Great Western Coffee Shop

From The BBC (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-cornwall-55279468), at the risk of starting an incendiary thread.


Cornwall has (my understanding) been a consistant and significant net beneficiary of funding via the EU over the years, and on purely financial terms the decision to leave the EU will leave them worse off.   Of course, EU membership or lack of it is about more than just money, so this is just one factor which needed to be weighed up.  Cornwall voted "leave" so there is no realistic option for them to say "but we didn't want to go but were dragged by the rest of the UK".

There are a number of excellent public transport schemes underway in Cornwall, and with the zero carbon agenda much work on the horizon - electric trains (OHLE) to Penzance and electric trains (battery) to Looe and to St Ives ...

It was good of the EU to spend so much on Cornwall; money Britain had given to the EU in the first place.

I am sure all the second home owners, in places like St Ives, St Mawes, Newquay etc, and celebrities benefitted greatly from all the improvements.

Is that incendiary enough!

Devon did get a few (6 services, 1 train) euro trains running between Paignton and Newton Abbot

I shall try to be as non-incendiary as possible ;D


This is a well rehearsed argument put forward in some quarters but it doesnt really look at the whole picture. The Regional Development budget is/ was designed to give assistance to the most needy areas in the EU, not unlike the way that national governments give money to their own regions for many reasons. Governments collect lots of money to spend on various things.

In another post on another thread I recently mentioned the dual carriageway that now runs all the way from Redruth to Exeter. So by extension one could eaily say It was good of the government to spend so much on Cornwall's roads; money Cornwall had given to the government in the first place" but it hasnt got the same ring to it has it? Althogh, having now written that, Im not sure that that project wasn't funded by th EU and, if it was, I wonder whether it would have been done had Whitehall been the ones dishing out the brass?

As I see it, the making of Regional Development Aid an EU function rather than a domestic one is that it takes the local politicking out of the equation; areas get the money because they need it and not because they have marginal constituencies or it is in the seat of some important minister. Other political examples are available.

On what the future holds for Cornwall post-Brexit my money is staying put in my pocket and Im not even going to walk past a betting shop, because two completely opposing scenarios spring to mind:

1. If Cornwall is, as it currentl seems to be, full of safe tory seats, they wont be getting very much; and

2. If they find themseves worse off Cornwall, like other needy areas of the country, are likely to thank Boris Johnson for Brexit in exacty the same way as the electorate thanked Winston Churchill in the 1945 election.

A thread for being incendiary? Here's my petrol on the flames:
Alan Bennett
He probably said that before the internet, so I think we could take it to encompass some online reading; maybe this forum?

Er, not quite.
Dual carriageway from Camborne to Chiverton roundabout (turn right for Truro).
Single road from Chiverton to Carland Cross roundabout.
Thence dual to Exeter and on up.....
Planning stages going through for dualling between Chiverton and Carland - once completed it WILL be dualled between Exeter and Camborne, but that won't be until (maybe) December 2022.

https://assets.highwaysengland.co.uk/roads/road-projects/A30+Carland+Cross/A30+newsletter+-+Issue+7.pdf
 
https://highwaysengland.co.uk/our-work/south-west/a30-chiverton-to-carland-cross/

Cornwall was a Lib/Dem stronghold and the country fell out of love with the 1945 Labour government and Churchill was elected in 1951 despite or because of creating the NHS, nationalising the railways, steel and coal.

We have to remember why the old EEC was invented was to stop France and Germany fighting each other so all the rules are bent to favour them and  now as the EU forces other member states to buy their goods at inflated prices due to the high tariffs they impose on outsiders. It's one giant protection racket. De Gaulle vetoed our entry a couple of times because he knew we would never conform. 

As I see it, there's no point in answering this question with anything other than "we shall see." For better or worse, not only Cornwall but also the rest of the UK will soon discover whether those "sunlit uplands" were nothing more than a ?sd-induced nostalgia trip or if "project fear" was indeed baseless scaremongering. Up till now, it's been about visions; in 2024, it'll be time for the voters to pass their verdict on the reality, as defined by the current Government in the form of whatever arrangement with the EU that it eventually settles on.

PS - Robin Summerhill, there was indeed European involvement in the A30 upgrade.
https://www.cornwallislesofscillygrowthprogramme.org.uk/projects/a30-carland-chiverton-cross-development-phase/

NB Although the county as a whole voted Leave, one of the 6 parliamentary constituencies (Truro & Falmouth) voted Remain.



 


 

 

Amongst the most important EU investments in Cornwall were to create the University in Falmouth, develop a series of skills and innovation centres, support major developments in agri-food and some serious redevelopment in Camborne-Redruth, not to forget the Mainline Resignalling and capacity enhancements which has given a half hourly service on the GWR mainline, and associated growth on the branch lines. Sadly the Brexiteers failed to recognise how much transformation of the Cornish economy occured as a result of European investment.

Like the UK Brexit vote, this will split the forum vote as well.
I think Boris won the election vote by a simple theme of "Let's get it done"! The argument had gone on too long and everyone was sick and fed up with the stalemate.
Whilst the country was divided, what finally swung it the Boris way was the total indecision of Parliament over several years.
Yes, Cornwall voted leave; as said above, only time will tell if that was right or wrong. 
The country is STILL split with many being certain that the world will end for the UK very shortly.
Maybe Cornwall will soon end up bankrupt and closed for business; only time will tell  :) :)

All that investment by the EU and still one of the poorest areas in country.

About seven years ago I went on holiday to Playa del Retamar, Almeria, in a hotel used by 90% Spanish families, on a pilgrimage to Fort Bravo/Texas Holywood and saw new roads, new hospital and new housing. Nobody lived there; they were empty.

To a large extent it will depend on whether Boris and his mates are serious about the stated across the board 'levelling up'; politically it may be decided that only the former 'red wall' constituencies in the Midlands & North require significant additional financing to maintain the newly established voting patterns while there could be a calculation that Cornwall will continue to (largely) support the Conservatives regardless of how they are treated. Even in Boris' electorally strong position that is not a risk I would entertain.

One thing I do think however is certain; earlier this year BBC2 ran a 6-part series called 'Cornwall: This Fishing Life' which, in my opinion, indicated very strongly that large numbers of the Cornish will withdraw their political support if the 'authorities' do not do what they consider to be the right thing as regards fishing management & second home ownership.   

Throwing large rock into the pond to see where the ripples go.

There seems to be  a lot of talk about Sovereignty and loss thereof. It seems to me thay we have already lost any Sovereignty we might have had to CORVID, as has the EU and the rest of world.  We are under the severest restrictions ever in peacetime

IMO any sensible government would kick BREXIT into the long grass and get on with getting our lives back to normal By which I mean being able to be in confined space with a group of people to listen to a talk and go down the pub after or even getting on a train to London to have lunch with a mate.

It's crazy to attempt BREXIT "Deal or No Deal" in the middle of the XMAS New Year break in the middle of a pandemic. The government should be working flat out to work out on how to contain CORVID. They probably should be co-operating with the EU and the WHO on this rather making stupid insulting comments. Unless they are using BREXIT as a distraction from the virus and their. inability to control it.

The farmers, EU fruit pickers, hauliers, public transport workers, supermarkets, power workers, sewerage workers etc have worked miracles keeping as fed warm and hygenic. We need to support the NHS and Education not have to worry about tarrifs on imported food stuffs.

As Harold Macmillian might have said when asked about what knocks a govrnemnt off course. Events Dear Boy Events. i think CORVID might be classed as EVENT.

I think you are right, BUT nowadays just how many voters in Cornwall are concerned with 'Cornish' issues, by which I mean issues such as farming, fishing, second-home ownership/housing, economic support/development (be it from the EU or Westminster...) is something I am not so sure about. Just 10% of the population identified as 'Cornish' on the 2011 census. I wonder whether the remainder are 'Kernocentric' or 'Anglocentric' or 'Britocentric' in their views - or even if a geographical/ethnic identity' filter comes into play at all.   

The census form does not have a tick box for Cornish - it has to be written in on the box for other.

There has been a long running campaign to make it a choice tick box, but Westminster appear to not want to recognise Cornwall's constitutional status as a Duchy or it's inhabitants as Cornish, in spite of Cornish being recognised as a national minority

I agree wholeheartedly. The facts of the matter are that whether you are one of the 17m who voted to leave, the 16m who voted to remain, or the 13m registered electors who didn?t appear to give a toss either way because they didn?t vote (https://www.indy100.com/news/brexit-leave-remain-52-48-per-cent-voter-turnout-electoral-register-charts-7399226 ) , we are where we are.

Thanks fir clarifying the position regarding EU funding for Cornish road improvements; I haven?t driven down there since 2011 and after I?d written it I thought I remembered seeing EU funding signs but I couldn?t be sure.

Thanks also to GBM for clarifying the Carland Cross/ Redruth matter. In the earlier post I referred to I said Carling Cross near Redruth, and I abbreviated that in my later post. Clearly I won?t be doing that again ;D

I will come back later to further examine some of the suspect claims and misinformation from another poster ? unless the thread gets locked first!

Proper job!  ;D

We could also add a fair few of the 1.3 million or so British citizens living in the E.U. (and therefore directly affected by the result) who were unable to vote in the 2016 referendum because successive British governments (Blair/Brown and Cameron) decided they should no longer retain their voting rights.... IMO, it probably would have made the result even closer had they been given a vote but I doubt it would have actually produced a different outcome in the end. 

Anyway, as you say, things are what they are...

 

 

 

The government and opposition of 2016 all campaigned to remain. Dire consequences from Cameron and Osborne if we vote to leave. They lost.

Boris got a big majority in 2019. Remainer's, Lib/dems in a big way, lost and we are where we are.

All incontrovertible .... For info, 5/6 MPs in Cornwall campaigned for Leave, the exception being Sarah Newton, the MP for Truro & Falmouth.

Cornwall voting the leave the EU is quite possibly the greatest example of cutting off the nose to spite the face in history.......................still, fish eh?  ::)

I suppose the main reason this issue gets people so hot under the collar is that this wasn't like a General Election where you can change your mind a few years later if it doesn't work out. This isn't a trial separation. Britain is out of the EU for a generation.

I suspect my children will see England (or most of it) rejoin the EU (in whatever form it takes) in about 30 years' time. I doubt the terms will be anything like as good as we had as part of Britain, but we are, as others have said, where we are, and in a few years time we will be where we will be.

Not just fish. Think of the new markets there will be in bendy bananas and curly cucumbers...

.....and for the supply of software to enable businesses to supply goods and services to get through the new customs and regulatory barriers when doing business with the 400m market just 18 miles away....

...not to mention all the new jobs created in customs and immigration.   

Just think of all those lorries queuing at Dover.  Dover handles 1.8m lorries a year, most of them from countries in the EU and beyond and not British based. I would think they would want them back to make more deliveries.

And to get back to Cornwall; all these road and rail improvements the EU paid for have made the people poorer and the property more expensive. Odd that?

Only the improvements the EU paid for or all of them? Only the Cornish poorer or all of the people (in Europe), even the home owners whose property has increased in value?

On another railway forum I subscribe to, one that concentrates on the Southern Railway, its successors and predecessors, I have a nemesis. This man takes the view that the Southern can do nothing wrong and the Western nothing right. No matter what the issue the problem is, the fault lies with the vindictive western region management or those emissaries of Beelzebub himself in the closure unit at Bristol in the Beeching era.

According to him, for example, the single track width bridge where the LSW line passes under the M5 was a vindictive present from the WR; arch-demon Gerry Fiennes single-handedly decimated the former SR lines west of Exeter; if the SR had kept control there would still be a Waterloo to Bude service; the WR were being callous to passengers when management told the signalman at Challow to stop looping the Cheltenham Spa Express for a special stop if their booked train was late, and so on. Never before in my life have I come across somebody with more confirmation bias than the sea has salt.

Until I witnessed the pre-Brexit referendum campaigning, that is...

So to get back to the plot, please put me out of my ignorance and explain how imports are supposed to get here, especially highly perishable ones like fresh food, if not brought by foreign trucks on ferries or through the tunnel? (Clue ? a catapult in Calais won?t work for soft fruit and vegetables and won?t do white electrical goods a lot of good either)

Similarly, can you explain how EU funding has made Cornwall poorer, and equally importantly, how would Cornwall have been richer if the EU had kept their filthy lucre in their pockets?

I look forward to reading your reply.

I never said the lorries would not come but they have to go back and if the EU decide to tie them in red tape and delay them at Dover then their owners will not be happy as a lorry not travelling is not making money or will the EU be vindictive enough to only delay British lorries.  As for catapaults, that's a fantasy of yours or some sarcastic point trying to be made.

The filthy lucre of the EU is money from net contributors to the EU such as Britain, France, Germany, and the Netherlands.
They have no money of their own.

Your precise words were:

Just think of all those lorries queuing at Dover.  Dover handles 1.8m lorries a year, most of them from countries in the EU and beyond and not British based. I would think they would want them back to make more deliveries.

On reading them again in the context of your reply I see that you didnt perhaps mean whst I thought you meant, which came across to me that you wanted to see the end of continental lorries on UK roads. So that clears that up.

My remark about catapults was neither a fantasy nor sarcasm, it was meant as surreal humour, in much the same vein as The Goons or Paul Mertons early work.

As regards border controls, all countries that have borders have border controls in place unless they have reciprocal arrangements. The UK had reciprocal arrangements when it was i the EU and part of the customs union and single market.

When it left the EU the UK also chose to leave the customs union and single market. It did not have to. So now the EU reintroduces border controls that are only there because of the UKs sovereign choice, and the EU are the ones being vindictive.

Hmmm...

As regards Cornwall and funding, no government body has any money of its own so I fail to see how this explains why Cornwall is any poorer. Even if the A30 dualing had been down to Parish Councils (surreal humour again) they would still have to raise the money from their tax payers

The government have said they would not hold up EU lorries coming into Britain, but if the EU decide to only let their own lorries back and hold up British lorries with red tape then that is vindictive.

If the EU is so confident why are they still talking. What do they want? Money.

No I don't think they want money.  That seems to be the obsession of the members of the ERG.  No the EU wish to maintain the integrity of the single market.  If you want the benefit you have to play by the rules. What they don't want is an ultra low cost, low regulation country on their doorstep undercutting them with poor worker and environmental standards. 

^That's EU speak when many Euro countries have lower standards than Britain. No mink farming in Britain. We can't ban live exports. EU funding of bullfighting in Spain. Fox hunting in France.

Aside from those issues which have little impact on international trade. Yes we have high standards at the moment. I was thinking about the ERG threats to retaliate on EU by abolishing regulations on financial services, health and safety, environmental pollution and other areas which could dramatically reduce industry's costs at the expense of the environment (including the EU environment) and our people.  What was the phrase "Singapore on Thames"?

In making those threats they may have made a deal more difficult, because those issues became a more likely prospect.  Maybe that is what they wanted.