Great Western Coffee Shop

Journey by Journey => South Western services => Topic started by: grahame on June 27, 2020, 12:22:03 pm



Title: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: grahame on June 27, 2020, 12:22:03 pm
From Transport Xtra (https://www.transportxtra.com/publications/local-transport-today/news/65993/study-into-more-third-rail-electrification)

Quote
Ways of delivering infill rail electrification in areas with 750V DC third rail are to be explored in a study for the Rail Safety and Standards Board (RSSB).

Most of the rail network in southeast England is third rail, including the lines in Kent, East Sussex, West Sussex, Surrey, Hampshire and parts of Dorset. Weymouth is the western extremity of the DC network. The Merseyrail Electrics network also uses third rail.

A small number of non-electrified passenger lines exist in the South East: Ashford to Hastings; Oxted to Uckfield; and Wokingham-Ash and Guildford to Redhill on the North Downs Line. The RSSB’s brief for the new study also cites the West of England line, which runs from Basingstoke to Salisbury and Exeter.

Says the RSSB: “There are also several [passenger] reopening candidates where electrification would be valuable and potentially an essential enabling factor, including the Isle of Grain branch in Medway, the Fawley branch in Hampshire and Headbolt Lane/Skelmersdale in Merseyside.”

My bolding.  And I would also look at Salisbury to Southampton, via Nursling and via Chandler's Ford, as candidates.

"Fun" poll ... I don't suppose members (with a few exceptions) have any influence - but do you think it will happen, and if so, how?


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: IndustryInsider on June 27, 2020, 12:44:46 pm
Can't see it happening within 15 years to be honest.  A Salisbury extension of 3rd rail might.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Southernman on June 27, 2020, 01:08:58 pm
I could easily see the replacements for 158/159 units as being bi-modes (diesel and third rail) so there would be less diesel going into London. It would make sense for the third rail to reach Salisbury (although ORR not keen on such extensions) as there are divisions and attachments of units there so extra time in switching modes would be negligible. It would also help SWR when diverting away from Winchester if the Laverstock curve and line to Southampton was also third railed.

The Electric Spine (now not frequently talked about) had overheads from Basingstoke to Southampton but would have had a severe impact on compatibilty between 25kv and 750dc (probably only one system possible).

I really do wonder if its not beyond the wit of engineers to gradually change the contact point on third rail to either side or beneath which would do away with many of the safety concerns (and improve reliability in ice/snow). Yes, it might take 25 years or more to complete but when you have a large job to do you need to start? Although I understand 750dc is less efficient it is difficult to believe that overheads will replace third rail in the London area due to the enormous costs and disruption in raising bridges and other infrastructure changes. Think that goes into the bin marked 'too difficult' and the best should be made of the existing arrangements.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: bradshaw on June 27, 2020, 01:45:09 pm
There are two articles in the July edition if Modern Railways on electrification. The first by David Shirres looks at getting to net zero and the second by Ian Walmsley looks at 3rd rail extensions.

I think that it is more likely that Southampton to Salisbury and thence to Basingstoke and Reading will be 25kV, primarily for the freight movement.
From Salisbury to Exeter is a long shot for electrification. If Salisbury is done as 25kV then it would make sense to extend that to Exeter is the financial case stacked up. However, I think it unlikely. Considering that it will soon be necessary to replace the159s then a decision on the route needs to be made sooner rather than later. If Salisbury is done at 25kV then a trimode unit will be needed. What ever is to happen needs careful long term consideration as there are infrastructure implications relating to the location of additional passing  loops as these would be differ depending on the traction used, as was determined in the Wessex RUS released a few years back.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: eightf48544 on June 27, 2020, 03:54:42 pm
If within 15 years 25KV via Bristol. After that maybe via Westbury

In Modern Railways Salisbury Exeter is shown as unlikey. If it happens I think it won't be third rail but an extension of the Reading Basingstoke 25Kv (Southampton for freight)  .

If Southampton goes 25KV then fill in Southampton/Eastleigh to Salisbury/Westbury and Exeter.

Unfortuantely that leaves Westbury - Dorchester which is shown as unlikely in Modern Railways, but I think if we are serious about climate change then it should be 25Kv. Unless if goes hydrogen!``````````

It will need a lot of dual voltage units, but Thameslink/ Overground runs successfully with dual mode units.



Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: grahame on June 27, 2020, 04:02:56 pm
Following up from my original quote ...

Quote
The £200,000 study will identify ways to remove diesel services either by “enabling extensions to the existing electric network or appropriate alternatives”. The chosen contractor will explore options for reducing the safety risk of third rail systems.

Reminds me of the report of a meeting I heard about, talking about what appeared to be a modest improvement at a station "somewhere in rural England".   The councillors and Network Rail were discussing possibilities and Network Rail said a report would be needed - £5,000 please.  Councillors thought that was a bit steep - but, OK, specialists costs money and agreed.  "No - you don't understand - it's £5,000 to work out how much a report would cost".

That's a story from a very reliable source (and should that source read this post, thank you) but it's close enough to need to be anonymous.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: broadgage on June 27, 2020, 05:53:34 pm
Any significant extension of third rail is effectively prohibited by the health and safety industry. Whilst there are various ways in which conductor rails can be made less dangerous, I cant see any way of significantly reducing the risks AND remaining compatible with existing routes and existing rolling stock.

I am not aware of any specific law or regulation that says "no more conductor rail" but someone somewhere will have to "sign off" a proposed new installation as being as safe as is reasonably practical.
Whom is going to declare a new installation as being safe as reasonably practical, whilst knowingly rejecting a readily available and safer alternative. 
Remember that the person approving the installation could face prosecution, perhaps decades later when a trespasser is killed.

Eventually 25Kv trains will reach Exeter, either from Paddington, or by use of duel voltage stock from Waterloo. Doubt that it will be within 15 years though.
Better get a move on, before the health and safety ban 25Kv overhead.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: southwest on June 27, 2020, 06:10:36 pm
Nice idea but won't happen just more talk. BiModes might be a possibility but nothing more.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: bradshaw on June 27, 2020, 07:02:16 pm
Here is the ORR position on 3rd rail extension.
It places the onus of safety with the organisation promoting the extension. It specifically mentions the time taken for isolations but NR South East and presumably Wessex are installing modular isolation systems that make it both safer and quicker.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/17621/dc-electrification-policy-statement.pdf


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bob_Blakey on June 27, 2020, 07:05:18 pm
The much mentioned - by Network Rail anyway - rolling programme of 25kV electrification must proceed. The first fairly immediate step on the B&H should be wiring to Bedwyn, so the IET's can be replaced by 387's. Follow that with electrification in stages to Westbury (new electric service to include the projected Devizes Parkway station), Taunton & Exeter.

The electrification project teams have enough recent practice, particularly in terms of what not to do, on this route to complete the work in 5-7 years.

(At the same time perhaps the DfT & NR would care to remove their collective head from the orifice in which it currently resides and authorise full completion of the wiring on the routes to BRI.)


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: broadgage on June 27, 2020, 07:40:26 pm
Here is the ORR position on 3rd rail extension.
It places the onus of safety with the organisation promoting the extension. It specifically mentions the time taken for isolations but NR South East and presumably Wessex are installing modular isolation systems that make it both safer and quicker.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/17621/dc-electrification-policy-statement.pdf

"Modular isolation" does not alter the fact that a lethal voltage is exposed at ankle height. If a graffiti "artist" is electrocuted then the horrific task of collecting the charred remains is made a bit easier, but they are still just as dead, and their relatives could still sue.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on June 28, 2020, 06:35:01 am
Can't see it happening within 15 years to be honest.  A Salisbury extension of 3rd rail might.

I agree.

While there is some infill schemes being considered for 750V DC, there are only realistically being looked at in the heart of the existing DC network.

Surely getting the Swindon - Bristol TM route complete has to be the priority in the West


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: CyclingSid on June 28, 2020, 07:58:18 am
Surely before considering anything else about Salisbury to Exeter, it would need to be doubled throughout, whatever form of traction.

Are RSSB and ORR really at cross-purposes? ORR saying no and RSSB saying can we.? Or have I read it wrong (not unknown).

Would have thought more sensible to do the fill-in of the North Downs Line, or some similar "small" scheme within the South East commuter area (or taking current political dogma literally Merseyside is more likely).


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: bradshaw on June 28, 2020, 08:47:25 am
Ian Warmsley’s article in Modern Railways discusses the safety aspect. The ORR stated that 3rd rail eight times the equivalent fatalaties of OHLE at 25kV. A recent study shows the figures to be 0.47 Fatalities and Weighted Injuries Related to the 3rd rail vice 0.23, whereas the railway as a whole comes in at 59.6.

I would not put forward the idea of wholesale additions to the 3rd Rail network but infills such as Oxted and the North Downs line need to be considered. The other outpost, Ashford to Hastings, would be better done at 25kV so that it could be served from HS1 at Ashford.

I o nor think that the Salisbury to Exeter line will be doubled throughout due to the cost involved. There are a number of locations where the track has been slewed to avoid a weak part of the embankment and a couple of stations where significant construction will be needed, Crewkerne for example. I feel it would be better served by extensions of loops such as at Tisbury and at Templecombe, bringing the double track into the station. Towards Exeter the extension of the passing loops will be needed for the Devon Metro service and this might justify a greater amount of redoubling between Chard and Exeter.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on June 28, 2020, 10:59:22 am
Regardless of safety, third rail just seems to be an inferior way of electrification. I can't see it happening within 15 years but I can see projects being put forward in that time.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: PhilWakely on June 28, 2020, 11:43:02 am
Having lived in Pinhoe for all bar three years of my life, I have used every available opportunity to push for improvements on the Mule. I even used my S' Level Statistics and Degree in Statistics to produce projects on re-doubling the line or using better powered locomotives to improve timing! Call my a cynic if you will, but HS2 will be fully operational to Birmingham before we'll see any major improvements to the Mule. Yes, we may well see a Tisbury-style loop just east of Whimple to enable the Devon Metro to improve local services, but, unless something major causes significant, long-lasting disruption between Exeter and Castle Cary, I cannot see anything else being done to the Mule in the foreseeable future. It is likely that the Tories will promise something to their voters in 2023, but these will be quickly forgotten.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: rogerpatenall on June 28, 2020, 04:32:13 pm
Well. I have ticked the not in 15 years box. However, you can argue that electric trains are already running to Exeter. Perhaps the thread should have been headed 'Electric traction to Exeter'?


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: JontyMort on June 28, 2020, 08:59:30 pm
Well. I have ticked the not in 15 years box. However, you can argue that electric trains are already running to Exeter. Perhaps the thread should have been headed 'Electric traction to Exeter'?

But even that won’t work - the traction is electric in both modes.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: grahame on June 28, 2020, 09:12:34 pm
Looks like I have "goofed" on the description ... and thinking about it, my first visit to Exeter by train must have been some 50 years ago ... electric traction all the way from Brighton, with the train having its own diesel generators carriages 1, 6, 7 and 12 and borrowed for the Saturday Only service off the Hastings to Cannon Street Monday to Friday trains.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on June 29, 2020, 07:21:13 am
Here is the ORR position on 3rd rail extension.
It places the onus of safety with the organisation promoting the extension. It specifically mentions the time taken for isolations but NR South East and presumably Wessex are installing modular isolation systems that make it both safer and quicker.

https://orr.gov.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0017/17621/dc-electrification-policy-statement.pdf

NR Southern Region (formally Wessex Route and SE Route) are installing a system remotely controlled "Negative Shorting Circuiting Devices" (NSCD) these avoid the need for staff to go on to the track to test and the apply manual straps.  The NSCD are not currently operated by the ECRs but by a facility near the work sites.

The NSCD do make it safer for the isolation staff and does speed the process up.


I would not put forward the idea of wholesale additions to the 3rd Rail network but infills such as Oxted and the North Downs line need to be considered. The other outpost, Ashford to Hastings, would be better done at 25kV so that it could be served from HS1 at Ashford.

Ashford - Hastings electrification at 25kV has more or less been ruled out, due to some significant engineering challenges -

Currently there is no direct track connection from the Hasting line to HS1
The OLE wiring across Ashford from the SE side to NE side
The A/C - DC interface at Ore

Options being looked at are bi-mode battery / Third Rail, if the above could be funded / overcome then the 395 could operate the Hastings / London services


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: 4064ReadingAbbey on July 01, 2020, 02:50:31 pm
The much mentioned - by Network Rail anyway - rolling programme of 25kV electrification must proceed. The first fairly immediate step on the B&H should be wiring to Bedwyn, so the IET's can be replaced by 387's. Follow that with electrification in stages to Westbury (new electric service to include the projected Devizes Parkway station), Taunton & Exeter.

The electrification project teams have enough recent practice, particularly in terms of what not to do, on this route to complete the work in 5-7 years.

(At the same time perhaps the DfT & NR would care to remove their collective head from the orifice in which it currently resides and authorise full completion of the wiring on the routes to BRI.)
I would suggest that replacing IETs by Class 387s on the Bedwyns would affect line capacity between Paddington and Reading. The 387s have a 110mph top speed rather than the 125mph of practically every other train using the Mains between Paddington and Reading and this will affect pathing and line capacity. In the 2019 timetable trains are scheduled to leave Paddington and two minute headways, with the maximum being five minutes there being, IIRC, some 16 departures per hour. Introducing even slightly slower trains on this stretch, even if there is only one per hour, will affect punctuality.

I can't see it happening.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: eightf48544 on July 01, 2020, 03:04:02 pm
If Bedwyn/Westbury  is electrified then IETs could still be used on the services


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: southwest on July 01, 2020, 11:51:11 pm
The much mentioned - by Network Rail anyway - rolling programme of 25kV electrification must proceed. The first fairly immediate step on the B&H should be wiring to Bedwyn, so the IET's can be replaced by 387's. Follow that with electrification in stages to Westbury (new electric service to include the projected Devizes Parkway station), Taunton & Exeter.

The electrification project teams have enough recent practice, particularly in terms of what not to do, on this route to complete the work in 5-7 years.

(At the same time perhaps the DfT & NR would care to remove their collective head from the orifice in which it currently resides and authorise full completion of the wiring on the routes to BRI.)
I would suggest that replacing IETs by Class 387s on the Bedwyns would affect line capacity between Paddington and Reading. The 387s have a 110mph top speed rather than the 125mph of practically every other train using the Mains between Paddington and Reading and this will affect pathing and line capacity. In the 2019 timetable trains are scheduled to leave Paddington and two minute headways, with the maximum being five minutes there being, IIRC, some 16 departures per hour. Introducing even slightly slower trains on this stretch, even if there is only one per hour, will affect punctuality.

I can't see it happening.

Extend the Reading to Newbury stopper, then replace the Paddington - Bedwyn stopper with more Exeter/Taunton/Westbury trains.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on July 02, 2020, 07:06:07 am
The much mentioned - by Network Rail anyway - rolling programme of 25kV electrification must proceed. The first fairly immediate step on the B&H should be wiring to Bedwyn, so the IET's can be replaced by 387's. Follow that with electrification in stages to Westbury (new electric service to include the projected Devizes Parkway station), Taunton & Exeter.

The electrification project teams have enough recent practice, particularly in terms of what not to do, on this route to complete the work in 5-7 years.

(At the same time perhaps the DfT & NR would care to remove their collective head from the orifice in which it currently resides and authorise full completion of the wiring on the routes to BRI.)
I would suggest that replacing IETs by Class 387s on the Bedwyns would affect line capacity between Paddington and Reading. The 387s have a 110mph top speed rather than the 125mph of practically every other train using the Mains between Paddington and Reading and this will affect pathing and line capacity. In the 2019 timetable trains are scheduled to leave Paddington and two minute headways, with the maximum being five minutes there being, IIRC, some 16 departures per hour. Introducing even slightly slower trains on this stretch, even if there is only one per hour, will affect punctuality.

I can't see it happening.

Mixing 387 and 800 in a service pattern is all about flighting, putting a 387 on fast with a 800 on a Slough stopper flighted together lowers the impact.  Also the difference in acceleration and braking between the two is not big as it was between 165/6 and 253/4



Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: grahame on July 06, 2020, 08:46:29 am
Poll closed

25kv overhead from London   - 11 (24.4%)
25kv overhead Devon Metro (local network)   - 1 (2.2%)
Third Rail from Waterloo   - 2 (4.4%)
Some other way   - 0 (0%)
Won't happen within 15 years   - 31 (68.9%)

So - let me see. 

If you asked to place a bet (hypothetical - I am not licensed nor interested) on there being trains running in and out of an Exeter Station under electric power by July 2035, I could offer you odds:
7/1 for overhead catenary 25kv from London
40/1 for third rail electric from London
80/1 for their being local 25kv electric services only
200/1 for there being something else

Sadly, if you wanted to bet on there being no electric trains (although of course internal transmission could be by way of electricity from diesel, hydrogen, nuclear, battery, steam generator, or passenger pedal sources) I could only offer odds of 5/2 on - returning each £1 stake and paying you just 40p winnings.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on July 06, 2020, 06:22:00 pm
I wonder if this would be the answer - or at least the first answer likely to happen, though the timescale of any retrofit programme is not clear from this press release from Hitachi Rail (https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachi-rail-global/pressreleases/hitachi-rail-and-hyperdrive-agreement-opens-way-for-battery-trains-across-britain-3019165):
Quote
Press release - 06 July 2020 07:30
Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive Innovation have signed an exclusive agreement to develop battery packs to power zero-emission trains and create a battery hub in the North East.

The two North East manufacturers will now accelerate the creation of batteries that can be mass-produced to provide emission-free power for hundreds of battery trains across the UK.

With almost two-thirds (58%) of the UK’s 20,000 mile rail network not electrified and with the Government setting ambitious decarbonisation targets, Hitachi Rail analysis estimates the potential market for Hyperdrive and Hitachi’s battery technology is over 400 trains.

This agreement is an important step towards manufacturing batteries at Hyperdrive’s HYVE facility in Sunderland, and then installing them just 20 miles away at Hitachi Rail’s train-building factory in Newton Aycliffe, County Durham.

Hitachi has identified its fleets of 275 trains as potential early recipients of the batteries for use in the UK, as well as installing them on new metro and intercity trains that will be needed in the coming years to replace ageing diesel fleets.

Battery trains produce no greenhouse gases, air pollution and are a far quieter, offering passengers cleaner air in stations, less noise disruption and a carbon-free way to travel. Installing batteries on to existing fleets can also extend their range and allow passengers to reach stations on non-electrified branch lines without having to change train.

A widespread adoption of battery train technology could be a major boost for industry in the UK, creating a market for Hyperdrive to increase its manufacturing capability up to 30,000 battery packs per year and double the number of jobs at its Sunderland factory.

Development of the UK’s first independent battery pack manufacturing facility will drive costs down and for the first time offer domestic production of batteries for rail, automotive, construction and energy sectors.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 06, 2020, 06:47:54 pm
This has high potential!  ;)

Although they're going to need more than 50km range if they're going to be used on most of the network. Interesting though to see the competition between this, hydrogen, bi-mode, OHLE and possibly third-rail.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: GBM on July 07, 2020, 08:44:39 am
Does member Broadgage have shares in this!  ;D ;D ;D


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: johnneyw on July 07, 2020, 10:25:14 am
It sounds like Hitachi and Co have come to the conclusion that Vivarail came to a few years ago.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on July 07, 2020, 04:01:56 pm
It sounds like Hitachi and Co have come to the conclusion that Vivarail came to a few years ago.

The announcement was of just one commercial step in a long development process at Hitachi, looking at putting batteries in trains. Downpage it includes:
Quote
Hitachi has extensive battery train experience across the world. In 2016, Hitachi introduced one of the world’s first regional battery trains in Japan. The Dencha currently carries passengers on two routes in Japan, with a wire-free range of 50km.

In 2007, Hitachi Rail fitted a hybrid test train – known as a Class 43 HST – with batteries and ran over 100,000 km. The ‘Haybusa’ train produced no emissions out of stations and provided a 15% fuel saving.

And that experimental hybrid train in 2007 is described in this from Railway Gazette (https://www.railwaygazette.com/news/hybrid-high-speed-train-unveiled/34252.article) - you may recognise it as something else, though:
(https://d1c4d7gnm6as1q.cloudfront.net/Pictures/780xany/2/3/9/4239_tn_gb-hybrid-hst-hayabusa.jpg)

I guess the results of that didn't support the hybrid option for IEP (and hybrids have never offered much in trains anyway), but now batteries have moved on far enough make it worth planning their use as a primary power source, at least for shorter ranges..


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: broadgage on July 07, 2020, 04:44:18 pm
This has high potential!  ;)

Although they're going to need more than 50km range if they're going to be used on most of the network. Interesting though to see the competition between this, hydrogen, bi-mode, OHLE and possibly third-rail.

In my view, hydrogen is not a serious contender, it is inherently expensive, explosive, bulky to store, and challenging to handle at fuelling stations.

Neither in my view is any significant expansion of third rail a serious contender, for reasons already given.

That leaves bi-mode (25Kv and diesel)
Or 25Kv throughout
Or bi-mode (25Kv and battery)
As serious possibilities. A battery ONLY train seems unlikely due to lack of flexibility, and the need for large shore supplies for charging, rather than use of existing 25Kv infrastructure for charging.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: broadgage on July 07, 2020, 04:47:10 pm
Does member Broadgage have shares in this!  ;D ;D ;D

No, why would I want shares ?


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 07, 2020, 05:19:32 pm
This has high potential!  ;)

Although they're going to need more than 50km range if they're going to be used on most of the network. Interesting though to see the competition between this, hydrogen, bi-mode, OHLE and possibly third-rail.

In my view, hydrogen is not a serious contender, it is inherently expensive, explosive, bulky to store, and challenging to handle at fuelling stations.
So is all that petrol you keep for friends in your shed!

I also think hydrogen seems an unlikely contender but several manufacturers, such as Toyota, are pursuing fuel cells as a serious power source for rail, road and I think marine too. So I guess we'll have to wait and see; the question is how long do we wait?


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: rogerw on July 07, 2020, 05:49:54 pm
The trains on this line are due for replacement (hopefully) within the next 10 years. It would seem logical to electrify at 25kv west of Basingstoke with dual voltage stock. As Reading to Basingstoke is likely to be electrified the addition of Southampton to Salisbury would give an electric route for the many container trains heading north without the complication of any work on the direct line through Winchester


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: PhilWakely on July 07, 2020, 06:10:35 pm
The trains on this line are due for replacement (hopefully) within the next 10 years. It would seem logical to electrify at 25kv west of Basingstoke with dual voltage stock. As Reading to Basingstoke is likely to be electrified the addition of Southampton to Salisbury would give an electric route for the many container trains heading north without the complication of any work on the direct line through Winchester

If Redbridge to Basingstoke via Laverstock and Andover is to become the regular routeing for freight, would it not mean either a reversal at Redbridge or the addition of a western entrance to the freightliner terminal?


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: rogerw on July 07, 2020, 07:00:06 pm
As far as I'm aware there is already a western entrance to the freightliner terminal,unless it has recently been removed.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: PhilWakely on July 07, 2020, 07:47:26 pm
As far as I'm aware there is already a western entrance to the freightliner terminal,unless it has recently been removed.

Sorry, you are correct. For some reason I though it was eastbound only, but I've just looked on google maps and seen the layout quite clearly.  :-[  :-[


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on December 15, 2020, 03:09:22 pm
I wonder if this would be the answer - or at least the first answer likely to happen, though the timescale of any retrofit programme is not clear from this press release from Hitachi Rail (https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachi-rail-global/pressreleases/hitachi-rail-and-hyperdrive-agreement-opens-way-for-battery-trains-across-britain-3019165):
Quote
Press release - 06 July 2020 07:30
Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive Innovation have signed an exclusive agreement to develop battery packs to power zero-emission trains and create a battery hub in the North East.
...

Following on from that announcement earlier this year, Hitachi are now going to put some batteries into some of GWR's 802s. This was behind this morning's news items (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=24371.msg298545#msg298545), based on this press release from Hitachi (https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachi-rail-global/pressreleases/hitachi-and-eversholt-rail-to-develop-gwr-intercity-battery-hybrid-train-offering-fuel-savings-of-more-than-20-percent-3059268):
Quote
Hitachi and Eversholt Rail to develop GWR intercity battery hybrid train ? offering fuel savings of more than 20%
 
  •   Batteries replacing an engine to cut fuel usage and reduce carbon emissions
  •   First time a modern UK intercity train, in passenger service, will use alternative fuel
  •   Tri-mode train can improve air quality and reduce noise across South West route?s non-electrified stations

In a UK-first, Hitachi Rail and Eversholt Rail have signed an exclusive agreement aimed at bringing battery power ? and fuel savings of more than 20% ? to the modern Great Western Railway Intercity Express Trains that carry passengers between Penzance and London.

The 36 longer, faster trains ? with their iconic sleek design ? have already transformed journeys for passengers in south west England, since their introduction by GWR in August 2018. Now the partnership between Hitachi, the train builder and maintainer, and Eversholt Rail, the trains? owner, will develop a plan to install batteries on a modern Intercity Express Train. The trial will demonstrate that the innovation meets passenger service and safety standards.

The line between the South West and London is only partially electrified, with the majority of the 300 mile journey requiring diesel power. The partnership is looking at batteries replacing a diesel engine as a power source on an existing Hitachi-built five-carriage train ? currently known as a bi-mode for its ability to switch seamlessly between electric and diesel power.

Adding a battery creates an electric-diesel-battery hybrid train (tri-mode). On non-electrified sections of the route, the batteries will supplement the power of the engines to reduce fuel usage and carbon emissions by more than 20%. Whereas when travelling in and out of stations and surrounding urban areas, the train would rely on battery power only. This has the benefit of improving air quality and dramatically reduce noise levels, creating a more pleasant environment for passengers and people living nearby.

GWR?s Intercity Express Train fleet currently calls at 15 non-electrified stations on its journey between Penzance and London, all of which could benefit from trains running on battery-only power.

Hitachi Rail will draw upon market-leading expertise in Japan, and the support of its battery partner ? Hyperdrive Innovation. The two North East-based companies reached an agreement in July 2020 to create and develop battery packs for mass production at Hyperdrive?s HYVE facility in Sunderland, the UK?s first independent battery pack manufacturing facility.

The projected improvements in battery technology ? particularly in power output and charge ? create opportunities to replace incrementally more diesel engines on long distance trains. With the ambition to create a fully electric-battery intercity train ? that can travel the full journey between London and Penzance ? by the late 2040s, in line with the UK?s 2050 net zero emissions target.

Installing battery technology on trains can complement electrification and helps to improve the business case for upgrades that can level-up the South West and provide a low emission alternative to domestic air travel.

That reads as if they plan to do a trial, though perhaps even that depends on a bit of prior work on the batteries.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: broadgage on December 15, 2020, 03:18:54 pm
I remain a bit doubtful about battery power for London to Penzance or similar length journeys.
I see a bright future for battery trains on secondary or lightly used routes, and on main lines that are substantially electrified but not perhaps throughout.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on December 15, 2020, 03:24:57 pm
I remain a bit doubtful about battery power for London to Penzance or similar length journeys.
I see a bright future for battery trains on secondary or lightly used routes, and on main lines that are substantially electrified but not perhaps throughout.

I'd be more than a bit doubtful about that. Fortunately it's not part of what Hitachi are proposing.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: broadgage on December 15, 2020, 05:19:27 pm
Yes, I know that the initial proposal is to fit a battery instead of one of the engines on an IET. It has however been suggested that this an initial test with a view to eventually achieving a fully battery powered inter city train.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Jamsdad on December 15, 2020, 05:24:36 pm
There are more than 15 non-electrified stations  that IET call at between Paddington and Penzance. 10 in Cornwall, 9 in Devon, 2 in Somerset , 2 in Wilts , possibly more if you are pedantic. Where does the 15 come from?


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on December 15, 2020, 05:30:02 pm
Yes, I know that the initial proposal is to fit a battery instead of one of the engines on an IET. It has however been suggested that this an initial test with a view to eventually achieving a fully battery powered inter city train.

I don't read it that way, though it's rather ambiguous. It says "fully electric-battery intercity train", and that could be fully electric with a battery as well rather than a diesel. And the wires might have to go a bit further - looking at the distances involved, the stored energy requirement is a tad on the humungous side for going all the way.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2020, 05:56:50 pm
Where does the 15 come from?

The standard calling pattern of through trains.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: PhilWakely on December 15, 2020, 06:51:29 pm
Using only battery power, without diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR or SWR route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on December 15, 2020, 07:31:54 pm
It's perhaps worth noting what NR's traction decarbonisation plans are for routes to and beyond Exeter, bearing in mind that came out just after the poll and comments about the thread's original question stopped.

The route rating has all GWR and SWR main lines marked for electrification (all at 25kV where new), with the GWR routes (and Basingstoke-Salisbury) labelled "core". From Salisbury, and past Exeter, is says "ancillary" which is explained rather than defined. Basically it means the benefit is lower, so it can't be justified until later on in the programme, and it will have to keep an interim solution until then. By then the relative merits of the alternatives may have changed, so it's better not to pick a final solution. I Imagine such mixed solutions as OLE only up the banks would come into play during that interim.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: IndustryInsider on December 15, 2020, 07:43:17 pm
Using only battery power, with diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR or SWR route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 

A good place to do a trial.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on December 15, 2020, 07:50:09 pm
Using only battery power, without diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR or SWR route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 

The battery capacity between charging points will always be an issue, regen braking going down the banks of course can put some energy back into the battery


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 15, 2020, 08:23:13 pm
The way I read it, 'fully battery-electric' means 'two modes of electricity': overhead and battery. Rather than purely battery. Though it might lead to developments which will see purely battery power being used on shorter, lower speed lines, some time in the future.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: ellendune on December 15, 2020, 09:29:13 pm
Using only battery power, without diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR or SWR route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 

But that is not what they are proposing.  Only battery power in urban areas.  Diesel elsewhere, though the batteries could help out on the banks.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on December 16, 2020, 08:01:45 am
Using only battery power, without diesel, over the Devon banks could be an interesting challenge - whether talking about either the GWR or SWR route. With stops at Totnes on the GWR route and Axminster on the SWR route, both 'in between' severe banks, the batteries would need to be powerful. 

But that is not what they are proposing.  Only battery power in urban areas.  Diesel elsewhere, though the batteries could help out on the banks.

I think the solution should be a "pump storage" system, that is the batteries are present all the time to provide the traction and domestic power.   

When running in an electrified area the batteries are charged and the traction and domestic power is proved by the electrification; regen braking supplementing this.

When running in non electrified areas the traction and domestic power is provided by the batteries, a prime mover (diesel, hydrogen etc) is run up to charge the batteries when required.

Possibly localised areas of electrification installed to provide additional power or battery charging, somewhere like Temple Meads for example where a train may lay over between trips


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 16, 2020, 09:44:37 am
How much OLE is there between Penzance and London? IIRC it's only once they join the GWML at Reading?

In any case, if this trial is successful, hopefully it could be used for Bristol-Thingley and the 'ugly wires in Bath' could be saved for another day.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: ray951 on December 16, 2020, 09:56:02 am
How much OLE is there between Penzance and London? IIRC it's only once they join the GWML at Reading?

The wires extend to Newbury.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 16, 2020, 10:21:59 am
How much OLE is there between Penzance and London? IIRC it's only once they join the GWML at Reading?

The wires extend to Newbury.
Of course! Thanks.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: ellendune on December 16, 2020, 02:29:19 pm
In any case, if this trial is successful, hopefully it could be used for Bristol-Thingley and the 'ugly wires in Bath' could be saved for another day.

Not sure it would go all that way, the gap would have to be reduced a bit I think.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on December 16, 2020, 03:18:07 pm
In any case, if this trial is successful, hopefully it could be used for Bristol-Thingley and the 'ugly wires in Bath' could be saved for another day.

Not sure it would go all that way, the gap would have to be reduced a bit I think.

What "it"? The initial plan announced is for one battery fitted to one 802/0. NR's "first base" core network for decarbonisation is OLE to Exeter, and something beyond, and presumably we will reach something of that kind. The path from the trial to there could follow several routes, both in train systems and infrastructure.



Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 16, 2020, 03:54:01 pm
By 'successful' I was thinking as much of future development in battery technology as what's here today. But even this trial set up, if it can't go 30-odd miles it won't be much good between Newbury and Penzance!


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: TonyK on December 16, 2020, 07:38:00 pm
Fully battery powered trains are envisaged by Hitachi and GWR, according to a report on the BBC website. (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-55319335)

Quote
Plan for UK long-distance battery-powered trains

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpsprodpb/184F5/production/_110937599_mediaitem100809186.jpg)
(C) PA - Hitachi Rail has launched a plan to operate trains on batteries, electricity and diesel

Long distance trains could run on battery power for the first time in the UK, a manufacturer has announced.

Hitachi Rail said Great Western Railway services between London Paddington and Penzance, Cornwall, could be powered by a combination of batteries, electricity and diesel.

Using battery power at the route's non-electrified stations will reduce fuel consumption by more than 20%, improve air quality and reduce noise levels.

Testing is expected to begin in 2022.

The line from Cornwall to London is only partially electrified, with the majority of the 300 mile route requiring diesel power.

The 36 intercity express trains used on the line are bi-modes, which switch between electric and diesel power.

The firm said it would be the first time a long-distance passenger service used an alternative power source in the UK.

It is hoped a full-battery powered intercity train could be developed by the late 2040s, Hitachi Rail added.
(Continues at source)

So. Only another 30 years or so, and no mention of a buffet car.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on December 16, 2020, 09:09:04 pm
In any case, if this trial is successful, hopefully it could be used for Bristol-Thingley and the 'ugly wires in Bath' could be saved for another day.

Not sure it would go all that way, the gap would have to be reduced a bit I think.

What "it"? The initial plan announced is for one battery fitted to one 802/0. NR's "first base" core network for decarbonisation is OLE to Exeter, and something beyond, and presumably we will reach something of that kind. The path from the trial to there could follow several routes, both in train systems and infrastructure.



Electrification may become a simpler to install NR has changed its electrification design policy.  Some of the clearances, need to be able to maintain the OLE with adjacent line live and a number of other specifics required previously have been relaxed from being mandated everywhere to a Region / Route risk and performance based assessment for locations where it is not practical / beneficial to do.

A bit complex and techie to explain in a post here, sufficed to say lessons have been learned from the engineering of GWEP


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: ellendune on December 16, 2020, 10:39:21 pm
A bit complex and techie to explain in a post here, sufficed to say lessons have been learned from the engineering of GWEP

Lets hope the teams get the chance to stay together to use that learning rather than have a gap then have to learn it all over again. 


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on December 17, 2020, 07:10:44 am
A bit complex and techie to explain in a post here, sufficed to say lessons have been learned from the engineering of GWEP

Lets hope the teams get the chance to stay together to use that learning rather than have a gap then have to learn it all over again. 

That is certainly part of the message Andrew Haines is sending to the DfT, the forming a new electrification construction team from scratch after a few years break will add costs and delays as it did with GWEP


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: TonyK on December 17, 2020, 09:31:02 am

That is certainly part of the message Andrew Haines is sending to the DfT, the forming a new electrification construction team from scratch after a few years break will add costs and delays as it did with GWEP

It would make perfect sense to keep a permanent team, or teams, with all the kit in full working order, to do a rolling national programme of electrification. Suddenly. most of the cost becomes part of the routine budget, and slowly but surely, we have an electric railway.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 17, 2020, 10:33:29 am
I wonder if this would be the answer - or at least the first answer likely to happen, though the timescale of any retrofit programme is not clear from this press release from Hitachi Rail (https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachi-rail-global/pressreleases/hitachi-rail-and-hyperdrive-agreement-opens-way-for-battery-trains-across-britain-3019165):
Quote
Press release - 06 July 2020 07:30
Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive agreement opens way for battery trains across Britain

Hitachi Rail and Hyperdrive Innovation have signed an exclusive agreement to develop battery packs to power zero-emission trains and create a battery hub in the North East.
...

Following on from that announcement earlier this year, Hitachi are now going to put some batteries into some of GWR's 802s. This was behind this morning's news items (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/coffeeshop/index.php?topic=24371.msg298545#msg298545), based on this press release from Hitachi (https://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/hitachi-rail-global/pressreleases/hitachi-and-eversholt-rail-to-develop-gwr-intercity-battery-hybrid-train-offering-fuel-savings-of-more-than-20-percent-3059268):
Quote
Hitachi and Eversholt Rail to develop GWR intercity battery hybrid train ? offering fuel savings of more than 20%
 
  •   Batteries replacing an engine to cut fuel usage and reduce carbon emissions
  •   First time a modern UK intercity train, in passenger service, will use alternative fuel
  •   Tri-mode train can improve air quality and reduce noise across South West route?s non-electrified stations

In a UK-first, Hitachi Rail and Eversholt Rail have signed an exclusive agreement aimed at bringing battery power ? and fuel savings of more than 20% ? to the modern Great Western Railway Intercity Express Trains that carry passengers between Penzance and London.

The 36 longer, faster trains ? with their iconic sleek design ? have already transformed journeys for passengers in south west England, since their introduction by GWR in August 2018. Now the partnership between Hitachi, the train builder and maintainer, and Eversholt Rail, the trains? owner, will develop a plan to install batteries on a modern Intercity Express Train. The trial will demonstrate that the innovation meets passenger service and safety standards.

The line between the South West and London is only partially electrified, with the majority of the 300 mile journey requiring diesel power. The partnership is looking at batteries replacing a diesel engine as a power source on an existing Hitachi-built five-carriage train ? currently known as a bi-mode for its ability to switch seamlessly between electric and diesel power.

Adding a battery creates an electric-diesel-battery hybrid train (tri-mode). On non-electrified sections of the route, the batteries will supplement the power of the engines to reduce fuel usage and carbon emissions by more than 20%. Whereas when travelling in and out of stations and surrounding urban areas, the train would rely on battery power only. This has the benefit of improving air quality and dramatically reduce noise levels, creating a more pleasant environment for passengers and people living nearby.

GWR?s Intercity Express Train fleet currently calls at 15 non-electrified stations on its journey between Penzance and London, all of which could benefit from trains running on battery-only power.

Hitachi Rail will draw upon market-leading expertise in Japan, and the support of its battery partner ? Hyperdrive Innovation. The two North East-based companies reached an agreement in July 2020 to create and develop battery packs for mass production at Hyperdrive?s HYVE facility in Sunderland, the UK?s first independent battery pack manufacturing facility.

The projected improvements in battery technology ? particularly in power output and charge ? create opportunities to replace incrementally more diesel engines on long distance trains. With the ambition to create a fully electric-battery intercity train ? that can travel the full journey between London and Penzance ? by the late 2040s, in line with the UK?s 2050 net zero emissions target.

Installing battery technology on trains can complement electrification and helps to improve the business case for upgrades that can level-up the South West and provide a low emission alternative to domestic air travel.

That reads as if they plan to do a trial, though perhaps even that depends on a bit of prior work on the batteries.
Just wondering on the technical details. They plan to replace one of the under-floor diesel engines with batteries. I presume that each diesel engine only powers the motors in that carriage. But obviously when the train is running on OLE, all motors are powered from the same transformer. So is power in fact shared between driven carriages when running in diesel, and therefore presumably also diesel-battery, mode too?


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on December 17, 2020, 10:52:06 am
Just wondering on the technical details. They plan to replace one of the under-floor diesel engines with batteries. I presume that each diesel engine only powers the motors in that carriage. But obviously when the train is running on OLE, all motors are powered from the same transformer. So is power in fact shared between driven carriages when running in diesel, and therefore presumably also diesel-battery, mode too?

I have been wondering that too. I've not found a clear statement on the matter, though.

I have read of a "3 kV DC bus", taking power from the transformers via AC/DC converters. However, looking at the cables between vehicles, that's not a bus in the normal sense. It must be implemented as relatively low-power links (ca. 600 W), each from one of the two (5-car) or three (9-car) transformers to a motor drive unit.

When running on diesel power, each engine feeds its own motor drive units. If any engines are not running, that will reduce the adhesion significantly, so a way of feeding some power between motor vehicles would make sense. With a true busbar, that would be the obvious thing to do, but with separate links I think you'd have to reconfigure them by switching. I think it's possible, but you'd need to be told - no way to work it out by looking.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: broadgage on December 17, 2020, 11:33:02 pm

That is certainly part of the message Andrew Haines is sending to the DfT, the forming a new electrification construction team from scratch after a few years break will add costs and delays as it did with GWEP

It would make perfect sense to keep a permanent team, or teams, with all the kit in full working order, to do a rolling national programme of electrification. Suddenly. most of the cost becomes part of the routine budget, and slowly but surely, we have an electric railway.

Agree, a steady rolling programe of electrification is IMHO the way forward. Hopefully the work would become quicker, cheaper, or better in other ways.
Priority should be given to the most heavily used routes, and to shorter lines that connect therewith.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on December 18, 2020, 07:25:09 am
Just wondering on the technical details. They plan to replace one of the under-floor diesel engines with batteries. I presume that each diesel engine only powers the motors in that carriage. But obviously when the train is running on OLE, all motors are powered from the same transformer. So is power in fact shared between driven carriages when running in diesel, and therefore presumably also diesel-battery, mode too?

I have been wondering that too. I've not found a clear statement on the matter, though.

I have read of a "3 kV DC bus", taking power from the transformers via AC/DC converters. However, looking at the cables between vehicles, that's not a bus in the normal sense. It must be implemented as relatively low-power links (ca. 600 W), each from one of the two (5-car) or three (9-car) transformers to a motor drive unit.

When running on diesel power, each engine feeds its own motor drive units. If any engines are not running, that will reduce the adhesion significantly, so a way of feeding some power between motor vehicles would make sense. With a true busbar, that would be the obvious thing to do, but with separate links I think you'd have to reconfigure them by switching. I think it's possible, but you'd need to be told - no way to work it out by looking.

Electrical power "bus" on rolling stock is quite common.  For example Class 800 have 25kV bus along the entire unit, Class 700 have two 400V 3 phase bus one for each half of the train with a bus coupler to join the 2 if required.

A common 3kV dc bus is possible, its likely to be a common feature on some European trains, the prime mover (diesel or hydrogen) would generate at a standard 3 ph 400V feeding into the power bus via switch mode power supply and onto the power bus; traction power, battery charging and domestic power can be tapped off of the power bus via inverters


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: stuving on December 18, 2020, 10:39:14 am
Electrical power "bus" on rolling stock is quite common.  For example Class 800 have 25kV bus along the entire unit, Class 700 have two 400V 3 phase bus one for each half of the train with a bus coupler to join the 2 if required.

A common 3kV dc bus is possible, its likely to be a common feature on some European trains, the prime mover (diesel or hydrogen) would generate at a standard 3 ph 400V feeding into the power bus via switch mode power supply and onto the power bus; traction power, battery charging and domestic power can be tapped off of the power bus via inverters

What I have found out about 800/802s, from Hitachi or other reliable sources, is:
  • There is a fixed link - bus of you prefer - at 25 kV from the two pantographs (only one of which will be up) to the two or three transformers. Presumbaly there's VCB for each transformer.
  • The alternators are rated at 700 kW/1900 rpm/1950 V/214 A.
  • The big cables (single conductors) between body ends are marked 1800/3000V-150mm2. And there are lots of them at the ends of the unit, fewer as you go inwards. 
  • I can't see the cables would be paralleled, especially given the number of joints in them. Hence the idea that they feed point-point between modules on vehicles. Power could be fed at either 1800V AC or 3000 V DC, given the information above.
  • One Hitachi diagram I'm not convinced by - it may be a non-technical illustration, since done for a semi-technical article in Hitachi Review. It shows each motor vehicle with an auxiliary power (240 kVA)/battery charger unit feeding a 400V 3-phase bus, and a combined drive for four motors (226 kW continuous each), which sounds OK. It also shows the alternator feeding the same converter as the 25 kV transformer, which implies that the feed between vehicles is at ca. 2 kV AC.
  • The fix (or half of it) for the EMI problem on the ECML (not the axle counter one) was to add inductance. Roger Ford describes this as "between the transformer and the traction converter under each Driving Pantograph Transformer cars". That implies there is a converter on each DPT (which in turn implies one on the TPS too), but then again it could refer to the converters being on the MEx vehicles.
  • So there's still a question about the power flow topology that's "not proven".
  • None of this relates to 801s, on which one GU has to move the whole train. Whatever its power, it has to feed all motors to get full adhesion, so links have to exist to support that.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: IndustryInsider on May 24, 2021, 01:24:37 pm
I was reading an article about the development of aluminium-ion batteries (which I'd never heard of previously).  It appears they have many advantages over lithium-ion ones.

This was the article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?sh=2bf34746d287

Do our experts on batteries here on the forum think that they have the potential to become game changers in terms of trains, as the author of the article suggests they will be for cars?


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: ellendune on May 24, 2021, 02:21:55 pm
I was reading an article about the development of aluminium-ion batteries (which I'd never heard of previously).  It appears they have many advantages over lithium-ion ones.

This was the article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?sh=2bf34746d287

Do our experts on batteries here on the forum think that they have the potential to become game changers in terms of trains, as the author of the article suggests they will be for cars?

It certainly looks a game changer on several counts:

  • it does not use 'exotic metals' such as lithium (bad news for Cornwall?) as it uses commonly occurring materials (aluminium, carbon and urea)
  • it reduces the weight of the battery considerably
  • it can be charged in much less time

However, the article does not have any information on the efficiency. 


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: broadgage on May 24, 2021, 04:42:09 pm
I am a bit doubtful for two reasons.

Firstly, lithium is more reactive than aluminium and therefore seems likely to have a higher energy density.

Secondly, the claimed much faster charging seems most unlikely in practice due to power availability limits. The larger electric cars have batteries of about 40 Kwh.
These can be slow charged in a day or so from a domestic 13 amp socket, or fast charged from a domestic 32 amp circuit overnight, or very fast charged in much less than hour at some charge points.
Fast charging can use as much as 350 Kw. Faster than that seems unlikely in most cases due to the cost of providing the power.

Moving on to trains, a battery capacity of 1 Mwh has been suggested as a "ball park" figure for a basic battery train. That can be fast charged from existing OHLE in an hour or so, or charged overnight from a 3 phase 415 volt supply.
Charging ten times faster implies a power input of 10 Mw which is beyond the capacity of most existing or likely future OHLE.

And remember that a larger or higher specification battery train might have a battery of SEVERAL Mwh capacity, and that one might need to charge several at the same time.

Battery trains are in my view not optimum for fast or long distance use. More suitable for the Minehead branch and other similar locations, or for short sections of main lines that are problematic to electrify such as Dawlish.


Title: Re: Electric trains to Exeter? How do you see it happening?
Post by: Electric train on May 25, 2021, 06:56:00 am
I was reading an article about the development of aluminium-ion batteries (which I'd never heard of previously).  It appears they have many advantages over lithium-ion ones.

This was the article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/michaeltaylor/2021/05/13/ev-range-breakthrough-as-new-aluminum-ion-battery-charges-60-times-faster-than-lithium-ion/?sh=2bf34746d287

Do our experts on batteries here on the forum think that they have the potential to become game changers in terms of trains, as the author of the article suggests they will be for cars?

The feasibility work on the proposal to use battery powered trains is the high charge current, an example Ashford - Hastings the charge current at Ashford exceeds the normal traction current and for a longer duration than a pure DC traction rolling stock.   The duty cycle for traction supplies allow for short duration peak loads with rest time between, battery charging has a high current for a prolonged time especially at a turn around station.

Work is on going to how best to adopt battery powered trains



This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net