Great Western Coffee Shop

The Night Riviera could be a fantastic service if it was properly supported. The current locomotives for it aren't the best, even though they we're overhauled in 2016 they are back to being problematic again  ???  The current Mk3s still have slam doors and are against official regulation.

I get the impression that the rolling stock won't be changed and in 5 or 10 years time they'll make out the rolling stock is too old, the service doesn't make money and that IET's are able to provide faster journey's, we'll then get proposals for a later evening Penzance departure and an earlier service than the 05:05 Golden Hind.

Is an IET body shell so radically different from a Mk3 than you couldn’t equip an IET with those airline First Class seats that  become beds with the privacy walls (sorry, don’t know how to describe them but you see them on the adverts):::?

I've wondered why flat beds aren't used too, but I think safety precludes them from being used facing along the carriage due to the pressure on the neck in the event of a collision if lying down.

Perhaps Serco will have some spare stock when Mrs Krankie combines Lowlander/Highlander when she runs out of money ?   :D

The merit of the sleeper is the provision of a proper flat bed in a private room. In which one may change in privacy and sleep in proper bedding.

Any improvisations involving airline seats that sort of convert into not a proper flat bed, would be a significant downgrade. And experiences of both GWR and new rolling stock suggest a lot of extra things to go wrong. Seat wont fold into ersatz bed. Fake bed wont change back into a seat. Gets stuck part way. Privacy screen drops off or gets stuck. GWR forget to supply pillows and blankets. Bookings don't work, or get transferred to a different service. Hitachi sends wrong train.
Train cancelled from Plymouth as wont couple to the other portion.

The old couchettes on European sleeper trains used to go down well with the great unwashed InterRailer’s I remember.

I was lucky enough to fly Emirates Business Class in a "bed" and both the experience and the service received throughout were something the railways could probably only dream of.

It would be interesting to see the two go "head to head" for quality.

Give it a try Broadgage, you may surprise yourself - they even have Port on aircraft these days!  ;)

The Australians run this sort of "sleeper". Seat 61 has the details https://www.seat61.com/Australia.htm#Brisbane-Townsville-Cairns.
I cant see the Cornish liking that sort of thing. Cornwall and Isles of Scilly LEP will continue to give strong support for the status quo.

Those flatbeds look excellent. I'd happily have an overnight journey in them. Indeed, if it wasn't for the minor health issue that seems to be troubling everyone at the moment I'd be tempted to book my flatbed out there to try out the flatbed.  Hoping to do The Overland too before it disappears forever, though I think that might be touch and go by the time we can all travel again.

I would be reluctant to fly, due to concerns about climate change, even if enticed by Port.
I am also VERY doubtful about improvised sleeping arrangements, and try to avoid folding beds, air beds, camp beds, sofa beds, and any bed that converts from something else.
Folding beds=risk of collapse
Air beds=burst or leak.
Camp beds=risk of the canvas ripping and dumping me on the ground.

......perhaps they'll install a four poster for you?

Perhaps the next generation of night sleeper accommodation for the Night Riviera could include a halfway house between the seating and sleeping berths, with couchette style seats - a modern variant of the ones that were once commonplace on night trains in Europe?

Priced accordingly to appeal to a different market to those that want something on a premium level, but don’t fancy slumming it in the seats.

I would certainly suggest Mk V coaches (like the Caledonian Sleeper has) with a Class 68/88 combination.  The Class 88 working on electric under the wires and the Class 68 on the diesel bits.  Should the 68 fail then you have the Diesel engine on the Class 88 to at least get the train to the next station.

Would the sums work out though?  We’re looking several years into the future minimum though, and who knows what lasting impact the current situation will have.

Couchettes did create a totally flat bed. And although there was no privacy strictly speaking, you were usually in a compartment with from 3 to 5 others of your choosing. And, in relation to Celestial's point about safety, they were aligned laterally, across the direction of travel. Sometimes there was even an attendant serving tea and coffee...

Possibly a bit of a radical concept for the railways, but why not survey current customers/users of the sleeper & find out what they'd suggest, and also target the sort of demographic who may consider it in the future & ask the same question, as well as what may put them off the option?

Feedback is a gift if you listen to it.

Good ideas, though perhaps a Broadgage style survey has already been done?  If the result of that doesn't lead to the Night Riviera being axed completely, perhaps it's best to wait until GWR have actually committed to replacing the current fleet.  You know, manage expectations and all that.  ;)

Yes, existing (or at present recent) passengers should be surveyed / listened to absolutely - but that's just one element.  Very important too - but difficult - to survey those who could have used the sleeper but have not done so.  What have they done instead?  What put them off?  Did they know what the sleeper offered?

There is also, perhaps, a lot to learn from the aircraft industry.  Where ... the "red-eye" in one direction is matched by a re-use of the same plane in the opposite direction for a daytime service.   And perhaps a lot to be learned from history and really long distance trains across continents that convert back and forth.

I ... amused myself .... 2 trains running ....
PAD - PNZ 23:30 - 08:00
PNZ - ABN 10:30 - 18:30
ABN - PNZ 22:00 - 08:00
PNZ - PAD 10:00 - 17:00

and 2 trains running ....
PAD - PNZ 11:00 - 18:00
PNZ - ABN 21:00 - 07:00
ABN - PNZ 10:30 - 18:30
PNZ - PAD 21:00 - 06:00

Daytime trains being long distance, very comfortable, well catered (not sure if there would be Port and Stilton, mind)  and NOT taking intermediate traffic.

PAD also picking up / dropping off RDG
PNZ services for London not making any passenger stops between Reading and Newton Abbot
PNZ services for Aberdeen not making any passenger stops north of Bristol Parkway
Aberdeen services connections for Glasgow / Edinburgh at Stirling ... the stations to Aberdeen.

Very "Crayonista" ... looking at other London services all from the same base.  And, yes, I have used the sleeper and could give personal practical comment.

I think a Journey time of 8 hours from Penzance to Aberdeen would be Very interesting that leaves about 6 1/4 hours from Plymouth to Aberdeen.  ;D ;D :o :o

But GWR should be able to make better use of the Sleeper Train locos

Like I say, very "crayonist" ... sharpening my crayons ... 5.5 hours (day) PAD - PNZ; 11 hours (night) PNZ - ABN; 9.5 hours (day) ABN - PNZ; 8.0 hours (night) PNZ - PAD - total running time - 34 hours out of 48, allowing 3.5 hours for servicing between each run. Class 808 trains - 8 car bimode IETs, running electric London - Newbury and Bromsgrove - Falkirk via the West Coast. Extra overnight time allows for some engineering diversions, etc, and for mot dumping people off too early or having them wait to join too late.  The relatively quick London runs and the switching of trains between the two routes allow the long distance journey round trip to exceed the 24 hours, eating into what would be slack time for the daily London return trip.

In order that they may fail and block the line during the day as well as at night ?
They struggle to make it between London and Cornwall despite very relaxed timings.

I do wonder whether a West Country to Scotland sleeper would be better terminating at a central destination (such as Dunblane, with a call at Motherwell) that could provide relatively fast and direct onward connections to most destinations. That would avoid having to choose one region over another, and would reduce overall journey time for the stock.  There would be a guarantee of connections, particularly for evening departures from specific stations such as Inverness and Aberdeen.

(I've no idea whether Dunblane could be easily configured for such a service, but it's the concept rather than the specific station that is important).

Google tells me Penzance to Aberdeen is 505 miles, so in 8 hours is an average 63.125 mph.

That's as the crow flies

Its 719 miles by the shortest rail route

719 miles, suggests a 12 hour journey at an average of 60MPH, allowing for both slower bits and for a bit of slack.
If the customers wish to spend 8 or 9 hours sleeping, then that suggests the need for one or more decent bar/buffet/restaurant/lounge vehicles in which to spend the other 3 or 4 hours.

From where is the demand for a Penzance-Aberdeen sleeper service likely to come?

Are there that many Cornish oil rig workers?
 
At what market would it be aimed or is it just whimsy?

Passenger journeys from people joining the rail network at Penzance and leaving it at Aberdeen will be minimal. But then passenger journeys from joining the network at Cardiff Central and leaving it at Portsmouth Harbour are also minimal. 

Look to staycation and leisure traffic returning from Newquay and Falmouth, Torbay and Exmouth (and Butlins at Minehead by bus) and Weston-super-mare, Barry and Severn Beach returning home to Glasgow, Edinburgh, Aberdeen, Dundee, Inverness ... Motherwell, Paisley, Livingston, East Kilbride, Perth, Dumbarton.  Look at the leisure and staycation traffic from Truro, Plymouth and Exeter, Bristol and Cheltenham Spa ... Bath, Cardiff, Newport, Gloucester and Worcester, headed for a week or weekend away Doon the Watter, in the Highlands, out to the West Coast at Oban, Mallaig or Kyle of Lochalsh, city centres Stirling, Glasgow, Edinburgh, golfing at Turnberry, St Andrews, Gleneagles, North Berwick, Barry Links or Carnoustie.  Coach tours with train transit for the long distance stuff.  Cruises in to Avonmouth or out from Rosyth.

Look to business traffic where cost, speed and convenience has drive people off trains onto flights from Exeter, Bristol and Cardiff airports to Glasgow, Edinburgh and Aberdeen, often followed by a night in a hotel prior to a meeting.  There is traffic to regained as we move to trains being more acceptable / greener, when pricing models get changed, and when space and facilities mean that travel time is spent not just getting a good nights sleep but a good working and relaxing connected setup too.

Remember we're looking at not one but two services a day - every 12 hours not every 24 - and much will be outbound overnight and back during the day, or vice versa.  We're looking at a marketed / promoted service, and not something that's accidentally almost there for historic reasons and arranged largely for the medium rather than long distance traffic.  We're looking at a root and branch service - a Christmas tree is not just about the fairy on the top, but also about the pretty lights and chocolates hanging from the branches, the baubles and trinkets, the tinsel and branches and the presents around its base.

Yes, whimsy - I have no figures for you.  But I suspect some of our other posters might tune a wild seed into a more cultivated product.  I'm already noting a potential change of destination of the main train ... looking at Stirling with numerous platforms where the service could usefully start / end, sitting so people can join / leave in really good time and with direct service onward / inward from so many of the key final destinations and starter points.

I would expect considerable holiday traffic between Scotland and the Southwest. It is further than many people wish to drive, and is a very tedious journey by daytime train.
A growing minority are avoiding air travel for environmental reasons.

That suggests a demand for sleeper trains. 12 hours spent on a daytime train is regarded as 12 hours of ones holiday wasted. A 12 hour journey on a sleeper service compares well to a night in a hotel and a few hours flying.

In BR days there were lots of overnight trains from the NE/Scotland to the SW for summer holiday traffic. Even though they were seated trains, my memory of them was that they were quite popular, especially the direct Newquay services.

I spent many a Friday night enjoying a few beers before boarding a train at Derby and heading to a cornish seaside town for the day.

Going back many years, I paid off ship in Newcastle and caught the overnight train to Penzance

I have a vague recollection from my youth that use to happen at Stirling. I know there was the Motorail service for a few years and my father use to get the sleeper to London a lot although he may have changed at Edinburgh. It does seem a good spot though with other rail links, M80 and the bus station just down the road.

Edit to clarify quoting

As an example to how many overnighters there used to be during the peak season, here's Summer 1982
Friday night - Southbound
1931 York - Penzance arr 0543
2131 Nottingham - Newquay arr 0658
2137 Man Picc - Newquay arr 0635
2239 Man Picc - Penzance arr 0826
2306 Sheffield - Paignton arr 0556
2042 Newcastle - Newquay arr 0849
2355 Liverpool - Penzance arr 0925
2110 Glasgow - Paignton arr 0716
2212 Newcastle - Paignton arr 0735
2320 Bradford - Paignton arr 0750

Plus
2357 Paddington - Penzance arr 0807 (seats only)
2359 Paddington - Penzance arr 0748 (sleeper)

I do remember in some years the seated overnighter from London went to Newquay rather than Penzance.

I feel only a very small proportion of travellers from a line below the M4 (say) to Scotland, would travel by sleeper. Business travellers would be looking probably for a day return (only possible by plane, and cheaper) or travel up in the evening before, stay in a hotel (with showers and a good breakfast) and be ready to start meetings etc.

Not a sleeper service, but for comparison, a few years ago at work I looked at alternatives from Melksham to Durham. Renting a car to get me to Bristol airport and back, another to get me from Newcastle airport to the meeting, and a return airfare, worked out significantly cheaper than rental car/hotel or std train/hotel. The comparison would be worse for a sleeper as a single berth would necessitate first class.

For leisure travel, a late start back by sleeper would mean hanging around to get on the train (outbound perhaps easier if starting from home but that would need someone to provide a lift to the station). Generally not easy to period park at a station as woudl be the case for air travel.

A modern sleeper train should be able to provide showers and a decent breakfast.
Showers don't use that much water, and IMHO used shower water could be dumped, unlike toilet waste.
Alternatively, used shower water could be used to flush the WC, thereby reducing the total tank capacity required.

And as for breakfast, the present mood on the railway is against catering, but that might change.

I fully agree with you, If an A380 can have a shower on board I don't see why a modern sleep can't.

Of course the MK V's used on the Caledonian Sleeper cars do have showers, and I'm sure any replacement to the not-very-modern-any-more MK III's will have them installed, but probably not cost effective to adapt them now.

The only way that I can see to re use much of the exiting stock AND provide showers would to build a small number of new vehicles with four showers, two at each end.
Place these new vehicles between two existing sleepers such that each berth is near a shower. Use the rest of the space in this coach to provide a few luxury first class cabins with en-suite showers.

Why bother though? I can't think of any train company buying 4 new Mark 5 just have showers on board it's not financially viable.

Yes either you have entirely new sleeper stock or you stay as you are.  I don't see logic for mix and match.  Of course new locos to improve reliability would be useful and if it decreases maintenance might stack up from a financial point of view as well. 

I don't think there would be much demand from Night Riviera passengers. You can already get a shower at Paddington.

..and Truro & Penzance (in normal times)

I partly agree, the only merit of my suggestion was reduced capital cost if compared to an all new fleet.

Having an all new fleet would be cheaper overall, easier maintenance, halving the required spare parts etc. The Mk3s are good but their age is begining to show, even the Castle sets won't last more than 10-12 years. Besides do we really want late 1970s/early 80s rolling stock still in mainline service in 2032?

I agree that showers etc are probably better at terminal stations. But there is no substitute for an ensuite hotel room available all evening. I can't see sleepers attracting more than a small percentage of the traffic on a core route, the alternative of evening flight (or daytime train) with a hotel at the end, is so much easier and probably cheaper. There are of course non-drivers who don't like flying who might prefer the sleeper.

Im sorry I don't agree with you. Demand for the Night Riviera is high. Often you cant get a berth. Cornish people with business in London find it a much cheaper alternative than either peak early morning trains or going up the night before and spending ?100 plus on a London hotel room. Business demand is high too. Cornwall and Isles of Scilly Local Enterprise Partnership have invested heavily in the sleeper  revamp and in new lounges and have done this because it is what businesses want. A few years ago when FGW suggested scrapping the sleeper there was a huge response in favour of keeping it.