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Title: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on October 07, 2020, 10:39:29 From GE Plus (https://www.geplus.co.uk/news/network-rail-chair-to-assess-feasibility-of-irish-sea-tunnel-07-10-2020/)
Quote The chair of Network Rail, Peter Hendy, is to lead an independent review of UK transport connections which will consider the feasibility of a tunnel or bridge between Scotland and Northern Ireland. The government-backed review will look at how to boost transport infrastructure in Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland and England including faster road and rail links and potential projects for improving infrastructure. Earlier this year Boris Johnson?s secretary of state for Scotland, Alister Jack, made the case for a tunnel to link the Scotland to Northern Ireland. At the time he said it would be cheaper to build and more efficient to use than a bridge. In 2019 Johnson proposed a bridge across the Irish Sea which was widely criticised. Other areas that will be included in the study are: reviewing air links within the UK, boosting road and rail links to Scotland; cutting journey times to North Wales by reviewing the Welsh railway network; and improving major road links across the country, like the A1. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Lee on October 07, 2020, 12:23:24 Just the man for a nonsense, will-never-happen bridge to nowhere.
Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: TaplowGreen on October 07, 2020, 12:53:14 Just the man for a nonsense, will-never-happen bridge to nowhere. Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on October 07, 2020, 13:09:29 Just the man for a nonsense, will-never-happen bridge to nowhere. Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? All this talk of tunnels and bridges ... I wonder if there is an intermediate option that could be considered, with something on the surface of the water? It wouldn't even need to be continuous - they could batch up people wanting to go across (just as they do in a train anyway) and then dispatch those batches to a timetable, with some sort of engine on the batch container. Might even offer a buffet or restaurant service? Perhaps too novel to consider? Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: stuving on October 07, 2020, 13:15:04 Just the man for a nonsense, will-never-happen bridge to nowhere. Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? All this talk of tunnels and bridges ... I wonder if there is an intermediate option that could be considered, with something on the surface of the water? It wouldn't even need to be continuous - they could batch up people wanting to go across (just as they do in a train anyway) and then dispatch those batches to a timetable, with some sort of engine on the batch container. Might even offer a buffet or restaurant service? Perhaps too novel to consider? Would that be a transporter (bridge)? Or maybe a "transporter tunnel"? Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on October 07, 2020, 13:42:04 Would that be a transporter (bridge)? Or maybe a "transporter tunnel"? I was thinking of a 4 letter word ... sh** - but you need to be quiet or the idea might gain credence and that would be no good to any politician who wants to stamp his or her change on the current setup. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Lee on October 07, 2020, 13:43:50 Just the man for a nonsense, will-never-happen bridge to nowhere. Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? All this talk of tunnels and bridges ... I wonder if there is an intermediate option that could be considered, with something on the surface of the water? It wouldn't even need to be continuous - they could batch up people wanting to go across (just as they do in a train anyway) and then dispatch those batches to a timetable, with some sort of engine on the batch container. Might even offer a buffet or restaurant service? Perhaps too novel to consider? Broadgage Boats? The Portpatrick Pullman? Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Surrey 455 on October 07, 2020, 22:25:56 Will the bridge have trees and gardens? How about a zipwire?
Hmm, they didn't work out very well for him either. ::) Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Lee on October 07, 2020, 22:43:13 A classic archive interview clip for you:
"I'm not a moral compass...I just run public transport in London" Let's hope he possesses an actual compass, or we could end up in Cork ;D Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Phil on October 09, 2020, 12:52:22 Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on October 09, 2020, 12:58:55 Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me. It's simple in cynical fantasy, Phil ... I hope I read that right, and I suspect you read it that way too ;D Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: stuving on October 09, 2020, 13:33:36 Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me. Well, crayons are waterproof aren't they? Just leaves the paper ... Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: rogerpatenall on October 09, 2020, 13:38:15 Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me. It's simple in cynical fantasy, Phil ... I hope I read that right, and I suspect you read it that way too ;D Maybe Phil didn't consider the simple expedient of looking around the railway network for a few ready made but disused tunnels (Woodhead, etc) that could be borrowed for the project. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: TaplowGreen on October 09, 2020, 15:25:48 Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me. How anyone could imagine I was being serious is beyond me 🙂 Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: eightf48544 on October 09, 2020, 15:31:28 Has anyone worked out that 4' 81/2" 5' 3" doesn't go. I suppose you could have an automatic gauge change at Larne.
Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: stuving on October 09, 2020, 15:42:14 Has anyone worked out that 4' 81/2" 5' 3" doesn't go. I suppose you could have an automatic gauge change at Larne. Given how long it's likely to take, that may not be an issue. If the railways each side are hyperloops, for example ... after all, your man Elon is always up for a challenge. Plan A would employ some SpaceX technology to get across the gap; call that the brute force method. Plan B has a bit more elegance, and uses a special aerodynamic capsule that pops out of its tunnel one one side and "lands" in a funnel on the other. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Robin Summerhill on October 09, 2020, 20:46:09 Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me. How anyone could imagine I was being serious is beyond me 🙂 I get that problem all the time... ;) Lets see what response I get to the next post... Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Robin Summerhill on October 09, 2020, 20:52:20 Has anyone worked out that 4' 81/2" 5' 3" doesn't go. I suppose you could have an automatic gauge change at Larne. Simples. Dual gauge to the England/ Scotland border so when Scotland leaves the UK and rejoins the EU it will be Carlisles problem Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Phil on October 10, 2020, 19:04:45 Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me. How anyone could imagine I was being serious is beyond me 🙂 I was quoting your own quote back at you. The entire exchange is utterly beyond me, as well. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Phil on October 10, 2020, 19:10:21 Surely HS2 could simply be extended to Belfast? How anyone could imagine HS2 could be "simply" extended to Belfast is beyond me. It's simple in cynical fantasy, Phil ... I hope I read that right, and I suspect you read it that way too ;D No, actually I didn't. I read it as an opportunity to ridicule someone in a similar way to that which they attempted to ridicule me by intentionally misinterpreting something that I wrote 24 hours previously. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on December 14, 2020, 19:53:17 From The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/edinburgh-experts-draw-plan-floating-tube-bridge-linking-scotland-and-northern-ireland-3067444)
Quote Edinburgh experts draw-up plan for floating 'tube bridge' linking Scotland and Northern Ireland Prime Minister Boris Johnson has repeatedly given enthusiastic support to ambitious proposals for a 20-mile bridge between Portpatrick in Wigtownshire, and Larne, north of Belfast. The crossing could cost ?15 billion according to initial estimates However, a team from Heriot-Watt University in Edinburgh have now proposed a less costly scheme involving the creation of a submerged floating tube bridge (SFTB). Their vision would require less structural engineering work because instead of pillars it would be anchored to the sea bed and tethered to pontoons on the surface. The tube through which traffic could pass would be 50m (164ft) below the surface. Cars could drive through or park on a high-speed shuttle train, which the designers say would be safer. It is also estimated the SFTB would cut the current ferry passage from Cairnryan Port to Northern Ireland from two-and-a-half-hours to 40 minutes. "From an engineering perspective, an SFTB as a concept is very exciting," said Eoin MacDonald, who is working on the project proposal. "It has the potential to transform how long-distance sea crossings are tackled." Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: CyclingSid on December 15, 2020, 06:45:12 What lurks beneath:
https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stena-superfast-vii-and-royal-navy-submarine-report-published (https://www.gov.uk/government/news/stena-superfast-vii-and-royal-navy-submarine-report-published) Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: broadgage on December 16, 2020, 16:38:09 All this talk of tunnels and bridges ... I wonder if there is an intermediate option that could be considered, with something on the surface of the water? It wouldn't even need to be continuous - they could batch up people wanting to go across (just as they do in a train anyway) and then dispatch those batches to a timetable, with some sort of engine on the batch container. Might even offer a buffet or restaurant service? Perhaps too novel to consider? An entertaining thought, but it would never work in practice. If the engine failed, the batch container would drift helplessly, until dashed against rocks, or ending up in the wrong country. With no rigid supporting structure, the containers would pitch around in rough weather, and those onboard suffer from motion sickness, or broken limbs when thrown around. If a defect in the structure occurred, the water would get in, the container would sink beneath the water, and those onboard drown in the usual way. Who would chance that. How could any but the most basic catering be provided ? Cooking hot food on a train is a bit of a challenge, but has been achieved, with excellent results. But on one of these floating (hopefully) containers, that may tilt in any direction without warning ! Food and drink would be dashed to the floor, staff thrown against hot stoves, impaled on kitchen knives, or suffer other accidents too horrible to contemplate. The idea is too fanciful for serious consideration. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: stuving on December 17, 2020, 00:14:27 From The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/edinburgh-experts-draw-plan-floating-tube-bridge-linking-scotland-and-northern-ireland-3067444) Quote ... "From an engineering perspective, an SFTB as a concept is very exciting," said Eoin MacDonald, who is working on the project proposal. "It has the potential to transform how long-distance sea crossings are tackled." That deserves a bit of periphrasis: "Me and my mates were in a bar last week, and one of us remembered reading about this idea - sounds fun, doesn't it? At least, it ought to grab a headline or two." This idea has been around for ages - those Victorian engineers were full of bright ideas - but no-one has ever built one. Not even a little one. Simpler structures are used for submarine engineering tasks, mostly in offshore oil, such as installing pipelines, but those are temporary. So please, kids, can we start with just a baby one, say a few hundred metres, and see how it goes in real life? Trying to take it as seriously as possible, I was surprised to see mention of floating supports. I thought the idea was to make the tunnel buoyant, and if it needs extra upforce to add it close to the tunnel. The last thing you want is stuff up on the surface, where the sea leaps around a lot, winds blow things about, and there are big dangerous things like ships. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: ellendune on December 17, 2020, 08:22:37 From The Scotsman (https://www.scotsman.com/lifestyle/edinburgh-experts-draw-plan-floating-tube-bridge-linking-scotland-and-northern-ireland-3067444) Quote ... "From an engineering perspective, an SFTB as a concept is very exciting," said Eoin MacDonald, who is working on the project proposal. "It has the potential to transform how long-distance sea crossings are tackled." Trying to take it as seriously as possible, I was surprised to see mention of floating supports. I thought the idea was to make the tunnel buoyant, and if it needs extra upforce to add it close to the tunnel. The last thing you want is stuff up on the surface, where the sea leaps around a lot, winds blow things about, and there are big dangerous things like ships. Yes, trying to take this seriously, but as an engineer, the more I think about an underwater bridge with a span that is several miles long, subject to strong tidal currents the more crackpot it seems. The lateral loads would be immense, even before you have allowed for impact from a submarine! The add in the unnecessary floats and you have added a huge uplift that would oscillate in rough weather - sheer madness. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on February 10, 2021, 14:40:04 Dated 1890 ... source unknown, but must be out of copyright ... proof there's no such thing as a "new idea"
(http://www.wellho.net/pix/it_1890.jpg) Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on March 01, 2021, 11:49:17 From the Belfast Telegraph (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/boris-johnsons-irish-sea-tunnels-and-roundabout-have-sunk-serious-plans-for-bridge-claims-professor-40142229.html). Has this been posted a month early?
Quote Boris Johnson's Irish Sea tunnels and roundabout have sunk serious plans for bridge claims professor Boris Johnson's plan to build three tunnels under the Irish Sea, with a roundabout underneath the Isle of Man, has put an end to any serious discussion about a road or rail crossing to Northern Ireland, according to one of the UK's leading architects. Professor Alan Dunlop, who drew up an earlier plan to construct a bridge from Scotland to Northern Ireland, has rubbished the Prime Minister's latest idea for a link. And the SDLP's Infrastructure Minister Nichola Mallon has written to the PM urging him to ditch the idea altogether. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Clan Line on March 01, 2021, 13:12:52 Boris Johnson's plan to build three tunnels under the Irish Sea, with a roundabout underneath the Isle of Man, Boris must have been to Tromso in Norway, there are a lot of tunnels under the city - including a large roundabout ! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ceo3dBITv5E Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Oxonhutch on March 01, 2021, 13:26:18 There is an undersea one in the Faroe Islands (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55195390). Deepest roundabout in the world I believe.
Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on March 01, 2021, 14:12:53 There is an undersea one in the Faroe Islands (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-55195390). Deepest roundabout in the world I believe. That's exactly the same picture that's used in the Belfast Telegraph Article. And here I was thinking that road sign was in Manx! Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: broadgage on March 01, 2021, 15:25:36 I remain doubtful as to the merits of undersea tunnels.
They are inherently vulnerable to fire and consequent loss of life. A long tunnel also has ongoing energy use for lighting, cooling and ventilation. A bridge would seem preferable since it is in the open air with no question of smoke building up. Ventilation is free, cooling not required, and rescue possible by sea or by air in case of an emergency. Intermediate supports could be combined with wind turbines. Another possibility is a causeway, with water turbines built in to generate power from tidal flows. If the channel tunnel was not already existing, I doubt that it would be built nowadays. A bridge crossing though would be a possibility. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: ellendune on March 01, 2021, 19:38:33 If the channel tunnel was not already existing, I doubt that it would be built nowadays. A bridge crossing though would be a possibility. The huge amount of shipping in the channel is what rules out a bridge, there is too much risk of a ship colliding with the bridge. That was of course the fate of the old Severn rail bridge. Regarding the Irish sea - A bridge would still have to avoid the Beaufort trench arms dump and would be a big risk is high winds, which are not uncommon in those parts. So it might be as unreliable as the ferry is now in bad weather. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on March 01, 2021, 23:04:40 Solution to the gauging issue:
Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: Clan Line on March 20, 2021, 10:02:37 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-north-east-orkney-shetland-56325106 Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on August 24, 2021, 21:51:15 From GE Plus (https://www.geplus.co.uk/news/network-rail-chair-to-assess-feasibility-of-irish-sea-tunnel-07-10-2020/) Quote Earlier this year Boris Johnson?s secretary of state for Scotland, Alister Jack, made the case for a tunnel to link the Scotland to Northern Ireland. At the time he said it would be cheaper to build and more efficient to use than a bridge. In 2019 Johnson proposed a bridge across the Irish Sea which was widely criticised. Just the man for a nonsense, will-never-happen bridge to nowhere. It seems we overlooked history here - there once was a bridge ... and I was at one end of it today Quote As both the Giant's Causeway and Fingal's Cave on Staffa are made of the same neat basalt columns, legend holds that they were the end pieces of a bridge built by the Irish giant Fionn mac Cumhaill (a.k.a. Finn McCool), so he could make it to Scotland where he was to fight Benandonner, his gigantic rival. (http://www.mtug.org.uk/lib/staffa_20210824_1.jpg) (http://www.wellho.net/pix/gcauseway1.jpg) I fear the problem with rebuilding this bridge, though, will be the onward link to Ulva, to Mull, and to the Scottish Mainland. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: ellendune on August 24, 2021, 22:00:54 Don't tell Boris he will have some hapless civil servant trying to track down Finn McCool to rebuilt it!
Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: MVR S&T on November 21, 2021, 22:00:46 The bridge idea is to be scrapped.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59368707 Wonder if this is yet another nail in the coffin of NI being part of the UK? Can I say that on this forum, or is that a political statement. Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: grahame on November 22, 2021, 03:56:22 Can I say that on this forum, or is that a political statement. Probably both. ;D Title: Re: Improving transport infrastructure - inc. Scotland to Northern Ireland tunnel Post by: stuving on December 01, 2021, 23:56:20 The bridge idea is to be scrapped. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-59368707 Wonder if this is yet another nail in the coffin of NI being part of the UK? Can I say that on this forum, or is that a political statement. While the news was widely announced, and we had a link to the Union Connectivity Review final report, that has nothing about the fixed link to Northern Ireland. Escaping from that document link finds the UCR page itself (https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/union-connectivity-review#news-uand-announcements), with some earlier documents and the feasibility report on the GB-NI fixed link (https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/1035650/a-fixed-link-between-great-britain-and-northern-ireland-technical-feasibility.pdf). As reported, this says it is feasible but its cost is exceeds the national supply of arms and legs. What surprises me is that the only design options considered are all tunnel and all bridge, though a bit of each is mentioned when comparing routes. Obviously they thought the submerged floating tube bridge (or more extreme exotica) not worth even dismissing. This page is printed from the "Coffee Shop" forum at http://gwr.passenger.chat which is provided by a customer of Great Western Railway. Views expressed are those of the individual posters concerned. Visit www.gwr.com for the official Great Western Railway website. Please contact the administrators of this site if you feel that content provided contravenes our posting rules ( see http://railcustomer.info/1761 ). The forum is hosted by Well House Consultants - http://www.wellho.net |