Great Western Coffee Shop

Bath-based Jack Martin Leith has set up what looks to be a useful database of rail reopening schemes. Worth a browse, I'd say:

http://reopen.org.uk/

Certainly worth a browse.  Very much (and stated as being) work in progress - quite a number of schemes to add.    I would love to see an overall map - perhaps no more than pushpins with links - to give the index some geographic context.

A few things jumped out at me as I looked through it.

Firstly, some of it appears very fanciful to say the least. It?s all very well listing currently freight only lines for the reinstatement of a passenger service, but quite another to build a new line ? even a short one. For example, how much would it cost to reinstate the Thornbury branch beyond Tytherington and what would the CBR look like even if you proposed it?

Secondly it appears that whilst the list looks impressive at first sight, there are a lot of multiple entries (eg. listing the Portishead branch for reopening and also listing separately proposals for stations on that route).

I also see that Sheffield Victoria appears on the list. What for? What sensible purpose would be achieved? Yes there is a single freight only line going through the station site, but if there was a case for the restoration of a local suburban service (which I doubt because if there was a case then the Sheffield tram network would be running there already) then it would be a straightforward matter to reverse trans into Sheffield (Midland) which did happen for a few years before the Penistone services were diverted via Barnsley. It doesn?t appear possible to look more closely into what they have in mind here because clicking on the link within the station name returns error 404 page not found.

Edited to add - I have now found some details on their Chesterfield to Sheffield via Stavely and Killamarsh page. According to that page, this scheme has already been succesful at the bid stage and Victoria would be the Sheffield termimus of these trains. If that terminus proposal has also been successful at the bid stage I totally fail to see what the point of having a second station in central Sheffield is when the trains could run straight into Midland -unless thre were capacity issues of course. But even if there were, that would hardly attract longer distance passengers who needed a connecting service., and that service left from the other station

I have been in touch with Jack ... to see if now or later is the stage to review / suggest what may be missing, bearing in mind it is work in progress. After that exchange, I suggest we hold fire on flooding the forum, or Jack, just yet with comments many of which he knows and is going to get to.  And will, I suspect, sort out and link associated schemes.


Ah - but if you're going to index all the schemes out there ... it's everything from Fleetwood and other marginal constituency favourites through to Builth Road to Moat Lane Junction from the parti loony raving anghenfil manifesto.   This is a nightmare of a decision on what to include that the local RailFuture branch has had (and differed in option with the national leadership on!).

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Edited (on my part) to suggest that individual project are handled under individual or group threads once we get beyond their soundbites?

Thanks for the shout out. Greatly appreciated!

My intention is to have every line and station reopening / opening scheme covered by Christmas. Currently there are 90+ pages at various levels of completion, although nothing is ever complete in this realm.

I know about most schemes although I keep coming across new ones.

These are my main sources, in addition to Wikipedia and the net in general:

- Campaign for Better Transport
- Railfuture
- DfT Restoring Your Railway Fund (list of round 1 awards, and list of all submissions)
- Friends of Suburban Bristol Railways website (all lines and stations proposed by FoSBR now completed)
- Trade press (mostly Rail and Modern Railways)
- Trundelage website
- The Anonymous Widower website

When the database is as complete as I can get it, I'll publish the list here and ask you to inform me of anything I've missed.

Reopen is a non-commercial venture and it's just me and my laptop, so please be patient if I've yet to cover your favourite (re)opening scheme.

Warm wishes to all, from downtown Bath.

Edit: My intention is to be non-partisan when creating new entries, and to share solid information rather than my opinion. But yes, some of the proposals are completely bonkers.

Welcome to the Coffeeshop, Jack! We've already had a conversation, me with my FoSBR webmaster hat on, but I hope you'll find this forum useful.

There's a lot of knowledge and useful opinions here, and we seldom bite. I've certainly learnt a lot!

Have thet got a branch in Norton Radstock?

 ;)

I take it that was aimed at me:



I know some people consider that a "loony" idea, but I believe in it, and will continue to do so.

It wasn't aimed at anybody  :)

It was one of my throwaway one-liners that I see has bitten the dust once again...

We need an "I'll get me coat" smiley on this forum!

Fair enough and my apologies to the honourable gentleman.

That smiley would be no use to me right now, as I've had me coat on all day due to Brittany being virtually underwater...We only have 2 seasons here - Sun and Rain  ;D

To me, the reopen.org site will be a very useful resource to compare now well aspirations are matced by results in the future. The optimist in me says many will, the realist in me says that failure to achieve a large amount of these ambitions is not an acceptable option.

Likewise in Cornwall, but our heritage is closely aligned with fellow Celtic states such as Brittany, Wales, Scotland and Eire  :) :)

Not only do those of us who advocate for better, more sustainable public transport look at re-openings, but at new routes and services for the future. The sort of questions that Jack will find himself considering will include or will have already included ...
* How much new build should be covered?
* At what point is a scheme considered complete, or dead and no longer to be listed?
* Do you include new services on freight lines - passengers for first time?
* Do you include stations at new (never before a station) locations on current (never closed) lines?
* How long must a line / station be closed before it is considered for reopening?
* Do you include light rail and tramways?
* Do you include stations / lines techncically open but with no mass transit users at present?

Here (in asciibetic order) are some of the [do I / don't I] decisions to be made - some obvious, some rather tricky cases

Afon Wen to Bangor; Aztec West; Bacon factory curve; Barking Riverside and extensions to Thamesmead Central; Barlaston, Wedgewood; Barton on Humber to Gainsborough Central; Battersea Power Station; Bedford to Cambridge; Birmingham Tram (in the city element); Blackpool tram to Blackpool North Station; Bow Street; Cardiff Bay and Cardiff Metro; Chippenham platform 3; Cowley Branch; Crossrail; Crossrail 2; Devizes Parkway; HS2; Heathrow South; Heathrow West; Hebredian Light Railway; IBM; Llanelli to Craven Arms; Maindee curve; Montrose to Stonehaven; Polesworth, Teeside Airport, Pilning; Portway Parkway; Rickmansworth to Watford Junction; Sheffield Victoria towards Penistone; Swindon to Oxford; Westbury platform 0.

I look forward to seeing how Jack handles cases / situations such as these as they will characterise the site and its application.

Thanks for the questions Graham, some of which I was already considering. Briefly:

How much new build should be covered?

All of it, I think. Cambridge South now covered.

At what point is a scheme considered complete, or dead and no longer to be listed?

When Cambridge South opens to passengers it will remain on the database, marked as now operational or something like that.

Dead projects is a hard one to answer. If the Northern Route Working Group's scheme should prove unsuccessful (heaven forbid), then is Exeter - Okehampton - Tavistock - Plymouth now dead, or is it just dormant? But what about obvious no-hopers? I'm reluctant to give examples, but there are a couple in this part of the world.

Do you include new services on freight lines - passengers for first time?

Yes.

Do you include stations at new (never before a station) locations on current (never closed) lines?

Yes. Examples: Beam Park, White Rose, Portway whatever it's called.

How long must a line / station be closed before it is considered for reopening?

No time limit.

Do you include light rail and tramways?

Initially, it wasn't my intention to include these. But over the past week I've spent a lot of time (metaphorically) in Greater Manchester and Lancashire, and there's more work to do here: Bury - Bolton for example. In some cases, it's impossible to know whether the end result is likely to be heavy rail, light rail or tramway. The distinctions are blurring. So I'm feeling my way through this one.

Do you include stations / lines techncically open but with no mass transit users at present?

Yes. Examples: Ashton - Stockport line, Barrow Hill line.

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Thanks also for this list, which I've saved for future reference. Devizes Parkway and Portway (Parkway? No one seems to know for sure) already covered. I may need to ask you about some of them, such as IBM.

Afon Wen to Bangor; Aztec West; Bacon factory curve; Barking Riverside and extensions to Thamesmead Central; Barlaston, Wedgewood; Barton on Humber to Gainsborough Central; Battersea Power Station; Bedford to Cambridge; Birmingham Tram (in the city element); Blackpool tram to Blackpool North Station; Bow Street; Cardiff Bay and Cardiff Metro; Chippenham platform 3; Cowley Branch; Crossrail; Crossrail 2; Devizes Parkway; HS2; Heathrow South; Heathrow West; Hebredian Light Railway; IBM; Llanelli to Craven Arms; Maindee curve; Montrose to Stonehaven; Polesworth, Teeside Airport, Pilning; Portway Parkway; Rickmansworth to Watford Junction; Sheffield Victoria towards Penistone; Swindon to Oxford; Westbury platform 0.

Now back to the grindstone. Next up: To reinstate the Rose Hill (Marple) to Maple Grove Line, Stockport (source: Restoring Your Railway - All bids received).

Edit: Seems that Maple Grove is neither a place nor a closed station. The Macclesfield, Bollington and Marple Railway didn't go to Hazel Grove, so I can eliminate that from my enquiries. This is the most puzzling scheme I've encountered to date. Info and clues welcome.

It may be of no use whatsoever, but Rose Hill Marple is a curious one. Temporarily suspended (AIUI) during the pandemic, it is currenly mainly being served by rail replacement buses running to and from Romiley, but RTT shows three trains booked to run today, one of which was cancelled.

This line is the stub left after the line through to Macclesfield was closed in 1970. The remainder, up to the outskirts of Macclesfield, is now the Middlewood Way, a footpath cycle route and bridleway.

Here's a shot of the station that I took when I was last up there, in the days when my eyesight was better...

https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/19832191023/

Edited to add: there was a bit of a story that developed that day with a Staffordshire Bull Terrier. No trailway content in the narrative below the photo, but the incdent is explained about half way down. Cyclists and other towpath users mighht be interested!

https://www.flickr.com/photos/93122458@N08/20265020370/

The whole service was originally planned to be "temporarily suspended" until mid-December:


However, the campaign was successful in forcing a last minute u-turn, and a plan to keep a limited train service running in the meantime, and then a gradual stepping back up of the frequency from the end of October, has instead been agreed:

https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/services-continue-vital-rail-line-18920002

https://marketingstockport.co.uk/news/council-confirms-plan-to-restore-marple-train-services/

Thought you would be ... and worried if you had not.   Thanks for filling us in; means we can (as, when and if you ask) help find and tailor.  Answers look eminently sensible.

Thanks for your input, Robin. Great photos. I've created a Reopen page named Rose Hill Marple to Maple Grove / Hazel Grove line until the mystery has been resolved: http://reopen.org.uk/rose-hill-marple-maple-grove-line/ (http://reopen.org.uk/rose-hill-marple-maple-grove-line/).

There never was a direct railway line between Rose Hill and Hazel Grove. There was a theoretical travel possibility between the two by changing at Middletwood where the Rose Hill to Macclesfield line crosses the Stockport to Buxton one, but what the connection were like I have no idea!

I am not aware of any town or village called Maple Grove and neither, or so it appears, has Google Maps  :)

Jack may have been thinking of Mrs Elton, who refers to Maple Grove, the fine residence of her brother-in-law, Mr Suckling, at the slightest opportunity. ;)

The first reference is here: http://www.mollands.net/etexts/emma/emma32.html (http://www.mollands.net/etexts/emma/emma32.html)

THe 7th series one inch OS maps, published in the 1960s and showing most of the pre-Beeching lines still open, are available in a seamless version online:

https://www.sabre-roads.org.uk/maps/

Select One Inch OS maps from the category drop down menu on the left

The find facility works but not very well for me because you still have to zoom in and unless you get your reference point at the centre of the screen it can zoom you in somewhere you didn't want to go!

Robin, I'm still trying to get the hang of this forum interface. It's far from intuitive and it's hard to see how to respond to a nested comment. So apologies if I'm doing it all wrong. Anyway, thanks for the map link. It's a rebranded OpenStreetMap.

Hi, Jack ... click on "quote" at the top of the post you want to quote ... or if you have hit on "reply" you can scroll down to click on "insert quote"  - that's more flexible if you want to quote several different posts,

We each "do it" our own way ... the moderator and admin team happy to help tune posts / move things around a little to help them be more readable both now and in the archived future.   We are aware of a need to step up to a more modern version of the software - first stage was done last month in which we updated from an ancient server to a much more modern one with current(ish) versions of operating systems, databases and open source languages.  Issues (that the members will not have seen!) still being flagged up as late as yesterday ... want to be sure we get those issues deal with before the next step.

I can't see any mention of Bourne End - High Wycombe have I missed it. There have been studies but nothing has come of them.

It really provides the missing link between North and South Bucks. Serving Oxford and the West Midlands from Wycombe,  Aylesbury and Milton Keynes (WCML), Bedford and the East Midlands.

It's a tricky one with buildings on the line of route and several level crossing to sort out

I wonder if this has been overtaken by events, given that there is now a direct service from Wycomne to Oxford via Bicester and the forthcoming east west ail link from Bletchley.

I'm not criticising those pushing for reopenings, but I can't be alone in thinking a 'Closure' database might be more relevant given the current worldwide crisis?

Hopefully all of the shovel ready and 'shovels already in ground' projects will go ahead, but I can't see much more happening whilst travel levels and the wider economy remains suppressed- and that will probably be for years.

_{[Attempt to fix character mapping issue - RS]}

But there are two worldwide crises.

One is likely to start to abate over the next year or so, while the other is likely to slowly come to a head over the remainder of this century.

It may well be appropriate, for a period, to suspend some services and thin others out. It may well be necessary to rethink service patterns to emphasise regional travel rather than tidal flows into and out of London. It is very likely that leisure travel will become more important, and that there will be less of a peak.

But the alternative growth strategy, building more roads, is a bust. It doesn't work, and the people who advocate it know that. Sadly, they also know it's popular...

I agree that roads won't help in the long run. Numbers may be down because of the C-word, but I don't believe that they will stay that way. Planning for reopenings should continue on the basis that numbers will recover within 5 years, a very short time in railway project terms.

Possibly the case for leisure travel, but it's unlikely that commuting will ever get back to the same numbers given the realisation by both Businesses and employees that long term/permanent remote working is entirely viable in many cases and saves both money and time whilst massively improving work/life balance.

The one or at most two day a week commuter is likely to be the model going forward.

I'm sure you are right, TG.

Can the railway, in the medium term, adjust to these changes? The answer, if we let it, must be yes.

Should the network be allowed to permanently shrink? Emphatically, no!

I don't disagree, however "the railway" shouldn't sit back and allow it to happen - there is much they can do proactively, particularly improvements in the area of leisure travel, working practices and installing a culture of promoting customer service/experience which could help to mitigate against a future of fewer passengers.

Culture can be the hardest thing to change/adjust in any organisation, especially one which is still firmly rooted in a monopolistic public sector mindset, but in this respect, even the railways can move more quickly.

They may have to, if aforementioned "shrinkage" is to be avoided.

Source: https://jackmartinleith.com/ , redirected from reopen.org.uk