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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: grahame on June 08, 2020, 07:01:14



Title: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: grahame on June 08, 2020, 07:01:14
From Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keilbahnhof

Keilbahnhof (plural: Keilbahnhöfe, literally: "wedge station") is the German word for a station located between branching tracks.[1] There appears to be no direct English equivalent for this term, (though 'junction station' would be an equivalent meaning) which appears in the route diagrams of German railway lines. In a keilbahnhof, the platforms curve in opposite directions so that they are parallel at one end of the station & not at the other.

I can think of some in the UK (Dovey Junction springs to mind) ... but none currently GWR.  Anyone?


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: CyclingSid on June 08, 2020, 07:10:48
Also not GWR, Virginia Water.

There were more in the past, but I think Mr Beeching probably removed them, possibly Moat Lane Junction and Christs Hospital.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: rogerw on June 08, 2020, 08:13:35
In the north west there is Earlestown & Kidsgrove. Greater London has Crystal Palace. West Midlands has Barnt Green, then Lewes in Sussex, Not forgetting Shipley in West Yorkshire which manages platforms on all three sides of a triangle. Can't think of any in GWR land although I suppose Liskeard is our nearest equivalent.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Electric train on June 08, 2020, 08:40:52
Lewisham on the SE route.

I suppose historically Westbourne Park would have been, with the 'ot n cold and the GWR main lines, but of course now it no longer has mainline platforms


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: martyjon on June 08, 2020, 09:35:50
One station that might come in that category had it not been closed by Breeching as it was in WR territory and would be in GWR territory today is Mangotsfield.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Robin Summerhill on June 08, 2020, 10:19:17
Also not GWR, Virginia Water.

There were more in the past, but I think Mr Beeching probably removed them, possibly Moat Lane Junction and Christs Hospital.

Kemble

Mangotsfield edited out because I was beaten to it!


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: martyjon on June 08, 2020, 10:55:58
Would Filton Abbey Wood qualify ?


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: stuving on June 08, 2020, 11:01:28
Topologically, but double and grade-separated, Raynes Park. (Is there a specific German word for that kind?)

I think the south of London networks are the natural habitat of the beasties here - Hither Green and Sutton also qualify.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: eightf48544 on June 08, 2020, 11:08:11
There is another type of station which I think is unique to Germany which is where two lines cross and you have basically      2 or 4 platforms serving both lines. I've changed at three.

Salzgitter Ringelheim  Hanover Halle line with a line from Braunswieg to Soth Harz
Grimmenthal near Meiningen.

Both I seem to recall pretty bleak just open plafrom not shelters and you cross the tracks on the level.

Sandersleben, near Halle there were station buidings but shut up.

Not sure if any of them were staffed.

However they do show the difference between a planned network and a competitive one.  You are at least able to change routes without a long walk.

I'm trying think of UK equivalent, thanks Stuving for reminding me Sutton is a near equivalent but in the German examples the lines don't share the same platfroms.

 


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: stuving on June 08, 2020, 11:28:13
I can think of some in the UK (Dovey Junction springs to mind) ... but none currently GWR.  Anyone?

Severn Tunnel Junction!

And if you say "aren't the platform faces parallel?", I'll reply "not quite - have you measured them?"


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: grahame on June 08, 2020, 12:02:00
I can think of some in the UK (Dovey Junction springs to mind) ... but none currently GWR.  Anyone?

Severn Tunnel Junction!

And if you say "aren't the platform faces parallel?", I'll reply "not quite - have you measured them?"

[pedant]Isn't Severn Tunnel Junction a Transport for Wales Station?[/pedant] - but, yes, served by GWR trains


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: PhilWakely on June 08, 2020, 13:01:15
Whilst not run by GWR, don't GWR trains run through St Denys?


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: grahame on June 08, 2020, 13:10:50
There is another type of station which I think is unique to Germany which is where two lines cross and you have basically      2 or 4 platforms serving both lines. I've changed at three.

I think that comes from them starting off as different companies?

We have similar - but on a much grander scale and with "leakage" between the lines in the UK, don't we, at Peterborough, Nuneaton, and Cardiff Central.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: CyclingSid on June 08, 2020, 13:37:00
Quote
Whilst not run by GWR, don't GWR trains run through St Denys?

Will the Cardiff to Portsmouth/Brighton do?


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Robin Summerhill on June 08, 2020, 14:00:35
Another "used to be" in our neck of the woods was Ashchurch. And Coaley Junction would also qualify I think


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Robin Summerhill on June 08, 2020, 14:04:10
And Berkeley Road

They're coming in thick and fast aren't they  ;D

Thinking more about it, the Midland Railway seems to be disproportionately represented in the examples listed so far.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on June 08, 2020, 14:26:09
Further afield but iconic: Carnforth. Branch line platforms still in use, of course.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Oxonhutch on June 08, 2020, 14:43:22
Further afield but iconic: Carnforth. Branch line platforms still in use, of course.
Briefly encountered them once ...


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Robin Summerhill on June 08, 2020, 15:06:41
Further afield but iconic: Carnforth. Branch line platforms still in use, of course.
Briefly encountered them once ...

Carnforth then and now

https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/43233327394/


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: BBM on June 08, 2020, 15:16:48
Ambergate used to be a triangular station like Shipley, and yet another Midland Railway example.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Robin Summerhill on June 08, 2020, 16:37:04
Nobody's mentioed Keighley yet, and its still almost fully operational


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: rogerw on June 08, 2020, 17:10:48
Also Mangotsfield from days gone by


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: stuving on June 08, 2020, 17:38:20
Topologically, but double and grade-separated, Raynes Park. (Is there a specific German word for that kind?)

I think the south of London networks are the natural habitat of the beasties here - Hither Green and Sutton also qualify.

Maybe there's fewer than I thought in the London suburbs (though Lewes is the classic one further out). I suspect there's more around Paris, or at least similar oddly-shaped platforming arrangements. Asnières-sur-Seine is a proper one, but Bécon-les-Bruyères (the next station) isn't quite: it's disjunct (i.e. two separate stations with tracks between them). Ermont-Eaubonne used to be one, but fifteen years ago they disjunctioned it - the branch that looped south towards St Lazare now terminates at this end.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: ellendune on June 08, 2020, 18:54:17
In London itself Baker Street Metropolitan/Circle/H&C lines LUL


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: adc82140 on June 08, 2020, 19:16:38
Don't think anyone's mentioned Raynes Park in SWR land.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: JontyMort on June 08, 2020, 20:16:39
From Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keilbahnhof

Keilbahnhof (plural: Keilbahnhöfe, literally: "wedge station") is the German word for a station located between branching tracks.[1] There appears to be no direct English equivalent for this term, (though 'junction station' would be an equivalent meaning) which appears in the route diagrams of German railway lines. In a keilbahnhof, the platforms curve in opposite directions so that they are parallel at one end of the station & not at the other.

I can think of some in the UK (Dovey Junction springs to mind) ... but none currently GWR.  Anyone?

In a sense, Worcester Foregate Street counts. From the eastern end, you can only go to Shrub Hill/ London from one platform, and only to Droitwich/Birmingham from the other.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: grahame on June 08, 2020, 20:35:17
From Wikipedia - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keilbahnhof

Keilbahnhof (plural: Keilbahnhöfe, literally: "wedge station") is the German word for a station located between branching tracks.[1] There appears to be no direct English equivalent for this term, (though 'junction station' would be an equivalent meaning) which appears in the route diagrams of German railway lines. In a keilbahnhof, the platforms curve in opposite directions so that they are parallel at one end of the station & not at the other.

I can think of some in the UK (Dovey Junction springs to mind) ... but none currently GWR.  Anyone?

In a sense, Worcester Foregate Street counts. From the eastern end, you can only go to Shrub Hill/ London from one platform, and only to Droitwich/Birmingham from the other.

And in a sense not because it's not got platforms between the tracks.

Amazing how many different setups we can find!


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Surrey 455 on June 08, 2020, 21:16:37
Don't think anyone's mentioned Raynes Park in SWR land.

I was beaten to it by Stuving.  :)


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Robin Summerhill on June 08, 2020, 21:43:57

Amazing how many different setups we can find!

Yes (OT) like Manchester Victoria and Exchange in a way sharing a platform. Victoria P11 at one end and Exchange P3 at the other


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Electric train on June 08, 2020, 21:50:27
Paddington its self could be in this group, main line terminating platforms with through running 'ott n colds (Plat 15 and 16)


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: PhilWakely on June 09, 2020, 07:40:30
Somewhat further afield, but Perth (Scotland, not WA) has yet to be mentioned.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: ellendune on June 09, 2020, 08:02:17
Morfa Maddach in its former guise as Barmouth Junction was on GWR


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on June 09, 2020, 09:20:14
Manchester Piccadilly and Clapham Junction?


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: grahame on June 09, 2020, 09:26:49
Manchester Piccadilly and Clapham Junction?

Potentially, yes ... my original reading was of there being a platform where you could walk up to the junction end on the platform from one line and then back down the platform on the other line - a platform in the centre between the lines.   Reading back, that may have been over-intepretting.  And that brings to mind St Budeaux where it's near as darn it one station (certainly treated for such in that you cannot buy a ticket from one to the other) and the platforms are after the junction on the side of the old main line towards Exeter, and the branch that struck out ... wait - have I got that the wrong way round?


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Reginald25 on June 09, 2020, 10:00:05
In olden days, what about Cholsey and Bodmin?


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: stuving on June 09, 2020, 10:38:04
Somewhat further afield, but Perth (Scotland, not WA) has yet to be mentioned.

There's some more Scottish examples - Kilwinning is a classic: it even has the station building and access in the "V". Dalmuir is another, though a bit more cramped. And what about Motherwell, Graham?

Paisley Gilmour Street is one for its track layout, but not its geometry. And Keith, what's left of it, if you count the line to Dufftown.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: alexross42 on June 09, 2020, 10:42:20
Plymstock Station?

"A view of Plymstock station looking into the split between the two branches - the metals to the left going to Yealmpton and those to right heading onto an embankment and across the bridge the parapets of which can be be seen in the second picture of the Turnchapel branch 1961 Copyright Sid Sponheimer"

(http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/uploads/7/6/8/3/7683812/1931728_orig.jpg)

Image from the Cornwall Railway Society website - http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/turnchapel-branch.html# (http://www.cornwallrailwaysociety.org.uk/turnchapel-branch.html#)


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: PhilWakely on June 09, 2020, 10:48:26
Kemble of old?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemble_railway_station#/media/File:Kemble_station_platforms.jpg (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemble_railway_station#/media/File:Kemble_station_platforms.jpg)


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: rogerpatenall on June 09, 2020, 10:54:58
Have I missed inverness on reading through the above? - and going back, my memory of the layout at Durston is hazy,  but the platform leading onto the B&H via Lyng may have been angled.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: PhilWakely on June 09, 2020, 11:04:20
Pontarddulais on the Heart of Wales line....

(https://drive.google.com/uc?id=1gsLp0vQKIR6unO_35tvkHmiLe2L2q0vD)
my image from 1978


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: stuving on June 09, 2020, 11:23:03
Manchester Piccadilly and Clapham Junction?

Potentially, yes ... my original reading was of there being a platform where you could walk up to the junction end on the platform from one line and then back down the platform on the other line - a platform in the centre between the lines.   Reading back, that may have been over-intepretting.  And that brings to mind St Budeaux where it's near as darn it one station (certainly treated for such in that you cannot buy a ticket from one to the other) and the platforms are after the junction on the side of the old main line towards Exeter, and the branch that struck out ... wait - have I got that the wrong way round?

There are others that look like definite maybes - like Watford Junction (on a technicality), or Willesden Junction (but likely to be overturned by VAR). But the north-west does seem to have the most; have you though of Dinting? Kidsgrove and Cheadle Hulme? Liverpool South Parkway is another one that depends on how you look at it, as is Bolton, while Stetchford, Wilmslow, and Wrexham General are safer bets.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: rogerw on June 09, 2020, 12:33:14
Marks Tey. Also, if my memory serves me right, Seaton Junction


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: alexross42 on June 09, 2020, 16:49:31
Yelverton?

Sorry, I've re-read your original question properly now and see that you are asking about current day GWR(of course!), which neither of my suggestions fall into

Nothing to see here, carry on... ;D


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: Electric train on June 09, 2020, 17:07:09
Hither Green, I was there today and it fits

Brixton?



Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: REVUpminster on June 09, 2020, 17:23:53
What about Pitsea in Essex. You can get off a train coming up from Grays walk across to the platform to catch a train to Basildon.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: bradshaw on June 09, 2020, 19:02:11
Might I suggest Shipley, with three stations on all sides of the triangle


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: rower40 on June 10, 2020, 22:48:41
More off-piste examples...
Meadowhall
Derby since the remodelling, as platforms 5 & 6 can't access the Tamworth lines, and platforms 1 & 2 can't access the line to Trent Junction.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: grahame on June 11, 2020, 06:33:28
More off-piste examples...
Meadowhall
Derby since the remodelling, as platforms 5 & 6 can't access the Tamworth lines, and platforms 1 & 2 can't access the line to Trent Junction.


I suspect we're getting very much off-piste indeed, and I would contend that Derby is so far off piste that it's not  a "wedge station" with platforms out beyond the junction.   There are many stations where you can't exit from the station onto all lines leading out from that end - all the way from St Erth (platform only points to St Ives) to Inverness (platforms pointing only towards Dingwall, and platforms pointing only east and south)


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: stuving on June 11, 2020, 10:48:23
More off-piste examples...
Meadowhall
Derby since the remodelling, as platforms 5 & 6 can't access the Tamworth lines, and platforms 1 & 2 can't access the line to Trent Junction.


I suspect we're getting very much off-piste indeed, and I would contend that Derby is so far off piste that it's not  a "wedge station" with platforms out beyond the junction.   There are many stations where you can't exit from the station onto all lines leading out from that end - all the way from St Erth (platform only points to St Ives) to Inverness (platforms pointing only towards Dingwall, and platforms pointing only east and south)

I'd say some of those don't remotely qualify - notably Inverness, which doesn't have a junction splitting before a through station (with a platform having faces on both separating lines) - it only has a junction splitting after leaving a terminus, and that only one platform track.

Derby is like many (perhaps most) large stations with a junction next to them: some of the outer platforms can't connect to some routes at the junction - like Exeter? Meadowhall is disjoint - two stations linked by a footbridge or path - like Clapham Junction; would you count Willesden Junction?

I think Brixton (like Carnforth) has lost its rosette due to deplatforming. But there is one more big London example everyone knows - Stratford! OK, P11/12 are a sideshow compared to the other complicated stuff that goes on, and currently seem only to be used for terminating services, but at least 10A is back in use.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: ellendune on June 11, 2020, 21:08:38
Derby is like many (perhaps most) large stations with a junction next to them: some of the outer platforms can't connect to some routes at the junction - like Exeter?

Yes you could say the same about Reading or Swindon.


Title: Re: Are there any GWR Keilbahnhöfe?
Post by: CyclingSid on August 02, 2020, 08:25:06
Cycling the Downs Link yesterday was the first chance I have had to see the new connection to Christs Hospital. They have agreed access to use the old line from Cranleigh into the station. Been nicely surfaced (with EU money) and the old Cranleigh line platform has emerged from the undergrowth, been cleaned up and gained a Southern Railway style station name board.

Nice job. Not sure what the Southern trains are like under the current timetable, they were hourly before, so not the easiest of places to get to.



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