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Journey by Journey => Transport for London => Topic started by: infoman on October 07, 2020, 10:11:14 am



Title: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: infoman on October 07, 2020, 10:11:14 am
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/tube-london-cashless-andy-byford-a4560826.html


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 07, 2020, 12:47:17 pm
They haven't taken cash on buses for years, AFAIK, so this seems a logical step. I don't think the concerns raised of fare evasion are realistic; it's getting through the barriers without paying that constitutes fare evasion, not the handing over of cash. Oyster and contactless mean most people won't have a physical ticket anyway (if they still exist?) so nothing changes there.

The concern about the unbanked, of which school children probably constitute the largest section, is more realistic IMO. But as the article says, cash will still be taken for Oyster at shops. This is the way many public transport systems have operated for decades, since before card payment was common and contactless payments were even invented, so it's not really a problem. And those same kids have somehow been travelling by cashless bus all this time.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 07, 2020, 03:23:40 pm
Having said that, a counter-word. The article gave a figure for percentage of Tube journeys currently paid by cash. It was extremely small, in the low single digits. An equally if not more valid figure would be the percentage of people who never or very rarely travel by Tube but would do so if it were easy to pay by cash. This would be hard to ascertain though, I think many people would tend to say "Of course I'd take the Tube if only I could (pay by cash/take my dog/get a free ice cream)" but would not actually take the opportunity if it were there. You could, I suppose, look at the percentages for something more easily ascertained, eg supermarket takings, and make some extrapolation.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Electric train on October 07, 2020, 09:35:10 pm
Covid is driving us more cashless every day, I cannot remember the last time in the past 5 months when I've actually made an over the counter cash transaction; its all been by card


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: stuving on October 07, 2020, 10:13:44 pm
They haven't taken cash on buses for years, AFAIK, so this seems a logical step. I don't think the concerns raised of fare evasion are realistic; it's getting through the barriers without paying that constitutes fare evasion, not the handing over of cash. Oyster and contactless mean most people won't have a physical ticket anyway (if they still exist?) so nothing changes there.

The concern about the unbanked, of which school children probably constitute the largest section, is more realistic IMO. But as the article says, cash will still be taken for Oyster at shops. This is the way many public transport systems have operated for decades, since before card payment was common and contactless payments were even invented, so it's not really a problem. And those same kids have somehow been travelling by cashless bus all this time.

How many systems have no option to put cash in a machine? I can see why TfL want to do this, as servicing and securing machines costs money. But while it may be inevitable, I think it is precisely the wrong time to do it. For the few people that do still need to use cash, the safest place to do it is in a machine. And with such small amounts involved, machines don't need to recycle change. So the partial withdrawal earlier this year was misguided; best to put it off until next year (or whenever).


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Jamsdad on October 08, 2020, 09:27:03 am
Makes sense to me. My only grumble is the near impossibility to get my Senior Railcard linked to Oyster, meaning I have to pay a significant supplement on any London area train/tube travel.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Reginald25 on October 08, 2020, 09:36:43 am
They haven't taken cash on buses for years, AFAIK, so this seems a logical step. I don't think the concerns raised of fare evasion are realistic; it's getting through the barriers without paying that constitutes fare evasion, not the handing over of cash. Oyster and contactless mean most people won't have a physical ticket anyway (if they still exist?) so nothing changes there.


London is a special case with Oyster, and also a few other local areas have some form of Smart card. But that's not true of many areas, where the driver will take cash (possibly some Covid changes but cash still accepted).


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 08, 2020, 12:39:42 pm
They haven't taken cash on buses for years, AFAIK, so this seems a logical step. I don't think the concerns raised of fare evasion are realistic; it's getting through the barriers without paying that constitutes fare evasion, not the handing over of cash. Oyster and contactless mean most people won't have a physical ticket anyway (if they still exist?) so nothing changes there.


London is a special case with Oyster, and also a few other local areas have some form of Smart card. But that's not true of many areas, where the driver will take cash (possibly some Covid changes but cash still accepted).
Yes, I was thinking specifically of TfL buses but perhaps that wasn't entirely clear.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Bmblbzzz on October 08, 2020, 12:48:27 pm
They haven't taken cash on buses for years, AFAIK, so this seems a logical step. I don't think the concerns raised of fare evasion are realistic; it's getting through the barriers without paying that constitutes fare evasion, not the handing over of cash. Oyster and contactless mean most people won't have a physical ticket anyway (if they still exist?) so nothing changes there.

The concern about the unbanked, of which school children probably constitute the largest section, is more realistic IMO. But as the article says, cash will still be taken for Oyster at shops. This is the way many public transport systems have operated for decades, since before card payment was common and contactless payments were even invented, so it's not really a problem. And those same kids have somehow been travelling by cashless bus all this time.

How many systems have no option to put cash in a machine? I can see why TfL want to do this, as servicing and securing machines costs money. But while it may be inevitable, I think it is precisely the wrong time to do it. For the few people that do still need to use cash, the safest place to do it is in a machine. And with such small amounts involved, machines don't need to recycle change. So the partial withdrawal earlier this year was misguided; best to put it off until next year (or whenever).
That makes sense for the tube, where you can generally put a ticket vending machine somewhere that it won't cause an obstruction but there will be staff around if needed. For buses, it's more of a problem. If you put the machines at stops, they'll be liable to vandalism. On the bus itself, you'd have to put it near the entrance in order to be accessible to all passengers, and then you're back to the situation where one passenger causes a queue, delaying the bus. In the long term, the aim is surely not just to stop handling cash but to move away from paper tickets. Which is not without its own issues of course.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: paul7575 on October 08, 2020, 01:04:18 pm
Makes sense to me. My only grumble is the near impossibility to get my Senior Railcard linked to Oyster, meaning I have to pay a significant supplement on any London area train/tube travel.
What is the ?near impossibility??  I got mine linked in about 30 seconds at a zone 1 station simply by asking staff to do it - they used their staff login at a normal LU ticket machine?  I?m told it can be done at any LU manned station.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Robin Summerhill on October 09, 2020, 11:58:20 am
Covid is driving us more cashless every day, I cannot remember the last time in the past 5 months when I've actually made an over the counter cash transaction; its all been by card

The only shop in my neck of the woods that steadfastly refuses to accept cards is my barber.  Even the local chip shop accepts cards for a small bag of chips!

And yes I agree that COVID is accellerating a process that has been quietly going on in the backgound for years. Think back if you will to the 1970s when most large orgaisantions were still paying their workforce weekly in cash (like most railway staff in those days). The security issues involved in moving that amount of cash around were immense, and of course criminals carrying out Payroll Jobs were not uncommon.

I am afraid that whether we like it or not, widespread cash use is on its way out and we have already seen examples of the side effects of this such as closure of local Post Offices and banks.

There comes a point when even those who don't like it have to adapt to the new inevitable. I am reminded of that famous vox pop at the time of decimalisation when somebody said "We shouldn't change until all the old people die"


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Oxonhutch on October 09, 2020, 08:08:48 pm
I enjoyed explaining to my kids what a wage packet actually looked like and how clever it was. A sealed manila envelope with a small corner cut off so you could count the notes sticking out and a clear window in the front where the coins could be counted. Problem with the amount, and you could dispute it with the wage clerk with the seal intact.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: grahame on December 27, 2020, 05:38:41 pm
Refreshed / extended story (?) from myLondon (https://www.mylondon.news/news/zone-1-news/big-change-coming-london-underground-19526574)

Quote
Transport for London is considering a change that could make travelling in the capital difficult for a lot of people.

During the pandemic, most Tube stations stopped taking cash for ticket payments or Oyster card top-ups due to the possibility of spreading the virus.

Now TfL wants to make this change permanent in all stations on the network.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 28, 2020, 01:46:55 pm
London catching up with Yorkshire.
https://www.hulldailymail.co.uk/news/hull-east-yorkshire-news/humber-bridge-cashless-payments-card-4811097


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: TonyN on December 28, 2020, 04:53:52 pm
London catching up with Yorkshire.

I think there is a bit more to this. The mention of Turnips is a local insult to people from Lincolnshire. There is no love lost between those living north and south of the Humber.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 28, 2020, 09:32:47 pm
I shall try to pay my Clifton Suspension Bridge toll in mangel wurzels!


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: eXPassenger on December 28, 2020, 11:04:52 pm
I shall try to pay my Clifton Suspension Bridge toll in mangel wurzels!

Will they fit in the coin slot?


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 29, 2020, 04:22:55 pm
I shall try to pay my Clifton Suspension Bridge toll in mangel wurzels!

Will they fit in the coin slot?
Yes, I fry them and make them into mangel wurzel chips.



(but actually there is no coin clot on the CSB)


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: eXPassenger on December 29, 2020, 05:06:24 pm
I shall try to pay my Clifton Suspension Bridge toll in mangel wurzels!

Will they fit in the coin slot?
Yes, I fry them and make them into mangel wurzel chips.



(but actually there is no coin clot on the CSB)

Shows how long it is (~40 years) since I used the CSB.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Bmblbzzz on December 30, 2020, 12:57:17 pm
I think it's a relatively new development, and one I wasn't aware of till yesterday, when I crossed the bridge on foot and saw the signs. The tolls weren't collected directly by staff anyway, so it's probably not directly Covid-related.


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Electric train on December 31, 2020, 01:15:12 pm
I have seen elsewhere that TfL is going ahead with the cashless system for the Tube, also number of stations will close at weekends even in central London.  A number of bus routes are also effected with reduced services and possibly some routes being merged

Also the former Mayor for London, Boris's vanity project the Night Tube is likely to be suspended, with the last Tube being 12 am


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: REVUpminster on December 31, 2020, 05:10:58 pm
The night tube has not run since March along with the W&C line and many stations have closed.

The night tube might have been a vanity project in 2014 but the unions went on strike and it was not resolved, I wonder why, until Sadiq Khan, labour,  became mayor and services started in 2016.

Who controls London Underground; the Mayor or the Unions?


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: stuving on January 24, 2021, 05:26:00 pm
TfL have halted their programme of withdrawing cash facilities from Tube stations, if only for the time being. From ianVisits (https://www.ianvisits.co.uk/blog/2021/01/20/tfl-to-keep-accepting-cash-payments-for-london-travel-tickets/):
Quote
TfL to keep accepting cash payments for London travel tickets
Posted on 20th January 2021 Posted in Transport News

A temporary reprieve for cash, as TfL has put on hold plans to stop accepting cash as payment for travel tickets.

During the pandemic, TfL stopped accepting cash payments at many tube stations as a temporary measure, and had been planning to make that change permenant, and later to expand it. Around 70% of tube stations stopped accepting cash during the pandemic, along with all DLR stations. Apart from reducing handling of cash, they also found that it reduce queues at ticket offices, a useful effect during social distancing.

TfL?s argument being that few people now pay with cash anyway ? and that local retailers can also sell tickets if people needed to pay with cash.

However, an investigation by London TravelWatch?s found that some stations don?t have a Ticket Stop, usually a newsagent or convenience store, nearby, meaning that it would have been harder to top up an Oyster card with cash.

TfL has now partially stepped back from the plans, saying that it will review the decision and wont be proceeding ?at this time?.

Caroline Pidgeon, Liberal Democrat London Assembly Member, commenting on TfL dropping its plans to stop taking cash across all of London Underground, DLR and London Overground stations said:

?This is a welcome decision and a real victory for the 260,000 adults in London without a bank account. Children and tourists will also benefit from this decision.?

?As Travelwatch powerfully demonstrated there are many stations which do not have a newsagent or convenience store nearby, so TfL?s plans would have posed ongoing difficulties for people topping up Oyster cards.?

However, TfL noted that it will be keeping payment options under review.
...


Title: Re: the tube will soon be cashless
Post by: Surrey 455 on June 22, 2021, 12:28:20 am
That temporary reprieve now looks to be permanent.

From London's Evening Standard (https://www.standard.co.uk/news/london/transport-for-london-abandons-plans-cash-free-b941684.html)
Quote
Transport for London has abandoned plans to make the London Underground cash-free.

A total of 200 of the 262 Tube stations stopped taking cash in May last year amid concerns that the sharing of notes and coins could spread Covid, and to prevent queues at ticket machines.

But City Hall on Monday announced the “vast majority” of Underground and DLR stations would now have one machine able to accept cash payments to buy tickets or upload credit onto Oyster cards.



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