Norfolk etc. without nearby rail lines.

It's hard to see where else they could operate in Devon & Cornwall, especially Cornwall. Maybe extending east from Exeter to Axminster?

Not sure. I suspect there are pathways on the single line as as far as Axminster despite the SWT hourly services.

There is spare capacity, AFAICT [from drawing a simple distance/time graph] but it can only support a service pattern with 2 hours between the additional trains from Exeter.  It would have to follow about 20 mins after an up SWT service and wait for about 4 or 5 mins for the next down SWT to cross at Honiton.   If it sits at Axminster from about xx30 to xx40 it can then head back to Honiton and cross with the next up SWT

SWT service running ahead departure timings in bold

1026 EXETSTDAV PASS 10:43
1030 EXETERCEN PASS 10:45
1032 (estimated) EXMOUTHJN PASS 10:47
1035 (est) PINHOE PASS 10:56
1053 HONITON 11:08 11:19
1106 AXMINSTER PASS 11:30
1110 (est) CHARD JN 11:37 11:58
1129YEOVIL JN 12:13 12:47

Acknowledgements to WNXX forums

but does not appear to be running (today 30 May 2010 at least). 

It was running yesterday.

Having said that, there was nothing on CIS at EXD ::)

Devon and Cornwall Railways (DCR) must wait for a public consultation to finish before finding out whether it will be allowed to run six trains each weekday between Okehampton and Exeter. It was hoped that the new service, which would see trains running every 90 minutes and stopping at stations including Crediton, could start in May, with a through train from Okehampton to London operating by December. It was then stated that it would be at least late July before the service, which would benefit commuters, shoppers and tourists alike, started. But plans have been delayed further, as the Office of Rail Regulation (ORR) is still considering DCR's application for a European passenger and freight licence.

An ORR spokesman told the Gazette: "ORR needs to verify that a company is able to operate before any licence is issued. A public consultation has begun so that interested parties can comment on the application. We cannot issue any licences until the consultation has finished, and then we will make our decision. We have already issued the necessary safety certificate, and the company will also need to negotiate track access rights so that it can use the railway."

The consultation started on Thursday, August 26, and runs until Wednesday, September 22.

Comments on the proposal to grant the applicant a licence should be sent to okiemute.mowoe@orr.gsi.gov.uk or Mute Mowoe, Office of Rail Regulation, 1 Kemble Street, London WC2B 4AN, before the closing date.

Dennis Leworthy, duty manager for Dartmoor Railway (DR), which supports trains between Okehampton and Exeter on Sundays during summer only, said that from the time that authority was given it would take ten weeks to get everything in place to run the service, including staff.

DCR, which would run the new service, and DR, which runs the heritage service and does not run trains on the national network, would both work from Okehampton and there would be some crossover in staff. Both companies are subsidiaries of British American Railway Services, a company formed by Iowa Pacific Holdings of Chicago to acquire the assets of ECT Rail Holdings in 2008.

Mr Leworthy said: "Until we get authority from the ORR we are not going to put together the wherewithal to run the service. We are hoping that we will be able to start the service this year. We are on tenterhooks. We have had enquiries about it from Exeter University and the Royal Devon & Exeter Hospital and we are keen to get going. We were anticipating that we would be able to start in May, but the ORR is going through everything with a fine-tooth comb. We believe it has been happy with everything so far, but it kept asking to see more and we did not account for these delays."

The line was built in the second half of the 19th century, but the Okehampton to Exeter passenger service was withdrawn by British Rail in 1972 as part of the Beeching cuts, and the main use of the line was then to transport ballast from Meldon Quarry. Regular passenger services were reinstated on the line in 1997 with the inception of the Dartmoor Railway community interest company, whose volunteers help to maintain the line.

Devon County Council gave ^250,000 towards the project to bring the second platform at Yeoford station back into use, as it is a junction, to enable the dream for daily trains to be realised. The grant came from the council's Investing in Devon programme, funded by the proceeds of the sale of Exeter Airport.

... the Okehampton to Exeter passenger service was withdrawn by British Rail in 1972 as part of the Beeching cuts ...

And the rolling stock is coming from where.....??

Class 31, 3 Mk2's and a DBSO!  (with 2 x 31 and 4 Mk2's given as the alternative) page 95

See here here  (http://www.networkrail.co.uk/browse documents/tra.../devonandcornwalldrafttacversion2 _2_.pdf - 622k - 16 Mar 2010 /)

As the Easter holidays approach (although they won't actually cover Easter this year!) we can expect an influx of tourists taking advantage of  improving weather promised in the middle of April.

And rather than roar by down the A30, let's hope they stop off for a few hours - or, better still, days - and enjoy all that Okehampton has to offer. We'll go on a quick - but by no means comprehensive - tour.

Any tourist trail of the town is best started at the Tourist Information Point in the Museum Yard, where you can pick up leaflets and maps to guide you around the area. And while you're there, drop into the Museum of Dartmoor Life, which has won several awards for it's portrayal of life on the north side of Dartmoor over the centuries. The exhibitions of day-to-day rural life are particularly evocative.

Next stop should be Okehampton Castle, which dates from Norman times but was rebuilt as an opulent private residence in the 14th century. The excellent audio guide will interpret the ruins , and the well-kept grounds make an excellent picnic spot.

Until 1917 the Castle was owned by one Sydney Simmons, a great benefactor of the town. In that year he donated the building and grounds "to ever thereafter enjoyed by the inhabitants of and visitors to the town of Okehampton...". As well as the gift of the Castle, he also endowed the town's park - Simmons Park - which you can call into on your way to the next port of call, Okehampton Station.

The station lies at the top of (of course) Station Road and is a must for all railway lovers. It is one of the very few of Beeching's closures which has re-opened - after a spectacular renovation, which has taken it back to the old Southern Railway colours... and correct in every detail.

During summer you can catch a train to Meldon Quarry and viaduct... and... and... watch this space... by summer 2011 there just might be trains to Exeter on a daily basis. (At present they only run on Sunday.)

The Station Buffet offers a good selection of meals and snacks, while over the tracks you'll find Okehampton Youth Hostel, which not only provides accommodation but also is the base for Adventure Okehampton, which organises all manner of action days out on Dartmoor.

There's so much to see - we haven't got to the Moor yet, or any National Trust properties - that you might think about staying. Try Upcott House for a very well-appointed family B&B... follow the link to check for any seasonal deals on offer.

You'll find enough to do in and around Okehampton that it could make an excellent centre for a family holiday... many families come year after year to enjoy the scenery, the activities, the friendly welcome... and the local food and drink (but that will have to wait for another day!)

Is there anywhere else that BR sold off a line?

Aberystwyth to Devil's Bridge?

And how about some that weren't carrying trains at the time ...

Paignton to Kingswear

I think devon & cornwall railways are still waiting for a passenger licence.

After that they have to get the rolling stock and make sure staff are trained etc.

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for any of that to happen...

Main problem I think is the cost especially since they are planning to use a class 31 & DBSO with 2 mk2 carriages, Mind you I think the enthusiasts will be happy.

I would have thought the NIR 450 class DEMU stock currently being sold off by Translink (if fitted with UK gauge B5T / MK6 bogies) might be more suitable for that operation, particularly as its already OTMR and TPWS fitted.

Wouldn't the gauge conversion be quite expensive?

Not really because the units are built to UK loading gauge, being basically 455 EMU upper parts mounted on Mk1 underframes. Powered by EE / GEC 4SRKT engines and EE538 traction motors recovered from earlier units. And there are no side buffers to move / remount. If you can find some Mk1 EMU Mk6 (resusing motors and gearssets from existing power bogies) and B5T bogies, remount and shorten the footboards that's about the size of it. It may even be possible to modify the existing bogies, nothing that Pullman Rail Cardiff  or Knights Rail at Eastleigh couldn't reasonably do, and probably cheaper to operate than a 31 and hauled stock.

I was referring to the track gauge not the loading gauge which is different in Northern Ireland.  As for loading gauge, you say the units were built to UK loading gauge but if this gauge officially exists then it would also have to be the loading gauge for Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

I was referring to the track gauge not the loading gauge which is different in Northern Ireland.  As for loading gauge, you say the units were built to UK loading gauge but if this gauge officially exists then it would also have to be the loading gauge for Northern Ireland as Northern Ireland is part of the UK.

NIR / CIE lines being built to a larger loading gauge than the UK.

Northern Ireland can't have been built to a larger loading gauge than the UK as Northern Ireland is in the UK.  It must be the case that different loading gauges were used within the UK.

If what your trying to assert is correct the railways in Ireland would have been compelled to have been built to 4' 8.5" which clearly wasn't the case.

No, what I'm saying is that there wasn't a UK gauge as if there was then Northern Ireland should breen required to use it.  The standard gauge was only used in Great Britain and not all of the UK.

AFAIK

The Loading Gauge in Ireland was constrained by the pioneer Dublin and Kingstown Railway built in 1834 and laid to the Stephenson track gauge of 4' 8 1/2".

This meant that the rolling stock was constructed to the then standard British loading gauge. As the DKR was built through the populated part of the City, subsequent widening to 5' 3" was unable to take advantage of the broader tracks, loading gauge wise, as the line's structure could not be altered without immense cost and disruption.  This resulted in the use of vehicles that meet the BR loading gauge, albeit with wider bogies.

I am though, unsure as to the dimensions of the newer DART and IE stock.

I think you'll find that CIE / IR installed slab track on that bit to allow full IR loading gauge sized vehicles to pass through and past each other there without restriction. The CIE 'Cravens' coaches were slightly but significantly higher and wider than the BR Mk1 of the same period to take advantage of the loading gauge and they ran through that bit without problems. Iarnrod Eireann 201 class GM's can also run I believe so there cannot be a problem these days.

Suffice to say ex NIR 450's should be able to run on the Dartmoor Railway if you convert them to Standard track gauge and cut the footsteps back a bit....

Do you happen to know the dimensions of the Irish loading gauge viz the UK standard?

It isn't a standard loading gauge in the UK though as Great Britain and Northern Ireland have different loading gauges.

Bit of Youtube for which demonstrates the slight but significant difference in CIE / Iarnrod Eireann loading gauge stock and BR loading gauge stock. The steam generator van is converted from a former BR BSK coach. And its a little bit of History as the Waterford line is closed, as is th

No problem with that, I should have written Mainland Britain.

Moving station could reverse town's decline

Plans for a new station, which could mean a regular rail link between Exeter and Okehampton, are expected to win support from the county council.

Opportunity Okehampton is an ambitious scheme designed to reverse the decline of the town, which has been particularly badly hit by the recession, with the closure of several high-profile businesses. West Devon Borough Council is investigating a series of developments with the aim of creating employment and promoting growth and sustainable transport.

A proposal to relocate the town's railway station to a more convenient location is hoped to generate support for a case for a regular commuter service between Exeter and Okehampton, to expand on the current Sunday summer service.

On Wednesday, Devon County Council's cabinet will be invited to support a plan for a small station, along with a car park and shared footpath and cycleway. A report concludes that funding may be hard, but says opportunities may be presented by the outcome of the Local Sustainable Transport Fund bid, which seeks to expand access to Dartmoor and Exmoor, and by the re-tendering of the Great Western rail franchise.

Just an update the dartmoor [sic] Sunday rover ticket no longer covers stations on the tarka [sic] like [sic] between crediton [sic] and Barnstaple

Just an update the dartmoor Sunday rover ticket no longer covers stations on the tarka like between crediton and Barnstaple it is now stations from digby and sowton to okehampton and gunislake down to Plymouth the arrangement with local busses remains the same

Bit of a shocker after it had been assured the quarry was merely been mothballed.

The Dartmoor Railway have never been great at sharing information, with rumours of rifts and strife posted on other forums. They did recently move some ex-Virgin rolling stock (about 6 coaches?) from the sidings at Yeovil to Meldon, for use on "Polar Express" Christmas specials.

My initial feelings are that it could go either way; a Tavistock-style development that sees passengers service to Exeter reinstated or - heaven forbid - a cycle track, linked to a leisure development.

The Okehampton news will doubtless be moved to the Okehampton branch thread but to keep all the bits together till then, I'll post here.

Call to build new Plymouth to London train line away from the coast

Saturday, December 01, 2012

Plymouth Herald

By KEITH ROSSITER Political Reporter

A TRANSPORT expert is calling for work to start on Westcountry rail links that were scuppered by Hitler 73 years ago.

After train services to London were twice cut in the past week, Neill Mitchell is urging the Government to look again at plans for a new railway line avoiding Dawlish, which were drawn up before the Second World War.
 ​
"It is simply not acceptable for the 21st century business, freight, tourism and leisure rail service in the peninsula to remain dependent on a solitary 'fair weather railway'," he said.

The rail line between Exeter and Newton Abbot was shut this week after a major landslip at Teignmouth followed by 14 smaller landslips on the route.

But the route's weakest point, and the cause of regular disruption, is the stretch along the sea wall at Dawlish.

Mr Mitchell said the problem was made more pressing now that Plymouth and its hinterland, with a combined population of about 400,000, had lost its direct air link to the capital.

He is calling for the Government to start by "drawing a line on the map" for a line which avoids the sea wall at Dawlish.

Plans for a "Dawlish Avoiding Line" were put forward by the Great Western Railway (GWR) in 1935 at a time when another Conservative-dominated coalition National Government was wrestling with the impact of global economic recession.

Mr Mitchell said GWR had planned a new line from Dawlish Warren to Newton Abbot "in minute detail, down to the level of drainage culverts and pedestrian accesses".

In 1936 Parliament approved a railway almost nine miles long from Newton Abbot, deviating near the rail bridge over the Hackney Canal Channel, and rejoining the main line north of Dawlish Warren station, alongside the River Exe Estuary.

A second Act in 1937 extended the route further northeast, past Kenton and Powderham, to Exminster, adding just over seven miles.

Surveying began early in 1939, and work was intended to be complete by January 1941. But in September 1939 Hitler invaded Poland and war broke out.

Nationalisation of the railways in 1947 was the death knell for the improvements.

Mr Mitchell said that re-routing of the main line away from the Dawlish sea wall would cost considerably less than the present Reading Station re-configuration scheme.

He called for strategic leadership from the new Cornwall and Heart of the South West Local Enterprise Partnerships together with Network Rail, the Department for Transport, the universities and the peninsula's MPs.

He said 21st century tunnelling economics and techniques could allow a more direct route, to high-speed rail standards, between Exeter St Thomas and Newton Abbot, via or beneath Haldon.

The existing scenic line along the sea wall should stay open to accommodate weekend engineering work diversions, local shuttle services and for its tourism potential.

Although rail services continued along the former LSWR/Southern main line to Waterloo via Okehampton until 1968, Mr Mitchell said this was not a suitable alternative to the Dawlish line because the bulk of Devon's economically productive population was along the southern route.

But he said it should brought back into use to reconnect West Devon and North Cornwall and to give Plymouth direct access to London Waterloo."

Meanwhile Gary Streeter, the Conservative MP for South West Devon, is calling on Network Rail to make repairs to the Great Western mainline a national priority.

"It's obvious we are not going to get electrification in Devon and Cornwall for many years therefore we must have urgent investment now in making our existing line more resilient and robust," he said.

COUNCIL CALLS FOR RAIL LIFELINE TO BE A PRIORITY

PLYMOUTH^S rail ^lifeline^ should be a national priority, the Government is being told.

After rail services were disrupted by floods in the past week, council leader Tudor Evans is demanding action to keep links to the peninsula open, whatever the weather.

City MP Oliver Colvile has also raised the issue in the House of Commons this week.

And a transport expert has renewed calls for a new line to by-pass storm-hit Dawlish.

Last week^s floods cut the rail link between Exeter and Tiverton and passengers were ferried between stations by bus.

The rail misery continued this week when the line between Newton Abbot and Exeter was closed by 15 landslips.

Now Cllr Evans is co-ordinating a letter from South West leaders to the Transport Minister.

He said the Government was committing huge investment to improve transport in areas of the country that are already very well connected.

^Is it too much to ask for tracks that allow train services to get to a chosen destination without the use of a bus?

^The South West has suffered from severe travel disruption. Not only do we find services suspended, but the replacement bus services themselves were delayed by flooding on the M5.^

Signatories to the letter include Cornwall, Devon and Somerset council leaders, the Mayor of Torbay and the chairs of the Cornwall and Heart of the South West Local Economic Partnerships.

Cllr Evans said: ^I understand we were dealing with extreme weather this time, but this isn^t a new issue and flooding happens all too frequently.

^We know where flooding is likely and we know there is a Government plan to tackle such issues.^

The Government^s 2011 document ^Climate Resilient Infrastructure^ features on its front cover a photo of the line at Dawlish, where services are frequently disrupted by weather.

Cllr Evans said: ^We are striving for economic growth in the region and have some excellent plans in place to create jobs and encourage businesses to the area including the South West Marine Energy Park.

^The Government recognises the economic value of fast, reliable transport links.^

He is calling on the Government to give the South West some priority. ^The DIY approach we are often forced to take just won^t cut it in this situation. We need investment in our travel infrastructure to enable us to deliver growth.

^The South West can no longer be viewed as the sleepy tourist destination of the UK. We will be asking to meet the Secretary of State for Transport to seek the necessary infrastructure needed.

^Unlike his Transport Minister, who did not travel to Exeter on Thursday, we are prepared to take the long and torturous journey to Westminster to move this agenda forward.

^We^ll be keeping up the pressure on Government so they understand the transport issues that threaten our ambitions for growth in the South West.^

Mr Colvile, the Tory MP for Plymouth Sutton and Devonport, raised the issue at transport questions in the Commons.

He called on Transport Minister Stephen Hammond to make an economic assessment of the impact of that on the Plymouth economy?

Mr Hammond said: ^I recognise that it has been extremely disruptive, but it is too early to undertake an economic assessment.

^The Government^s main priority at present is restoring services to all those affected by flooding.^

Certainly Umberleigh, but nothing that couldn't be sorted out by a Great Engineer. It might be easier (and cheaper) in the long run to do away with the embankments and raise both lines on concrete stilts, so letting the mighty Exe flow undisturbed below. Or not. I am a civil servant, not a civil engineer (worse luck), but if other experts agree that the events of the past couple of weeks are a pointer to the future, then I can't see it doing any harm.

Wouldn't the plans for a new station in okehampton hinder any chance left to rest abolish the link between Tavistock and okehampton?

I could not understand the meaning of this message Plymboi.  Could you clear up please?

No, it won't hinder any possibility of one day possibly reestablishing the Tavistock - Okehampton line.  The proposed new station would be a through one.

While on this, I've not heard anything about how the sale of the line is going.

The key issue here is Tavistock viaduct.  The last time I looked, there is a bungalow built across the formation, called 'Beeches', on the Callington Road to the west of the town and I believe, is the reason why the proposed line to Plymouth will finish just short of the missing bridge which crossed the Callington Road.  (See GE and SV).  Using the same software, look to the east of the central viaduct in Tavistock and you will see a line of houses that were allowed to be built just to the west of the old station, which itself is still intact.  So that's about 5 or more compulsory purchases that have to be made.  After that to the east, severing the West Devon District Council offices should be less of a problem and there is some cosmetic land infill near an old people's home that could be got rid of.  After that, there may be one or two garden extensions on the moor by the people who bought the old stations as houses (but I noted on my own recce that they are railway enthusiasts).

My feeling is that the District council is not the kind that would promote reinstatement of the railway; if it were different, they would not have built their own scrappy offices over it, but I would be delighted to learn otherwise. 

West Devon council are fully in support of the reinstatement, in fact they are a main driver of the proposals they endorsed a leaflet in February this year outlining the project and about the public enquiry!

http://www.devon.gov.uk/120204_tavistock_railway_leaflet_8_gm.pdf

Beginning of the end for the okehampton branch? Odd moe wonder whats prompted them to suspend services.

Doyle post

mispelt

Haha...even Bude and Halwell get a mention here...

http://www.okehampton-today.co.uk/news.cfm?id=12606

A plan to reopen one section of the line, the 5.5-mile piece from Tavistock to Bere Alston, has been discussed for several years. Kilbride Community Rail says it would fund the building through the development of about 750 houses in Tavistock.  But Mr Henshaw said: "That is an awful lot for a private company to do. I am sceptical about that ever happening. It has drifted for years."

... i have no doubt that it could be done for that much if not less.... someone must be doing very well from all these overpriced projects

This is gathering momentum. Loads of calls for reinstatement now.

I agree with the statements about re-opening. However being a cynic I will say what will happen is the review of transport links will take place, but by that time the line will be re-opened and suddenly it will not be financially viable once more. That will be tucked away quietly in a small piece of news on page 26 of the Newspaper!

I hope I am wrong.

Is this the petition we should sign or is there another? http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60320

I'd prefer to see an inland route built, to modern high speed standards, between Exeter and Newton Abbot. Something the GWR were set to do in the late 1930s, before the Second World War put the kybosh on the plans.

I can see the benefits of this, but it's hard to imagine it getting off the ground - I'm guessing you'd have to put pretty much the whole thing in tunnels to appease the environmental lobby, which would cost a few orders of magnitude more than reopening the LSWR route.

Is there a consensus on a viable route through Tavistock?

Anyone?? Or are we just drawing an undetermined line on the map through the town at this stage?

Would a new station be built in the centre of Tavistock, and if so, in which precise location? Would a station also still be built at the site earmarked in the current Tavistock-Bere Alston proposal.

In the Borders scheme, how many people have been forced out of their homes in centres of population comparable to Tavistock, and what has their reaction been to that?

Wasn't there a limitation on the type of locomotive able to cross meldon viaduct?
Would a HST be able to cross it or any of the proposed new trains to be made available
Following electrification of the GWML?

The whole of HS2 isn't going into tunnels to appease enviromentalists. No reason why an inland route has to do so. Branch off at Exminster, head due south to the left of Malmhead, then head south west to the south of Ashcombe and Ideford Common, following the river valley (Dawlish Water?) and then run parallel to the A380 into Newton Abbot. Sparsely populated land and possibly only a need for tunneling under the Powderham estate and to the west of Kenton. Around 15 miles of new build. Compared with a similar length of rebuilding between Okehampton and Tavistock, but without the need for services from London Paddington to Cornwall to reverse twice.

Does anyone know of the cost per mile of new build double track railway versus reinstating and upgrading 50 year old abandoned permanent way to modern double track standard? Remembering that the latter would have to go through the centre of Tavistock. I imagine the cost difference is pretty marginal.

A thorough cost/benefit analysis of all options should be carried out. My preference is for an inland 'GWR' route, but if reinstating Okehampton - Tavistock/Bere Alston and upgrading the existing stubs to modern mainline standards comes out as the considerably better value for money option, then I'm happy for that to be the alternative route to Plymouth and Cornwall. Won't help Torbay though.

A TRANSPORT expert is calling for work to start on Westcountry rail links that were scuppered by Hitler 73 years ago.

After train services to London were twice cut in the past week, Neill Mitchell is urging the Government to look again at plans for a new railway line avoiding Dawlish, which were drawn up before the Second World War.

Read more: http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/build-new-Plymouth-London-train-line-away-coast/story-17476633-detail/story.html

The Up line from Meldon Jn to Meldon Quarry, ie. over Meldon Viaduct, was taken out of use on 24/4/66 with all trains thence using the Down line as a Single line.

However in connection with track alterations (carried out mainly by the excellent former Tavistock North PW gang -who were retained after May 1968 when Meldon-Bere Alston was closed as an 'Extra gang' by the Plymouth District Civil Engineer) at Meldon Quarry in the 1970's, the closed off but still intact former Up line was RE-INSTATED as a long headshunt for the Quarry with 2 track panels relaid just off the Plymouth end of the Viaduct.
The heaviest Diesel loco on BR at the time; a Class 46 'Peak' loco (139 tons with an axle weight of nearly 17.5 tons) was tested and the test proved satisfactory and the former Up line was thence permitted, without loco restrictions, to be used again; and this continued for some years. 

Today's modern multiple unit trains of course have much lighter axle loads.

I would have thought that a new line would have been preferable. From Exminster to Newton Abbott would be around 10 miles, so even if some were in tunnel it's not going to run into billions. And just think, it would be a new line that would have almost unanimous local support (that's a novel thought), could shave 7 or 8 minutes off the journey time, and would in future years be easier to electrify than the coast route would be (or more accurately, wouldn't have the problems of an electrified railway being bashed by waves).

If the coastal line were singled, what that provide extra space to build up the flood defences?

Very interesting re Meldon viaduct. I knew it had been retained as a headhunt but thanks for the new information. I'm certainly now questioning the assumption that it would be too frail for a HST or a 57. Perhaps someone should have a word with NR?

So one year after closing the line, the first rail replacement busses made an appearance? Take a bow, Dr Beeching.

If the Dawlish Avoiding Line were to be built then it throws into question the cost of maintaining a rail link to one small village and a minor town. Remember, over 90% of holidaymakers don't arrive by train. If disruption on this scale is to become a regular occurrence, then abandoning Dawlish would pay for the DAL in perhaps a decade or two.

*ducks for cover*

Dawlish and Teignmouth put together have a population of around 30,000. That's quite a lot of people to wipe off the rail map.

A Dawlish branch from Newton Abbot would reduce the cost and keep them with some connection.

Given the way the wind was blowing at the time, Mrs Castle was right to shut the LSWR route. There was no possibility of keeping both routes open in that climate, and the only place on the relevant section of the LSWR to completely lose its service was Tavistock (with a current population of just over 11,000). Over 100,000 would have lost their service if they'd shut the GW route.


Dawlish and Teignmouth put together have a population of around 30,000. That's quite a lot of people to wipe off the rail map.

To my mind, the Dawlish sea wall and railway should be re-instated without delay as an emergency measure...

Agreed!
there may be far better engineering solutions, perhaps involving re-enforced concrete within the walls.

Paul

To me, it seems that the way to proceed should be:
1) repair the wall & strengthen further if possible =>
2) reinstate Okehampton-Tavistock-Bere Alston, not just to provide a diversionary route when needed but also to reconnect Okehampton and Tavistock to the network and provide a railhead for North Cornwall & West Devon. =>
3) Plan for a Dawlish Avoiding Line to ensure that if/when the sea wall gives up the ghost, the South Devon & Torbay route is retained as well. 

Agree 100% with the priviso that:

Exeter Plymouth via Okehampton to be double track 90 mph.
Avoiding line to be double track and 125 mph.
In addition redouble Castle Cary to Pinhoe throughout to provide Somerset levels avoiding route.

To me, it seems that the way to proceed should be:
1) repair the wall & strengthen further if possible =>
2) reinstate Okehampton-Tavistock-Bere Alston, not just to provide a diversionary route when needed but also to reconnect Okehampton and Tavistock to the network and provide a railhead for North Cornwall & West Devon. =>
3) Plan for a Dawlish Avoiding Line to ensure that if/when the sea wall gives up the ghost, the South Devon & Torbay route is retained as well. 

All for 500,000 people? Hmmm. Maybe a selection of 2 out of 3. Unless they can access EU money for the other

The possibility of reopening the line between Okehampton - Tavistock was covered on BBC Spotlight this evening.

...the cost to reopen the Okehampton line would be less than ^150million and do-able in 12-18months...

Thanks trainbuff, but it appears to be a (paid) subscription only access.
Unless I'm missing something.

Saw this train running from Taunton to Okehampton this morning.

http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O77646/2014/02/25/advanced (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/train/O77646/2014/02/25/advanced)

Thought it might be the start of a new diverted service  ;D

A locomotive on its own ... but then a line can start with a single vehicle and grow!

He'll pass the buck to the next Government....:-o

Cynique? Moi?

What is happening? -Nowt.

#redragtoabullbignosemac

 ;D

Okehampton an Tavistock's potential rail commuters can be served equally well by branch line services.

Time for a signature change.

Time for a signature change.

Oi!

The best solution to South-West Peninsula rail resilience, after due deliberation!

It's good to see someone spell "hear hear" correctly.

An homage my dear fellow. With all respect and reverence explicit. No copyright infringement is intended or should be inferred.  :P ;) ;D

Pie in the sky [or pie in the sea]?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-devon-37639243

The above planning application is to build a housing estate on the LSWR trackbed near Callington Road in Tavistock.  This would be a big set back for the reinstatement of the line if it gets approval.

Closing date is 11 March 2017 (5 days).

I have been altered to Planning applicationTavistock 0425/17/FUL in the following away:

Link is http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/planningdetails?RefType=APPPlanCase&KeyNo=0&KeyText=170425 (http://www.westdevon.gov.uk/planningdetails?RefType=APPPlanCase&KeyNo=0&KeyText=170425).

Certainly looks to block the railway.

Sounds distinctly painful, Graham!

How much longer should the landowners of Tavistock have to wait before they can build much needed housing?

Exeter - Okehampton

 £2 Million to run trains on Sundays and other days.

£8 Million to make it a fully functioning Branch Line. Ouch !

They shouldn't have to wait ... they should be allowed to build houses on sites that don't block rail revival potential.

A lengthy article today, with a summary of the current position of schemes.
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/this-is-the-new-train-line-that-could-link-plymouth-with-london/story-30233238-detail/story.html

Though it does get off to a bad start...linking the Froome freight derailment with the Okehampton reopening!

They shouldn't have to wait ... they should be allowed to build houses on sites that don't block rail revival potential. If Tavistock is anything like Melksham, there will be many, many alternative sites.  The SHLAA map for Tavistock is, I'm afraid, giving me a "404" as West Devon Council migrate to a new web site - but by way of example what they're likely to have potentially available look at the Melksham plans at http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/shlaa-appendix-3-melksham.pdf .

I'm afraid this reflects a very narrow viewpoint.

Which of the branches is taking a hit to frequency for that then? Exeter isn't exactly awash with surplus stock, is it?

I assumed it will be 143/150 released by turbos.

I would be very interested to see a time series of month v no of units (or) number of carriages in each class. I'm sure someone has one, but I haven't seen it published.

I'm assuming the cost of recommissioning the second platform at Yeoford (and installing a footbridge) would be too great. A reinstated junction at Coleford would enable the single platform at Yeoford to be used but a double crossover would create a long 4m + double track loop all the way to Crediton. 

Westcountry news on itv this evening are discussing that the government are exploring a dawlish avoider, announced in Exeter this morning, most likely via Okehampton. An ‘expert’ says it will cost the equivalent of 2miles of HS2 to restore Okehampton to Plymouth!

There are posters going up in Okehampton with misleading information regarding the trial.

1. The poster says the trial will start in 2018. This not accurate. No date has been set by DfT yet. Talks are being had by them with GWR as soon as we know a date we will say. In truth 2019 is more likely.

2. It says that there will be a 300 place park and ride. While there will be a car park, there has been no absolute commitment yet. 300 would be the absolute maximum but doesn’t allow for buses. A park and ride in the sense of those in cities, is not what is being looked at. Work is going on now relating to the New Parkway station and the car park. We will post about that when we can.

3. It also says that it will run through to Exeter Central. While this is an aspiration, at the moment there is no commitment. GWR are aware of the importance of Central as a destination and it is part of the discussions going forward.

4. Logos. None of the organisations have given permission for their logos to be used on this poster. I know for sure that DCC are unhappy because of the misleading messages.

Why am I making a thing about this? DfT insist  on communities having the same focus. If there is any apparent dissenting within groups that are leading, that could stop discussions and the DfT could look elsewhere.

If anyone wants to discuss this further, drop me a message and I will happily do so.

Kev Ball.

Okerail have posted the following on Facebook...

Mr Grayling said his department was reviewing the costs and business case for partial electrification and track alignment work between Totnes and Plymouth.

This bit caught my eye in the article (yes, I know its not the Okehampton route):


What's all that about then.... ::)

I wonder other projects a full and proper fair share of funding could help deliver ?

This suggests that DfT are aware of the limitations of Bi-modes, i.e in climbing and fast running.

Totnes - Plymouth includes Rattery and Hemerdon banks but the wires would need to start at Newton Abbot to include Dainton, not to mention Whiteball.

A similar glimmer of sense appears to be in NR now debating where the MML wires should stop, as there are summits at Desborough, south of Market H and to the north at Kibworth. After Leicester the line is easily graded so Bi-modes would/might be satisfactory.

Why the steep Box and Middle Hill tunnels aren't wired ASAP defeats reason.

Exeter - Plymouth via Okehampton would be a terrific climb, 1/75 for 25 miles each way!

Get shovelling,

OTC

Instructing GWR to "draw up plans" was also effectively shown in the ITT for the 2012 franchise, in the form of a priced option.

This could still just be keeping the same old pot simmering on the back burner...

Paul

It helps that Chris Grayling himself has made several positive comments about it, including the latest ones.  It also helps he wasn't moved in the reshuffle!

If one looks at Figure W4 of "Gradient Profiles", one will see that there is precious little relief from grades...

OTC

...although they do vary, like toothache.

"I don't think trundling a train quite slowly inland is a back up plan,we are better off making the line we have as resillient as possible".

Call in King Canute then.

OTC

Anyway, it's good to know that a factual, informed and completely non Plymouthcentric opinion is being given to the All party parliamentary South West Rail Group by its chairman Gary Streeter MP for South West Devon [basically the South Hams,Ivybridge and Plympton];

"I don't think trundling a train quite slowly inland is a back up plan,we are better off making the line we have as resillient as possible".

I think you should read the exact words in Mr G's letter. Many hurdles to jump yet!

From Devon Live, Chris Grayling instructs GWR to provide regular Okehampton service.

https://www.devonlive.com/news/devon-news/daily-okehampton-exeter-trains-promised-1141277

Pardon my cynicism but when is Grayling going to 'instruct GWR to provide a regular service' ??? He hasn't so far managed it with the rest of the franchise !  :D
 

No apologies for bumping this after last night.

The Dawlish line has always been prone to weather disruption but this is now becoming a regular winter event, one which is almost predictable.

Forget Network Rail telling us we need a new double track mainline. All we need between Crediton and Bere Alston is a single track with a passing loop at Tavistock (and perhaps Okehampton) and the reinstatement of the junction north of Yeoford at Coleford to allow for a dynamic passing loop controlled by Crediton box. This should allow for one train per hour to be diverted in each direction.

Rest of the year run Sprinters between Exeter and Plymouth for the local and tourist trade. Suspend these services during diversions and lay on coaches for the much smaller number of passengers making much shorter journeys.

Yes, we need a new viaduct at Mellon and yes trackbed will have to be prised back from landowners and some buildings knocked down, but its not exactly HS2, is it?

And how does that help the combined populations of Teignbridge, Torbay and the South Hams? That's 400,000 odd people cut off from access to the railway, while trains do their double reversal and long detour to serve Plymouth and Cornwall.

Dawlish Avoiding Line keeps everyone in Devon & Cornwall, who currently has access to rail, connected.

Okehampton - Tavistock should reopen too. But its raison d'etre for opening should not be as a diversionary route. It should be costed on the new traffic it has the potential to generate. Costed on the benefits a regular passenger service would being to the folk of West Devon. No benefit/cost weighting should be given to it for use as a diversionary route during disruption. You can survey and predict passenger numbers for a new line. You can't survey and predict (beyond short term weather forecasts) meteorological disruption.

Your plan would means buses and coaches replacing the local services along the LSWR route during disruption, in addition to the rail replacement fleet required for South Devon, Teignbridge, Torbay, and the South Hams. TOCs struggle to source such vehicles at short notice as it is.

Trying to sell the new line to folk, but curtailing the local service when the coastal route closes, won't make the reopening that attractive.

Welsh lines and the Borders line have been reopened - it is feasible.

During closure of the main line the good people of Torbay etc have no rail service anyway!

Which is precisely why they need a rail alternative to the coastal route that doesn't completely bypass them. Users of Newton Abbot, Torquay, Paignton and Totnes would be delighted to learn that sparser populated areas of Devon get a rail service during disruption, while they are consigned to buses and coaches.

The need for a solution to the frequent coastal route disruption is not some time away. Dawlish Avoiding Line, Now!

Too reiterate. I'm not either/or. I'm just against promoting and costing the LSWR as a diversionary route. And I firmly believe that any call on funding has to first go to protecting and enhancing the current and considerable rail passenger flows. Any buses or coaches needed should be reserved solely for serving Dawlish. Even Teignmouth can keep a rail service during sea wall related disruption, with a shuttle from Newton Abbot served by connecting servicfes off the DAL.

I appreciate that I may be in a minority in the rail enthusiast community, with its large supply of rose tinted spectacles. But one has to look first at which option is of more benefit to more people.

With the Dawlish avoiding line, you need a very expensive tunnel which will be needed about seven days a year. With the Okehampton route you get 365 days of parkway railway access for North West Devon, North West Ciornwall, Dartmoor and the growing town of Tavistock. You also get a diversiionary route for those seven days each year that the largest city in Devon and the entire county of Cornwall are cut off.

With the Dawlish avoiding line, you need a very expensive tunnel which will be needed about seven days a year. With the Okehampton route you get 365 days of parkway railway access for North West Devon, North West Ciornwall, Dartmoor and the growing town of Tavistock. You also get a diversiionary route for those seven days each year that the largest city in Devon and the entire county of Cornwall are cut off.

How.....much......will......it....cost?

A darn sight less than an unnecessary third direct route between London and Birmingham. And think of the benefit. You can get by train to any winter game at The Brickfields!  :P

Good answer! But I'm still waiting for someone to give a figure of how much it's going to cost, and without that, there's no basis for a sensible or meaningful debate!

The Peninsular Rail Task Force commissioned a report and the findings of January 2016 are here:-

https://peninsularailtaskforce.files.wordpress.com/2016/05/work-stream-summary-consultation-draft-v1-5-5-16-clean-copy.pdf

Pages 23 -26. e' cost of Okehampton to Tavistock £450m for a modest scheme. There are other costs, including upgrading Crediton to Okehampton for regular use which will have to be found if that proposed reinstatement of regular services actually happens. And also the bit between Bere Alston and Tavistock which seems to grind forwards ever so slowly!

I still reckon that figure was thought up by somebody who didn't want the job to be done, using the usual mathematical procedure of writing the BCR figure you wat to arrive at on the back of a fag packet, then working backwards.

Good news within for reopening Okehampton:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/778858/investing-in-the-sw.pdf

Certainly looks like it, but you can never be sure until at least 3 Transport Secretaries have said it.

We also want to bring back regular Exeter to Okehampton train services to further boost connectivity in the area and we recognise local aspirations for an Okehampton to Plymouth rail link.

A bit of a cracker, 'Investing in the South-West' - glossy, woolly, fluffy, and re-announcing a number of schemes that have already been completed...

A typical Dft publication then.

That does not look anything like a commitment to me!

The Dartmoor Railway is for sale:

https://www.walkersingleton.co.uk/machinery-business-asset/railway-operator-rolling-stock-rental-and-rail-maintenance-company/

The Dartmoor Railway Association say they are in the dark about this

...OkeRail aspirations of in running as part of the national network, and concerns that selling it as a working heritage railway to a heritage rail / tourism business organisation might get in the way of its wider use.

Not a problem in itself. If needed, Transport & Works Orders allow for compulsory purchase.

However,  considering the absurdly high costs now  being discussed just to get to Tavistock, I can't see much prospect of those compulsory purchase powers being needed in the foreseeable future, sadly.

The escalating and now astronomical costs of about £90m for laying a single line from Bere Alston to Tavistock, most recently quoted by NR; no doubt including their 66% allowance for 'contingency purposes ', hopefully will now be reviewed by Devon County Council's Scrutiny Committee.
Who knows, someone else might well be able to do it much cheaper.

With both an officially supported re-opening of main network services to Okehampton and an officially rejected strategy of providing a second route to Plymouth via Okehampton and Tavistock, it would be very wise for any prospective purchaser to do a "due diligence" study - a "what if" exercise to plan their business to work with (and generate a profit or at least an income) from their asset.   And it would be very wise for them to work with the various interests to allow assets to transfer in an orderly and forward-looking way.

Whilst compulsory purchase orders would be available at some unplanned (though not unforeseen by some) future date, what's the point at letting it get to that?  As I understand it, that would be a needless extra step in a whole potential process.

From my armchair (which is not even in the county!), I would personally like to see a future with metro trains up to Okehampton from Exeter, and from Plymouth up to Tavistock, with a connecting single track between the two. Nothing that needs heavy engineering for fast running, but a suitable route for an hourly diverted long distance express (NOT running as an "express") should the other route via Newton Abbott be unavailable.  I'm noticing yesterday than a skeleton London to Plymouth and Cornwall trains was running via Castle Cary rather than via Taunton, at short notice due to a fire just off the railway.  Sensible if there's a problem to the north of Exeter, with no equivalent option if there's something to the south thereof.   Back of fag packet in my armchair - 16 miles Okehampton to Tavistock, so 45 mph railway, single track all the way between the two, hourly emergency time service between them.  In normal times, hourly Okehampton to Exeter, hourly Tavistock to Plymouth, services join up like links in a chain with an hourly through service with a single additional train.  Appreciate that the mid section wouldn't be the busiest - especially in winter - but I suspect the overall economics would look a darned sight better than certain lines / services I could pick on in the British Isles away from Southern England where perhaps the political climate differs.

If we accept that well over £100,000,000,000 is to be spent on HS2, it's perhaps hard to see much money being made available elsewhere for infrastructure work such as this - indeed it'll probably be used as an excuse not to.

They spent equivalent amounts of money building the M1 and M6 to relieve the 'classic' rad routes to the north. That did not stop them building the M4 and the M5 to the west at the same time did it.

There is an argument for extending the M5 South to Plymouth...

However,  considering the absurdly high costs now  being discussed just to get to Tavistock, I can't see much prospect of those compulsory purchase powers being needed in the foreseeable future, sadly.