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All across the Great Western territory => Looking forward - after Coronavirus to 2045 => Topic started by: bradshaw on September 10, 2020, 14:55:51



Title: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: bradshaw on September 10, 2020, 14:55:51
This is due soon and Phil Haigh has put on Twitter the map produced by Network Rail showing its proposals for the National Network.

https://twitter.com/philatrail/status/1304041945170210817?s=21

Edit 14.57 Report now available Online

https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Traction-Decarbonisation-Network-Strategy-Interim-Programme-Business-Case.pdf


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: grahame on September 10, 2020, 17:11:00
A very long and interesting read.   I have ordered some midnight oil.    Figure 14, and I have skewed the colours to help differntiate core and ancillary electrification.

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/deco_south.jpg)

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/deco_key.jpg)



Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 10, 2020, 17:18:03
Diagram on P199 and subsequent table clarifies...


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: Rhydgaled on September 10, 2020, 17:46:56
Any timescales? I'm particularly interested in Wales & Borders routes, great to see most of the nation in green but how long are we expected to wait for, say, Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury* electrification?

* I know this isn't in Wales, but it's a fairly important route for the Wales & Borders franchise.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: eightonedee on September 10, 2020, 21:33:48
Having skimmed through this two things stand out-

1  - The pictogram on page 74 - anything other than "proper" electrification is second best/a poor alternative
2  - Third rail may not be dead yet - see pages 228-230.

And a new campaign slogan - "Pathway 4 now!"


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: grahame on September 12, 2020, 20:15:05
I  have posted on Facebook as follows and kicked a can of worms. https://www.facebook.com/graham.ellis.5055/posts/10158615006212094

Quote
Electrification of the railway through Melksham?  The suggestion made a decade ago would have been laughed out of court, but now Network Rail (the folks who would have been doing the laughing) are proposing it as part of their plans for a zero carbon railway by 2050.  Their "Traction Decarbonisation Network Strategy suggests core routes to be electrified first, ancillary routes which logically follow on, and a finally other routes running in Hydrogen or batteries.  Melksham comes in the first group - a core route with electrification following on from the Great Western Electrification which has nearly reached Chippenham to Bristol, Taunton and Exeter, from Newbury via Westbury to Taunton, and from Westbury to both Bath and Chippenham.

Network Rail explain:

PASSENGERS: As well as a regional commuter service this route also acts as a diversionary route for long-distance high-speed Great Western Railway services between London and the South West and Bristol.  The West of England Combined Authority is developing the Metrowest proposals which will entail significant service enhancements for Greater Bristol, including Bristol-Bath-Westbury services which could exploit the future electrification of this route. Enhancements to the regional service are also proposed.

FREIGHT: Aggregate traffic from the quarries can utilise this route to gain access to the Great Western mainline. These trains are some of the heaviest on the network. This route can also act as a diversionary route for freight traffic from Southampton destined for the West Midlands.

A long term project - not next year or probably even this decade - but certainly not beyond the bounds of probability, and even before the main line on from Exeter to Paignton, Plymouth and Penzance.  It would bring faster journey times, cleaner and less noisy services too. And it would be a logical encouragement towards more trains too.  With the Southampton line electrified too (in the core route group), expect to see Melksham served by a regional electric train from the Solent area, via Salisbury and Trowbridge and onwards to Swindon, Oxford, and perhaps Milton Keynes and Bedford.

You may tell me I am dreaming.  But then you told me that I was dreaming when I asked for an all day, every day service a decade ago. And we have that now.  The difference is that last time everyone thought I had a crazy idea, but this time they're the ones coming up with the idea.   See pages 199 and 200 of Network Rail's report at https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/Traction-Decarbonisation-Network-Strategy-Interim-Programme-Business-Case.pdf , discussion at http://www.passenger.chat/24005 .

In answer ...

* It is part of an ongoing / rolling program and not instead of extending from Chippenham to Bath and Bristol

* The railways need to think well ahead ... road investment is worked out over 60 years - even longer - and what's done and planned today needs to last into the latter half of this century to make economic sense

* This planning is not being done in place of shorter term stuff.   Things are parallel not serial.

* Who told you Melksham is sleepy? 




Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 12, 2020, 22:23:22
With thanks to bradshaw for drawing this to my attention, I have posted on the FoSBR website too. My take is that we now need to persuade WECA to convince the powers that be that the Bristol area is 'low-hanging fruit'...

https://fosbr.org.uk/decarbonisation/


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: TonyK on September 13, 2020, 00:10:06
A very long and interesting read.   I have ordered some midnight oil.   

I ordered some midnight hydrogen instead, which should be with me by 2060. So I used oil instead.

It is very interesting, and probably the first solid indication of the move from diesel. I remain a little sceptical about battery and hydrogen being added to the mix of technologies, but having read this, I can see the reasoning behind the choice on each route.

25 kV OHLE will be the base, and I would imagine that the major routes with electric at both ends would be the priority. This would mean finishing the job between Thingley Junction and Bristol, and Temple Mead to not only Parkway, but to Birmingham. That would knock other schemes down the order, and Severn Beach would have to wait, despite being, as RS points out, the low hanging fruit.

Then I got to page 242, where the recognition of the potential for a government change of mind gets a mention. It is shown as only a medium risk, which I think is a little charitable.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: bradshaw on September 13, 2020, 08:31:25
Longer term it might make sense to do Southampton to Reading via Salisbury for the freight traffic at 25kv, then to Salisbury and infill Romsey to Bathampton also at 25kv.

Longer term might be Salisbury to Exeter at 25kv, determined by use as diversion route. If so, it would seem sensible to add Yeovil Jn to Castle Cary for the same reason.

However see attached image from this month?s Railway Magazine!


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: Electric train on September 13, 2020, 09:16:10
Although this is a very large document that has been published; it actually only represents a proportion of the feasibility work going on.

One of the challenges is to ensure that the move to renewable / sustainable has an equal or better "green footprint" in terms of its whole life compared to the current hydrocarbon based systems.

The rare earth metals for example used in batteries the impact that has on the extracting and processing and ultimate recycle / disposal.  The whole life environmental cost of GWEP is been studied for example.  All these issues need some understanding in comparison to current technology; or we may leave future generations with the Nuclear Power Station decommissioning type problems ie great while it working but now how do we get rid of it!

I am a great advocate of electrification over fossil fuel powered traction, always have been in my 40 + year railway career, i believe traction units should have an onboard energy source to a) infill where there is no electrification, b) when the electrification is deenergised, c) depot movements.  This can be achieved by on train batteries utilising energy capture from re-gen braking, this would also act as a pump - storage system for station starts etc


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: Red Squirrel on September 13, 2020, 12:05:10

...

25 kV OHLE will be the base, and I would imagine that the major routes with electric at both ends would be the priority. This would mean finishing the job between Thingley Junction and Bristol, and Temple Mead to not only Parkway, but to Birmingham. That would knock other schemes down the order, and Severn Beach would have to wait, despite being, as RS points out, the low hanging fruit.


To be clear, it's the unfinished bit from Chippenham - Temple Meads - Parkway that I was referring to as low-hanging fruit. I can see that including the Birmingham route would make sense.

I understand the ambivalence about the Severn Beach line, though given that the report errs towards 25kV rather than battery it might make sense to cover the Severnside lines (and possibly Portishead?) as part of the same project. Presumably that would work out cheaper than making passive provision and then coming back years later. A push from WECA might help.


...

The rare earth metals for example used in batteries the impact that has on the extracting and processing and ultimate recycle / disposal.  The whole life environmental cost of GWEP is been studied for example.  All these issues need some understanding in comparison to current technology; or we may leave future generations with the Nuclear Power Station decommissioning type problems ie great while it working but now how do we get rid of it!


Li-ion batteries are recyclable (https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28), but a lot of work needs to be done to make this normal and avoid them ending up in landfill. We have to hope that as the automotive sector ramps up its use of these batteries, the economics of recycling will improve.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: ellendune on September 13, 2020, 12:48:38
I am aware that there is ongoing development on an Aluminium Ion battery (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium-ion_battery) as am alternative to the Lithium Ion battery which IIUI still needs Manganese and some Lithium. 

In my opinion the increased demand for batteries and the resource shortage is likely to spur development of those and other alternatives to the Lithium-Ion battery.  However as in all these things success is not guaranteed. 


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: eightonedee on September 13, 2020, 22:22:43
Quote
However see attached image from this month?s Railway Magazine!

I think only Melksham has been achieved - we need more Grahames!

I also see that Railway Magazine's sub editor is more familiar with the works of Noel Coward than the towns of the Northumberland coast........


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: Bmblbzzz on September 15, 2020, 15:35:34
Am I imagining that I remember NR announcing a year or so back a long-term plan to end all diesel operation by 2040? Or it could have been 2050.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: ellendune on September 15, 2020, 20:44:14
Quote
However see attached image from this month?s Railway Magazine!

I think only Melksham has been achieved - we need more Grahames!

I also see that Railway Magazine's sub editor is more familiar with the works of Noel Coward than the towns of the Northumberland coast........

But I though Melksham Station reopened in 1985.  That article was in 2000 before the services were cut in 2006?


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: grahame on September 16, 2020, 05:37:38
Quote
However see attached image from this month?s Railway Magazine!

I think only Melksham has been achieved - we need more Grahames!

I also see that Railway Magazine's sub editor is more familiar with the works of Noel Coward than the towns of the Northumberland coast........

But I though Melksham Station reopened in 1985.  That article was in 2000 before the services were cut in 2006?

You are correct ... reopened in 1985; a couple of shortlived experiments, but in 2000 the service was very slim indeed.  Wessex Trains brought in extras - up to 5 each way per day in 2001 but the Greater Western franchise adding in Thames Trains and Wessex Trains areas into the First Great Western reduced that - SRA / DfT at that point only called for a much reduced service from that level, as it did on many other lines.



Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: Western Pathfinder on September 17, 2020, 13:30:51
This just released from NR
https://www.networkrail.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/New-parkway-stations-guidance.pdf.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: grahame on March 23, 2021, 12:32:25
From the Transport Committee

 (https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/153/transport-committee/news/152995/transport-committee-to-hit-its-own-decarbonisation-deadline-government-must-set-out-clear-strategy-for-rail-network/)
Quote
Transport Committee: To hit its own decarbonisation deadline, Government must set out clear strategy for rail network

A 30 year rolling programme of electrification should be set out

As a matter of priority, the Government should publish a long-term strategy that sets out its vision for electrification and for the use of battery and hydrogen technology that is underpinned by appropriate costings, a credible delivery plan and enabling targets and milestones.

As part of its strategy, the DfT should commit to a 30-year rolling programme of electrification projects. If the Government is to meet the legally binding target of net zero carbon emissions by 2050, and a former Minister’s pledge to remove all diesel trains from tracks by 2040, the current Government must take the first steps and start the electrification programme as soon as possible rather than waiting for the start of the next control period in 2024.

Full report (as a series of .html pages not a single .pdf document!) via https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5801/cmselect/cmtrans/876/87602.htm


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: stuving on March 23, 2021, 15:36:02
Full report (as a series of .html pages not a single .pdf document!) via https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5801/cmselect/cmtrans/876/87602.htm

... and the PDF here (https://committees.parliament.uk/publications/5179/documents/52006/default/).


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: TonyK on March 24, 2021, 00:02:54
From the Transport Committee

 (https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/153/transport-committee/news/152995/transport-committee-to-hit-its-own-decarbonisation-deadline-government-must-set-out-clear-strategy-for-rail-network/)
Quote
Transport Committee: To hit its own decarbonisation deadline, Government must set out clear strategy for rail network

A 30 year rolling programme of electrification should be set out



A 30 year rolling programme would see through six governments, as a minimum. The previous Theresa May government (I think it was her's) set out plans to stop building fossil fuel cars more quickly than that, and the current regime is abolishing gas boilers in new houses almost tomorrow. The electric car commitment isn't backed up by increased generation of electricity, and it remains to be seen how that time-scale will look in a few years' time. I would have thought that a plan to electrify the two thirds of the railway that doesn't have wires right now within 30 years was far more achievable, notwithstanding the Great Western debacle. It would tick a box, and give successive governments a clear target. And if it is announced, but not met, I'm sure a scapegoat can be found.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: stuving on October 06, 2022, 12:55:21
No doubt this could go on several threads, but here looks a good start. A public-spirited soul - JacobWrenn on railforums - has used FoI to get a copy of Network Rail's "Southern Region Decarbonisation Strategy" (dated August 2022). He's made it available to read on line here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_M53lvCyjXWxTTtNQRX4svt4f0oHH7Vi/view?usp=drivesdk), but you can download the PDF from there too.

It contains loads of gems about the North Downs Line, Reading-Basingstoke, and the WoEL. Here's a comedy item to start with - a "Key Fact" about the North Downs Line:
Quote
Rolling stock (Dec-19):
* GWR: Class 16X with phased introduction of Class 769s underway.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: grahame on October 06, 2022, 14:41:43
No doubt this could go on several threads, but here looks a good start. A public-spirited soul - JacobWrenn on railforums - has used FoI to get a copy of Network Rail's "Southern Region Decarbonisation Strategy" (dated August 2022). He's made it available to read on line here (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1_M53lvCyjXWxTTtNQRX4svt4f0oHH7Vi/view?usp=drivesdk), but you can download the PDF from there too.

I have echoed it here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/SouthernRegionTractionDecarbinsationStrategy_redacted.pdf) on our mirror too.   Sadly the document is locked so it's not searchable.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: stuving on October 06, 2022, 15:55:16
I have echoed it here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/SouthernRegionTractionDecarbinsationStrategy_redacted.pdf) on our mirror too.   Sadly the document is locked so it's not searchable.

I'm not sure about locked - it claims content copying is allowed, but I got that to work on the phoito credits and on nothing else. I presume that the content was prepared as images and there is no text embedded at all, hence nothing to copy or search.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: grahame on October 06, 2022, 17:21:39
I have echoed it here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/SouthernRegionTractionDecarbinsationStrategy_redacted.pdf) on our mirror too.   Sadly the document is locked so it's not searchable.

I'm not sure about locked - it claims content copying is allowed, but I got that to work on the phoito credits and on nothing else. I presume that the content was prepared as images and there is no text embedded at all, hence nothing to copy or search.

I have got some text out with screen captures and OCR software ... how sad am I?


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: stuving on October 06, 2022, 19:15:06
I have echoed it here (http://www.firstgreatwestern.info/SouthernRegionTractionDecarbinsationStrategy_redacted.pdf) on our mirror too.   Sadly the document is locked so it's not searchable.

I'm not sure about locked - it claims content copying is allowed, but I got that to work on the phoito credits and on nothing else. I presume that the content was prepared as images and there is no text embedded at all, hence nothing to copy or search.

I have got some text out with screen captures and OCR software ... how sad am I?

I can't work out if it's a proper report in the format of a presentation, or a presentation, or meant to serve as both. But it's only got pictures, short summaries, and lists of things, so I was thinking it would be easier to just retype anything useful. But feel free to save me the effort ...


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: stuving on October 06, 2022, 19:21:44
Here's a point is about Reading-Basingstoke. When this came up before, it was worth doing mainly as part of the "electric spine", so continuing the 25 kV AC to Southampton. At that time the WoE was not proposed for electrification at all.

Now, the relevant maps show WoE electrified in all their three options, and it's a question of what else to do if the wires get down to Basingstoke. That could be (1) nothing, leave the triangle of lines as DC, (2) convert Basingstoke-Salisbury-Southampton to 25 kV but not Basinstoke-Southampton, or (3) convert all three.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: paul7575 on October 06, 2022, 19:26:34
Although outside our main area of interest, I see that after all the debate in recent years they are seemingly sticking with 3rd rail to Uckfield.

Paul


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: stuving on October 06, 2022, 19:34:38
Although outside our main area of interest, I see that after all the debate in recent years they are seemingly sticking with 3rd rail to Uckfield.

Paul

Yes, in one of their references to the SOBC they say "AC electrification found to be grossly disproportionate in cost compared to the safety benefits gained..." Is this the start of a campaign by NR?

The SOBC is the Strategic Outline business Case; AIUI it's the official begging letter from NR to DfT to please put some money into their end of the pipeline.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: paul7575 on October 06, 2022, 19:49:26
Although outside our main area of interest, I see that after all the debate in recent years they are seemingly sticking with 3rd rail to Uckfield.

Paul

Yes, in one of their references to the SOBC they say "AC electrification found to be grossly disproportionate in cost compared to the safety benefits gained..." Is this the start of a campaign by NR?

The SOBC is the Strategic Outline business Case; AIUI it's the official begging letter from NR to DfT to please put some money into their end of the pipeline.

I’ve always thought with the Uckfield branch being right in the middle of the wider “Southern Region” the safety aspects are exaggerated. I suggest a lot of normal members of the public will just assume everywhere in the area is third rail already…


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: eightonedee on October 06, 2022, 23:09:26
Quote
I’ve always thought with the Uckfield branch being right in the middle of the wider “Southern Region” the safety aspects are exaggerated. I suggest a lot of normal members of the public will just assume everywhere in the area is third rail already…

Agreed, and in fact the same comment could be made about infilling the North Downs with third rail too. Overall, the increased safety risk for such modest schemes must be immaterial in the light of the current extensive third rail network on the old Southern Region.


Title: Re: Network Rail decarbonisation policy
Post by: Electric train on October 07, 2022, 07:45:24
Although outside our main area of interest, I see that after all the debate in recent years they are seemingly sticking with 3rd rail to Uckfield.

Paul

Yes, in one of their references to the SOBC they say "AC electrification found to be grossly disproportionate in cost compared to the safety benefits gained..." Is this the start of a campaign by NR?

The SOBC is the Strategic Outline business Case; AIUI it's the official begging letter from NR to DfT to please put some money into their end of the pipeline.

I’ve always thought with the Uckfield branch being right in the middle of the wider “Southern Region” the safety aspects are exaggerated. I suggest a lot of normal members of the public will just assume everywhere in the area is third rail already…

Quote
I’ve always thought with the Uckfield branch being right in the middle of the wider “Southern Region” the safety aspects are exaggerated. I suggest a lot of normal members of the public will just assume everywhere in the area is third rail already…

Agreed, and in fact the same comment could be made about infilling the North Downs with third rail too. Overall, the increased safety risk for such modest schemes must be immaterial in the light of the current extensive third rail network on the old Southern Region.

New third rail top contact electrification by "extension", infill etc has never been banned as such.  It has been the case over the last few decades that the Regulator of safety on the UK railways (the ORR DfT and the HSE) have placed the bar very high to get the safety case through making any new schemes, extensions etc prohibitively expensive.

NR has done quite a bit of work with the ORR and DfT on the safety measures that now makes the expansion of third rail top contact electrification feasible.

25kV Reading Basingstoke is questionable on any benefits, there would be the need for an expensive AC/DC interface at the southern end, and what traffic would make use of it?

Local stoppers, battery powered units could provide this.
X-Country, little use they would need new tri-mode units (third, OLE, diesel) there just is not the revenue to justify this without Government funding
Freight, again little use they would need new tri-mode units (third, OLE, diesel) with the additional need for third rail power supply upgrade for the heavier current draw on the container trains that use the route.




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