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All across the Great Western territory => Active travel: Cyclists and walkers, including how the railways deal with them => Topic started by: grahame on July 02, 2020, 03:46:11 pm



Title: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on July 02, 2020, 03:46:11 pm
From Passenger Transport (http://www.passengertransport.co.uk/2020/07/rental-e-scooter-trials-to-be-allowed/) but widely covered elsewhere

Quote
New regulations allowing trials of rental e-scooters will come into force this weekend, transport minister Rachel Maclean has announced.

The first trials are expected to begin next week. Local authorities and devolved administrations hosting the trials can allow or run the rental schemes in their areas, as outlined in accompanying guidance for areas and rental operators published this week.

The trials are designed to help understand whether the devices reduce motor traffic, as well as their impacts on safety for their users and others. Local residents will soon be able to use e-scooters on roads, cycle lanes and tracks, but they will be strictly prohibited on pavements. E-scooters will be limited to 15.5mph and riders are recommended to wear helmets.

Users will need a full or provisional car, motorcycle or moped licence to take part in the trials, and must be 16 or over. To avoid a flood of poor-quality scooters onto the streets, the regulations only cover rental schemes. Individually owned scooters will still be illegal on public roads.

What do members think?

Would YOU try one? Use one regularly?

What do you make of the "rentals only" and other rules?

Should we have them under "Buses and other ways to travel" or "Active Travel"?

Where would the best rental site trials in our area be?



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: rogerw on July 02, 2020, 04:41:27 pm
I have mixed feelings about this. If, a very big IF, they are confined to the carriageway, with penalty points for using on the footway, are covered by at least third party insurance and fitted with adequate warning devices I think it might work. But who is going to enforce all this?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: bobm on July 02, 2020, 07:45:45 pm
I already see a fair few flying up and down the path beneath my office window.

Big question for me is how is anyone supposed to identify a (legal) rented one against an (illegal) private one?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 02, 2020, 08:28:12 pm
At face value, it seems like a missed opportunity. As bobm says, e-scooters, electric skateboards, electric monowheels and probably other things have been on the roads for a couple of years now, so to exclude those latter categories and restrict e-scooters to those hired, does nothing to regulate the vehicles already in use. The requirement for a driving licence is also perverse, prohibiting their use by those who would most benefit. However, if this is in fact to be a trial and will be followed by more comprehensive legislation, covering all sorts of "low-speed electric personal miniature vehicles" (my clumsy phrase in the absence of an official term), then it could work out okay.

The details of weight and power are odd though: 500W and 55kg. Compare that to an EAPC (electrically assisted pedal cycle or e-bike), 250W and (I think) 25kg. I can only presume the weight limit is so high to allow more batteries and therefore less frequent charging for the hire companies and the power limit perhaps to make them more appealing. It could lead to some interesting moments though on what's basically a motorised plank with tiny wheels, usually no pneumatic tyres and necessarily limited braking.  The speed restriction remains the same, 25km/h (15.5mph).

If it gets a few people out of cars, it's good.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: PhilWakely on July 02, 2020, 08:51:59 pm
As with all vehicles - motorised or otherwise - acceptability depends on the awareness of the rider/driver. Used properly by an experienced rider, fully aware of the rules and regulations, I think they can be a good thing.

However, in the hands of the wrong person, they can be lethal. I have already witnessed two very close shaves...... one where an older teenager, riding on the pavement, failed to see a car coming out of a side turning and only narrowly avoided a collision; and a second, where an 'older city-gent-type' chap, riding on the road, went straight through a red light and only just avoided colliding with a car crossing their path.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on July 02, 2020, 09:13:44 pm
Big question for me is how is anyone supposed to identify a (legal) rented one against an (illegal) private one?

The legal ones have rental company livery and logo smartly applied.   If you look at the paintwork on the illegal ones, you'll find the lines are a bit wavy, the colours a bit out, and there's something wrong with the logo.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on July 02, 2020, 10:41:24 pm
E-scooters should in my view be encouraged in view of the reduced pollution and congestion compared to cars.

I would subject them to the same limitations on speed, weight, and power output as are applied to electrically assisted cycles. And in general subject to the same rules.
The adoption of electric cycles has NOT led to widespread loss of life or other mayhem, and E-scooters could therefore be treated similarly.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on July 03, 2020, 05:38:30 am
E-scooters should in my view be encouraged in view of the reduced pollution and congestion compared to cars.

I would subject them to the same limitations on speed, weight, and power output as are applied to electrically assisted cycles. And in general subject to the same rules.
The adoption of electric cycles has NOT led to widespread loss of life or other mayhem, and E-scooters could therefore be treated similarly.

I have "like"d that ... and indeed I am repeating it to confirm that like.

It makes sense to have low powered / speed electric assistance for the "final mile" and much of the objection relates to the infrastructure, safety and regulation issues - all important but all which should be overcome in something that is inherently a way forward.

We already have mobility chairs, and electric cycles.  Logical to go forward with electric scooters, segways, etc - power assisted local vehicles that can displace larger (and still often fossil fuelled) vehicles on short local runs for single people - runs to the the shops for individual item purchases / small shops, runs to services and social trips, and runs to public transport hubs.

I too have misgivings - seeing mobility chairs making their way up Spa Road way in excess of 4 m.p.h., many good drivers but also the aggressive and less safety aware pensioner drivers who act as is they own the pavement.  We have reports from time to time of cyclists who act as if they own infrastructure too, and at times we seem to be trying to fit a quart into a pint pot.

I asked earlier "where should the early hire places be?".  I am away of a shop (it's physically a shop premises) just a few yards up the road from WEYMOUTH station towards the sea front that hires out mobility chairs by the day - enabling people arriving on day trips to get around the sea front, the town, and perhaps down to the harbour and even a little beyond.   Perhaps a different market, though a pointer?   The seafront at Weymouth hosts a wider variety of travel modes on the road and wide esplanade ... heck, there's even a land train.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: CyclingSid on July 03, 2020, 06:53:28 am
Quote
The seafront at Weymouth hosts a wider variety of travel modes on the road and wide esplanade
But in the case of Weymouth, fairly large areas of prohibition of bicycles. So will bikes be prohibited but e-scooters acceptable?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 03, 2020, 06:55:37 am
As long as they stay off the pavement and observe the same rules of the road that all others are expected to I can't see an objection, although no doubt a few careless souls will keep the hospitals and undertakers busy via natural selection.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on July 03, 2020, 08:34:37 am
From https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-53272688

Quote
The first trial of an e-scooter rental scheme in the UK will be held in the North East, a mayor has announced.

One hundred scooters will be available for rent in Teesside, Darlington and Hartlepool later in July, Tees Valley mayor Ben Houchen said.

The pilot will start after the government agreed to legalise rental e-scooters on roads.

They will also be allowed on cycle lanes, for riders over 16 who have at least a provisional driving licence.

The scooters will be provided by Ginger, and riders will have to leave the battery-powered vehicle in certain locations for charging.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Surrey 455 on July 03, 2020, 08:38:47 am
In Central London, the TfL bikes are a common sight. Also now increasingly common to see are the dockless hire bikes from other companies scattered inconsiderately along the pavement. I presume e-scooters will need to be docked so they can be charged otherwise they would join this clutter.

My other concern is potholes. Won't the scooters smaller wheels make the riders more vulnerable to accidents than other road users?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bob_Blakey on July 03, 2020, 08:57:06 am
I will be sticking with my pedal cycle; I am unconvinced that allowing eScooters to use cycle paths/lanes - given the potential speed differential - is a good idea. Also does the ban on eScooters using pavements extend to footways which have been changed into shared pedestrian/cycle facilities?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: eightf48544 on July 03, 2020, 09:24:21 am

 Local residents will soon be able to use e-scooters on roads, cycle lanes and tracks, but they will be strictly prohibited on pavements. E-scooters will be limited to 15.5mph and riders are recommended to wear helmets.

Users will need a full or provisional car, motorcycle or moped licence to take part in the trials, and must be 16 or over. To avoid a flood of poor-quality scooters onto the streets, the regulations only cover rental schemes. Individually owned scooters will still be illegal on public roads.


I think 15.5 mph is too fast. But the most important thing to me is how are these rules to enforced? We already have bikes, on pavements and in pedestrian only areas. Without much regulation. Add in mobility scooters and the poor pedestrian doesn't stand a chance.



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: stuving on July 03, 2020, 09:29:08 am
My other concern is potholes. Won't the scooters smaller wheels make the riders more vulnerable to accidents than other road users?

There's a way round that problem - at least in Plymouth (https://www.visitplymouth.co.uk/things-to-do/scooter-bike-hire-and-guided-tours-p2718973). AKA foot bikes - but mainly for sports use, and I don't think the big hirers do anything similar.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on July 03, 2020, 10:20:16 am
Quote
The seafront at Weymouth hosts a wider variety of travel modes on the road and wide esplanade
But in the case of Weymouth, fairly large areas of prohibition of bicycles. So will bikes be prohibited but e-scooters acceptable?I

I would prefer to see E scooters subjected to the same rules, restrictions and regulations as cycles. If cycles are allowed then E scooters should be. If cycles are prohibited, then so should be E scooters.
I support the use of lightweight electric transport for reasons already given, but I also dislike excessive regulation, and the army of well paid civil servants and officials whose job it is to enforce such regulations, and to find ways of adding complexity to such regulations.
Subjecting E scooters to the same restrictions on speed and weight as electrically assisted cycles has the advantage of simplicity.
Treating them as cycles as regards where and how they may be used also has the merits of simplicity.
Such regulations should be national, so as to stop each local authority from having their own regulations. (And having a well paid committee drawing up these local regulations)

Amend the relevant sections of the Highway Code by replacing the word "cycles" with "cycles, E scooters and similar vehicles"


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on July 03, 2020, 10:44:41 am
I will be sticking with my pedal cycle; I am unconvinced that allowing eScooters to use cycle paths/lanes - given the potential speed differential - is a good idea. Also does the ban on eScooters using pavements extend to footways which have been changed into shared pedestrian/cycle facilities?

I would treat them as cycles.
So banned from pavements, EXCEPT when such a way is clearly designated as a shared cycleway and foot way.
Wearing a safety hat would be prudent but should not in my view be a legal requirement, just as wearing protective headgear is ADVISED but not required for cycling.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on July 03, 2020, 12:27:52 pm
...clearly designated...

There, in my experience, is the rub.

It would be easy to come to the conclusion that for the most part cycle paths are designed by non-cyclists who really don't care how usable they are as long as they look good from a passing car. Too often they end in eccentric or ambiguous ways, more or less forcing users to ride on the pavement or negotiate dangerous junctions from the worst possible approach.

If a whole new class of user is to be forcibly injected on to this already-inadequate 'network', then I suggest that the number of accidents is likely to rise sharply.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on July 03, 2020, 01:02:30 pm
I agree that many cycle routes are very poorly designed, that however is in my view a reason to push for improvements and is not a reason to prohibit use of cycle routes by E scooters.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 03, 2020, 05:25:20 pm
In Central London, the TfL bikes are a common sight. Also now increasingly common to see are the dockless hire bikes from other companies scattered inconsiderately along the pavement. I presume e-scooters will need to be docked so they can be charged otherwise they would join this clutter.

My other concern is potholes. Won't the scooters smaller wheels make the riders more vulnerable to accidents than other road users?
This scheme is specifically for docked hire scooters. I don't know if the docks incorporate chargers or if they'll be collected up from time to time and charged. The private ones currently on the road obviously don't dock, but being personal possessions they're unlikely to be left around in random places. It seems most people fold them up (the tube connecting the handlebars to the front wheel telescopes and/or folds flat) and keep them under their desks.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on October 02, 2020, 08:48:03 am
From The BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-54380251)

Quote
E-scooters should be legalised on roads but riding on pavements should be prohibited, the Transport Committee of MPs has said.

Currently, privately-owned e-scooters are banned to use in the UK anywhere except on private land.

The committee argues the vehicles, which usually travel 9-15mph, could offer a green alternative to the car.

Official trials of rented e-scooters have already been announced in some places in England.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Marlburian on October 02, 2020, 09:49:30 am
A good idea, but one that is already being abused by people who can get them to go as fast as 50mph. What about lights at night and insurance.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 02, 2020, 09:58:32 am
It seems eccentric that on this island, exceptionally, these vehicles are not considered safe.

I was, as is my wont, amused by the use of good ol' US Customary units. 15.5 mph is, of course, 25km/h in real money.

The issue of potholes and poor road surfaces is an important one. If a car hits a pothole, the driver is unlikely to be injured. If you hit a pothole on a two-wheeled vehicle the consequences are likely to be rather worse. I fell off an (unpowered) adult-sized scooter recently, and ended up with a shiner and four stitches in my head.



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: CyclingSid on October 02, 2020, 12:21:33 pm
Who is going to regulate this? I can't see the police being interested, as most traffic units have been cut almost to the point of non-existence.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 02, 2020, 04:27:55 pm
These vehicles exist and are being used on the roads. They're not even a new invention ? I first saw one about eight years ago (being ridden up the Gloucester Rd in Bristol). All that's new is the involvement of hire companies in addition to manufacturers and retailers. The sensible thing to do is to bring all slow, small, electrically powered vehicles, regardless of configuration of wheels and seats, under one set of regulations along the lines of the Electrically Assisted Pedal Cycles (EAPC) rules: 250W maximum, 25km/h cut out, no self-start, and some general fitness for purpose along the lines of BS6102 Pt1.

Legalisation would allow people to use them, or rather to carry on using them, and be covered by insurance if they cause a crash (many/most home insurance policies cover this) as well as be prosecuted for specific offences eg jumping red lights if necessary.


Edit:VickiS - Clarifying Abbreviation


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 02, 2020, 05:05:18 pm
Quote
E-scooter operator announced for West of England trial scheme

Residents and visitors will soon be able to get around the West of England on e-scooters after Regional Mayor Tim Bowles announced the name of the company appointed to deliver the region?s e-scooter trials.

Voi Technology Ltd will be making hop-on hop-off e-scooters available in Bristol and Bath to help residents and visitors to get around central areas. E-scooters will also be available at other key locations in South Gloucestershire such as stations, university campuses, hospitals and large employment sites.

Full article (https://www.westofengland-ca.gov.uk/e-scooter-operator-announced-for-west-of-england-trial-scheme/)
Source: WECA


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on October 02, 2020, 05:36:12 pm
Who is going to regulate this? I can't see the police being interested, as most traffic units have been cut almost to the point of non-existence.

Very little regulation is needed in my view, no more than applies to cycles whether electrically assisted or otherwise.
Users should IMHO be subjected to the same rules as cycles.
An E scooter should be subject to the same limits on speed and power as are applied to electrically assisted cycles.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on October 02, 2020, 05:41:36 pm
It seems eccentric that on this island, exceptionally, these vehicles are not considered safe.

I was, as is my wont, amused by the use of good ol' US Customary units. 15.5 mph is, of course, 25km/h in real money.

The issue of potholes and poor road surfaces is an important one. If a car hits a pothole, the driver is unlikely to be injured. If you hit a pothole on a two-wheeled vehicle the consequences are likely to be rather worse. I fell off an (unpowered) adult-sized scooter recently, and ended up with a shiner and four stitches in my head.



I agree. There are some risks, as your unfortunate mishap illustrates, but not excessive if compared to the risks involved in cycling or walking.
The administrative class are no doubt looking forward to a whole new mode of transport to regulate and control.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: johnneyw on October 02, 2020, 06:29:30 pm
I fell off an (unpowered) adult-sized scooter recently, and ended up with a shiner and four stitches in my head.



I'm sure I wasn't the only one to read that and think "ouch"!


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 03, 2020, 07:39:40 pm
Who is going to regulate this? I can't see the police being interested, as most traffic units have been cut almost to the point of non-existence.

Very little regulation is needed in my view, no more than applies to cycles whether electrically assisted or otherwise.
Users should IMHO be subjected to the same rules as cycles.
An E scooter should be subject to the same limits on speed and power as are applied to electrically assisted cycles.

So far, I have only seen mention of two deaths in the UK attributed to e-scooters, and in both cases, the rider was the deceased. It will need either quite a few more riders, or a couple of pedestrians to die or be badly hurt before we get anywhere close to regulation. Possibly a single MP could be the catalyst, we shall have to wait and see.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Marlburian on October 03, 2020, 08:41:30 pm
... An E scooter should be subject to the same limits on speed and power as are applied to electrically assisted cycles.

Both have limits set by the manufacturers but, as I suggested a few posts ago, there are various hacks on the web to override these and, in the case of scooters, attain speeds of up to 40mph or more. Also already mentioned is the danger of those small wheels not coping with poor road surfaces.

Sure, they seem a good way of commuting if ridden sensibly but, as with other modes of transport, it takes just a few idiots to give them a bad reputation. Not sure if they have audible warnings of approach, and at night-time any worthwhile rear lamps would have to be on the rider.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on October 04, 2020, 02:36:14 pm
Anyone riding an illegally modified scooter on public roads should be prosecuted, as riders of unduly fast or powerful electrically assisted cycles can be.
If they kill anyone, a prosecution for manslaughter might be reasonable.
I doubt however that it will be a significant problem, any more than is the case with cycles.

The wearing of a safety hat should be encouraged, but not be obligatory, as is the case with cycles.
Lights should be a requirement on public roads after dark, and in view of the small size of these scooters might be better affixed to the clothing of the rider and not to the scooter.

On private property they may do largely as they please, and break their fool necks if they so wish.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 04, 2020, 06:55:11 pm
Anyone riding an illegally modified scooter on public roads should be prosecuted, as riders of unduly fast or powerful electrically assisted cycles can be.
If they kill anyone, a prosecution for manslaughter might be reasonable.
I doubt however that it will be a significant problem, any more than is the case with cycles.

The law has yet to catch up with the bicycle. The last cyclist to be prosecuted after knocking down a pedestrian with fatal results was charged with causing bodily harm by "wanton or furious driving or racing, or other wilful misconduct", contrary to the Offences Against the Person Act 1861.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on October 04, 2020, 10:40:28 pm
If these E scooters are legalised then I foresee a problem if people expect to charge them on trains.
The cost of the energy to charge them is trivial, but it might overload a system designed for cellphones and the odd laptop.
And the owners might expect to place the E scooters on seats or in other unsuitable places in order to be within reach of a socket outlet.

Also possible conflicts if people expect to charge them at stations. (I would be inclined to allow this)

These are not insurmountable problems, and I remain in favour of allowing and even encouraging E scooter use, much greener than driving, and the machines are easier to carry and to stow on a train than are cycles.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on October 05, 2020, 04:55:28 am
If these E scooters are legalised then I foresee a problem if people expect to charge them on trains.

Yes - mirroring the massive problem already with people wanting to charge electric cycles on trains?  :D ;D

There seems at times a mismatch between what people want and what is provided on electric charging.   Provision in town centre car parks and at stations for cars is perhaps underused as people charge up at home and maybe at work if they drive all the way.  Expect no different for electric cycles and scooters?    Unlike phones which are carrier around and in use all day at home and in the office, so less convenient to charge there, vehicles tend to be idle and chargeable at both journey ends.

Rapid charge points for car at service areas / stations / cafes beside trunk roads make sense for longer journeys in those vehicles. Long distance e-cycling and e-scootering is unlikely (?) to be a massive way people get around.



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on October 05, 2020, 10:52:38 am
I have met people who take every opportunity to charge cellphones and laptops any place other than at home, in order to save on their home electricity bill.
They are unable to understand that the saving is minute.

If such persons acquire E scooters ?

Look at the trouble some drivers go to in order to obtain petrol a penny cheaper, if in the future their transport need is met by electric power, then consider the trouble to which they might go for free electricity.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 05, 2020, 11:14:28 am

If such persons acquire E scooters ?


Quote
'Supposing a tree fell down, Pooh, when we were underneath it?'
'Supposing it didn't,' said Pooh after careful thought.
Piglet was comforted by this.
A A Milne


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 05, 2020, 12:55:19 pm
Rapid charge points for car at service areas / stations / cafes beside trunk roads make sense for longer journeys in those vehicles. Long distance e-cycling and e-scootering is unlikely (?) to be a massive way people get around.
I'm no expert on e-bikes but I'm fairly sure there aren't any using the various types of rapid charging which e-cars have. They're just charged from a standard mains socket, which does the job in a reasonable time because the batteries are so much smaller than those in a car or van.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 05, 2020, 01:01:25 pm
They're just charged from a standard mains socket...


...like the ones on trains.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on October 05, 2020, 01:30:58 pm
They're just charged from a standard mains socket...


...like the ones on trains.

Just taken a look at the charger that came with my e-byke. 90 Watts ... like the one for larger laptops.   For comparison - hairdryer 1500 to 2000 watts. Heating hair rollers, 400 watts. Curling irons 200 watts. Slow cooker 200 watts. Microwave 800 watts. Iron 1200 watts. Toaster 1000 watts. Kettle 1800 Watts.

Talking to rail staff in the past, they say it is surprising how often people trip out the power in particular reference made to hairdryers, but I don't think that the charger for an e-byke, or e-scooter, would be a major problem ... that's assuming that mine is typical.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on October 05, 2020, 03:36:11 pm
The power demand for charging an E scooter is indeed modest, anything from 25 watts up to 200 watts.
Still might be a bit much for a system sized for cellphones and the odd laptop, remembering that the E scooters will be in addition to phones and laptops, not instead of these.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on October 05, 2020, 05:18:42 pm
The power demand for charging an E scooter is indeed modest, anything from 25 watts up to 200 watts.
Still might be a bit much for a system sized for cellphones and the odd laptop, remembering that the E scooters will be in addition to phones and laptops, not instead of these.

It would need 10 e-Scooters being charged to equal one toaster, or 15 e-Scooters to equal one hair dryer.   


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on October 05, 2020, 06:05:40 pm
True, but not in my view relevant since hairdryers are not meant to be used on most trains.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Surrey 455 on October 05, 2020, 08:18:57 pm
True, but not in my view relevant since hairdryers are not meant to be used on most trains.

I don't see many at seat power sockets on my trains. The last one I saw, about 2 or 3 weeks ago, stated "Laptops only". Can't remember which train company it was.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 06, 2020, 09:52:08 am
I'm not sure I would be so bothered about a few e-scooters plugged into the mains on the train as I would be about a few e-scooters on tables and seats close to electric sockets.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: eXPassenger on October 06, 2020, 06:05:29 pm
I'm not sure I would be so bothered about a few e-scooters plugged into the mains on the train as I would be about a few e-scooters on tables and seats close to electric sockets.

or an extension cable from a seat down the carriage to the luggage rack.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 06, 2020, 08:22:03 pm
Picking an e-scooter at random, I see it is quoted as having a typical range of 21km. It really is hard to imagine a case where someone would ride their scooter anything like this far to a station, and then rely on being able to recharge it on a train. In any case they'd need to stay on the train for 5 hours to recharge it.

Surely most people would ride less than 5km to a station and less than 5km to their final destination, where they would recharge it?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on October 06, 2020, 08:41:36 pm
Picking an e-scooter at random, I see it is quoted as having a typical range of 21km. It really is hard to imagine a case where someone would ride their scooter anything like this far to a station, and then rely on being able to recharge it on a train. In any case they'd need to stay on the train for 5 hours to recharge it.

Surely most people would ride less than 5km to a station and less than 5km to their final destination, where they would recharge it?

Well now ... in my youff I lived in Orpington.   Rode a moped up to Euston and travelled with it on the Clansman to Inverness.  That, of course, was a petrol device (wouldn't be allowed on the train these days). Memories of it being in the rear van which stuck out the back of the platform, and the train having to be split and shunted to let me off.

Falacy in the "charge on train" argument for a modern electric version ... that I stopped overnight in Inverness and there would have been plenty of time to charge as I slept in my hotel before setting off to explore places like John O'Groats, Durness, Kinlochberbervie, Lochinver, Poolewe, Glenelg, the Quirang, Arisaig, Strontian, Lochranza and Ardrossan before getting the train back from Carlisle.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 06, 2020, 09:33:24 pm
Well if we're reminiscing about guard's vans... I remember aged about 18 or 19 riding my bicycle to Cheltenham in brilliant sunshine. While I was there the heavens opened, thunder and lightning, dancing rain drops and all. So I decided to get the train back. Put my bike in the guard's van. Got out at Stroud, walked along the platform to the guard's van and there were two bikes in it. Neither of them mine. Panic! Some thief at Gloucester or Stonehouse has walked off with my bike! "Yours is in the other van" said the guard. Yes, two guard's vans (but only one guard).  :o No buffet though.  ;) This would have been the late 80s.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 08, 2020, 07:36:42 pm
Picking an e-scooter at random, I see it is quoted as having a typical range of 21km. It really is hard to imagine a case where someone would ride their scooter anything like this far to a station, and then rely on being able to recharge it on a train. In any case they'd need to stay on the train for 5 hours to recharge it.

Surely most people would ride less than 5km to a station and less than 5km to their final destination, where they would recharge it?

You would think so, but then you wouldn't expect to see a desktop computer, monitor and printer set up on a table in a carriage.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 22, 2020, 06:46:20 pm
On-train charging for e-bikes and presumably also e-scooters now available; but only on five trains, all in Scotland.
Quote
The redesigned carriage boasts space for tandem cycles, and an e-bike charging socket ? a first for a train in the UK.
https://www.railbusinessdaily.com/first-look-inside-scotrails-active-travel-carriages/


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 22, 2020, 11:21:43 pm
I take it all back. O tempora, o mores!


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 23, 2020, 06:57:37 am
I take it all back. O tempora, o mores!

Sic Transit Gloria Swanson. Good luck with that crossword tomorrow.

My view on what passengers are capable of where personal transport is concerned was modified by witnessing a stand-up argument between a train manager and the healthy young man who wanted to bring his mountain bike onto a pretty full (then only two-car) train to get from Stapleton Road to Montpelier.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 29, 2020, 03:40:14 pm
Quote
E-SCOOTER HIRE TRIALS BEGIN IN BRISTOL

(https://www.bristol247.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Hire-scooters-Bristol-photo-by-Martin-Booth-1600x900.jpg)

One hundred coral-coloured electric scooters can now be hired in Bristol.

Thursday is the first day of a trial scheme for the vehicles, which cost ?1 to unlock via the Voi app and then are charged at 20p per minute to ride.

While privately owned e-scooters remain illegal to use on roads, pavements, parks and any other areas, the e-scooters that are hired or leased through the trial can be used legally on roads, cycle lanes or cycle tracks.

[...continues] (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/e-scooter-hire-trials-begin-in-bristol/)
Source: Bristol 24/7


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 29, 2020, 04:45:27 pm
Good news on e-scooters comes from Birmingham, where, following the start of their own trial, a magnet fishing group has found a way to recover them from canals. So says the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/topics/c2w7p1q416dt/electric-bikes-and-scooters).

Quote
Magnet fishing group asked to help retrieve e-scooters
A group that uses magnets to fish metal items out of Birmingham's canals has been asked to help retrieve missing e-scooters.

(https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/live-experience/cps/624/cpsprodpb/vivo/live/images/2020/10/20/baf458ae-9baa-4287-828f-1ac272c5657d.jpg)
Scooter
Marie CollinsCopyright: Marie Collins
A 12-month trial of the devices is taking place across parts of the West Midlands by Swedish company Voi.

Marie Collins, from the Peaky Dippers group, said it had helped fish one from the water and the company had "already told us where there's a few that need pulling out".

A spokesperson from Voi said the company was against any acts of vandalism that could lead to pollution and was developing a "drowning feature" that would alert it immediately when a scooter ended up under water.

Since launching in the city, the company said there had been more than 24,000 rides taken by more than 6,700 unique users.

"Peaky dippers" -  ;D

This won't be a problem in Bristol, obviously.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on October 29, 2020, 05:14:52 pm
Quote
the vehicles ... cost ?1 to unlock via the Voi app and then are charged at 20p per minute to ride.

That's a lot more than I was expecting!


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 29, 2020, 05:23:18 pm
I saw two people using them today. I think they'd just activated the app and unlocked them.

Yeah, 20p a minute does seem a lot compared to ?1 an hour for the Yo bikes (which of course aren't electric) or even to a bus fare.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on October 29, 2020, 06:08:02 pm

Yeah, 20p a minute does seem a lot ...

Provocative comparison:
Taxi 133p / km = 213p / mile plus overhead
e-Scooter 80p / mile at top speed 15 m.p.h;  average half that = 160p / mile plus overhead
Electric bike - 2000p for 3.5 hours; say 15 miles = 133p / mile includes overhead
Shank's pony - stop for coffee at 250p every 2 hours at 3.5 m.p.h = 37p / mile

Bus Melksham to Trowbridge, 6 miles - 450p = 70p / mile
Train Melksham to Trowbridge, 6 miles - 420p = 75p / mile
Train RETURN  / Melksham to Trowbridge (41p or 38p off peak return)

At 20p / minute (12 pounds per hour) I suspect that speed of docking / undocking and how fast you can travel will be significant and could encourage speed over safety?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 29, 2020, 06:34:51 pm
I would expect to travel far more than 15 miles in 3.5 hours on an electric bike, or even a non-electric one.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on October 29, 2020, 07:25:40 pm
I would expect to travel far more than 15 miles in 3.5 hours on an electric bike, or even a non-electric one.

Indeed, but with the same hire and return point in the city of Bristol, would you want to be cycling all the time?  The blurb suggests enough battery for 50 miles ...


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 29, 2020, 11:00:26 pm
Provocative comparison:
Taxi 133p / km = 213p / mile plus overhead
e-Scooter 80p / mile at top speed 15 m.p.h;  average half that = 160p / mile plus overhead
Electric bike - 2000p for 3.5 hours; say 15 miles = 133p / mile includes overhead
Shank's pony - stop for coffee at 250p every 2 hours at 3.5 m.p.h = 37p / mile

Bus Melksham to Trowbridge, 6 miles - 450p = 70p / mile
Train Melksham to Trowbridge, 6 miles - 420p = 75p / mile
Train RETURN  / Melksham to Trowbridge (41p or 38p off peak return)

At 20p / minute (12 pounds per hour) I suspect that speed of docking / undocking and how fast you can travel will be significant and could encourage speed over safety?

We could label these different items, a bit like Trip Advisor and others do, to show relative costs in a simple, easy to understand, pictorial way:
Train             ?
Bus              ??
E-bike          ???
E-scooter     ????

(I never knew that 3 ?'s make a ???!)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on October 30, 2020, 07:18:21 am
We could label these different items, a bit like Trip Advisor and others do, to show relative costs in a simple, easy to understand, pictorial way:
Train             ?
Bus              ??
E-bike          ???
E-scooter     ????

(I never knew that 3 ?'s make a ???!)

Technical note - the additional "Don't use smileys" option on posts allows you to switch this behaviour off for the whole of your post.     Do want just a few cases where ??? actually appears?  If so, you can insert an empty extra tag pair such as start and end italics between the characters which normally make a smiley.

8)  for 8) is the one I most commonly run across ...




Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on October 30, 2020, 09:39:35 am

Technical note - the additional "Don't use smileys" option on posts allows you to switch this behaviour off for the whole of your post.     Do want just a few cases where ??? actually appears?  If so, you can insert an empty extra tag pair such as start and end italics between the characters which normally make a smiley.

8)  for 8) is the one I most commonly run across ...

They were meant to be ? signs - a bit like $ or ? but more British, but somehow come out all wrong. I'm no expert with computers.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 03, 2020, 12:16:07 pm
Plans for extending the e-scooter scheme in Bristol were outlined at a meeting I attended (on Zoom) this morning. These are tentative at the moment, but include expanding the zones to the north (including the north fringe), west and south and increasing the number of scooters from 100 to 750 and ultimately 2000.

Future plans include an option to take out a personal lease on a scooter, which would allow you to take it home.

There is an aspiration to locate scooters at railway stations, but they will have to be parked on council-owned land pending negotiations with NR/GWR. At Redland and Montpelier stations there is council-owned land close by, so these sites might present an early opportunity.

The scooters are initially limited to '10 mph' while people get used to them; this reduces to '5 mph' in shared use areas. Some places such as parks and shopping centres, and the zone limits, are geo-fenced. This is achieved by setting the speed limit to zero. Notably this doesn't stop people from pushing the scooter.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 03, 2020, 01:46:10 pm
Interesting news there, thanks, RS. Point by point:

At present the zone seems to be quite limited in the northward direction; ends at the Arches, from what I've seen. Was this just due to lack of scooters or something else?

Lease would presumably be priced at a huge discount to the current ?12 an hour... Who would be responsible for maintenance? How would the driving licence requirement be enforced if you can, in effect, lend it to other household members?

Why are they limited to 10mph rather than the 15mph that applies to e-bikes and is what I've heard in Birmingham (friend hired one there for an experiment)? Or has the speed been reduced nationally?

I'm not necessarily expecting you to have all or even any of the answers...



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on November 03, 2020, 02:40:20 pm
I'll do my best...

I think BCC were very concerned to phase this, so as to avoid hundreds of scooters getting dumped on the streets. It is all very controlled. And BCC's keen, I think, to get the community engagement right on this.

There are some 'interesting' controls: if you pick one up in the late evening, you may have to do a little quiz to check you are sober, for example, and you may receive a national ban if you break the usage rules. I imagine that might apply if you sublet a leased one, though that's just conjecture on my part. 

Every night the scooters will be 'rebalanced': moved to where they'll be needed the next day. So there'll be vans going round doing that, and presumably swapping batteries and so on.

The initial low speed limit is just part of the cautious approach; they'll be slow for a month while people get used to them and then the 25km/h limit will kick in.



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on November 03, 2020, 04:48:05 pm
Hopefully an electric van will be used to transport the scooters rather than petrol or diesel fueled.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on November 03, 2020, 05:02:12 pm
It sounds a more measured approach than the "big bang" method tried in some other places. As you say, getting the non-scooting public onside is key. The yellow hire pushbikes were becoming a nuisance in some parts - clearly something not wanted for scooters.

I must have a play when I next visit Bristol.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: CyclingSid on November 04, 2020, 07:02:06 am
Useful modification?
https://inews.co.uk/news/technology/e-scooters-alerts-noise-sensors-warn-pedestrians-safety-746228 (https://inews.co.uk/news/technology/e-scooters-alerts-noise-sensors-warn-pedestrians-safety-746228)
if it happens


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on November 04, 2020, 09:11:07 am
Useful modification?
https://inews.co.uk/news/technology/e-scooters-alerts-noise-sensors-warn-pedestrians-safety-746228 (https://inews.co.uk/news/technology/e-scooters-alerts-noise-sensors-warn-pedestrians-safety-746228)
if it happens

Someone will complain that this will make no difference to the majority of younger people, immersed as they are in phones and music, but merely add an irritating beep-beep noise to the sound of screams, scooters doing a Colston into the docks, drums from today's demonstration, and the Mayoral telecast from Kuala Lumpur. I won't.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Surrey 455 on January 14, 2021, 08:00:39 pm
From the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-55644560)
Quote
Anyone given an e-scooter as a Christmas gift should return it, a senior Met officer has said.

The devices have proved popular gifts even though privately-owned e-scooters are illegal to use on roads or in public places.

Ch Supt Simon Ovens said buying an e-scooter as a present was "crazy" because they were a danger to riders and others.

"They're simply not built for our roads," he added.

Later he adds
Quote
Ch Supt Ovens said he was not against new technology being introduced but Scotland Yard "really don't want more deaths".

The Met is keen to support a trial on rental e-scooters as they would be "a bit safer and more compliant", he added.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on January 15, 2021, 04:56:55 pm
From Bristol 247: (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/police-praise-e-scooter-trial-after-fearing-twisted-metal-and-bodies-scattered-all-over-the-highway/)

Quote
POLICE PRAISE E-SCOOTER TRIAL AFTER FEARING 'TWISTED METAL AND BODIES SCATTERED ALL OVER THE HIGHWAY'

Police chiefs have been won over by the region's e-scooter trials after initially fearing 'twisted metal and bodies scattered all over the highway', it has been revealed.

Avon & Somerset Constabulary traffic management unit boss Richard McKiernan told a remote meeting that he had expected carnage on roads and pavements during the West of England Combined Authority's (WECA's) pilot project.

Instead it has been a 'policing non-event' and he has been 'massively reassured' by the trial, which metro mayor Tim Bowles says will become vital in how we move around the region for generations to come.

...continues (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/police-praise-e-scooter-trial-after-fearing-twisted-metal-and-bodies-scattered-all-over-the-highway/)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on January 15, 2021, 08:26:39 pm
From Bristol 247: (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/police-praise-e-scooter-trial-after-fearing-twisted-metal-and-bodies-scattered-all-over-the-highway/)

Quote
POLICE PRAISE E-SCOOTER TRIAL AFTER FEARING 'TWISTED METAL AND BODIES SCATTERED ALL OVER THE HIGHWAY'

Police chiefs have been won over by the region's e-scooter trials after initially fearing 'twisted metal and bodies scattered all over the highway', it has been revealed.

Avon & Somerset Constabulary traffic management unit boss Richard McKiernan told a remote meeting that he had expected carnage on roads and pavements during the West of England Combined Authority's (WECA's) pilot project.

Instead it has been a 'policing non-event' and he has been 'massively reassured' by the trial, which metro mayor Tim Bowles says will become vital in how we move around the region for generations to come.

...continues (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/police-praise-e-scooter-trial-after-fearing-twisted-metal-and-bodies-scattered-all-over-the-highway/)

I read that too, and thought it grounds for measured optimism. I can't imagine how it will pan out in the future. A limited experiment during a prolonged quiet spell with a few hundred machines owned by a monopoly is one thing. Upscaling that to a few thousand, and letting people use the scooter they bought on EBay to cut through a dark, rainy rush hour in the run-up to Christmas may prove to be a horse of a different colour.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: johnneyw on February 20, 2021, 04:40:01 pm
I don't know what the overall take up is currently like in Bristol but since a couple of e-scooter hubs appeared fairly near my house, they have become a frequent sight on the roads in my locality.  The clientele seem to be overwhelmingly in the under 30 age group and so far, they seem to be combining successfully with the rest of the road users in the Redland/Bishopston/Westbury Park locales where Johnneyw Towers is located.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: CyclingSid on February 21, 2021, 08:24:55 am
Brave or foolish users in London
https://twitter.com/MPSRoyal_Parks/status/1357854916677693446/photo/1 (https://twitter.com/MPSRoyal_Parks/status/1357854916677693446/photo/1)
Wouldn't last long with the pot holes in Reading


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on March 27, 2021, 08:07:43 am
I saw two people using them today. I think they'd just activated the app and unlocked them.

Yeah, 20p a minute does seem a lot compared to ?1 an hour for the Yo bikes (which of course aren't electric) or even to a bus fare.

Noting that YoBikes are now NoBikes.  From Bristol 24/7 (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/yobikes-no-longer-available-for-hire-in-bristol/)

Quote
Bristol’s dockless bicycle hire scheme is no more, with YoBike quietly pulling the plug on their operations in the city.

The YoBike website has been deleted but the app is still available to download.

Customers across Bristol are now asking how they can get money back which is still on their accounts within the YoBike app.

A natural thinning out of the commercial market as it matures, a problem with the business model, or something else?  How are cycle hire outfits doing elsewhere?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 27, 2021, 01:59:28 pm
As far as I'm aware other schemes in other cities are still running. I can only speculate but I'd guess at two factors:
Competition from the new (to Bristol) electric scooter hire scheme, which is very popular.
A natural consequence of the dockless hire model. Because the bikes don't have to be returned to a secure location to end the hire period, they're more vulnerable to vandalism, theft and being thrown in the New Cut. This means greater operating expenses in terms of distribution and maintenance and replenishing dwindling supplies. Which leads to another potential factor, running out of stock!


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Richard Fairhurst on March 28, 2021, 12:59:19 pm
They've pretty much all gone from Oxford, which once had four competing companies. Great shame - I used Mobike extensively in Milan a couple of years ago and it was a superb way of seeing the city. But frankly this is what happens when big-bang VC investment means that a company doesn't grow a market organically...


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: stuving on March 28, 2021, 10:50:10 pm
And, coincidentally, from the BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-berkshire-56549344) today -
Quote
Bikes from failed ReadyBike hire scheme used for tourism boost

Bicycles left over from a failed hire scheme are being donated to hotels in a bid to boost tourism.

The ReadyBike scheme in Reading ended in 2019 after struggling when a government subsidy ended.

It emerged Reading Borough Council had been keeping the scheme running at a cost of £10,000 a month.

The council said it was donating 50 redundant bikes as a "new sustainable travel option" for hotel visitors and staff.

The stock of ReadyBikes has been kept in storage since the bike hire scheme ended two years ago.

The bikes were also offered to key workers in Reading as part of a short-term loan scheme during the pandemic.

Reading's hotels had suffered from lockdowns restricting overnight stays, with some losing almost an entire year's income, the council said.

Nigel Horton Baker of Reading UK, which promotes tourism in the Berkshire town, said the donation was "very welcome" for the "hard-hit tourism and hospitality sector" which has been curtailed with lockdowns restricting overnight stays.

"With business visitor numbers decimated, it is vital that Reading's hotels are able to attract leisure visitors this year.

"Promoting Reading as a healthy and safe outdoor destination will be an important strand of this work," he added.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: CyclingSid on March 29, 2021, 07:27:15 am
The Brompton hire in Reading also failed, although I believe that was partly to do with repeated attempts to steal the bikes. Last time I looked Brompton hire had never turned a profit.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on March 29, 2021, 10:09:54 am
I would imagine (might be wrong) the Brompton Docks were aimed very much at commuters. So maybe, just maybe, business will pick up for them from next year.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on March 29, 2021, 01:58:23 pm
In Bristol, I became accustomed to the yellow bikes, or remains thereof, being dumped willy-nilly. I wondered how a business could continue in that situation. Seems I know the answer now.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on March 30, 2021, 01:55:27 pm
Quote
HIRE SCOOTERS REMOVED FROM AREAS OF CLIFTON VILLAGE

The menace of a melee of hire scooters has led to complaints that the vehicles are regularly blocking pavements across Bristol.

Voi vehicles need to be parked by users in specific places, but some of these “geofenced” areas are on narrow pavements.

Cliftonwood resident Jess Siggers said that she “frigging hates these things”, referring to the e-scooters and tweeting a photo of more than a dozen them blocking the pavement on Sion Hill close to the Clifton Suspension Bridge.

[...]

The e-scooter operator is now exploring new user features to ensure scooters are correctly parked and has launched a page where people can report any misplaced scooters: www.voiscooters.com/report/uk

Full article (https://www.bristol247.com/news-and-features/news/hire-scooters-removed-from-areas-clifton-village/)
Source: Bristol247


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on June 07, 2021, 09:11:52 pm
E scooter hire to be expanded.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48106617 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48106617)

A good thing in my view, there will of course be accidents, but hopefully not too many.
Cycling and walking also results in accidents but these modes of transport are tolerated and even encouraged.

With the current concerns about climate change and fossil fuel depletion, we need to encourage use of E-scooters and other very low carbon options such as E-bikes.

In my view private E scooters should be allowed, not just rental machines. They should be subject to the same limits on speed as are E- cycles.

E-scooters and E-bikes of greater speed and power should NOT be totally prohibited, but should be treated as motorcycles, and require a motorcycle licence, hard hat, and insurance.

No such should be required for low speed machines.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 07, 2021, 10:23:16 pm
E scooter hire to be expanded.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48106617 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-48106617)

A good thing in my view, there will of course be accidents, but hopefully not too many.
Cycling and walking also results in accidents but these modes of transport are tolerated and even encouraged.

With the current concerns about climate change and fossil fuel depletion, we need to encourage use of E-scooters and other very low carbon options such as E-bikes.

In my view private E scooters should be allowed, not just rental machines. They should be subject to the same limits on speed as are E- cycles.

E-scooters and E-bikes of greater speed and power should NOT be totally prohibited, but should be treated as motorcycles, and require a motorcycle licence, hard hat, and insurance.

No such should be required for low speed machines.

Those on offer in 4 London Boroughs are limited to 15mph and require the hirer to have a car licence, not motorcycle licence.

Helmets are not compulsory, but anyone choosing not to wear one clearly has little worth protecting in their head.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on June 08, 2021, 04:03:57 am
Those on offer in 4 London Boroughs are limited to 15mph and require the hirer to have a car licence, not motorcycle licence.

I would suspect the car license is chosen because it's a commonly held license that requires you to know rules of the road and to have been passed as reasonably competent.  Fewer people hold motorcycle licenses, so to require one of those instead, though probably closer in skill needs to an e-scooter, would limit the market of possible renters.   I couldn't find stats for the numbers of licenses, but I did find a page telling me that motorcycle miles are about one hundredth of car miles.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 08, 2021, 06:20:47 am
Those on offer in 4 London Boroughs are limited to 15mph and require the hirer to have a car licence, not motorcycle licence.

I would suspect the car license is chosen because it's a commonly held license that requires you to know rules of the road and to have been passed as reasonably competent.  Fewer people hold motorcycle licenses, so to require one of those instead, though probably closer in skill needs to an e-scooter, would limit the market of possible renters.   I couldn't find stats for the numbers of licenses, but I did find a page telling me that motorcycle miles are about one hundredth of car miles.

It's because Category Q, which includes trial e-scooters, is included on a car license.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on June 08, 2021, 10:29:39 am
It's also included on a motorcycle licence, according to that BBC story. It would be odd if it were not.

I agree with Broadgage on this, the relevant laws should be amended to allow all e-scooters to be used legally on roads, subject to the speed, weight and power limits applied to the hire scooters.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 08, 2021, 10:57:48 am
Helmets are not compulsory, but anyone choosing not to wear one clearly has little worth protecting in their head.

Voi quite assertively recommend that anyone hiring one of their e-scooters should wear a helmet. Of course it doesn't cost Voi much to do that, and could help their defence should a customer sustain a head injury and subsequently sue.

In reality, Voi's business model is all about convenience. Almost certainly most of their users don't possess a helmet of any kind. For those who do have one, it may not be very convenient to carry it around on the off-chance that they may need it.

I have seen a lot of people riding Voi scooters where I live in north-west Bristol. I can't remember seeing anyone wearing a helmet on one. Maybe this is in part due to the fact that there are few modern highways and extensive 20 mph speed limits in much of this area, making the roads somewhat safer for non-motorists.

At the end of the WECA trial we'll presumably have statistics on rates of injury, including where crashes happened, who else was involved and what protective clothing the user was wearing. From these it will be possible to take a balanced view on how these machines should be regulated, without indulging in victim-blaming or culture war tropes.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 08, 2021, 11:28:44 am
A study of 248 people injured in Berlin revealed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst riding scooters were admitted to hospital, 1 in 5 who came off were over the drink drive limit (of whom 31% sustained traumatic brain injuries), and only 1 in 100 were wearing a helmet.

The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory, there should be a minimum age limit of 18, a ban on alcohol no driving on pavements and strict adherence to traffic regulations.



Let's hope we take all that on board. Protecting one's brain is probably worth a little minor inconvenience.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 08, 2021, 12:17:55 pm
Voi have the driving licence details of anyone who hires their scooters, and anyone riding one under the influence of alcohol will be treated in the same way as if they were driving any other vehicle, including fines, penalty points and bans.

Scooters can be ridden anywhere where it is legal to ride a bicycle.

As to the balance of risk versus convenience: It's complicated. It's worth noting, for example, that taxi drivers do not have to wear seatbelts while they are working, but must wear them when they are not. Small children may travel in taxis without car seats, but may not travel in other cars without one.

The only people I've seen wearing helmets on e-scooters have been riding illegal, privately-owned ones. If you own a scooter, clearly you use it in a different way - for door-to-door journeys - so wearing a helmet is more convenient because you don't have to carry it around with you when you change to a different mode of transport.

Chris Boardman (https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2017/mar/21/bike-helmet-cyclists-safe-urban-warfare-wheels) says:

Quote
I understand why people wish to use [helmets or hi-vis]. But these actions seek to deal with an effect. I want to focus the debate on the cause, and campaign for things that will really make cycling safe. That is why I won’t promote high-vis and helmets – I won’t let the debate be drawn on to a topic that isn’t even in the top 10 things that will really keep people who want to cycle safe.

He's talking about cycling; Voi e-scooters, with their 25km/h speed restriction, are slower and presumably therefore safer. One of the safest countries in the world for cycling is The Netherlands, where helmets and hi-viz are almost unheard of.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on June 08, 2021, 12:37:16 pm
Those on offer in 4 London Boroughs are limited to 15mph and require the hirer to have a car licence, not motorcycle licence.

I would suspect the car license is chosen because it's a commonly held license that requires you to know rules of the road and to have been passed as reasonably competent.  Fewer people hold motorcycle licenses, so to require one of those instead, though probably closer in skill needs to an e-scooter, would limit the market of possible renters.   I couldn't find stats for the numbers of licenses, but I did find a page telling me that motorcycle miles are about one hundredth of car miles.

My suggestion was that NO LICENCE should be required to operate an E-scooter of limited power and speed.
The reference to a motorcycle licence and to a safety helmet was ONLY WRT  to scooters or E-bikes of greater speed and power than would be permitted without a licence.

I can understand E-scooter hire companies wanting a driving licence, as proof of identity, that is up to them but a licence to operate ones own scooter seems a bit silly when no licence is needed for an E-bike.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on June 08, 2021, 04:11:25 pm
A study of 248 people injured in Berlin revealed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst riding scooters were admitted to hospital, 1 in 5 who came off were over the drink drive limit (of whom 31% sustained traumatic brain injuries), and only 1 in 100 were wearing a helmet.
The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory, there should be a minimum age limit of 18, a ban on alcohol no driving on pavements and strict adherence to traffic regulations.
Let's hope we take all that on board. Protecting one's brain is probably worth a little minor inconvenience.

A study by the BGGG* showed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst walking were admitted to hospital. And that 1 in 5 pedestrians who fell over had exceeded the drink drive limit. (31 % of whom suffered traumatic brain injuries) and that negligible numbers of pedestrians were wearing helmets.
The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory for walking, that persons under 18 should not walk unless under supervision, and that alcohol should be banned.
It was further concluded that a life preserver should be worn if walking within 100 meters of open water.

*Broad Gage Green Group, affiliated to the BBTB and the P and S group.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 08, 2021, 06:16:52 pm
A study of 248 people injured in Berlin revealed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst riding scooters were admitted to hospital, 1 in 5 who came off were over the drink drive limit (of whom 31% sustained traumatic brain injuries), and only 1 in 100 were wearing a helmet.
The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory, there should be a minimum age limit of 18, a ban on alcohol no driving on pavements and strict adherence to traffic regulations.
Let's hope we take all that on board. Protecting one's brain is probably worth a little minor inconvenience.

A study by the BGGG* showed that 1 in 4 of those injured whilst walking were admitted to hospital. And that 1 in 5 pedestrians who fell over had exceeded the drink drive limit. (31 % of whom suffered traumatic brain injuries) and that negligible numbers of pedestrians were wearing helmets.
The study concluded that helmets should be compulsory for walking, that persons under 18 should not walk unless under supervision, and that alcohol should be banned.
It was further concluded that a life preserver should be worn if walking within 100 meters of open water.

*Broad Gage Green Group, affiliated to the BBTB and the P and S group.

P & S.......Port & Stilton?

Sounds like the former was started earlier than usual today!


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on June 08, 2021, 06:19:50 pm
No port has been consumed, more of a winter drink in my view. This is the season for beer, and perhaps for a little gin.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on June 15, 2021, 09:12:49 am
I rather liked a remark on another forum about encouraging green transport choices.

"So, to not drive, I will have to pay to learn to drive a car and obtain a car licence, before I am allowed to ride a scooter"


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: froome on June 15, 2021, 02:42:30 pm
I rather liked a remark on another forum about encouraging green transport choices.

"So, to not drive, I will have to pay to learn to drive a car and obtain a car licence, before I am allowed to ride a scooter"

This was an issue I was going to raise, as it affects me amongst others. I don't have a driving licence as I have no wish to drive. I'm not actually that interested in hiring an e-scooter either, but the whole issue of driving licences being needed where some form of ID is required is a common problem for me, and I feel it is actually a form of discrimination.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Surrey 455 on June 15, 2021, 09:08:11 pm
I rather liked a remark on another forum about encouraging green transport choices.

"So, to not drive, I will have to pay to learn to drive a car and obtain a car licence, before I am allowed to ride a scooter"

Do you need a full licence or is a provisional sufficient?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: MVR S&T on June 15, 2021, 09:53:39 pm
Our Beryl bike scheme in Bournemouth, says: Provisional licences are accepted, however paper licences are not.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on June 16, 2021, 02:15:45 pm

This was an issue I was going to raise, as it affects me amongst others. I don't have a driving licence as I have no wish to drive. I'm not actually that interested in hiring an e-scooter either, but the whole issue of driving licences being needed where some form of ID is required is a common problem for me, and I feel it is actually a form of discrimination.

I suppose it is. You could use your passport, I would imagine.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: MVR S&T on June 16, 2021, 08:06:32 pm
I dont have a passport, then what? Some form of ID card, with your vaccination status on it....


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 16, 2021, 09:42:08 pm
I dont have a passport, then what? Some form of ID card, with your vaccination status on it....

Then walk?  :)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: MVR S&T on June 16, 2021, 09:50:27 pm
Walking is what I generally do now, and for some reason the Christchurh area of the Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole area for the Beryl bike scheme, does not allow the scooters anyway.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 17, 2021, 06:50:12 am
Walking is what I generally do now, and for some reason the Christchurh area of the Bournemouth, Christchurch and Poole area for the Beryl bike scheme, does not allow the scooters anyway.


Your walking is much safer as a result.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on June 21, 2021, 05:20:27 pm
I dont have a passport, then what? Some form of ID card, with your vaccination status on it....

You've got me there. I have a passport AND a driving licence, AND my vaccination status on the NHS app on my phone, tablet, PC and laptop. Copies of all of these are saved in the cloud, just in case. Good luck with resolving the issue, but there's no need to worry about me.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: eightf48544 on June 22, 2021, 04:22:15 pm
Saw one this am in Bourne End (Bucks). At least they were in the road but I don't think Bourne end is one of the trial zones!


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on June 22, 2021, 07:52:57 pm
Sadly, there has been another death of a rider, according to a number of reports, including MSN News (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsbirmingham/aspiring-rappers-tragic-death-in-e-scooter-crash-has-brought-people-together-says-mum/ar-AALh6nu?ocid=uxbndlbing). It wasn't a licenced scooter. Another person was critically injured after an accident on a licenced e-scooter yesterday in Newcastle, according to The Sun (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15342406/man-fighting-for-his-life-after-escooter-crash/).


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 23, 2021, 07:30:45 am
Sadly, there has been another death of a rider, according to a number of reports, including MSN News (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsbirmingham/aspiring-rappers-tragic-death-in-e-scooter-crash-has-brought-people-together-says-mum/ar-AALh6nu?ocid=uxbndlbing). It wasn't a licenced scooter. Another person was critically injured after an accident on a licenced e-scooter yesterday in Newcastle, according to The Sun (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15342406/man-fighting-for-his-life-after-escooter-crash/).

Shocking, but not surprising.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 23, 2021, 03:14:36 pm
Sadly, there has been another death of a rider, according to a number of reports, including MSN News (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newsbirmingham/aspiring-rappers-tragic-death-in-e-scooter-crash-has-brought-people-together-says-mum/ar-AALh6nu?ocid=uxbndlbing). It wasn't a licenced scooter. Another person was critically injured after an accident on a licenced e-scooter yesterday in Newcastle, according to The Sun (https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/15342406/man-fighting-for-his-life-after-escooter-crash/).

Shocking, but not surprising.

Without figures to tell us the rates of death and injury per 1000 km, we can't tell whether these figures are worse than other modes of transport or better.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on June 23, 2021, 04:57:35 pm

Without figures to tell us the rates of death and injury per 1000 km, we can't tell whether these figures are worse than other modes of transport or better.

Very true, which is why I reported it without comment. Not may people died in car accidents until there were a lot of cars, and the sample is too small to draw any sort of conclusion, which won't stop some people. It is more difficult by the presence of both licenced and unlicenced versions of the same vehicle.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on June 30, 2021, 02:44:45 pm
Quote
E-scooter rider risks losing driving licence after crashing while twice the alcohol limit
They now face losing their licence after being caught under the influence following the collision
An e-scooter rider was caught by police being twice the alcohol limit after a crash in Bristol

They now face losing their licence after being caught under the influence following the collision.

The crash happened on Wednesday (June 23).

Police issued a warning on social media in a tweet which said: "A reminder that you can be arrested for drink driving while using an electric scooter.

"This rider was involved in a road traffic collision on Weds evening in Bristol, blew 75 (legal limit 35) at the roadside and risks losing his licence for a year."

...continues (https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/e-scooter-rider-risks-losing-5586562)
Source: Bristol Live



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on June 30, 2021, 03:07:36 pm
This sounds overly strict to me.
As far as I know the rider of a cycle (including an electrically assisted type) is not liable to breathalyzer testing nor to loss of their car driving licence if found riding whilst drunk.

A drunken cycle rider CAN be prosecuted, but only if badly impaired through drink and NOT simply for being over the limit for driving a car.

IMHO scooter riding should be encouraged, and if riders wish to break their fool necks, that is up to them. Whilst there is some risk to other and sober road users these risks are arguably no worse than those presented by drunk pedestrians.
We allow drunk walking, unless so bad that arrest and prosecution for being drunk and disorderly is reasonable.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on June 30, 2021, 04:24:40 pm
And here's another moron....this one has been banned, so one less drunk on the roads.

https://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/news/plymouth-news/drink-driving-e-scooter-rider-5588105?utm_source=linkCopy&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=sharebar


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on June 30, 2021, 04:34:58 pm
Technically speaking, we don't allow drunk walking. It is an offence under, IIRC, Section 12 of the Licensing Act 1872 to be drunk in any road or public place. In practice, strict enforcement of this law would lead to at least half the population being jailed, including the police, judges and prison officers, so actually there would be legal justice system left. Law is anarchy!  :D

You can also lose your driving licence for any offence whatsoever, it doesn't have to be a driving offence. I can't remember what act that's from but it's 21st century.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on July 01, 2021, 05:43:57 pm
This sounds overly strict to me.
As far as I know the rider of a cycle (including an electrically assisted type) is not liable to breathalyzer testing nor to loss of their car driving licence if found riding whilst drunk.


It's a motor vehicle, so is subject to the same Road Traffic Act.

(This removes possibly the only reason why I would ever ride one)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on July 01, 2021, 06:47:13 pm
This sounds overly strict to me.
As far as I know the rider of a cycle (including an electrically assisted type) is not liable to breathalyzer testing nor to loss of their car driving licence if found riding whilst drunk.


It's a motor vehicle, so is subject to the same Road Traffic Act.

(This removes possibly the only reason why I would ever ride one)

And yet electrically assisted cycles do not seem to be regarded as motor vehicles.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: rogerw on July 01, 2021, 06:54:27 pm
Electrically assisted cycles require you to do some of the work by peddling. Electrically powered cycles are classed as motor vehicles as no human power input is used. There is a very significant difference. Escooters are solely powered by electricity and are thus motor vehicles in law.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on July 01, 2021, 09:19:06 pm

And yet electrically assisted cycles do not seem to be regarded as motor vehicles.

They aren't, because they're not.

I was in Bristol yesterday and today, and saw quite a lot of the scooters, including a fair few being used. I don't think I ever saw one of the previous yellow bikes being ridden, which suggests that the e-scooters have more potential, and are probably here to stay. All were being ridden responsibly, although mostly without helmet, with the exception of one being used by a young man who seems determined to save the country the price of a pension.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 08, 2021, 06:38:16 pm
The yellow bikes (Yo bikes was their brand name) were pretty popular when first introduced. Unlike the hire scooters, they were also used further afield; it wasn't unusual to see people riding them to Bath, for instance. This won't happen with the e-scooters because (at the moment at least) they are geofenced. However, people did love throwing the yellow bikes in the docks. It's actually a puzzle to me why this doesn't happen with the scooters too.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on July 08, 2021, 09:30:10 pm
Presumably they know whom hired each scooter and therefore whom threw it into the dock rather than returning it.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 09, 2021, 07:19:31 am
What is it with Bristolians and throwing things in docks?

Statues, bicycles.............now scooters?

Perhaps the fish should be issued with hard hats?  ;)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: froome on July 09, 2021, 07:48:03 am
What is it with Bristolians and throwing things in docks?

Statues, bicycles.............now scooters?

Perhaps the fish should be issued with hard hats?  ;)

Fish? In Bristol's docks? I think you are being a tad optimistic. Don't be fooled by the anglers lined up by the outfall, they're really just gnomes.  :D

Talking of throwing scooters around, soon after they were introduced here in Bath, I saw one man who was walking down a road where some were parked, and as he was passing he picked one up, raised it above his head, and then sent it crashing down onto the others. Must admit I couldn't believe it, as it was the middle of the day and plenty of people around. He then calmly continued walking past as if that was a perfectly reasonable action.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 09, 2021, 08:02:02 am
What is it with Bristolians and throwing things in docks?

Statues, bicycles.............now scooters?

Perhaps the fish should be issued with hard hats?  ;)

Fish? In Bristol's docks? I think you are being a tad optimistic. Don't be fooled by the anglers lined up by the outfall, they're really just gnomes.  :D

Talking of throwing scooters around, soon after they were introduced here in Bath, I saw one man who was walking down a road where some were parked, and as he was passing he picked one up, raised it above his head, and then sent it crashing down onto the others. Must admit I couldn't believe it, as it was the middle of the day and plenty of people around. He then calmly continued walking past as if that was a perfectly reasonable action.

............possibly the first recorded example of scooter rage?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on July 10, 2021, 11:34:57 am
Presumably they know whom hired each scooter and therefore whom threw it into the dock rather than returning it.

They aren't physically locked to anything after use. Who last hired it and who Colstoned it could very easily be two (or more) different people.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 10, 2021, 03:30:30 pm
Presumably they know whom hired each scooter and therefore whom threw it into the dock rather than returning it.

They aren't physically locked to anything after use. Who last hired it and who Colstoned it could very easily be two (or more) different people.
In addition, an app was also needed to hire the Yo bikes. They knew exactly who had last hired it, but not who threw it in the harbour. As TonyK says, it's a known hazard not just in Bristol that when things of this sort are not docked, they get docked.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: johnneyw on July 10, 2021, 07:16:35 pm
I've not been lurking round the docks recently enough to verify this but could it be that the E-scooter docking nodes are deliberately located a sufficient distance away from deep water in order to avoid being easily thrown in?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Marlburian on July 18, 2021, 04:58:27 pm
E-scooter robbery in Bracknell (https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/reading-berkshire-news/frightening-bracknell-robbery-sees-boys-21083815)

And apparently in a busy location.

(The value of some bicycles must make them a temptation to "highway robbers" who can identify an up-market model.)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on July 18, 2021, 08:09:19 pm
The risk of theft is in my view a major factor that discourages cycling and use of E-cycles.
When living in London I observed many probably stolen cycles being sold in the vicinity of the Brick lane Sunday market.
Sometimes the original owner of the cycle turned up and demanded it back. Their success depended on how many friends they had with them, and on what level of violence was used.
I never saw a policeman in the vicinity.



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on July 18, 2021, 09:06:04 pm
These things tend to go in waves. "Highway robbery" of bikes, and not necessarily high-end ones, does happen from time to time – in fact a friend of mine was a victim of it a few years ago (but recovered his bike through social media) – but it's certainly not a permanent worry. You might remember "carjacking" being a thing back in the 1990s.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Marlburian on July 19, 2021, 03:48:52 pm
Now a theft in Reading (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19452968.e-scooter-robbery-reading-leads-police-witness-appeal/)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TonyK on July 19, 2021, 07:03:21 pm
The worst yet, appearing in the Evening Standard (https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/newslondon/e-scooter-boy-16-e2-80-98killed-by-driver-on-wrong-side-of-road-e2-80-99-in-bromley/ar-AAMjzMy?ocid=uxbndlbing) via MSN:

Quote
E-scooter boy, 16, ‘killed by driver on wrong side of road’ in Bromley
John Dunne 

A teenage e-scooter rider was killed after being hit by a car travelling on the wrong side of the road at high speed, witnesses claimed on Monday.

The 16-year-old was thrown 30 yards down the street after the collision in Southborough Lane, Bromley, south London, at 1.20am on Sunday,

An off duty nurse tried to save his life but he died later in hospital. His e-scooter was stolen from the scene.
(Continues at source)
 
It is awful for the poor lad's family and friends. It also shows the lows that people will stoop to, when someone will stop to steal the dying boy's scooter. I read elsewhere that the driver of the car that hit him has apparently been arrested, and blew a positive alcohol test. The vehicle that stopped to take the scooter, which does not seem to be otherwise related to the incident, is being sought.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 20, 2021, 07:06:27 am
Blind and visually impaired groups calling for trials to be stopped.

https://news.sky.com/story/e-scooters-campaigners-for-blind-and-visually-impaired-groups-demand-an-end-to-city-trials-12359475


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on July 20, 2021, 09:34:46 pm
Another awful incident......."life changing" often means amputation. Wonder how long the trial will continue?


https://amp.lbc.co.uk/news/girl-3-life-changing-injuries-hit-e-scooter-south-london-lambeth/?__twitter_impression=true




Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: rogerw on July 21, 2021, 05:33:28 pm
No indication that this was a rental scooter. Just as likely to have been an illegally ridden private one. My sympathies go to the girl and her family.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on August 29, 2021, 09:44:25 pm
Hired E-scooters are about to become available in Minehead. One hopes that the standard of scooter riding will exceed the standard of car driving, which seems very low in Minehead.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on September 04, 2021, 11:46:13 am
One of the parking places for the new Minehead scooters is adjacent to the harbour and a busy pub, not perhaps the best choice. I foresee problems.



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Surrey 455 on September 12, 2021, 01:52:17 am
Shock headline news in Slough - An elderly gentleman has been filmed deliberately knocking the scooters only!

The Slough Observer is on the case.

https://www.sloughobserver.co.uk/news/19572517.e-scooters-pushed-elderly-man-walking-stick-slough/

I'm not entirely sure what qualifies as news these days but I suppose it makes a change from photos of angry residents pointing at things they don't like.  :)




Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Lee on September 12, 2021, 07:51:10 am
Shock headline news in Slough - An elderly gentleman has been filmed deliberately knocking the scooters only!

The Slough Observer is on the case.

https://www.sloughobserver.co.uk/news/19572517.e-scooters-pushed-elderly-man-walking-stick-slough/

I'm not entirely sure what qualifies as news these days but I suppose it makes a change from photos of angry residents pointing at things they don't like.  :)




I don't beleeeve it!


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on September 12, 2021, 09:56:00 am
Shock headline news in Slough - An elderly gentleman has been filmed deliberately knocking the scooters only!

As even, the real depth of public opinion on the story is exposed in the comments

Quote
This is so shocking I don't think I will ever be able to sleep ever again. What has the world come to, when someone can knock over an inanimate object, just because some inconsiderate person chooses to dump the scooter in the middle of the pavement, what kind of monster is he. This is the start of the breakdown of society, in 10 or 20 years we will have people stabbing and shooting each other indiscriminately. Thank you Observer for bringing this important shocking horrific incident to our attention. With such brilliant journalism hopefully we can save humanity.

Quote
There's a very well coordinated smear campaign against escooters going on across all UK media for at least a year now. Rarely do I see anyone praising this new form of pollution-free transport. The bias is so heavily against them that it seems the goal is to turn public opinion against them to prevent legislation being passed in favour of their use. And from the actions of this man and the earlier comments in this thread and others in many online articles it seems that are being successful. Ask yourself - who gets to benefit if escooters remain illegal and we are forced back into our cars for even the shortest journeys? Based on the news you've seen over the last year, would you say that you find yourself turning more and more against them even though you personally haven't had any negative experience with them that would have made you feel that way. There's an agenda here folks. The purpose of all these articles against escooters seems very much to be to control how you think about them. Is it working?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 12, 2021, 11:33:02 am
The second comment is thought-provoking. Events of the last few years show how a constant drip-feed of misinformation and biased reporting can, over time, persuade the majority of people to follow a path which only benefits a few vested interests.

But we can't pretend that the implementation of scooter schemes is perfect:

  • They get left in dangerous places;
  • Riders may be inconsiderate, drunk or on drugs;
  • Unqualified or underage people use them.

All these things are true of private motor cars, of course, but when cars are involved we tend to point the finger of blame at the driver rather than their mode of transport. Funny, that.

We ought to be able to do something about parking though. Isn't the right place to store these things on the road, in adapted car parking spaces? A car parking space could easily accommodate a dozen or so scooters without obstructing the pavement.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on September 12, 2021, 11:56:56 am
I largely agree with the second comment, regarding a hidden agenda against E scooters.

Not certain WHY this should be though ? They seem to tolerate electric cycles which are in many ways comparable. Why is a car licence required to operate an E scooter but not an E cycle ?

Anyone can purchase and use an E cycle, so why the restrictions on the E scooters ?


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 12, 2021, 12:09:04 pm
In Birmingham and I think also Liverpool, where Voi run the schemes, all the scooter parking is now in docks. Although these are placed on the pavement rather than on the road carriageway, it does mean they don't block the pavements. It's especially helpful for the blind and wheelchair users, but for everyone really. The scheme in Bristol is also run by Voi but for some reason we don't have docked parking yet. One disadvantage of the docked parking is that it limits the usefulness of the scooters – they become only dock to dock, not door to door – but this is already the case in Bristol as they are geofenced; just that the geofencing isn't as precise or as neat as a physical dock.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: IndustryInsider on September 12, 2021, 01:31:11 pm
I largely agree with the second comment, regarding a hidden agenda against E scooters.

Not certain WHY this should be though ? They seem to tolerate electric cycles which are in many ways comparable. Why is a car licence required to operate an E scooter but not an E cycle ?

Anyone can purchase and use an E cycle, so why the restrictions on the E scooters ?

This was answered last time you asked the same question:

Electrically assisted cycles require you to do some of the work by peddling. Electrically powered cycles are classed as motor vehicles as no human power input is used. There is a very significant difference. Escooters are solely powered by electricity and are thus motor vehicles in law.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: broadgage on September 12, 2021, 01:50:10 pm
But ARE E scooters propelled solely by electric power ? The ones that I have seen are also propelled by the rider applying one foot to the ground and pushing backwards as with a non powered scooter.

Many electrical assisted cycles can be moved by electricity alone without use of the pedals. AFAIK this design is legal subject to a limit on maximum speed under power.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 12, 2021, 02:22:00 pm
But ARE E scooters propelled solely by electric power ?

Yes.

You push with your foot to get it going, but after that speed is controlled by buttons on the handlebars. With (legal) e-bikes, on the other hand, their speed is related to the speed at which you pedal.

This may seem to some extent a nice distinction, but it actually makes quite a difference.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 12, 2021, 09:33:30 pm
Many electrical assisted cycles can be moved by electricity alone without use of the pedals. AFAIK this design is legal subject to a limit on maximum speed under power.
Not usually. AFAIK this was legal up to a certain speed under older regulations but not on anything newer.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 12, 2021, 09:39:48 pm
Today I was stewarding at a street party. My tasks basically consisted of moving a barrier for vehicles which had a legitimate reason for access and telling others why they couldn't come in, etc. Without exception, every single e-scooter followed the diversion signs without needing to be told, apart from one or two which were actually coming to the party (there is a designated parking spot in the street party area) and they got off and pushed. The reports you read in some places would give you a very different expectation.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: CyclingSid on September 16, 2021, 12:11:47 pm
Regrettably not all are as well-behaved as your visitors https://road.cc/content/news/police-seek-e-scooter-rider-after-cyclist-seriously-injured-286357 (https://road.cc/content/news/police-seek-e-scooter-rider-after-cyclist-seriously-injured-286357)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on September 27, 2021, 06:28:49 pm
Very moving account, just been shown on the BBC, making the argument for helmets to be made compulsory.


BBC News - Shakur Pinnock e-scooter death: 'His sacrifices will save a lot of people'
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-58711393


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Celestial on September 27, 2021, 06:54:42 pm
A tragic and unnecessary death.

In addition to the lack of helmets, the couple were riding an unauthorised scooter on the road, and were both riding the one scooter.  (By being unauthorised, there was no opportunity for the hire company to ensure that they were aware of the risks, ways to mitigate them (ie do's and don'ts), and that they were licensed to ride them.)

So unfortunately they did stack the odds against themselves, in more ways than not wearing helmets, and paid a very heavy price for doing so. My impression is that there isn't enough awareness that you can't take a privately owned E-scooter on the highway (I've never seen it publicised) so somehow I doubt this will be last such incident resulting in a tragic loss of life.



Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Marlburian on September 27, 2021, 07:32:48 pm
I am being disingenuous in suggesting that vendors of e-scooters warn that it should only be used on private land. Shops stocking them do claim to do so when interviewed by the media.


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: Marlburian on November 05, 2021, 09:02:44 am
E-scooters injuries in Berkshire revealed in new figures (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19694893.e-scooters-injuries-berkshire-revealed-new-figures/)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: grahame on November 05, 2021, 09:21:49 am
E-scooters injuries in Berkshire revealed in new figures (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19694893.e-scooters-injuries-berkshire-revealed-new-figures/)

Quote
South Central Ambulance Service provided information of the 43 reports following a freedom of information request submitted by the Bracknell News.

To give an idea of how significant that figure of 43 is, did they ask for the number of reports of accidents involving pedestrians and cars during that same period (however long it was?)


Title: Re: E-scooter trials - but rental only. What do members think?
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 05, 2021, 09:27:02 am
E-scooters injuries in Berkshire revealed in new figures (https://www.readingchronicle.co.uk/news/19694893.e-scooters-injuries-berkshire-revealed-new-figures/)

Quote
South Central Ambulance Service provided information of the 43 reports following a freedom of information request submitted by the Bracknell News.

To give an idea of how significant that figure of 43 is, did they ask for the number of reports of accidents involving pedestrians and cars during that same period (however long it was?)

Whataboutery.



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