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All across the Great Western territory => Across the West => Topic started by: Adelante_CCT on November 16, 2020, 15:14:45



Title: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Adelante_CCT on November 16, 2020, 15:14:45
Apologies if posted elsewhere

https://www.rmt.org.uk/news/rmt-demands-withdrawal-of-patronising-gwr-hi-vis-cleaning-vests/

Quote
RMT Press Office:

RMT demands withdrawal of patronising and hypocritical Hi Vis cleaning vests issued to Great Western Railway cleaners

RAIL UNION RMT today demanded the withdrawal of Hi Vis vests issued to Great Western Railway cleaners employed by Servest emblazoned with the words "GWR Cleaning Heroes" which the union says are both patronising and hypocritical as they imply that the staff are direct GWR employees and well looked after when in fact they are contracted ‎out and have to fight every inch on pay and conditions.


The letter to the company from General Secretary Mick Cash says;


?I write with regards to the above matter and to raise my grave concerns over your company?s decision to introduce High Visibility Vests with the words ?GWR Cleaning Heroes? written on the back, prior to any consultations taking place with my Union Representatives.


?The RMT believes this ?statement? is not only patronising and totally inappropriate but will also expose my members to abuse and ridicule. Therefore, I demand that the HV vests are withdrawn immediately and that your company consult with my Representatives before any replacements are sourced.


?The HV vests are personal protective equipment (PPE) and should protect staff against health and safety risks at work. Your company?s choice of wording on the back of these HV vests does not provide any safe assurances to the staff expected to wear them. Why anybody believed that this was an acceptable ?statement? to place on PPE is outrageous.


?I trust you will give this matter your urgent attention and that you will immediately withdraw the HV vests and consult with my Representatives in the hope of agreeing to a suitable alternative.?



Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: eightonedee on November 16, 2020, 19:00:05
Hmm...

My immediate reaction to this was to lose any sympathy I had for brother Cash and the miserable time he seems to have endured recently with his bullying colleagues at RMT.

However cynical you might be, surely trying to give some acknowledgment of the contribution made by a section of the railway staff whose role is often overlooked should be welcomed, especially as my own (limited) experience and comments by others in this forum indicates that they have done a good job keeping trains clean and presentable in the current trying times?

Does GWR management need RMT permission to make a gesture like this? Shouldn't he be welcoming this instead?


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: onthecushions on November 16, 2020, 19:36:48

I believe that the current rules over HV clothing require the contractor's name to be on the back, not an TOC advert.

The big unions share responsibility with management and capital for much of our industrial decline and therefore for the rise of the low skill, casual service and gig economy. However, I agree with them about protesting against worsening conditions of the already low paid. Their bad record in the motor, shipbuilding and mining industries et al., has robbed them of the moral high ground needed to make the case.

OTC



Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: stuving on November 16, 2020, 19:54:08

I believe that the current rules over HV clothing require the contractor's name to be on the back, not an TOC advert.

The big unions share responsibility with management and capital for much of our industrial decline and therefore for the rise of the low skill, casual service and gig economy. However, I agree with them about protesting against worsening conditions of the already low paid. Their bad record in the motor, shipbuilding and mining industries et al., has robbed them of the moral high ground needed to make the case.

OTC

Rules? Who would be issuing rules about that?


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 16, 2020, 20:27:58
Beyond parody.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 16, 2020, 21:12:48
It seems pretty reasonable for the relevant TOC's name to be on the hi-viz. However, I do think there is a wider issue with calling people 'heroes' for doing their jobs. Several issues, really.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Electric train on November 17, 2020, 07:42:31

I believe that the current rules over HV clothing require the contractor's name to be on the back, not an TOC advert.


That is only a requirement for Sentinel Card holders, that is staff with Personal Track Safety, not sure it applied to station staff.


I believe there is some underlying tension between the Unions and ToCs regarding the contracts used for cleaners by some of the cleaning service suppliers. 

These jobs by their nature are often minimum wage and often zero hour contracts, whilst I am no fan boy of a number of the actions of the RMT but it should be remembered they are there to look after the interests of their members and railway employees in general.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Bob_Blakey on November 17, 2020, 19:00:25
My immediate reaction to this story was a hope that GWR and/or Servest would tell the RMT to get stuffed.

I do not regard it as any part of a trade union's remit to attempt to dictate how a company is run when the issue in question has no impact on employee's terms & conditions.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Gordon the Blue Engine on November 18, 2020, 14:02:57
I think the RMT has a fair point. 

Why did Servest not consult its employees about the new HV vests? The idea that you do not consult your employees on new initiatives in the workplace, whether it be working practices, new equipment or what the wear, is a bit outdated.   Would it not have been better for Servest to take to its employees with it - the employees would have felt more valued if they'd been involved, and happy employees are more productive.

I too would object to being labelled a "hero" for just doing my job.  It seems everyone has to be labelled a "hero" nowadays.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Marlburian on November 18, 2020, 16:56:34
... I too would object to being labelled a "hero" for just doing my job.  It seems everyone has to be labelled a "hero" nowadays.


My sentiments exactly. Hats off to cleaners for doing sometimes unpleasant work for low pay, but their efforts don't really compare with hospital staff, for example. The word "heroes" is badly overused and should be reserved for specific deeds of real courage, by service people, rescue personnel and the like.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: southwest on November 18, 2020, 17:19:58
The contractor is paid for by GWR, therefore the contractors indirectly work for GWR. The cleaning heroes bit might be a bit silly. But to be honest the RMT need to get a grip. Complaining about High Vis vest of GWR, Demanding wage increases in Scotrail these people clearly have too much time on their hands.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Electric train on November 18, 2020, 17:28:09
The contractor is paid for by GWR, therefore the contractors indirectly work for GWR. The cleaning heroes bit might be a bit silly. But to be honest the RMT need to get a grip. Complaining about High Vis vest of GWR, Demanding wage increases in Scotrail these people clearly have too much time on their hands.

The RMT are doing their job and that is what their members pay them to do


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Bmblbzzz on November 18, 2020, 17:47:06
... I too would object to being labelled a "hero" for just doing my job.  It seems everyone has to be labelled a "hero" nowadays.


My sentiments exactly. Hats off to cleaners for doing sometimes unpleasant work for low pay, but their efforts don't really compare with hospital staff, for example. The word "heroes" is badly overused and should be reserved for specific deeds of real courage, by service people, rescue personnel and the like.
I agree with the bit I've bolded, but I'm not sure about the rest of the sentence. That is to say, if your job is rescuing people from mountains or sinking ships, then those are not acts of heroism as such. Or more exactly, it doesn't help to be called a hero; it helps if people recognise that you have a demanding, critical and dangerous job and make sure you get the appropriate equipment, pay and so on. The same with cleaning trains, nursing, teaching, policing... jobs that deserve suitable pay, conditions, PPE, and respect, not trite praise and mass claps.

In practice lifeboat crew and similar are often volunteers, which complicates the job-hero relationship, but that doesn't apply to the specific case of cleaners.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 18, 2020, 18:18:59
The contractor is paid for by GWR, therefore the contractors indirectly work for GWR. The cleaning heroes bit might be a bit silly. But to be honest the RMT need to get a grip. Complaining about High Vis vest of GWR, Demanding wage increases in Scotrail these people clearly have too much time on their hands.

The RMT are doing their job and that is what their members pay them to do

I'd be genuinely interested in how many RMT members feel this is a priority and worthwhile use of their subs at the present time.

Inclined to agree with Southwest.



Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: southwest on November 20, 2020, 19:34:56
The contractor is paid for by GWR, therefore the contractors indirectly work for GWR. The cleaning heroes bit might be a bit silly. But to be honest the RMT need to get a grip. Complaining about High Vis vest of GWR, Demanding wage increases in Scotrail these people clearly have too much time on their hands.

The RMT are doing their job and that is what their members pay them to do

Complaining about a silly high vis and trying to increase wages on Scotrail that once they emergency measures run out will lead to redundancies. Yeah they are doing a cracking job  ;D


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Electric train on November 21, 2020, 08:29:04

Complaining about a silly high vis and trying to increase wages on Scotrail that once they emergency measures run out will lead to redundancies. Yeah they are doing a cracking job  ;D

Putting concerns of their members to an employer and putting in a request for higher wages on behalf of their members to and employer is the roll of a Trade Union.  In the end it comes down to how the the employer and union discuss them, if either fold their arms age get all huffy about it then nothing gets resolved.

99.9% of issues in the industry where management and unions meet are resolved amicably and without confrontation.

In the case of these Hi-vis vests the media have latched onto it


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: grahame on November 21, 2020, 09:13:19
99.9% of issues in the industry where management and unions meet are resolved amicably and without confrontation.

In the case of these Hi-vis vests the media have latched onto it

Agree with both. However, you can't 'blame' the media for latching on to it, bearing in mind the very strong press release (i.e. information to the media) put out by the RMT.  Would the media have picked it up has the matter been amicably discussed, with RMT members informed of the concerns and the outcome via a newsletter? Really doubt it!

With some RMT members (I speculate) being very upset indeed at the wording on the HiVis vests, perhaps the union management made the calculated decision to "go heavy" and be seen to be doing something, in order to indicate their concern and action to their members.   It may be part of a wider member relationship position - a helpful lever that lets them remind members that they're strongly there for them, even in these times where the headlines are so much covid and about everyone working together.

We should also remember that the RMT are a big union, and their putting resources into the HiVis jacket business does not mean that they are dropping any other activities - they are fully big enough to work in parallel on other working conditions, salaries, member support, and their own succession in senior union roles.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 21, 2020, 09:30:55

Complaining about a silly high vis and trying to increase wages on Scotrail that once they emergency measures run out will lead to redundancies. Yeah they are doing a cracking job  ;D



99.9% of issues in the industry where management and unions meet are resolved amicably and without confrontation.



That's akin to saying 99.9% of International incidents are resolved amicably but now and again we have World War Two.

You have to look at what happens where the Unions adopt a position and won't shift from it - it's that % which end in strikes/working to rule etc which cause the damage - take BBQ Sundays for example.

All too often Trade Unions justify any and every activity as "representing the membership", when the majority of the membership aren't interested - the number/% of members who can be bothered to take part in ballots for example is often very small.

Don't get me wrong - the Trade Union movement has achieved a huge amount in this country and elsewhere, but frankly this issue is resonant of those with too much time on their hands, and the media is quite justified in highlighting it - just as they are when "management" misbehave - I give you the coverage of Priti Patel.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: ellendune on November 21, 2020, 09:41:49
All too often Trade Unions justify any and every activity as "representing the membership", when the majority of the membership aren't interested - the number/% of members who can be bothered to take part in ballots for example is often very small.

Yes but so many things unions deal with only affect a very small number of their members, but for those affected it is a big deal. It is right that they take up their members case. I don't think RMT are proposing a nation al rail strike over this, but they do want to do something for those members affected who don't like this.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 21, 2020, 10:11:24
All too often Trade Unions justify any and every activity as "representing the membership", when the majority of the membership aren't interested - the number/% of members who can be bothered to take part in ballots for example is often very small.

Yes but so many things unions deal with only affect a very small number of their members, but for those affected it is a big deal. It is right that they take up their members case. I don't think RMT are proposing a nation al rail strike over this, but they do want to do something for those members affected who don't like this.

A fair point. Smaller numbers should never be disregarded. But neither should bigger pictures.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Electric train on November 21, 2020, 11:44:54

You have to look at what happens where the Unions adopt a position and won't shift from it - it's that % which end in strikes/working to rule etc which cause the damage - take BBQ Sundays for example.

There are times when management refuse to engage and just dictate likewise when a rep will not engage.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Trowres on November 22, 2020, 00:15:12
What was the intention of introducing the wording on the vests, anyway?

If to mislead the public about the status of the cleaning staff, or to make the employees feel better, it seems to have failed spectacularly.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 22, 2020, 08:19:33
What was the intention of introducing the wording on the vests, anyway?

If to mislead the public about the status of the cleaning staff, or to make the employees feel better, it seems to have failed spectacularly.


I suspect it was an attempt on behalf of GWR to create a bit of esprit de corps and remind the public of the vital role which cleaners play at this time - I recall reading recently that a number of trains and Tube trains had been analysed and no evidence of the virus was present, which would suggest that their efforts had been extremely diligent - some may say heroic even in that context?

Perhaps they should have anticipated that the RMT would respond in such a desk thumping, foot stamping way, or maybe they were a little naive in assuming that the usual cynicism was suspended for the duration?

 


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: ellendune on November 22, 2020, 08:25:32
Perhaps they should have anticipated that the RMT would respond in such a desk thumping, foot stamping way, or maybe they were a little naive in assuming that the usual cynicism was suspended for the duration?

I think it unlikely that RMT raised the issue without a complaint from their members. 

I suspect it was an attempt on behalf of GWR to create a bit of esprit de corps and remind the public of the vital role which cleaners play at this time - I recall reading recently that a number of trains and Tube trains had been analysed and no evidence of the virus was present, which would suggest that their efforts had been extremely diligent - some may say heroic even in that context?

Perhaps it demonstrates that such efforts only work in you actually engage with the people involved to see what would achieve that, rather than guessing. Failing to do so is patronising. 


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: TaplowGreen on November 22, 2020, 08:54:27
Perhaps they should have anticipated that the RMT would respond in such a desk thumping, foot stamping way, or maybe they were a little naive in assuming that the usual cynicism was suspended for the duration?

I think it unlikely that RMT raised the issue without a complaint from their members. 

I suspect it was an attempt on behalf of GWR to create a bit of esprit de corps and remind the public of the vital role which cleaners play at this time - I recall reading recently that a number of trains and Tube trains had been analysed and no evidence of the virus was present, which would suggest that their efforts had been extremely diligent - some may say heroic even in that context?

Perhaps it demonstrates that such efforts only work in you actually engage with the people involved to see what would achieve that, rather than guessing. Failing to do so is patronising. 

Perhaps it demonstrates very effectively that the parodies of certain Trade Union activists by Monty Python, Not the Nine O'Clock News etc prove that the best satire is based in reality?


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: southwest on November 23, 2020, 00:45:46
What was the intention of introducing the wording on the vests, anyway?

If to mislead the public about the status of the cleaning staff, or to make the employees feel better, it seems to have failed spectacularly.



How is it misleading? GWR pay the contractor for a contract to hire staff and manage them. Ultimately they still work for GWR. Quite frankly they should be thankful they have a job, as a lot of people would quite happily take their place.

I have my own opinion on the staff grumbling about a his vis but I will keep it to myself.  I've worked for big international company under a contract role run by another I had no issue with it, as long as I was paid on time, treated well I didn't care who's branded uniform I wore.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: grahame on November 23, 2020, 09:14:13
There are differences between HiVis for safety, HiVis to bring staff or volunteers to the attention of the public (a uniform to make them clearly available to help customers), and HiVis to point out to the public that the person inside the uniform is special / noble / etc.   In the latter case, it might be a proud badge for some, but an embarrassment and publicity they would wish to avoid for many, and should not be forced on people or a required element of their job.    Writing from personal thoughts when I wear HiVis ...


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: southwest on November 29, 2020, 19:34:00
There are differences between HiVis for safety, HiVis to bring staff or volunteers to the attention of the public (a uniform to make them clearly available to help customers), and HiVis to point out to the public that the person inside the uniform is special / noble / etc.   In the latter case, it might be a proud badge for some, but an embarrassment and publicity they would wish to avoid for many, and should not be forced on people or a required element of their job.    Writing from personal thoughts when I wear HiVis ...

I quite agree you but the union statement seems to be that they have more of an issue with it having GWR on it more than the hero bit.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Electric train on November 30, 2020, 07:03:34
I quite agree you but the union statement seems to be that they have more of an issue with it having GWR on it more than the hero bit.

Perhaps that's because it gives the impression that GWR employ them directly.   

Branding should be honest - "Company working on behalf of GWR"  or "Company working in partnership with GWR"


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: the void on November 30, 2020, 10:17:27
I quite agree you but the union statement seems to be that they have more of an issue with it having GWR on it more than the hero bit.

Perhaps that's because it gives the impression that GWR employ them directly.   

Branding should be honest - "Company working on behalf of GWR"  or "Company working in partnership with GWR"

It does, on the front of the vest.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: Henry on January 06, 2021, 13:45:00

 I'd have thought the RMT would have commented on the issue of the cleaning contractors
 having to take annual leave to receive any pay for Xmas Day/Boxing Day. Was I naive to
 think companies paid worker's for Bank Holidays ?


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: plymothian on January 06, 2021, 14:00:23
Yes, you are a bit naive.  There is no legal statute that states that public holidays are to be given as paid holiday

Quote
Bank holidays

Bank or public holidays do not have to be given as paid leave.

An employer can choose to include bank holidays as part of a worker?s statutory annual leave.

https://www.gov.uk/holiday-entitlement-rights

Even train crew etc have 2 annual leave days taken out of their entitlement for Christmas and Boxing Days.


The hi-viz jackets seem to have been dropped now anyway as none of the cleaners are wearing them.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: IndustryInsider on January 06, 2021, 14:04:12
I'd have thought the RMT would have commented on the issue of the cleaning contractors having to take annual leave to receive any pay for Xmas Day/Boxing Day. Was I naive to think companies paid worker's for Bank Holidays ?

They pick their fights.  Generally if it's written into their existing contracts the RMT, and other railway unions, won't get too involved.  Witness Driver Only Operation (DOO) which they are extremely resistant to any attempts to expand, but don't really try to change it where it has already been instigated.  As plymouthian says, many grades of railway staff have to take annual leave for Xmas/Boxing Day, drivers included.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: eXPassenger on January 06, 2021, 17:27:39
At all the companies I worked for my holiday entitlement was for 'x days' which included bank holidays.


Title: Re: RMT Demands withdrawal of patronising GWR hi vis cleaning vests
Post by: ellendune on January 06, 2021, 18:24:19
At all the companies I worked for my holiday entitlement was for 'x days' which included bank holidays.

There is a legal minimum number of holidays - I think it is 28 days per year.  Some companies, who always close for bank holidays deduct these from holiday entitlement; others, especially those who are open on bank holidays, give the whole entitlement and require people to take leave on bank holidays unless they are required to work.  I don't think it is any reflection on the companies on which way they do it. What matters is how much leave they give.



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