Great Western Coffee Shop

Not sure if this is the best place, but since Banbury is the only point where Wrexham & Shropshire touches the FGW network, here goes.

Wrexham & Shrophire's passenger service launch date will be Monday, April 28.
See http://www.wrexhamandshropshire.co.uk/item.php?id=22&type=1 (http://www.wrexhamandshropshire.co.uk/item.php?id=22&type=1)

As they are still waiting for their own refurbished Mk3 coaches to arrive - held up by the delays at Marcroft in Stoke completing the Grand Central fleet - they are going to hire Mk3s from Cargo-D's charter fleet to start operations. Not clear yet if they will be DVT-operated at the start, or top and tail 67s, which the test trains are. W&S trains will stop at Banbury to pick up northbound passengers and drop off southbound, running non-stop to and from Marylebone.

Traction will be hired EWS Class 67s in a special livery (67012-15). Couple have been finished at Toton so far, see http://geoffdoncaster18.fotopic.net/p49463043.html (http://geoffdoncaster18.fotopic.net/p49463043.html)

I have seen a suggestion that they are going to be running a full shadow service in the timetabled paths from April 22, to get staff in the swing of things, ahead of the public launch - probably hoping to avoid the problems that have dogged Grand Central - and there are a lot of training trips out there already.

There was some discussion previously of this service and Virgin's new Wrexham peak train to and from London Euston in the Pullman thread in Across the West.

Virgin will be running a five-car Voyager (extension of existing Chester services) but this is a pretty cynical spoiling move, as they have never shown any interest in the town until now.

In any case, W&S's real target is Shropshire, where Virgin's name is mud, after they took over from BR with loud promises about reinstating through trains from London to Telford and Shrewsbury, then discovered why BR had stopped doing it - the expense of having a diesel and driver specially at Wolverhampton and paying for shunters to couple and uncouple the loco - and dropped the service again.

There is also likely to be good demand at the stations between Shrewsbury and Wrexham, which, up until the end of the BR diesel operations, had at least one service direct from London on Friday evenings, which ran through to Chester (does anyone know if there was a return on Sundays, I'm not sure about that?). Journey times are quite long, but I'm sure the convenience of the through trains will be a winner with a lot of people.

More on this from the Save The Train Forum including a willc article (link below.)
http://www.savethetrain.org.uk/forum/index.php?topic=6724.msg11259#msg11259

I, too, think that Virign are mean for doing that.

It will just steal a high proportion of the profit peak passengers!

And, if the Shrewsbury service is successful, I would not stop thinking that Virgin might have a re-think.

 >:(

Further Oxford Mail article link.
http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.2184501.0.new_train_link_on_line.php

I'm intrigued by the 'rail competition rules'.

How do these come (and not come) into play, and who decides?

There are obviously several routes that operate over the same path, but use different operators (e.g South West Trains and FGW between London & Torquay/Plymouth/ Exeter). I know it is a different London terminus, but it is still London!

Don't Chiltern Trains (or whatever they are called now) also cover Banbury, as well as FGW?

The rail competition rules are really only in the West Coast mainline franchise agreement - this is due to the amount of potential loss there was to be made in this particular franchise, as a result no open access operator are permitted to directly compete with Virgin West Coast unless instructed to do so by the ORR.

Also.. The banbury stop on the route is only for picking up north-bound passengers, and dropping off south-bound, so it won't really affect chiltern or FGW.

Yes, that was my point!

If Banbury residents could catch Wrexham & Shropshire (W&S) trains to London, instead of FGW or Chiltern it would:

1. Make fares more competitive.
2. Reduce over-crowding.
3. Make the W&S more viable.

But, hey, I'm stupid, privatising the railways was not about improving service, or choice, or the experience for passengers was it? ;)

5 trains each weekday, 4 on Saturdays and 3 on Sunday is not going to have any impact on fares or over-crowding, when there are 2 direct trains each hour to London (and 2 more each hour with connections via Oxford).

It could have an impact on fares, remember, Grand Central only run three trains a day yet NXEC essentially forced ATOC to force GC to introduce a peak time supplement!

Half of W&S is owned by Laing Rail, aka Deutsche Bahn, the parent company of Chiltern Railways, so not a competitive issue there.

I'm not entirely sure how Banbury gets into the West Coast franchise competition clauses equation (and does anyone other than Virgin, DfT and ORR's lawyers know what it all means really?), but I have always understood that was why it was pick-up and set-down only there, as with Wolverhampton.

It is probably over the revenue-splitting arrangements in the West Midlands. CrossCountry links Wolverhampton and Banbury, and shares West Coast tracks north of Coventry or Birmingham, so I think that is where the answer lies.

Certainly it's not about Laing Rail competing with itself for traffic from Banbury to and from London and no-one does the journey on FGW as it takes far longer via Oxford and Reading.

From what I understand of the situation that's the actual reason but there are a few more complicating issues other than that (please don't ask me to go through them as I don't completely understand a few of the contractual reasons myself - seem rather pointless to me).

W&S website is now ready for start of services, with fares and other ticket information - emphasis on getting tickets texted to your mobile phone, online purchase not up-and-running just yet - plus on board services.

http://www.wrexhamandshropshire.co.uk/index.php (http://www.wrexhamandshropshire.co.uk/index.php)

For more info and pictures of test trains this week, see http://www.nwrail.org.uk (http://www.nwrail.org.uk)

Click on the noticeboard news and views link on the homepage.

looks excellent.

Hopefully the Virgin service will not affect it too much; they will be established by December, they have more of a personal/friendly touch, their journey time might be quicker in the next timetable!

willc article link on today's launch.
http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.2228624.0.new_rail_link_takes_to_tracks.php

It's all about as you say fare splitting and fair/unfair competition which brings about these absurb situations. Given that train cannot compete with train. Trains are in competiton with air, coaches and cars.

As I understand it Wrexham and Shropshire don't actually want London - Banbury passengerrs as there is considered to be an adequate Chiltern (2 tph) service on the same line. They want to get beyond Wolverhampton in teh quickest possible time to give the shortest overall time from Telford and Northwards to London. Which seems sensible.

As to the West Midlands and competition with Virgin then the murk deepens. One of the strange things about  the current setup is that if a TOC serves another area with just a few trains then it can extract 9% of the revenue from a station even if it doesn't provide 9% of the trains. This is I believe the situation with GC at York and why Wrexham and Shropshire only does pick up and set down to and from the  North at Wolverhampton otherwise they would get 9% of Wolverhampton's revenue and be in direct competition with Virgin. That's why they are using Tame Bridge Parkway as their London West Midlnds stop. The fact you can get a local train to Tame Bridge from Wolverhampton/New Street is neither here nor there.

I am certainly thinking of doing the trip ^36 first calss one way sounds good need to see what menus are to see which way one travels first. Probably 10:17 out quick trip to Bidston ^4 then back on last train 18:?? from Wrexham. On these light nights it will be daylight almost to Marylebone.

To highlight these absurbities when I looked  up a trip to Edinburgh I got given GC to York pick up the following East Coast to Edinburgh this was cheaper than going NEX all the way.

I doubt you got a GC then a NX, more likely GC then XC. For instance, the 0804 connects into the 1031 off York (24 min connection), the 1127 connects into the 1332 at York (13 min connection), the 1650 doesn't connect with any. In the reverse direction, can't see any connections...

BBC article link.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/7369998.stm

This is the first northbound train, 06.45 from Marylebone, awaiting departure from Banbury at 8am, with 67014 in Wrexham & Shropshire livery at the front. Has to be said it was pretty lightly-loaded, but not a great surprise on the first day. I had planned to hang around to photograph the first southbound train, due at 08.33, but it had a technical problem at Wellington, as the BBC say. Was eventually about 35 minutes late reaching Marylebone.

Yep willc, was 60 late at Tame Bridge Parkway... arrived 35 late at Marylebone.

SLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAACK!  :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

(most of the slack is between Tame Bridge Parkway and Banbury)

That's the problem with shutting seemingly duplicate lines in this case Snow Hill to Wolverhampton Low Level And the northward connections to Oxley and Bushbury. This means there is now no direct route off the GW (Chiltern) Northwards to Shrewsbury or Stafford.

Thus you either have to go round via Bordesley and New Street or Leamington to Coventry and then either Bescot or New Street. Both these routes using some of the most heavily used double track in the country.

Of course you could go from Bordesly up the Midland Mainline and take the Sutton Park Branch to Walsall but that would take days.

There is talk (and only talk) of putting in a spur North of  Snow Hill from the Stourbridge Jn line onto the Soho Loop Towards (Bescot). Thus Wrexham and Shropshire trains could serve Snow Hill and keep out of New Street and the other congested lines around Birmingham.

Further related link.
http://www.rmtbristol.org.uk/2008/04/rmt_welcomes_direct_wrexhamlon.html#more

When you think about it that's even worse. How can it be cheaper for me to get two diesel trains for a journey with wires all the way?

It just shows the absurbities of trying to get trains to compete with trains.

Yep.

On another note, here are the first 2 down paths for Wrexham and Shropshire.

1P01 London Marylebone to Wrexham General

London Marylebone             0645
Neasden South Jn       PASS   0653
Wembley Stadium        PASS   0655
South Ruislip          PASS   0700
West Ruislip           PASS   0702
Gerrards Cross         PASS   0706
High Wycombe           PASS   0715
Saunderton             PASS   0722
Princes Risborough     PASS   0725
Bicester North         PASS   0742
Aynho Junction         PASS   0753
Banbury                0758   0800
Fenny Compton          PASS   0808
Leamington Spa         PASS   0817
Milverton Jn           PASS   0819
Kenilworth             PASS   0823
Coventry Park Jn       PASS   0825
Coventry               PASS   0829
Birmingham Intl        PASS   0845
Stechford              PASS   0850
Aston                  PASS   0857
Perry Barr Jns         PASS   0902
Tame Bridge Parkway    0905   0906
Bescot Stadium         PASS   0909
Darlaston Jn           PASS   0912
Portobello Jn          PASS   0918
Wolverhampton          0923   0925
Wolverhampton Jn       PASS   0927
Oxley Viaduct          PASS   0928
Cosford                0939   0940
Madeley Jn             PASS   0947
Telford Central        0950   0951
Wellington             PASS   0957
Shrewsbury             PASS   1031
Wrexham Central        1044

1J81 London Marylebone to Wrexham General
London Marylebone             1017
Neasden South Jn       PASS   1024
Wembley Stadium        PASS   1025
South Ruislip          PASS   1031
West Ruislip           PASS   1032
Gerrards Cross         PASS   1037
High Wycombe           PASS   1046
Saunderton             PASS   1051
Princes Risborough     PASS   1055
Bicester North         PASS   1113
Aynho Junction         PASS   1123
Banbury                1127   1129
Fenny Compton          PASS   1137
Leamington Spa         PASS   1147
Hatton                 PASS   1154
Dorridge               PASS   1159
Bentley Heath Xing     PASS   1200
Tyseley                PASS   1209
Bordesley South Jn     PASS   1212
St Andrews Jn          PASS   1216
Proof House Jn         PASS   1221
Birmingham New Street  PASS   1227
Soho South Jn          PASS   1231
Soho East Jn           PASS   1233
Perry Barr West Jn     PASS   1236
Perry Barr North Jn    PASS   1237
Tame Bridge Parkway    1240   1241
Bescot Stadium         PASS   1243
Darlaston Jn           PASS   1245
Portobello Jn          PASS   1248
Wolverhampton          1253   1255
Wolverhampton Jn       PASS   1257
Oxley Viaduct          PASS   1258
Cosford                1306   1307
Madeley Jn             PASS   1312
Telford Central        1314   1315
Wellington             1320   1321
Shrewsbury             1336   1341
Gobowen                1402   1407
Chirk                  1411   1412
Ruabon                 1418   1419
Wrexham Central        1426

willc article link.
http://www.oxfordmail.net/news/headlines/display.var.2233590.0.rail_link_makes_perfect_start.php

Um, afraid that Snow Hill Tunnel is full to capacity (8tph each way - difficult to break the even clockwork timetable), and can't be widened!

Only 8tph that's a train every 71/2 minutes if the Metro quits the fourth platform as is planned  then with proper signalling you could get 12 tph fairly easily. If Moor street terminal platforms were used then that's  more capacity for through trains.

The service has been hailed a success by managers (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/7496293.stm

The firm's commercial director Richard Harper said it had carried about 5,000 passengers each week since the route opened.

Let's hope that Virgin do not ruin it!

An average of 78 passengers per train isn't bad in the early days. Of more interest is how rapidly the trend is upwards.

I would have thought the majority of the trade is going to be from Shropshire stations, so the sole Wrexham to London Virgin service may not be too much of a threat. Besides, I suspect the fare differential will be huge.

There's an interview with Peter Wilkinson, one of the directors of Renaissance Trains, Chiltern/DB's partner in W&S and the founders of Hull Trains, in the current issue of Rail, in which he says: "For now Shrewsbury and Telford are key to this service's success".

They already have some satisfied customers there, according to their website: Cllr Brian Williams, Speaker and Vice Chairman of Shropshire County Council, who said: ^I am pleased to say that myself and other officers and members of the County Council have already used and were well satisfied with this service and we will continue to use it regularly.^

Wrexham is more of a slow build in Mr Wilkinson's view, but going on experience of the old BR through trains on Friday and Sunday evenings, I would expect there's a healthy level of demand to and from the stations in Wales and the north of Shropshire at those times of the week.

One interesting footnote is that he says the cost of running the Class 67s and Mk3s is about the same as running 170s, which Hull Trains began life with.

As promised, from December there are noticable improvements in the WS&M schedules allowing for faster journeys. The majority of trains are quicker, with a few of them saving almost half-an-hour on the trhough trip. Marylebone to Shrewsbury is now possible in 3hrs 01m, and Wrexham to Marlebone can be done in 3hrs 45m - still not exactly lightening fast and you can comfortably beat that from Wrexham to Euston via Virgin Trains, but any improvement is going to be good for business. It's also noticable that the largest improvements have been made on the busiest business services - the first two up trains and the 2nd from last down train.

The weekday summary is as follows (current service in brackets)

Wrexham         05:12  (05:42)     07:23  (07:25)     11:23  (11:10)     15:23  (15:10)     17:23  (18:10)
Shrewsbury      05:52  (06:25)     08:07  (08:10)     12:07  (11:53)     16:07  (15:53)     18:07  (18:53)
Marylebone      08:57  (09:54)     11:23  (11:49)     15:22  (15:23)     19:22  (19:22)     21:20  (22:15)

Marylebone      06:45  (06:45)     10:17  (10:17)     12:17  (13:17)     16:33  (16:10)     20:03  (20:03)
Shrewsbury      09:58  (10:10)     13:32  (13:41)     15:32  (16:34)     19:34  (19:36)     23:10  (23:13)
Wrexham         10:44  (10:44)     14:23  (14:28)     16:23  (17:25)     20:23  (20:28)     23:57  (23:57)

Good to see some of the worst meanderings through the West Midlands have been trimmed a bit.

It's important not to forget the problems posed for W&S and ATW by pathing on the single-line sections between Gobowen and Wrexham and from Wrexham to the outskirts of Chester, which are creaking under the strain like the Cotswold Line, with increasing numbers of passenger trains fighting for space with steel services between South Wales and Shotton.

Indeed. I was on a boating holiday down the Llangollen Canal earlier in the year which included navigating across the Chirk Aquaduct which is right next to the railway viaduct. We also stopped (as is the tradition) at a local pub which had a fine view of the crossings and I was surprised just how many trains passed over during our stop.

I hope that these times to not affect the reliability of services (and LM, ATW, CH services).

But it is much better.

I still fear many will opt for the Virgin service though...

But they are proposing a grand total of one through train from Wrexham and one back, at a hefty morning peak premium over W&S fares, unless they are going to cut their current open returns. And, more importantly for W&S, Virgin aren't serving Shrewsbury and Telford, which is where W&S is generating a lot of business travel revenue, which can only be boosted by a 9am arrival in London.

Yes, the arrival before 0900 will make the service more attractive for business travellers, as 0954 is a bit too late. And pushing back the late afternoon departure by 20 mins will also allow more leeway for business travellers. So all together a big improvement, and I hope they succeed.

I have pondered whether they should seek to fill the gaps by adding an extra diagram, maybe only Shrewsbury to London, to gain maximum productivity of the extra set? If this could result in 2 extra services from Shropshire into London then it would take away the main disadvantage, which is the large intervals between trains. I wouldn't want to just miss one because I was held up on the tube.

Ah, but the tube will be so much better in future, John: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7634288.stm

 ;D

First overhauled W&S DVT is now out on test, see http://www.daves-trains.fotopic.net/p53770106.html (http://www.daves-trains.fotopic.net/p53770106.html)

I don't think you need fear for reliability of W&S and CH, the signalmen like them.

ATW and LM, well they take their chance.

;D ;D

Was At Marylebone today and the 16.10 looked pretty well loaded =]

A Shropshire council has called on people to use the town's rail link to London amid fears it could be scrapped (link below.)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/shropshire/7833125.stm

Wrexham and Shropshire Railway is reviewing its timetable and said Wellington could be dropped from the new timetable in May.

It said it had concerns about the layout of the station and the number of fare dodgers using it.

Richard Harper, commercial manager, said passenger numbers on the London route had also been disappointing.

Does anyone know whether the concern about passengers on the London route is specific to Wellington, or a more general comment. If the latter then it doesn't bode well for the service, which would be a terrible shame.

BBC story is a skimpy follow-up of a report in the Shropshire Star two days previously, which gives rather more detail and I think makes it clear they mean Wellington-London passenger numbers, not generally.

It's a short run between Wellington and Telford Central, neither of which has ticket barriers (and I think Wellington's booking office shuts at lunchtime as well), and it's probably not a massive surprise the train W&S have particular concerns about is just after schools finish for the day. Presumably it's children hoping for a free ride down to the Telford shopping centre to hang out down there.

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2009/01/14/fears-for-future-of-rail-link/

Do you have any info on what passenger numbers are currently like in general, willc?

Not at the moment Lee. I was waiting for their overhauled trains to appear to give me a reason to do a how things are going piece for the paper, but just like the Grand Central HSTs, Marcroft at Stoke seem to be taking forever to actually do the work on the Mk3s. The first set was supposed to be ready late last year but still no sign of it.

What I have found is an interview the md, Andy Hamilton, did with Railnews last December and it says  passenger journeys between W&S^s catchment area and London increased by 32 per cent in the first five months of W&S operations (May-September effectively, first trains ran at end of April), compared with the same period last year, which I don't think is a coincidence, there has also been a surge in numbers of London tickets sold from the towns Grand Central serves - direct trains do draw custom.

Full interview is here http://www.railnews.co.uk/opinions/interviews/2008/12/02-andy-hamilton.html (http://www.railnews.co.uk/opinions/interviews/2008/12/02-andy-hamilton.html)

Since Grand Central has sorted itself out I think its quite a popular service: http://paulbigland.fotopic.net/p55072546.html

It really is bad how Telford Central was built without ticket barriers.

I have travelled from there several times, and the platforms are very open.

Part of the problem is that the over-bridge also acts as a major public footpath to the town centre.

Oh well, it could be worse (and it will speed trains up!).

Readers of February's Modern Railways are being offered two ^1 standard class returns on WSMR Monday to Fridays until 13th March.

Trouble is you have to be on 06:45 ex Marylebone (08:00 Banbury).

But still might be worth investigating

It looks like Wrexham & Shropshire will be introducing another service on weekdays from the next timetable change. The following is stated in the excellent Chiltern Railways 'Passenger Consultation' document which is available to view here: http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/plan-your-journey/download-our-timetable/ (http://www.chilternrailways.co.uk/plan-your-journey/download-our-timetable/)

'Additionally, to facilitate the introduction of an additional Wrexham & Shropshire service, the following minor re-timings will occur in the evening peak:

1833 to Bicester to depart at 1836
1837 to Aylesbury via High Wycombe to depart at 1839
1840 to Aylesbury via Amersham to depart at 1842

And to even out loadings, it is intended to lengthen the 1803 Marylebone to Bicester North from 3 cars to 4, by reducing the 1741 Marylebone to Stratford-upon-Avon from 4 cars to 3.'

Other potential Chiltern improvements include additional trains in the late evening to improve on capacity out of Marylebone, numerous minor tweaks, and a late evening service from Oxford-Banbury at gone midnight which will improve on the current last train at 22:56 offering Banbury residents a full night out in Oxford without worrying about getting back to the station by 11pm (this train already runs empty stock from Oxford formed off of the late Stratford-Oxford service).

Good stuff all round!

There is an express to b'ham at 1830, so I expect the w&s service will follow it 3 mins later.

That will be a major improvement to the W&S by filling in the long gap that currently exists, and which probably deters some business travellers.

On the basis of what I have been told by W&S, more like an adjustment of the timetable, with there still being five trains each way.

Full story at: http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/4112728.Rail_firm_plans_new_peak_service/ (http://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/4112728.Rail_firm_plans_new_peak_service/)

Interesting.

Chiltern Railways' proposed timetable plans document is ambiguous:


"Additional" is the problem word.

So I wonder whether the current 4.30 ish train is being axed? (to be replaced by the 6.30 ish)

Unlikely, as it's also a key travel time. And what I was told was clear - three afternoon services. I wouldn't be surprised it if means the end of the 20.03. It's unlikely to be a huge draw for passengers - it gets to Shrewsbury at 23.15 and Wrexham just shy of midnight.

Ah....

I, too, would think it mad to withdraw the 4ish train.

Re usage of trains, there is post on the North Wales Coast Railway site about a trip on W&S on Saturday, Jan 31, where 105 people got off at Marylebone from the 6.18 from Wrexham, so about two thirds full and not bad for a journey requiring a pretty early start for a weekend, leaving Shrewsbury at 7.05 and Telford at 7.24.

And now Virgin Trains discovers a sudden desire to serve Telford and Shrewsbury again...

http://www.shropshirestar.com/2009/02/23/virgin-plans-london-rail-link/ (http://www.shropshirestar.com/2009/02/23/virgin-plans-london-rail-link/)

I could think of a few things to say but will confine myself to observing that if they can spare the Voyagers to go on this magical mystery tour, including the Sutton Park line to Walsall, maybe they could give them back to XC instead, where they could be put to better uses than trying to put W&S out of business and making up for all the main line stops they cut at Nuneaton from December, which have made Virgin's name dirt in north Warwickshire, just as it became in Shropshire after they reversed their much-trumpeted reintroduction of through trains following privatisation.

Very interesting, obviously W&S are affecting Virgins Shrewsbury/Telford takings.

Did you see the other bit about Arriva wanting to revive an old service from Aberystwth to London Marylebone. I thought the Cambrian Coast Express ran from Paddington.

What stock would they use, with the line going already RETB and shortly to be ERTMS they are going to be very short of suitable stock to run their normal services let alone have a unit disappear for 4 hours or more going from Birmingham to Marylebone and back.

Plus does it also have to have ATP (Chiltern) for Anyho Marylebone and LUL trainstop to run via Aylesbury (reverse) when the line South of Risborough is shut. Chiltern  did this during the recent Evergreen 2 work..

Its disgraceful really, it shows that Virmin have spare stock (221s) that could be used to alleviate some of the ridiculous conditions you are likely to find when travelling with everybody's favourite, Cross Country.

This makes my blood boil. >:(

 Someone called Jake has summed it up on the comments below the article.


Jake - you've hit the nail on the head!

And I agree with Devon Metro - this shows to me that VWC did not need those 5 extra Voyagers in December.

If it happens, I can't see W&S surviving. Their peak demand from Wrexham, Shrewsbury and Telford will be gone - along with the season ticket holders and "Anytime" holders.

Grrrr......
 >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

I think thats totally out of order.

W&S are a fabulous company and I would choose a MKIII/67 over a Voyager any day. As I'm sure the majority of the CoffeShop would :;D

W&S are doing a great job, so why can't VT just leave them alone and admit defeat?? They had their chance, they chose not to take it. As far as i'm concerned, thats Tough Luck.

I guess it's all to do with ^ and politics between rival companies, take my First Class Lounge incident for example!

VT are too powerful, I frown at them >:(

I'm a bit confused at the timings. ???

Assuming that the West Coast timetable is not going to be re-cast next year, I can't see where the trains fit in with the current timetable.

The article says that the trains will leave London at 1033 and 1746. But the Chester/Bangor/Holyhead services (the Voyager route) leave Euston at XX10.

No VT service leaves Euston at XX33. And at XX46, a LM service departs (for Crewe).

There are also no other matches on "up" services.

Perhaps the trains will be running independently. Will they call at Nuneaton?

I expect VT will call at Tame Bridge, to ensure W&S are wiped out completely...... >:(

Would I be right in thinking that if I bought a Ticket on a W&S train, they would get the money for it?

If so I will personally make sure that I do so to give them my full support over VT ;D

Yes, I am a mean person :P ;)

If you buy a ticket on their train then they will get all the money only if the route is W&S only. 

Any other ticket will be shared out according to a set formula.  it wont matter where you buy it from.

Super TM it is right it is a very complex formula.

In essence I believe any TOC that stops a train at a station gets a minimum of 9% of the revenue of that station. That's why NXEC don't like Grand Central stopping at York as it means GC gets at least 9% of York revenues even if they don't provided 9% of the services. Hence Virgin will want to stop at Tame Bridge Parkway.

Further if you buy a ticket online from say Chiltern (well recommended), they get a minimum of 9% of the fare just for issuing the ticket, even if your journey dosen't go anywhere near a Chiltern train.

As far as I know to get all the money for a ticket sale the TOC has to be the sole provider of the service on the route, so not a shared service or any changes to other TOCs, and be the ticket seller. So Taplow Maidenhead would all be FGW revenue if sold at either station.

How tickets are apportioned for multi TOC journeys I don't know.

London gets very complicated with apportioning the Zonal portion of season tickets and travelcards. I believe TOCS pay TFL a portion of the fare to cover an all Zone ticket. TFL then doles out the money to London Buses, DLR, Croydon trams, LUL and the TOCs providing services within the zones.

What in effect has happened is that there is now a computerised Railway Clearing House allocating ticket revenue to the TOCs.

This [above] doesn't sound quite right. AIUI, the 9% is a commission paid 'off the top' of all tickets to the seller. That will either be the TOC that runs the station ticket office, or the TOC telesales, or the TOC booking website, trainline, raileasy, or a rail appointed travel agent.

That then leaves either 91% of the face value to be shared out under Orcats rules, or 91% direct to the appropriate TOC if the fare is an 'Advance'

[Advance + connections are a half way house - some goes to the TOC, and some via Orcats - e.g. the '+connections' leg.]

Paul

The route Virgin are proposing doesn't go via Tame Bridge, but via Walsall. The Sutton Park line runs from Walsall to Water Orton, where the Nuneaton and Derby lines divide east of Brimingham, and allows freight from those directions and the south-west to reach Bescot without going through New Street, or bypass Birmingham altogether. There have long been proposals to reopen it to provide a circular Birmingham-Walsall-Sutton Coldfield-Birmingham passenger service but nothing has happened so far.

I'm sure the trains would run separate from anything else. Coupling and uncoupling would muck up the timings of Chester and North Wales services.

As I said, Virgin has got a lot of flak in north Warwickshire for cutting services from Nuneaton - with people being told to use LM's 3+2 suburban EMUs instead. Remind you of any other recent changes of train type by our favourite operator? This way Virgin can claim they are doing something, even if it's not the real reason.

There will be fierce objections to this plan from W&S, ATW - whose own London plans were clearly something Virgin also doesn't like - and I would also expect the Shropshire councils and MPs to take a dim view. They have been let down before by Virgin, who, when the Voyagers and Pendolinos were being delivered, chose not to anything better than than the single Shrewsbury train a day they offered from 1998-2004. As you can see from the comments on the Shropshire Star's story, most of the locals seem pretty sceptical too.

And don't be surprised if XC ask for some Voyagers back.

I didn't realise they were going that way - the Sutton Park line - an obvious choice now you mention it - I wonder what line speeds will be like...

Perhaps the introduction of local passengers services will become a step closer (or perhaps the VT service could stop at Aldridge).

I expect they'll stop at Walsall to cream off W&S's revenue. >:(

Are they ever going to get their own W & S rolling stock which seems to have been 12 months in coming.

Stock is still being finished at Stoke. Believe the delay is to do with W&S changing the specification for the interiors at a late stage, as bodywork repairs on the coaches were well under way last summer. May also be that there still seem to be some Grand Central coaches going through the workshop as well.

But doesn't look like it will be too long now, here's a pic of a painted W&S coach in the yard at Marcroft http://cjburgess.photographs.fotopic.net/p56437016.html (http://cjburgess.photographs.fotopic.net/p56437016.html)

Virgin say they will stop at Walsall - but it's not about Walsall or Tame Bridge, it's about Telford and Shrewsbury revenue, where it's clear W&S has been taking it away from Virgin/ATW.

And it's called the Sutton Park Line - because it runs through Sutton Park.

Not right, as Paul 7755 has said. The 9% is if you like the commission for the sale of the ticket. Orcats allocates the rest. Crudely if GC run 3 of 30 fast trains to York, they will get 10% of the revenue. But it's a lot more complicated than that, as FCC will get a fraction of the revenue as their trains might be used as far as Peterborough, and I believe services via Cambridge also get a tiny portion of revenue as that is a permitted route too. There are further adjustments to be made for the fact that passengers are more likely to take trains that are faster.

So all very complicated, and just one of the many industries created by privatisation that never existed before.

So, as an aside, if you buy your Bristol to London ticket through the Nat ExEC website, they get 9% of the revenue. I can't decide whether that's a good thing or not!

Futher slight tweaks to the new WSMR timetable sees around 5-10 minutes shaved off of the through journey times from Wrexham to London on most trains. The fourth service has now been extended through from Shrewsbury to Wrexham, though it's still one train per weekday short of the original quota.

Also, trains are now stopping to pick up and set down at Banbury and Leamington Spa, meaning a more frequent service to and from London for those stations.

And the 1st class supplement payable on the train to / from Banbury / Leamington will be ^15 single.

Also, you'll be able to use Network CVards / GoldCards to / from Banbury on WSMR....

One wonders how this compares with the 1st class Anytime Day fares from Banbury/Leamington to London. Chiltern are putting these up by 46% from January. So as soon as Banbury and Leamington get a 1st class direct to London service, the TOC responsible for setting the fare hike it massively. And this from a TOC that doesn't even have 1st class on it's own services.

Hmmm, I think you need to go and do your homework - the 1st Class fare from Banbury to London Terminals is set by FGW.

How much is the new fare?

Looking up return 1st class fares for 5 December & 5 January, I can only find an ^89 fare - and that's for both dates, before & after the fare rises!

Oh, the 1st class fares aren't *Day* fares either it seems, they are valid a month.

So, with the peak fare of ^49.50 plus ^30 in supplements, thiscompares  favourably with the ^89 1st class Anytime return: ^10 cheaper!

And of course, on off-peak, or even super off-peak! Standard fares, the savings are huge! And even bigger with Network or Gold Card discounted Standard fares (adding on the  supplements)....

I wonder whether the take-up on the supplement will not leave sufficient room from WSMR passengers going north of Birmingham?.....

Sorry Chris but according to a staff website done by ATOC (The Manual) the Banbury to London fare is indeed priced by Chiltern

Current price: First Day Return :: ^89
New price: First Day Return :: ^130

Btline, where are you...?!  ;)

We need somebody to give Chiltern's disgusting, appalling fare increases the same treatment that FGW's had...

Oh, and put in lots of these  >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(

So long as the train calls at no intermediate stations I can't see any problems ;)

I picked up the information from The Fact Compiler's Railway Eye (http://railwayeye.blogspot.com/) blog.

And as other's have pointed out, the fare from Banbury is set by Chiltern, (from Leamington there is a route Banbury fare set by Chiltern, and an Any Permitted set by Virgin). I did go and do my homework and checked the blog information elsewhere before posting here.

And the fare you pay is the current fare regardless of your date of travel. Always worth remembering if you intend to purchase tickets for travel on a date after a price increase.

So... <scratches head> ...assuming I've got this right:

a. Chiltern sets the first class Banbury to London fare;
b. Chiltern got rid of first class on its services some years ago;
c. Therefore, no-one in their right mind would use anything other than XC and/or FGW to make that first class journey. From a very quick check on NRES it looks like the journey to PAD is only very slightly longer than the direct journey to MYB.

Does Chiltern still get a share of the revenue for those tickets from ORCATS? Does anyone ever buy them? The cynic in me was wondering if it was some kind of under-hand tactic to get people to travel on Chiltern services rather than FGW. However, assuming the standard and first class tickets are both inter-available I can't see how that makes any sense.

My brain aches.


I'm not sure that's entirely correct. I also thought that it was the case, and posted to that effect on here a while ago (probably around the time of the annual fares rise fuss last year). I was corrected by some rail staff who pointed out that at some arbitrary date machines would be updated with the new fares, resulting in any advance-dated tickets being issued at the raised price from then on.

I'm not sure that's entirely correct. I also thought that it was the case, and posted to that effect on here a while ago (probably around the time of the annual fares rise fuss last year). I was corrected by some rail staff who pointed out that at some arbitrary date machines would be updated with the new fares, resulting in any advance-dated tickets being issued at the raised price from then on.
[/quote]

Yes that is right.  With the old ticket machines they did not have enough memory to hold two different fare rates so when the price increased if you bought a ticket in advance they old price would be applied.  The new machines dont do this and when they load the new data the higher price will be charged for advance purchased tickets.  I believe the new prices were loaded in on Monday 30th November so advance purchase tickets for travel after 2nd January will now be at the higher rate.

So what you are saying is that if I go to a ticket office and buy my 1st class Anytime Day Return Banbury to London Terminals for travel on, say, 11th February 2010 I'll pay the Jan 2010 increased fare of ^130? Or are you of the opinion that increased prices only apply to Advance Purchase tickets rather than any ticket bought in advance? I've just checked with a few online retailers and as of today I can still get the Banbury to London Terminals 1st class Anytime Day Return fare at ^89 for 11/02/2010. It would be a little perverse (though not unexpected) if there was such a huge price differential for an online ticket purchase versus one bought at a station, excepting online promotions of which there are none in this case.

There will no doubt be some increases in unregulated ADV fares from Jan, but, as yet there appears to be no difference in fares offered for travel two weeks hence or six weeks hence. I've only checked a small sample, but I see no evidence of Jan fares increases being offered for sale online yet.

And blakey....my brains aching too.

I agree with this in principle, but not the timescale. The last few years it has been just about 3 weeks beforehand when the new fares have gone live - last year it was around the 7th or 8th of Dec. They haven't changed yet, I've been checking for the major upheaval in London fares if you don't use Oyster PAYG. I'd estimate that the upload could happen this coming Monday?

Edit: 30th Nov could well be the date NFM05 data became available from 'The Manual' - AIUI it isn't uploaded to the customer facing systems at the same time.

Paul

I think that another check might find the new fares being charged now for post Jan 2 travel.....

Oh, and Chiltern's comments about the 1st class fare rise?.....

"I can confirm that we set the first class fare from Banbury and it is increasing, but we are still offering the supplement as previously discussed.

As you know, at present there aren't many direct services with first class but these will increase when the W&S services have open calls. We recognise the potential popularity of the first class accommodation, but are also concerned that we don't want to have over crowding. I believe you voiced the same concerns as well. Therefore, we have increased the first class fare to de-incentivise the season ticket, but will be offering the on board supplement to allow us to offer a value for money product whilst managing the uptake. As you pointed out earlier, there is no point in having passengers standing in first class!

There is a view that as time goes on we will better understand the demand for W&S services (and Chiltern for that matter) post recession, which as you can imagine is only guess work at this point until we see how the market develops. However, we have taken steps to allow us to secure future rolling stock to meet future demand be it standard, or first class."

Does that mean they do not want first class sason ticket holders?

Almost certainly yes. Given the service is primarily aimed at travellers to the WM and beyond, if 1st class was filled with season ticket holders, it would completely devalue the proposition for the main target market (coming out of London in the evening), if they couldn't get a seat going home.  The problem doesn't arise on the inward journey because the target market are already sitting comfortably by the Leamington and Banbury calls.

How about the (maybe rare) person who if lived in shrewsbury (I'm 30 miles south) WOULD use them in both directions

Yes - they became publicly available by the 7th, as I suggested just above.  I'm pretty sure it happened overnight 6/7, so that matches last year, the start of the week 3-4 weeks ahead.

Paul

They probably haven't considered that possibility, and have focused on the risk of season ticket holders from Banbury and Leamington utilising all the 1st Class space.

The 1st class prices from Shrewsbury haven't increased.....so no change.