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All across the Great Western territory => Introductions and chat => Topic started by: grahame on December 19, 2020, 18:24:16



Title: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 19, 2020, 18:24:16
A new thread - fresh lick of paint, 19th December 2020, for travel advice.  A fast changing few days ...

Headline No. 1 ... if in doubt, don't!

Headline No. 2 ... if you MUST,
- cover your face with a mask
- space out / social distancing
- clean hands often and thoroughly

Headline No. 3 ... public transport is basically SAFE (awaiting confrirmation with the new Covid variant)
- but make sure that what you're travelling TO is legal, safe, open, necessary

Something that may get me into hot water.   Please assume that YOU are infectious when you travel; space from others not only for what you might pick up, but also what you may give to them.  AND THAT MEANS that if you are not wearing a mask (because you and a group that can claim exemption, and need to claim it) you should "double-space" to show your understanding and protect everyone else.

From Dr Chris Witty this afternoon - "If you've packed you bag for Christmas, unpack it!" - happy to quote the propaganda if it's right - but that doesn't feel like propaganda - feels like common sense.  Look forward to NEXT Christmas, and the one after that ...


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: CyclingSid on December 20, 2020, 08:51:43
For those of us in Tier 4 the following applies:
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home (https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-4-stay-at-home)
I can see cycling round Reading for long will make me feel like a hamster in wheel.


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 20, 2020, 09:25:20
A new thread - fresh lick of paint, 19th December 2020, for travel advice.  A fast changing few days ...

Headline No. 1 ... if in doubt, don't!

Headline No. 2 ... if you MUST,
- cover your face with a mask
- space out / social distancing
- clean hands often and thoroughly

Headline No. 3 ... public transport is basically SAFE (awaiting confrirmation with the new Covid variant)
- but make sure that what you're travelling TO is legal, safe, open, necessary

Something that may get me into hot water.   Please assume that YOU are infectious when you travel; space from others not only for what you might pick up, but also what you may give to them.  AND THAT MEANS that if you are not wearing a mask (because you and a group that can claim exemption, and need to claim it) you should "double-space" to show your understanding and protect everyone else.

From Dr Chris Witty this afternoon - "If you've packed you bag for Christmas, unpack it!" - happy to quote the propaganda if it's right - but that doesn't feel like propaganda - feels like common sense.  Look forward to NEXT Christmas, and the one after that ...

I'll try to be a bit more succinct (no offence)

Unless it is absolutely necessary to travel based on the prescribed criteria, don't travel. It isn't safe. Turkey will be available at Easter too, and more people will be alive to enjoy it if you stay put now.


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 20, 2020, 10:01:35
I agree the message.

May I just check in pedant mode a few of your words.

... don't travel. It isn't safe. ....

My understanding is that travel by train, or bus - with appropriate social distancing regimes, cleaning and masks, has been evaluated and it's been shown that the travel is safe.  It's what people do when they get "there" that is dangerous - going into homes, crowded places, etc.    Now - that was before the new strain in the South East which is said to spread faster; do you have any information / evidence that the precautions again "properly" spaced and masked trains and buses are ineffective against this new strain which leads you to your "travel isn't safe" conclusion?

Have no doubt - I am still discouraging optional travel - but want to be clear on whether travel itself by train has become dangerous.



Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: CyclingSid on December 20, 2020, 10:14:15
Quote
If you need to travel, walk or cycle where possible, and plan ahead and avoid busy times and routes on public transport. This will allow you to practise social distancing while you travel.
From the above link.


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: Electric train on December 20, 2020, 11:02:28

Have no doubt - I am still discouraging optional travel - but want to be clear on whether travel itself by train has become dangerous.

Optional travel is not an option in Tier 4, essential journeys only

For example travelling by train from Weymouth to Norwich via London is not permitted unless its for work, education or medical appointment


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 20, 2020, 11:29:58

Have no doubt - I am still discouraging optional travel - but want to be clear on whether travel itself by train has become dangerous.

Optional travel is not an option in Tier 4, essential journeys only

For example travelling by train from Weymouth to Norwich via London is not permitted unless its for work, education or medical appointment

Yes, appreciated the cross-London issue.  Gives rise to other questions though...
Basingstoke (Hants, tier 2) to Oxford (Oxon, tier 2) - allowed or not because Reading is in tier 4 - no change of trains
Basingstoke (Hants, tier 2) to Swindon (tier 2) - allowed or not because Reading is in tier 4 - with change of trains
Note - I am not promoting these journeys, just asking about permissibility.

Useful confirmation but no answer to my main question - "has the train with social distancing, masks, cleaning, etc, moved from a safe way of getting around to being unsafe with the new more easily transmittable variant?"

Press and publicity is strongly on tier 4 this morning - and that is the news - it's new, and it applies to a lot of people and the area in which the national decision makers themselves live and work for the most part.  It's also strongly on the reduction of the Christmas concession (which IMHO looked risky in the first place) down from 5 to 1 day - and that a day when no public transport is running.  However, Tiers 2, 3 and 1 life carries on to the same rules as those tiers, so we are not looking at a ban on all optional travel and indeed there is encourgament to undertake an element of none-essential life to keep economy and business ticking over; education too except it's largely stopped until the new year.







Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: Electric train on December 20, 2020, 15:21:42

Have no doubt - I am still discouraging optional travel - but want to be clear on whether travel itself by train has become dangerous.

Optional travel is not an option in Tier 4, essential journeys only

For example travelling by train from Weymouth to Norwich via London is not permitted unless its for work, education or medical appointment

Yes, appreciated the cross-London issue.  Gives rise to other questions though...
Basingstoke (Hants, tier 2) to Oxford (Oxon, tier 2) - allowed or not because Reading is in tier 4 - no change of trains
Basingstoke (Hants, tier 2) to Swindon (tier 2) - allowed or not because Reading is in tier 4 - with change of trains
Note - I am not promoting these journeys, just asking about permissibility.

Useful confirmation but no answer to my main question - "has the train with social distancing, masks, cleaning, etc, moved from a safe way of getting around to being unsafe with the new more easily transmittable variant?"

Press and publicity is strongly on tier 4 this morning - and that is the news - it's new, and it applies to a lot of people and the area in which the national decision makers themselves live and work for the most part.  It's also strongly on the reduction of the Christmas concession (which IMHO looked risky in the first place) down from 5 to 1 day - and that a day when no public transport is running.  However, Tiers 2, 3 and 1 life carries on to the same rules as those tiers, so we are not looking at a ban on all optional travel and indeed there is encourgament to undertake an element of none-essential life to keep economy and business ticking over; education too except it's largely stopped until the new year.


From the Government website for Tier 3 https://www.gov.uk/guidance/tier-3-very-high-alert#travel

You should stay local and avoid travelling outside of your local area, meaning your village or town, or part of a city, where possible. People should continue to travel for reasons such as work, education, medical attention or caring responsibilities.

You should still avoid travelling outside your tier 3 area other than for the reasons like those above, and reduce the number of journeys you make wherever possible.

For Tier 2 it says You can travel through a Tier 3 area as a part of a longer journey; but makes no mention of Tier 4


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: Jamsdad on December 20, 2020, 21:10:32
Still not clear how much of this is legal prohibition as opposed to  "guidance". The new Health Regualtions ( i.e law) have not ( Sunday ) yet been published.


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 20, 2020, 21:42:39
Still not clear how much of this is legal prohibition as opposed to  "guidance". The new Health Regualtions ( i.e law) have not ( Sunday ) yet been published.

A very interesting comment ... I noted an article in the Spectator (https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/what-does-the-tier-4-law-on-travelling-actually-say-) that hints at an answer.

Quote
As is perhaps inevitable when advance notice is given of a stable door shutting, the response of many in London last night was to head for the railway stations and get out of town whilst they could.

The reaction to this has been condemnation. The Health Secretary Matt Hancock described the scenes at stations as 'totally irresponsible'. The Transport Secretary Grant Shapps weighed in, not just with condemnation, but hinting at a police response. He said 'If you are in Tier 4, the law means you must stay at home and you cannot stay overnight away from home'; 'Follow the guidance and please do not come to a station unless you are permitted to travel. Extra British Transport Police officers are being deployed to ensure only those who need to take essential journeys can travel safely.' Peter Hendy, the government?s 'Christmas travel tsar' (who knew?) said that 'additional BTP officers are in place to ensure only essential journeys take place'.

What does the law say?

When I refer to law, I mean ...

[snip]

From the get-go, despite having draconian powers at its fingertips, the government seems to have resolved to overstate its exercise of those powers in published guidance, rather than taking the more obvious step of passing laws that matched what it wished for.


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: Bob_Blakey on December 21, 2020, 07:50:08
Government travel advice has now been updated. For us (Exeter-Tier 2) it now says 'where necessary, you can travel through tier 3 and tier 4 areas as part of a longer journey' so our return on 27/12 via London will now be OK - as long as EMR & GWR don't cancel the services!


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: Jamsdad on December 21, 2020, 11:50:26
A further interesting point from the Essex Police and Crime Commissioner re Tier 4. "It is not illegal to travel. It is illegal to leave your house other than for the 39 specific reasons to do so." Police can check your reason for being out but they cannot prevent you from travel !


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 21, 2020, 12:54:41
My understanding is that travel by train, or bus - with appropriate social distancing regimes, cleaning and masks, has been evaluated and it's been shown that the travel is safe.  It's what people do when they get "there" that is dangerous - going into homes, crowded places, etc.    Now - that was before the new strain in the South East which is said to spread faster; do you have any information / evidence that the precautions again "properly" spaced and masked trains and buses are ineffective against this new strain which leads you to your "travel isn't safe" conclusion?

An update - for the new strain, I'm told that  information is currently incomplete as to how effective social distancing is.  Early days, being evaluated.  My sources are reasonable but not always accurate, but whatever the accuracy it's sensible to only travel if you need to, and keep any travel local if you possibly can.


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 21, 2020, 16:00:13
I hope Chris Rea is a student ...

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/students_20201220.jpg)


Title: Re: Travel advise - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: bobm on December 22, 2020, 20:06:24
I hope Chris Rea is a student ...

(http://www.mbob.co.uk/rforum/boris.png)


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 22, 2020, 23:56:30
Drove past Spencer's Sports and Social Club in Melksham today ... open and doing the first round of Covid vacinations. We may have infections climbing at the moment - and we need to take precautions to stop it climbing just as much as we can, but soon we're going to go over the crest and like a rollercoaster it may drop rapidly.

My best wishes to our MRUG elder statesman and his wife who had their injection today. And I look forward to seeing him - in real life - at the MRUG AGM on the approaches to next summer.  His words and wisdom, and those of our secretary and the rest of the team, will be so valuable as we open the shutters, brush off the cobwebs, and promote sustainable and enjoyable travel some time next year.

For the moment - message to all. Only travel if you need to. Keep it local. Wear your mask. Wash your paws. Socially distance.  You know it makes sense now that we have the flicker of the light at the end of the tunnel visible ahead.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 23, 2020, 15:50:11
Looking to make sense of tiers from Saturday ... subject to correction and I will keep adding services.
However, it makes sense not to travel unless you have to.

4   Paddington
4    Reading
4   Didcot
3    Swindon
2   Chippenham
2 or 3   Bath Spa
3   Bristol

4   Paddington
4    Reading
4   Newbury
4   Hungerford
4   Kintbury
2   Bedwyn
2   Pewsey
2   Westbury
3   Frome
3   Bruton
3   Castle Cary
3   Taunton
2   Tiverton Parkway and beyond

4   Portsmouth
4    Southampton
4   Romsey
2   Salisbury
2    Warminster
2   Westbury
2   Trowbridge
2   Bradford-on-Avon
2 or 3   Bath
2 or 3   Keynsham
3   Bristol Temple Meads
3   Filton Abbey Wood
Wales   Welsh Rules

I am unclear on Bath - is it in with Somerset in 3, or remaining in 2??  Will come back to edit. Edit - almost certainly tier 2 for Bath and North East Somerset. That's a significant worry with regard to people travelling in from Somerset and South Gloucestershire catchments.

The Coffee Shop is virtual and we can mix online here.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: TonyN on December 23, 2020, 16:13:33
Official postcode check to find which tier you are in
https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions (https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions)


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 23, 2020, 16:24:01
Official postcode check to find which tier you are in
https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions (https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions)

Thanks ... utter confusion for Bath.  Official (I think) map showing 3, Postcode checker showing 2 ....  Taking a Swindon Postcode as a comparator, the checker correctly says 2 moving to 3, and map shows 3.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: eXPassenger on December 23, 2020, 16:40:49
Official postcode check to find which tier you are in
https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions (https://www.gov.uk/find-coronavirus-local-restrictions)

Thanks ... utter confusion for Bath.  Official (I think) map showing 3, Postcode checker showing 2 ....  Taking a Swindon Postcode as a comparator, the checker correctly says 2 moving to 3, and map shows 3.

Hancock stated that Bristol and Somerset were in tier 3 and never mentioned N Somerset or BANES.  The BBC now states ...Somerset (including N Somerset) is in tier 3 and is silent on BANES.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: bobm on December 23, 2020, 16:54:50
He did mention North Somerset.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 23, 2020, 16:56:21
Hancock stated that Bristol and Somerset were in tier 3 and never mentioned N Somerset or BANES.  The BBC now states ...Somerset (including N Somerset) is in tier 3 and is silent on BANES.

Evidence is suggesting tier 2 for BaNES more and more to me ... updated map:

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/tiers20201226.jpg)

I will add it as the backdrop to maps once I'm sure.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 23, 2020, 17:00:01
He did mention North Somerset.

And North Somerset show as tier 3 on the map ... but North Somerset is not Bath and North EAST Somerset!

The people of Frome (Somerset) are revolting - picked up from social media:
Quote
This is ridiculous for people like myself who live in Frome. We are about 2 miles from the Wiltshire boarder. 9 miles from the bath and north east Somerset border.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: PhilWakely on December 23, 2020, 18:19:03
Evidence is suggesting tier 2 for BaNES more and more to me ...

He did mention North Somerset.

And North Somerset show as tier 3 on the map ... but North Somerset is not Bath and North EAST Somerset!

If you put a BaNES postcode into the gov.uk site for 'What tier am I in, it shows as Tier 2 and not changing. If you put a (say) Clevedon or Templecombe postcode into the same page, it tells you that the tier is changing soon. So, you can safely assume that BaNES will remain as Tier 2


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: bobm on December 23, 2020, 18:31:04
Why would anyone put a Templecombe postcode in?   ;D


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: JayMac on December 23, 2020, 19:09:08
Why would anyone put a Templecombe postcode in?   ;D

Like those in Frome, I'm also somewhat inconvenienced by having close neighbouring counties in different tiers. Templecombe is just 2.5 miles from the Dorset border, and 8 miles from the Wiltshire border.

I use Stalbridge in Dorset a lot for shopping. There's an excellent independent supermarket there (Dike & Sons) full of local produce. Stalbridge also has a proper butcher. Decent Chinese and pizza/kebab takeaways. Also has my nearest petrol station.

Then there's Sherborne, with the only Sainsburys/Argos in the immediate area. Sherborne also has some scenic dog walking areas - the two castles and their grounds, and the meadow near the station. Not forgetting all its great independent retailers.

I can no longer visit those neighbouring Dorset towns. Although to get to Yeovil, whether by road or rail, means going through Sherborne, Dorset. Guess if I'm in the car I'll have to keep the windows wound up!

Then there's Wiltshire, just up the A357/A303 from Templecombe. I had booked a timed entry to Stourhead for a Boxing Day dog walk around the lake and gardens. Thankfully no charge as I'm an NT member. I can no longer make that visit thanks to the Moonrakers staying in Tier 2. Wurzels like me are no longer welcome!

Another interesting anomaly is I could theoretically drive across Dorset for a nice dog walk in the New Forest, which, like Somerset, is in Tier 3. Yet someone who lives in Dorset or Hampshire, outside the New Forest, cannot visit because they are in different tiers, Dorset 2, most of Hampshire 4.

The perils of living in border country.  ::)


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: bobm on December 23, 2020, 19:19:14
Bit like that in Swindon - Tier 4 to the right and Tier 2 to the left.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: JayMac on December 23, 2020, 19:25:43
Tier 4 to the right and Tier 2 to the left.

Isn't that a lyric from 'Stuck in the Middle with You' by Stealers Wheel?


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 23, 2020, 19:27:30
Bit like that in Swindon - Tier 4 to the right and Tier 2 to the left.

Wessex seems to be dappled, brindle or striped depending if you're using horses, greyhounds or zebras as your comparator.   I am trying to make sense of the crossborder rules - hopefully before the borders change again in another week.

Edit - correcting quoting


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: PhilWakely on December 23, 2020, 19:30:27
If you put a BaNES postcode into the gov.uk site for 'What tier am I in, it shows as Tier 2 and not changing. If you put a (say) Clevedon or Templecombe postcode into the same page, it tells you that the tier is changing soon. So, you can safely assume that BaNES will remain as Tier 2

That should have read ....."will remain as Tier 2 until Boris and Matt finally agree to lock down the whole country early in the New Year"   :(


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 23, 2020, 21:46:41
If you put a BaNES postcode into the gov.uk site for 'What tier am I in, it shows as Tier 2 and not changing. If you put a (say) Clevedon or Templecombe postcode into the same page, it tells you that the tier is changing soon. So, you can safely assume that BaNES will remain as Tier 2

That should have read ....."will remain as Tier 2 until Boris and Matt finally agree to lock down the whole country early in the New Year"   :(

.....and the sooner that happens, the better.


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: CyclingSid on December 24, 2020, 06:49:04
All you need is a few South Africans, or cricketers? and you are in Tier 4


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: grahame on December 24, 2020, 15:09:16
New tiers overplayed over disruption map (this map will change over time)

(http://new.passenger.chat/map/_CABHABBAAA.jpg)

and here is the "control" - as it was when I posted the page

(http://www.wellho.net/pix/azat202012241500.jpg)


Title: Re: Travel advice - Christmas and tiers ... from 19.12.2020
Post by: TaplowGreen on December 24, 2020, 16:41:44
Dear God - what's happened to Wales? Has it sunk?  :D



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